Data Spy! - Ness Matchup Directory

[Lukingordex]

no idea
0
+1
0
-1
0
0
+1
0 (This rating has absolutely nothing to do with Ness being gimped early or not, just saying)
+2
+1
-1

 

[MintyBreeze]

no idea

To really judge the MU against the Brawler, I'd suggest that some people link up friend codes with some mains from the Brawler Boards.

Not only would they definitely appreciate the practice that comes from actually being able to play online with someone, I'm fairly sure that any of the primary Mii mains would be very good players. I mean, if they're that dedicated for a character that can't even get online? I'm sure they put in a lot of effort just to stay well practiced. I'd encourage the same for the other Mii boards, as well, as they're probably the least exposed boards of any character.

 

[Lukingordex]

I would be happy to play against mii brawler mains online but unfortunately I only have a 3ds and playing on a 3ds sucks

 

[Luco]

Wait, you'd consider a -1? That's very curious to me, seeing as how we went even with Olimar in Brawl. :o

In other words, I'm wondering what changed to make the MU a -1?

 

[MintyBreeze]

I would be happy to play against mii brawler mains online but unfortunately I only have a 3ds and playing on a 3ds sucks

True... If I find someone who's a Brawler main, I'll let you know.

 

[Noa.]

I get the impression that we win the Olimar matchup. Ness has lots of tools to deal with Myran.

And we aren't doing the next 12 characters for a while. I feel like doing it this early would be so inaccurate. So few people have played agains the majority of the next 12 characters.

 

[Pazx]

BETTER LATE THAN NEVER RIGHT

Here's what I agree with (and you can consider these my votes if you're still counting)

Diddy: 0
Sheik: -1
Sonic: -1
Fox: 0
Rosa: -1
Yoshi: 0

But I'd like the following to be discussed. I think all of these matchups might be worse than the average of votes indicates. What do we have over these characters that is matchup specific when 4 of them are arguably better overall characters than Ness? These numbers are not my votes, they're what we've got down currently.

Falcon: +1
Mario: +1
Luigi: 0
ZSS: +1
Pika: +1

~~~~~~

I have far more experience with the next set of characters so I'll contribute more when we move on.

edit: cool picture noa

 

[MintyBreeze]

In the meantime, how about we try to chat with some Mii Brawlers from their boards, first, and potentially link up FCs? They're undeniably the least played characters in the next dozen to review, so getting data for the MU now and early would help everyone in the future.

Sure, it may not be a common MU to go against a Mii... But it should be! With these MU threads, everyone should be trying to help the progress of the game firstly and their character secondly, and if that means helping an enemy with a MU, then that should be fine.

 

[Pazx]

Is this also our general matchup discussion thread? I know we used to have a "difficult matchups" thread of some sort, but I rarely check anything other than the social here and it appears to be buried. If this discussion is better suited some other place let me know and I'll move it, I guess.

~~~ MII BRAWLER ~~~

... is potentially the most limited, one-dimensional "top tier" character ever. Top players (Dabuz, Jtails, DaPuffster) agree, this character simply isn't that good. General stuff to remember when vsing Mii Brawler is to not go near the ledge, not shield near the ledge (unless he just used feint jump), learn to DI down throw (up and behind). The character also seems pretty safe to airdodge out of combos against, his aerials are just slightly too weak and attempting to catch an airdodge with helicopter kick is incredibly telegraphed. He can't get kill confirms after about 60% so you're basically left facing a character with incredible mobility but no way to kill you until 150% and that is not at all scary. I've used this character multiple times in tournament, he's pretty much a gimmick (although I hate to use that word) that only works when your opponent messes up or doesn't know the matchup. If you respect his kill confirms he becomes Mario with mobility stats turned up to 11 but a moveset that is 90% garbage. I think Mii Brawler loses to almost every perceived "top" or "high" tier character. As Ness, the biggest thing to watch out for is being overly reliant on grabs.

 

[Luco]

Happy for them to be discussed, but it's worth mentioning that being a better character overall =/= winning the MU. Olimar was an odd 25 spots above Ness in Brawl's tier list, but that MU was even.

 

[PKBeam]

Happy for them to be discussed, but it's worth mentioning that being a better character overall =/= winning the MU. Olimar was an odd 25 spots above Ness in Brawl's tier list, but that MU was even.

i think this is the one thing we should really try to avoid.
i remember in brawl when it seemed like some people just argued matchups using tier position.

now that we're decent for once we shouldn't make the same mistakes that the other high tiers made.

 

[yoshi8984]

Mii Brawler: No idea
Villager: -1 (and probably my most boring MU lol)
ROB: 0
Pac-Man: No idea (have yet to face one)
Mega Man: -2
Peach: +1
Wario: No idea (haven't faced one that isn't a bike spammer -__-)
MK: +1
Greninja: +1
Lucario: +1
Pit: +1
Olimar: 0

I'll give a decent write-up on MUs where I have a fair amount of experience lol.

