Data Spy! - Ness Matchup Directory

Seagull Joe

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Just not going to argue anymore about PKT. If it works for me, it works for me. Not going to convince anyone anyways ,especially if they refuse to try it.

Just saying though, if PKFire hits Sonic, yes, he can Up-B, but it still puts Sonic in a bad position, especially if Sonic is near the edge. Sonic risks the option of getting hit by PKT2 and PKT after the PK Fire is (almost) guaranteed. That is between 13%-18%ish damage you can do to him from a PK Fire. ofc you can't grab, oh well, you don't go for grabs on a Zelda, you do either another PK Fire or PKT on her to deal more damage. You don't go for grabs on Falcon/Greninja/Little Mac because they can Jab or in Mac's case, he can Counter. PK Thunder after the PK Fire *works*. Sure you are not doing 30-40% on Sonic, but you are doing damage. All damage counts.

Edit: You are wrong @ Seagull Joe Seagull Joe . Forgot that almost all aerials beats it lol. Actually the Tail of PKT does beat out Spin Dash.
I said grounded spin dash you dunderhead. Aerial spindash loses to anything.

:018:
 

PKBeam

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grounded spin dash should trade or lose to all (of Ness') aerials if you place them correctly.
unless it has really weird priority.
 
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Greward

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Imo rosalina is way harder than sonic. Not cause of the down B, mostly because Ness can't really do anything in neutral game.

As of sonic, Nair has a lot of success in stoping his game. It's a really frustrating matchup since Ness can't get close against Sonic and all he can do is just punish Sonic whenever he gets near, so as long as he doesn't get a lead I think it's fine. Ness has the tools to stop him and we got a superior combo and killing game.


I'm kinda late to post a list but anyways I'll do it:

Diddy: +1 (or even +2)
Sheik: -2 (mb -1 but results wise i wouldn't say so)
Captain Falcon: 0 (i'm not sure about this one so i'll say even. but i don't like it)
Mario: +1
Ness: 0
Sonic: 0 (mb it's -1, I don't find this character that hard)
Fox: 0 (he can jab combo ness for days, it's pretty bull****. otherwise we'd win)
Yoshi: -1
Luigi: -1 (mb even dunno)
Rosalina: -2
Zero Suit Samus: +1
Pikachu: +1
 

Earthbound360

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That is your problem, you are not doing anything remotely risky according to your previous posts. Dair isn't punishable on landing, yes, but that is why you punish the move BEFORE he hits the ground. Dair is incredibly predictable if you see it coming. Actually, Sonic has three options after the spring. 1. Dair to ground and run away. 2. not dair and drift to something. Those three are fairly easy to punish. You also forgot Sonic can not use an special attack after Up bing, so Sonic's option are limited greatly.

About the Risk part.

Lets saaaay you are fighting a Bowser. You shouldn't use PKT, PK Fire(Doesn't work very well in the MU), PSI Magnet, All of Ness's aerials, lets saay all of his moves besides Nair and Grab. Oh. lets scratch Nair. If you do any move that is shielded, you will get punished by OoS Up B. If you are in the fear of taking a lot of damage, you will not think about using those moves. Many moves are more useful in every MU, especially PSI Magnet(Like its useless against Sonic but good vs Ness or Mii Gunner). You got to use those moves to your advantage. PK Fire has a use of stopping Spin Dash. Nair/Fair/Bair stops Spin Dash and aerial approaches. PKT edgeguards Sonic decently(not perfect though) Even though Down Smash is frame 10, it BEATS Spin Dash. I can do this move on reaction if a Sonic Spin Dashes towards me and I am facing the other direction. I get punished if I miss, yes, but you have to take risks in this MU. Sonic's weakness is mainly killing now. You know Sonic's kill moves, Bair, Uair and Smashes kill the earliest, while around past 150% is his throws, Nair, and Fair. You are worried about losing 30%(Its 22%, just to make things clear now). Ness generally kills around 90%-120%(150% is usually the latest). These days, I have been seeing Sonic kill around 130%-150% on average. So the Sonic would have to deal 1.25x more damage than Ness in most cases. Ness has ways to deal damage to Sonic just as Sonic has ways to deal damage to Ness. Ness needs to take advantage of Sonic in the air and when Sonic is off stage. Sonic's best way to deal with Ness offstage is Springs and Bair and sometimes Dair. Using the spring is pretty safe as it can half Ness's recovery while Bair can net an early kill.