==

Villager zones us out really well and I find practically everything about him stupid lol. His campy game is stupid (slingshots and Lloid), the power on his tree growing is stupid, his tree is stupid, the fact he has time to Pocket it if we reflect it is stupid, his OP recovery is super stupid, then the bowling ball and Pocket gimps are really stupid.
Ness can actually get around the Lloids so that we aren't forced in mid-air for him to slingshot us though; PK Fire is an option and we can bat it if we wanted. Also anytime you see him riding the Lloid, BAT the damn thing. If he doesn't react quick enough he'll either die from going into the blastzone or the Lloid explodes on him and will likely KO him lol.

Also, we really don't care what projectile of ours he Pockets as long as it's not a PK Thunder as we recover. Send out a PKT? That's really easy healing for us or we can bat it back for a KO move. PK Fire? Either heal or even if we get hit it's pretty easy to escape. He can't Pocket PK Flash either lol. I usually throw out PKT in neutral and they tend to Pocket it. Now I can either heal from it or they just take PKT damage, and choosing to hold onto it in fear of healing us means they can't Pocket gimp us.

In the air is a problem against Villager, since his aerials trade better than ours. He has a Frame 2 Nair (more silliness), and the slingshots and his turnips that pose an issue for us. Something I found interesting though, I DID reflect a close-up Fair at the very ledge that KO'd at about 70% in tourney friendlies (sadly no video lol). Might be worth noting! Not sure what I can say about the aerial game here, any of you Nesses mind helping?

==

Mega Man is a pretty annoying MU. He conditions and zones us REALLY well, and so we're forced to approach, but he can disrupt our flow VERY easily. All his absorbable projectiles are usually not even worth trying to heal from, since he conditions us really well as I aforementioned. For instance, the Crash Bomb is set on us. Now, we could get away from him and try to heal from it (it explodes in about 3 seconds), but that's a measly 1% heal and he can fire a Metal Blade for us in the meantime. We could try to pass it to him, but again, more Metal Blades or we get hit by a Bair. Shielding it can get us grabbed, which adds to more frustration. Also, the Metal Blades can be SUPER confusing since he can throw them in any of the 8 cardinal directions, and one of the things I couldn't get around was that he would run from me but fire it backwards as he was running, or just right into the ground. Mega Man's aerials are no joke either due to their disjoints, and you'll find yourself taking lemons the moment you get close. I would also suggest to not be above Mega Man either since U-Smash and D-Smash are very deadly.

Frankly I'm not too sure how to get in, but you can get good damage once you get the ball rolling with PKF, Nair and grabs. Also it should be noted that his recovery does no damage, so we can take advantage of that.

(Again Nesses, please help me lol)

==

Peach is a fun and a rather interesting MU. She loves her Turnips and her float game can cause some serious baits. Many Peaches get a Turnip in hand and then they proceed to come at you with Dairs to start combos. However, Peach has a weakness to horizontal pressure, and our Fair is just handy for that! She has little horizontal protection (Nair and Bair are short ranged), while her Fair is kind of slow (but don't trade Fairs!) and moves slowly herself. We can also weave in and out with our own Nair.

Like always, if you're above her, don't be. Her Uair hits twice and can KO decently, while Parasol is also an overlooked finisher. We also need to watch out for Turnip baits, so don't always airdodge if you see a turnip or her coming your way. A common thing I do as Peach (I do use her) is that I throw a Turnip upward then expect the airdodge and then cover it with the U-Smash. Also with edgeguarding, most Peaches tend to throw it up past the ledge or Z-Drop it, then jump again to Fair for a finisher. However, we can KO her way easier then she can KO us, since she's really light and usually when you Fair her you tend to knock her out of the float, AND tailwhipping works wonders against Peach. I tend to net the KO with Uairs or Bairs, but our famous B-Throw does just as well.

Some other quirks I should mention are that her Peach Bomber is a good tech chase tool and is usually safe on shield. Her grab range is kinda lame, but her B-Throw can KO at a decent % as well, and she can do D-Throw > U-Tilt/F-Tilt/Bair/Uair. And oddly, reflecting a turnip or catching one can kind of open up some strings for us, so it might be worth using an F-Smash from time to time. Speaking of that, if you see the Toad, F-Smash it; you hit her with it AND reflect the Spores. Finally, she can pull up a Bob-Omb or a Mr. Saturn; we can absorb the former now and the latter breaks shields, so don't shield if you see the Mr. Saturn lol.

==

Yeah I got nothing else to say on the other MUs, but question for Olimar - what is the best way to get rid of Pikmin? I wish Nair would do again but it doesn't always do so and I don't like staling our Uair. Or is it the only practical choice?

 

[Noa.]

Ok so if everyone is content with how the matchup chart ended up, I'll put it in the OP. We can just make this a general matchups discussion thread.

It would be nice to start having focused matchup discussions again. I'd rather export each discussion out into a thread though, and not have them in this thread. Makes it a lot easier to keep track of each discussion and its posts.