Its like Ness vs Ganondorf. Ness, as majority of Ness and Ganon mains last time I checked, they all agree Ness wins the MU. But if you screw up by doing a bad options like even Nair can be punished, Ganondorf punishes hard.

I admit it isn't AS EXTREME as Ness vs Ganondorf, but you get the point. Sonic deals more damage when punishing while Ness punishes less.
You're saying these things as if I don't know them already. I've mentioned multiple times that you can punish Sonic's dair at the end of the hitbox before landing. It's easiest done with nair. But even then, Sonic slow falling and drifting into nair or air dodge can be tricky to deal with if the Sonic is playing smart and mixing it up.
(You also mentioned 3 options and only listed 2)

It's not about risk. Don't assume I don't take risks. As a player, I actually take a lot of unnecessary risks with PKF in situations where I know other Ness' wouldn't. That doesn't change the fact that PKF is simply not a good tool against spin dash. Yes it'll stop it, but a lot of things stop a grounded spin dash. Aerials, dash attack, pivot grabs, all of which are lower risk than PKF. And why would you use PKF there anyways? It's got such little reward against Sonic with that much of a higher risk due to its lag. Nair is so much safer. Add to that the fact that Sonic can do a million things to avoid a PKF during spin dash and you have an option that's only viable against really bad Sonic players. You act like Sonic just has to commit to driving forwards with spin dash once he starts it. I mean seriously, what Sonic players are giving you this impression?

PKT really shouldn't be an option here. You can believe it's a good option if you want, but like I said, it'll only work on bad Sonic players.

The best part about Ness is his low risk and high reward options on most characters. He throws out moves and sets up combos that don't have gigantic punish opportunities and produce great damage. Sonic however, negates this by having a strong punish game, baits for days to get Ness to throw out moves, and an easy escape to Ness' normal combos. Add to that the fact that Sonic is one of the hardest characters in the game to grab, and you have a bad matchup, no matter how you slice it. 90% of Ness mains agree that this is his worst matchup.

Sonic does not have trouble killing in this game lol. Usmash kills at obscene percentages (like 90%). Fsmash is super low lag, easy enough to throw out repeatedly with no risk. Bair and uair are obvious options, and Sonic's bthrow while nerfed, is still a bviable KO option.
 

Lukingordex

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I made a post about the Yoshi vs Ness MU in the Yoshi boards:

This Match up is either even or maybe a very small advantage for Yoshi.

I also play Ness so I'll try to explain this MU in both sides:

Yoshi's strong points:
- Yoshi has better tools in neutral than Ness and wins it most of the time (most characters do anyway)
- Yoshi abuses' Ness disadvantaged state very well, specially if Ness is above him (as @GSM_Dren already stated)
- Yoshi controls the stage very well against Ness thanks to his better mobility.

Ness' strong points:
- Has better reward than Yoshi overall, specially with his combos at low %s.
- Has good kill moves and they have a easier time hitting than Yoshi's does.
- Can give some trouble with PK Thunder, but not as much as he does against other character because of Yoshi's aerial speed.

So basically, Yoshi dominates Ness most of the time, but Ness kind of balances it out by being more rewarded than Yoshi when he gets a hit and being able to land kill moves with more ease.

As for the stages, I personally like stages where the Neutral game is more of a factor, such as Final Destination, Smashville or Lylat Cruise.

Battlefield and Halberd benefits Ness more than Yoshi so I don't recommend those stages.
The MU is pretty much it imo.
 

Earthbound360

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I made a post about the Yoshi vs Ness MU in the Yoshi boards:



The MU is pretty much it imo.
You think Halberd benefits Ness over Yoshi? Yoshi is quite the vertikiller as opposed to Ness. On a stage with such a low cieling, I think this is bad for the kid.
 

Lukingordex

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That's true, but Ness also has his Uair kills and that's not the only factor this stage influences.

The stage also helps Ness in the sense that it makes Yoshi's dominance on neutral against Ness not as strong as it tends to be in other stages, thanks to the patforms, especially in the first transformation.
 
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Luco

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Yeah I more or less agree with that. Yoshi really wins neutral in this game, forcing us to approach and is mobile enough to punish us when we do. On the other hand, we're good at punishing mistakes in footsies ourselves and our reward is so much better, plus our kill options are (as always) top notch against the dino.

It's just he's annoyingly heavy. I tend to put the MU down as even but I could see it being slightly in Yoshi's favour, I think the proverbial straw that might just tip it in Yoshi's favour is his weight.
 