I was thinking that every OP would be formatted to have a writeup for the matchup. That would help a lot so that after we discuss a matchup we have somewhere quick and easy to point to for advice.

Writeups are awesome. I'm aiming for something like the writeups in this thread:

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-impact-site-now-with-pictures.269590/

Each exported matchup thread would have a writeup in the OP that we made after the discussion is done. And we can revise the writeup in the future after we come back to the matchup. I would want the writeups to be a bit more strucutred and homogenized though. I was thinking of using this kind of format for each writeup:

Character name

Matchup Ratio:

Cute quote:

Neutral:

Important moves to deal with in Neutral:

Matchup mentality:

Advantage:

How to combo:

How to juggle:

How to edgeguard:

Disadvantage:

How to recover:

How to land:

Best Stages:

Worst Stages:

Link to discussion threads

Useful quotes

Videos

Frame data

Weight differences, mobility differences

bthrow kill percent

Their important kill moves and percents

The order of those topics is probably not correct. But you get the gist. I can't think of anything else that would be left out.

So far we've discussed these matchups as a board:

Rosalina
Sonic
Diddy
Sheik

And I think that's all so far.

So the next step would be writing a matchup analysis of those four matchups using the posts from the discussions we had previously, and then deciding on the next character to discuss.

 

[Lukingordex]

Wait, you'd consider a -1? That's very curious to me, seeing as how we went even with Olimar in Brawl. :o

In other words, I'm wondering what changed to make the MU a -1?

To be honest I never agreed with that MU being even in brawl in the first place, I personally think it's also a -1 there.

I'd say in smash 4 a even rating is definitely debatable because Ness is better overall. However, Olimar is still a very good character, he's one of the most underrated character in this game imo. He has kill moves, he has a good neutral game, and he has his pikmins to give Ness a hard time approaching. Also remember that we lost our Dair which was a very good tool against Olimar's camping game. I remember seeing videos of Shaky or FOW (I can't remember which player it was) jumping and them using Dair to approach and hitting Olimar's face a couple of times, avoiding the pikmin wall.

 

[MintyBreeze]

@Noa, what do you mean when you want to export each discussion to a separate thread? Discussions about different characters would go into specific threads for that MU?

Either way, I support the idea of having write-ups for each character anyways. Like the Ganon Boards and how they evaluate matches, except with more of a community focus. This way, discussion could continue even if an OP had to attend to something more important, (say, carpel tunnel from Smash Bros) and when they came back, they'd have more material to add to their own thoughts.

 

[Earthbound360]

Mii Brawler: No idea
Villager: -1 (and probably my most boring MU lol)
ROB: 0
Pac-Man: No idea (have yet to face one)
Mega Man: -2
Peach: +1
Wario: No idea (haven't faced one that isn't a bike spammer -__-)
MK: +1
Greninja: +1
Lucario: +1
Pit: +1
Olimar: 0

I'll give a decent write-up on MUs where I have a fair amount of experience lol.

==

Villager zones us out really well and I find practically everything about him stupid lol. His campy game is stupid (slingshots and Lloid), the power on his tree growing is stupid, his tree is stupid, the fact he has time to Pocket it if we reflect it is stupid, his OP recovery is super stupid, then the bowling ball and Pocket gimps are really stupid.
Ness can actually get around the Lloids so that we aren't forced in mid-air for him to slingshot us though; PK Fire is an option and we can bat it if we wanted. Also anytime you see him riding the Lloid, BAT the damn thing. If he doesn't react quick enough he'll either die from going into the blastzone or the Lloid explodes on him and will likely KO him lol.

Also, we really don't care what projectile of ours he Pockets as long as it's not a PK Thunder as we recover. Send out a PKT? That's really easy healing for us or we can bat it back for a KO move. PK Fire? Either heal or even if we get hit it's pretty easy to escape. He can't Pocket PK Flash either lol. I usually throw out PKT in neutral and they tend to Pocket it. Now I can either heal from it or they just take PKT damage, and choosing to hold onto it in fear of healing us means they can't Pocket gimp us.

In the air is a problem against Villager, since his aerials trade better than ours. He has a Frame 2 Nair (more silliness), and the slingshots and his turnips that pose an issue for us. Something I found interesting though, I DID reflect a close-up Fair at the very ledge that KO'd at about 70% in tourney friendlies (sadly no video lol). Might be worth noting! Not sure what I can say about the aerial game here, any of you Nesses mind helping?

==

Mega Man is a pretty annoying MU. He conditions and zones us REALLY well, and so we're forced to approach, but he can disrupt our flow VERY easily. All his absorbable projectiles are usually not even worth trying to heal from, since he conditions us really well as I aforementioned. For instance, the Crash Bomb is set on us. Now, we could get away from him and try to heal from it (it explodes in about 3 seconds), but that's a measly 1% heal and he can fire a Metal Blade for us in the meantime. We could try to pass it to him, but again, more Metal Blades or we get hit by a Bair. Shielding it can get us grabbed, which adds to more frustration. Also, the Metal Blades can be SUPER confusing since he can throw them in any of the 8 cardinal directions, and one of the things I couldn't get around was that he would run from me but fire it backwards as he was running, or just right into the ground. Mega Man's aerials are no joke either due to their disjoints, and you'll find yourself taking lemons the moment you get close. I would also suggest to not be above Mega Man either since U-Smash and D-Smash are very deadly.

Frankly I'm not too sure how to get in, but you can get good damage once you get the ball rolling with PKF, Nair and grabs. Also it should be noted that his recovery does no damage, so we can take advantage of that.

(Again Nesses, please help me lol)

==

Peach is a fun and a rather interesting MU. She loves her Turnips and her float game can cause some serious baits. Many Peaches get a Turnip in hand and then they proceed to come at you with Dairs to start combos. However, Peach has a weakness to horizontal pressure, and our Fair is just handy for that! She has little horizontal protection (Nair and Bair are short ranged), while her Fair is kind of slow (but don't trade Fairs!) and moves slowly herself. We can also weave in and out with our own Nair.

Like always, if you're above her, don't be. Her Uair hits twice and can KO decently, while Parasol is also an overlooked finisher. We also need to watch out for Turnip baits, so don't always airdodge if you see a turnip or her coming your way. A common thing I do as Peach (I do use her) is that I throw a Turnip upward then expect the airdodge and then cover it with the U-Smash. Also with edgeguarding, most Peaches tend to throw it up past the ledge or Z-Drop it, then jump again to Fair for a finisher. However, we can KO her way easier then she can KO us, since she's really light and usually when you Fair her you tend to knock her out of the float, AND tailwhipping works wonders against Peach. I tend to net the KO with Uairs or Bairs, but our famous B-Throw does just as well.

Some other quirks I should mention are that her Peach Bomber is a good tech chase tool and is usually safe on shield. Her grab range is kinda lame, but her B-Throw can KO at a decent % as well, and she can do D-Throw > U-Tilt/F-Tilt/Bair/Uair. And oddly, reflecting a turnip or catching one can kind of open up some strings for us, so it might be worth using an F-Smash from time to time. Speaking of that, if you see the Toad, F-Smash it; you hit her with it AND reflect the Spores. Finally, she can pull up a Bob-Omb or a Mr. Saturn; we can absorb the former now and the latter breaks shields, so don't shield if you see the Mr. Saturn lol.

==

Yeah I got nothing else to say on the other MUs, but question for Olimar - what is the best way to get rid of Pikmin? I wish Nair would do again but it doesn't always do so and I don't like staling our Uair. Or is it the only practical choice?

It sounds like you're having trouble with projectile characters in general. Against them, be sure to apply a patient approach when going after them, powershielding projectiles between dashes. Against Villager, your nair beats his slingshots. Don't give the Loid rocket too much respect; it doesn't have a hitbox until way after it's deployed. Turnips are hard to beat, but not hard to punish. And don't get roll happy against Villagers. I personally roll very rarely because I don't want to get bowling balled or tree'd. As long as you don't do those two things, you're under much less of a threat to those moves. And respect the tree. Don't try any funny **** with that move unless you wanna die at 2%. No spot dodging it, rolling around it, or batting it. Nair can be outrange, or at least have a positive trade with our own nair. Utilt should anti-air it too. And make sure you don't face Villager near the edge at high percents unless you want to get bthrown. When it comes to edgeguarding, just don't risk too much. He can cover his recovery with a projectile, and cover that projectile with another projectile. You're best off just letting him back to the ledge and reading his getup option. Villager is actually quite manageable once you figure out all his keepaway shenanigans.

For MM, it's a bit tougher IMO. His aerials are huge, so we can't just say "beat him in the air" like we do with most of our matchups. Getting in on him is indeed hard, and you can't even just run in and shield projectiles due to how quickly he can fire them. However, even with all of this, we outdamage him by a significant margin. Learn how to catch metal blades, and read the MM player's lemon patterns. There's always a way around, but you've gotta really analyze it. Once you think you've found a safe path in, do NOT immediately attack. MM players often bait aggressive approaches like this and punish you for it. Make sure you've got a good read and understand his reactions before you rush in. This whole matchup is a game of cat and mouse where MM wants to keep you out because you do more damage than him. Just make sure you really make him pay once you're in.

I've only played Logic's Olimar last night, and I think it's a manageable matchup. Just make sure you know what's punishable and what's not. I got bodied the first game because I was trying to punish fsmashes. Uair seemed to be the best tool for getting Pikmin off of me.

 

[MintyBreeze]

==

Mega Man is a pretty annoying MU. He conditions and zones us REALLY well, and so we're forced to approach, but he can disrupt our flow VERY easily. All his absorbable projectiles are usually not even worth trying to heal from, since he conditions us really well as I aforementioned. For instance, the Crash Bomb is set on us. Now, we could get away from him and try to heal from it (it explodes in about 3 seconds), but that's a measly 1% heal and he can fire a Metal Blade for us in the meantime. We could try to pass it to him, but again, more Metal Blades or we get hit by a Bair. Shielding it can get us grabbed, which adds to more frustration. Also, the Metal Blades can be SUPER confusing since he can throw them in any of the 8 cardinal directions, and one of the things I couldn't get around was that he would run from me but fire it backwards as he was running, or just right into the ground. Mega Man's aerials are no joke either due to their disjoints, and you'll find yourself taking lemons the moment you get close. I would also suggest to not be above Mega Man either since U-Smash and D-Smash are very deadly.

Frankly I'm not too sure how to get in, but you can get good damage once you get the ball rolling with PKF, Nair and grabs. Also it should be noted that his recovery does no damage, so we can take advantage of that.

(Again Nesses, please help me lol)

==

Perhaps this won't help as much as you'd like it to, but I recently found a player that pretty much ONLY plays Megaman. He's making a series of videos about how to counter annoying players, and Ness is in there. Seemed like you could find something useful in there, as this is a very good Megaman. (Warning though, he's fairly vulgar.)

I'd recommend trying to approach from the side with your aerials, maybe with Side-B. Besides Metal Blade, Megaman doesn't seem to have attacks with diagonal hitboxes. Just be very, very careful of his Down-Smash, as it seems to reach a fair distance above him.

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

How does Ness do vs Sonic after the patch? Who wins the matchup and by how much?

 

[Luco]

Sonic is still considered by the vast majority of Ness mains to be our worst MU and our only true -2. The Bthrow nerf certainly helps and means we have a decent advantage in terms of survivability/rage/what-have-you but Sonic is just too mobile for us as a general rule of thumb. Some Ness mains believe he is -1 though and there is some merit to the idea, but I lean towards -2 at this stage.

 

[MintyBreeze]

In that case, he would be the only character to legitimately consider picking a secondary for, then? If a MU is -2 or more for Ness, I think potential counterpicks should be suggested as well.

 

[Lukingordex]

I use Yoshi against Sonic, not the best option imo since I believe it's 45-55 in Sonic's favor but it's a lot more manageable than Ness vs Sonic.

You could use Sheik, Rosalina or Luigi which does well against Sonic if i'm not mistaken

 

[Earthbound360]

I'm still fixed on Sonic being -2.

Also, after playing an old MM friend of mine, after months of improvement on both of our sides, I can reaffirm that MM is a quite even matchup, a couple of points perhaps in his favor, but not enough to matter. I highly recommend you learn to PK Jump for this matchup. PK Jump sweetspots at MM's footsie range.

 

[NorCal_DSS]

Just saw your tag, @ Noa. Haven't been on for a few weeks.

Going to just list some characters I believe are top 10, and rank match-up by my experience with top-players of each character (if applicable).

Sheik (Trevonte, Zex): -1.5
Rosa (Falln): -2
Luigi (This mu is dumb; doesn't matter whom the luigi is): -2.5
Sonic (Arikie, 6WX): -1
Pikachu (Nitro): +0
Diddy (1UP | X): +1
Villager: -1
Fox (Villain, Choice): +0
ZSS: +.5

Ness has a lot of trouble with the top 3 characters in the game. However, picking your spots to attack + rage make-up for it and allow the MU's to be winnable.

 

[Noa.]

It's interesting that all of the top performing Nesses hate the Luigi matchup. And all of the other Nesses think its even.

He'll probably be considered to be a bad matchup for us in the future.

Thanks for your opinion @ NorCal_DSS .

But yeah making a new thread for each matchup that we want to discuss in a focused manner would be very nice.

Which character should we do next?

 

[MintyBreeze]

Why not get Mega Man out of the way first? It seems like most people agree that, if not the worst, he's one of the worst MUs in the next dozen characters to judge, and fairly popular as well. Get the tough ones out of the way first, you know?

 

[Noa.]

I feel like doing Luigi next would be useful. He's so popular.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Hmmm... While Luigi isn't quite as popular as Mario in this game, he would probably be a better first choice than Mega Man, I guess.

 

[RenoInMO]

Hoping we can get some Shulk discussion in here. One of my friends is learning Shulk, and I generally beat him, but he's newer to the game than I am, so I have a feeling that's what's it, but would love to hear other users' opinion on the MU.

 

[Earthbound360]

Where is the proof that 90% Ness Agrees that Sonic is his worst MU. Either way, Shaky said Luigi/Rosa is his worst. and I said it, so some Ness don't agree with it. Don't put random percentages without proof. It pisses me off so ******* much.

PK Fire is a good Trade. Sure you may not take 40%, but you can take 15-20% with PK Fire in the combination of PK Thunder after he Up Bs out of it. Nair is generally safer, I agree, but good Sonic will start to predict that/already predict that. Yes Sonic can jump over PK Fire, but he won't get a 22% Spin Dash off of you.

Sonic still kills much later than Ness still. Sonic needs a Bair/FSmash/Up Smash/Uair Read around 90%-130%. All But FSmash are fairly punishable(Uair if you didn't fast fall is not punishable.)

And Honestly, I don't feel like i need to name the Sonic players that I fight. Because according to you, if I am not fighting StaticManny or 6WX, then my opinion is invalidated because I haven't fought "top players" If you said Sonic is your worst MU, how are you able to take games in tournaments against 6wx?

And Yes I have fought 6wx before if that answers your question. I still believe its 45:55(I said even earlier, but i changed my mind). And I am not fighting FG Sonic players as I do not go on For Glory.

Regardless, I know I can never convince you otherwise, but I was mainly giving advice on what to do in the MU and convincing it is not as bad as people say.

Almost forgot about this subthread.

Fine, 76.9%, happy?
http://smashboards.com/threads/worst-matchup.394560/
Regardless of the literal percent, notice how there's only 1 vote for every other character, while Sonic is just trumping them all.

I'm telling you, PKF in this matchup is not worth it. I wouldn't use PKF at any approaching character. That's just not how you use PKF. Any character in the game can just shield and punish it. With Sonic's amazing dash speed, it's beyond easy. With the speed that he comes at you with spin dash, and the startup time of PKF, you can't get it out in time before he hits you unless he foolishly does it full screen without baiting a reaction from you first.

If the Sonic player is being smart, uair and bair aren't that punishable. These KO moves are usually used after aerial setups where you're at a frame disadvantage. That only makes usmash relatively punishable. Ness might kill sooner, but with how slippery Sonic is (literally the hardest character to grab in the game, I have more luck grabbing Pikachu), Ness won't have as many opportunities.

I ask because it sounds to me if you find Sonics just blindly running into PKFs with their spin dash, or allowing you to tailwhip them with PKT (for like 1%...), they're not playing optimally.
Until Sonic takes a good hit to his amazing neutral and full screen punish game, this matchup will be forever a -2 for me.

 

[Brendannn]

while im not a top tournament player or the best ness by any means i do know a lot about these matchups so i'll go ahead and give my thoughts.

+1; easy to combo, just be wary of up b.
-1; hard time getting in, has tools to challenge aerials. can kill with back throw and up air relatively early though.
+1; fun times vs rob if we get in, which is pretty easy to do, but rob does have a decent zoning game against us.
0; don't have too much experience in this matchup but doesn't seem to be in anyones favor on paper.
0 or -1; with custom megaman this MU is a *****, but regular isn't too tough.
+1 or +2; better aerials, better neutral, easy combos, dies early. turnips and maybe juggling are really the only issue here.
+2; im actually very confident in this matchup. we beat wario as an aerial character and PKF is pretty safe in this matchup as well. wario's a bit heavy but other than that really easy MU imo.
0; no experience.
0; pretty decent combo game and juggle game vs greninja, hardest part is side b mashing to escape pk fire and up b gimps.
+1; down b to absorb aura sphere(or even fsmash if u feeling real), killing super early, but its still lucario and can kill us at like 30 percent which makes it a +1 mu.
+1; pit has no fast aerials to combat ours, we can absorb arrows forcing an approach, and we have a pretty decent juggle game vs pit.
0; i think this matchup is really an experience with olimar thing because his playstyle is so weird lol.

 

[MintyBreeze]

+1; fun times vs rob if we get in, which is pretty easy to do, but rob does have a decent zoning game against us.

How do you usually get in on R.O.B? (Please don't take this as me being hostile! I don't want to start anything, I just want to know. >-<)

 

[Earthbound360]

Interesting how some people are marking Villager as a -1. I don't really find him all that hard to get in on him. You've just gotta learn to not give full respect to his projectiles. Nair those slingshots, run right through the gyroid before it even has a hitbox.

Also, ROB gets eaten alive by PKF. His large hitbox, slow aerials, and lack of free escape specials leads to him getting hit by bats out of PKF very often.

 

[Brendannn]

How do you usually get in on R.O.B? (Please don't take this as me being hostile! I don't want to start anything, I just want to know. >-<)

usually just powershield his projectiles, try to get in early and don't let up pressure. first match is a pretty good example of that; although the ness player definitely looks and is more experienced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCykwgX8EMo

 

[MintyBreeze]

Also, ROB gets eaten alive by PKF. His large hitbox, slow aerials, and lack of free escape specials leads to him getting hit by bats out of PKF very often.

Well, yeah, I got destroyed by a lot of Ness mains as R.O.B when they used PK Fire on me, but that's because I didn't pressure them enough with my own projectiles. Plus, R.O.B's Side-B is a reflector! I think R.O.B outranges Ness enough to the point PK Fire isn't too much of an issue if both players use their characters to their full potential.

usually just powershield his projectiles, try to get in early and don't let up pressure. first match is a pretty good example of that; although the ness player definitely looks and is more experienced. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCykwgX8EMo

Thank you for pulling up a video! But, I'm still sketchy on it. Everyone has the potential to powershield R.O.B's projectiles. It's how a lot of Ganondorfs manage to get in on him. http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-19-ganondorf.401811/
R.O.B's aerials are slow, but his N-Air is generally amazing for spacing. Ness has good aerials too, but I don't think he has a solid way to move in on R.O.B on the ground. I think it's even. (No, but seriously, thank you for pulling up a video to demonstrate.)

 

[Pazx]

ROB getting eaten alive by PKF doesn't actually affect the matchup. IMO we always have a better option for a punish and it's only use is as a punish tool.

Virus vs DSS right now over here: http://www.twitch.tv/breakoutpresents

 

[Earthbound360]

I'm not saying it's the end all be all in the matchup, but geez does it make a difference. One good roll read or one good catch on ROB's landing (and I know ROB players land with nair a lot) and ROB will be HURTING. I highly, highly disagree that it "doesn't make a difference." PKF into fsmash is like 35% damage right there, and it's more consistent on ROB than most characters.

Also, ROB can't constantly pressure full screen with lasers due to the magnet. So gyro is his best bet. It's true that Ness will have to work to get in through gyros and long range normals with good speed, but man once he's in, it's bad for ROB.

Outside of that, ROB is just combo food, and Ness is such a good combo specialist. ROB has a really hard time getting out of Ness' combos. Off stage, ROB is also really easy to edgeguard with PKT due to his slow recovery and huge hitbox.

 

[MintyBreeze]

I'm not saying it's the end all be all in the matchup, but geez does it make a difference. One good roll read or one good catch on ROB's landing (and I know ROB players land with nair a lot) and ROB will be HURTING. I highly, highly disagree that it "doesn't make a difference." PKF into fsmash is like 35% damage right there, and it's more consistent on ROB than most characters.

PK Fire is canceled out by gyro, too, though, and the same could be said for Ness; If the R.O.B can hit them with a gyro during their roll, or keep a Ness up in the air (R.O.B is wonderful for this) then he'll be kept out well.

Also, ROB can't constantly pressure full screen with lasers due to the magnet. So gyro is his best bet. It's true that Ness will have to work to get in through gyros and long range normals with good speed, but man once he's in, it's bad for ROB.

True... But the Magnet is slow and R.O.B will conserve his lasers anyways. I think the best chance Ness has to get in is using his N-Air jussssst out of R.O.B's U-Air range. On the ground, I think the best option Ness has is probably his dash attack.

Outside of that, ROB is just combo food, and Ness is such a good combo specialist. ROB has a really hard time getting out of Ness' combos. Off stage, ROB is also really easy to edgeguard with PKT due to his slow recovery and huge hitbox.

R.O.B does have a large hitbox, but I think his range and options make up for it. It may be easy to combo him, but you have to get in range, which R.O.B is specifically designed to not let you do. Also, by off-stage, do you mean below or above? Above, yes, that would be a huge pain for any R.O.B, whether they're trying to grab the ledge or not. But below, R.O.B's Up-B is too quick to be hit by PKT.

I don't think anyone has a specific advantage in this MU, in my opinion, it's tough for both sides. R.O.B has trouble because Ness can potentially combo him into oblivion, but R.O.B is designed to protect against that in the first place.

 

[Earthbound360]

PK Fire is canceled out by gyro, too, though, and the same could be said for Ness; If the R.O.B can hit them with a gyro during their roll, or keep a Ness up in the air (R.O.B is wonderful for this) then he'll be kept out well.

I was specifically referring to PKF here. If you read a roll or landing on ROB with a PKF, that is a huge amount of damage right there for NEss because of PKF. And honestly, the damage favor is skewed towards NEss here. If I get a roll read by a ROB player, I'm eating a dsmash, usmash, or potentially a dthrow into uair. None of those hurt nearly as much as PKF into bat.
PKF being cancelled by gyro is hardly what I'd call an advantage. That might even help Ness out since it activates the PKF pillar.

True... But the Magnet is slow and R.O.B will conserve his lasers anyways. I think the best chance Ness has to get in is using his N-Air jussssst out of R.O.B's U-Air range. On the ground, I think the best option Ness has is probably his dash attack.

Magnet really isn't that slow. I find it quite easy to absorb ROB lasers due to their long startup time. Without the laser, ROB essentially only has 1 projectile to keep Ness away at full screen.

R.O.B does have a large hitbox, but I think his range and options make up for it. It may be easy to combo him, but you have to get in range, which R.O.B is specifically designed to not let you do. Also, by off-stage, do you mean below or above? Above, yes, that would be a huge pain for any R.O.B, whether they're trying to grab the ledge or not. But below, R.O.B's Up-B is too quick to be hit by PKT.

I don't think anyone has a specific advantage in this MU, in my opinion, it's tough for both sides. R.O.B has trouble because Ness can potentially combo him into oblivion, but R.O.B is designed to protect against that in the first place.

Ness has enough mobility to get in on ROB IMO. He's not the toughest keepaway character to get in on. His normals actually give me more trouble due to their range, but even those can be beaten with fairs and nairs.

I mean both. I've pestered ROB off stage many times with PKT. His UpB isn't actually that hard to hit with PKT, especially in comparison to the other quick Up B moves out there that I can STILL hit with PKT (like Mario's UpB and Dolphin Slash). The best thing he can do is try to attack the PKT and break it with uairs used in between UpB pumps, but even then you can just swing PKT around to his side.

Ness easily has this on at LEAST +1 IMO.

 

[yoshi8984]

+1; down b to absorb aura sphere(or even fsmash if u feeling real), killing super early, but its still lucario and can kill us at like 30 percent which makes it a +1 mu.

Isn't it is Side-B (Force Palm) that can be absorbed? I'm pretty sure his Smashes can't be absorbed. o.o

 

[MintyBreeze]

I was specifically referring to PKF here. If you read a roll or landing on ROB with a PKF, that is a huge amount of damage right there for NEss because of PKF. And honestly, the damage favor is skewed towards NEss here. If I get a roll read by a ROB player, I'm eating a dsmash, usmash, or potentially a dthrow into uair. None of those hurt nearly as much as PKF into bat.
PKF being cancelled by gyro is hardly what I'd call an advantage. That might even help Ness out since it activates the PKF pillar.

Besides PKF, though, how many options against R.O.B are there on the ground? Dash attack is the only other one I can think of. Yes, PKF > F-Smash does do more damage, but it's one of the few options Ness has on the ground against R.O.B. (Unless maybe you batted his gyro with F-Smash.)

R.O.B, in those situations against Ness, has more options, even if none of them deal quite as much damage. What if after getting hit by PKF, R.O.B isn't close enough to get in an F-Smash? If it fails, even if he's caught in the fire, he might be able to get out and punish the failed attack. I just don't think PKF is a reliable way to rack up damage on R.O.B... Also, R.O.B's Side-B reflects PKF. If he's close enough, he can catch Ness with the remainder of the attack. Also, how is the fire pillar being activated by gyro an advantage?

Magnet really isn't that slow. I find it quite easy to absorb ROB lasers due to their long startup time. Without the laser, ROB essentially only has 1 projectile to keep Ness away at full screen.

That doesn't mean that R.O.B doesn't have his laser, it just means he needs to use it sparingly. If you use PKT, he could hit a Ness with it, for instance, when he's off-stage. Or could potentially hit a Ness when he's using PKF... If we're assuming each character is played to their maximum potential, then a R.O.B would be more clever with their projectiles, like the one in Brandon's video was.

Ness has enough mobility to get in on ROB IMO. He's not the toughest keepaway character to get in on. His normals actually give me more trouble due to their range, but even those can be beaten with fairs and nairs.

R.O.B has about the same aerial range as Ness, except his N-Air. Yes, I know I keep mentioning it, but it's so good at keeping people out! His F-Air can also combo into itself at fair percentages, too, coming out quicker than Ness's. They both have about the same range, but R.O.B's best kill moves are all targeted against aerial players. If Ness is above R.O.B, assuming that he doesn't airdodge, the R.O.B can rack up damage on them very safely.

I mean both. I've pestered ROB off stage many times with PKT. His UpB isn't actually that hard to hit with PKT, especially in comparison to the other quick Up B moves out there that I can STILL hit with PKT (like Mario's UpB and Dolphin Slash). The best thing he can do is try to attack the PKT and break it with uairs used in between UpB pumps, but even then you can just swing PKT around to his side.

Well, it isn't enough to make too much of a difference while below stage, I don't think. That, and Ness has the potential to be hit by a gyro or laser as the R.O.B recovers. Even above, while it has the potential to be annoying while R.O.B is trying to land, he could still just go to the sides of the stage and land, most likely. Meanwhile, if Ness is trying to recover with his double jump, R.O.B's D-Air is wonderful for spiking, either of his projectiles could harass Ness... I think R.O.B has the edge in terms of harassment.

Ness easily has this on at LEAST +1 IMO.

I think the characters just even each other out too well for it to be anything but even, or slightly in either's favor. Ness can approach from the air, where R.O.B really only has one attack to keep him out if he's not above, and both characters get juggled above each other; Off-stage, R.O.B can hurt Ness much more, with his projectiles and generously ranged spike; And while I think R.O.B has an edge on the ground, because of his projectiles and variety of options, Ness can absorb the laser and punish R.O.B with PKF if timed correctly. I just don't see the edge either character has on this fight.

Maybe part of the problem comes from rating how much of an advantage each character has? Not to get off topic, but in some cases I don't think the plus and minus system works. Maybe ratios out of a hundred would be more helpful. I think this MU could be no more than 40:60 in either characters favor.