Waael

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So I'm interested in the opinions of some Ness mains that haven't shared yet. :)

@NorCal_DSS @neomadgic @Celestial @ Waael Waael

And of course I would love to hear the opinions of @FOW @NAKAT and @ Shaky Shaky when it comes to Ness's best and worst matchups among the most popular tournament characters.
IM SO SORRY, ive been gone because of school, Finals are in a week too. Ill make sure to look at this afterwards!
 

Shaky

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Diddy: +0.5
Sheik: -1
Captain Falcon: +0.5
Mario: 0
Ness: 0
Sonic: -0.5
Fox: 0
Yoshi: 0
Luigi: -1.5
Rosalina: -1.5
Zero Suit Samus: +0.5
Pikachu: +0.5

The 0.5s indicate that I think the matchup can go 0.5 points in either direction depending on customs and individual playstyles.
 
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Lukingordex

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Honestly I don't see how the Sonic matchup can be considered even.

To me it sounds like a -2 or at best a -1.

It doesn't matter if our aerials beats spindash or not when all he needs to do is abuse our bad neutral game and play safe by abusing his speed with no risk of being hit because we don't have range to catch him.

Sonic just happens to be a character that's very good at abusing Ness' biggest weakness.
 
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PKBeam

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Some of these numbers do seem pretty controversial.
I think all of us would benefit if the numbers were explained.
 

Earthbound360

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Honestly I don't see how the Sonic matchup can be considered even.

To me it sounds like a -2 or at best a -1.

It doesn't matter if our aerials beats spindash or not when all he needs to do is abuse our bad neutral game and play safe by abusing his speed with no risk of being hit because we don't have range to catch him.

Sonic just happens to be a character that's very good at abusing Ness' biggest weakness.
Yeah, I agree with this. Ness doesn't have a very good neutral game (heck, I think it's one of his biggest weaknesses), and Sonic has neutral game for days.

Shaky has always had these unorthodox ratios for matchups, even in the Brawl days :p
Don't get me wrong, I greatly respect you Shaky and recognize you as one of Ness' best reps. Shaky is either a matchup hipster, or is so good that he sees matchups on a whole different level that we can't perceive lol.
 

Kodystri

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You're saying these things as if I don't know them already. I've mentioned multiple times that you can punish Sonic's dair at the end of the hitbox before landing. It's easiest done with nair. But even then, Sonic slow falling and drifting into nair or air dodge can be tricky to deal with if the Sonic is playing smart and mixing it up.
(You also mentioned 3 options and only listed 2)

It's not about risk. Don't assume I don't take risks. As a player, I actually take a lot of unnecessary risks with PKF in situations where I know other Ness' wouldn't. That doesn't change the fact that PKF is simply not a good tool against spin dash. Yes it'll stop it, but a lot of things stop a grounded spin dash. Aerials, dash attack, pivot grabs, all of which are lower risk than PKF. And why would you use PKF there anyways? It's got such little reward against Sonic with that much of a higher risk due to its lag. Nair is so much safer. Add to that the fact that Sonic can do a million things to avoid a PKF during spin dash and you have an option that's only viable against really bad Sonic players. You act like Sonic just has to commit to driving forwards with spin dash once he starts it. I mean seriously, what Sonic players are giving you this impression?

PKT really shouldn't be an option here. You can believe it's a good option if you want, but like I said, it'll only work on bad Sonic players.

The best part about Ness is his low risk and high reward options on most characters. He throws out moves and sets up combos that don't have gigantic punish opportunities and produce great damage. Sonic however, negates this by having a strong punish game, baits for days to get Ness to throw out moves, and an easy escape to Ness' normal combos. Add to that the fact that Sonic is one of the hardest characters in the game to grab, and you have a bad matchup, no matter how you slice it. 90% of Ness mains agree that this is his worst matchup.

Sonic does not have trouble killing in this game lol. Usmash kills at obscene percentages (like 90%). Fsmash is super low lag, easy enough to throw out repeatedly with no risk. Bair and uair are obvious options, and Sonic's bthrow while nerfed, is still a bviable KO option.

Where is the proof that 90% Ness Agrees that Sonic is his worst MU. Either way, Shaky said Luigi/Rosa is his worst. and I said it, so some Ness don't agree with it. Don't put random percentages without proof. It pisses me off so ******* much.

PK Fire is a good Trade. Sure you may not take 40%, but you can take 15-20% with PK Fire in the combination of PK Thunder after he Up Bs out of it. Nair is generally safer, I agree, but good Sonic will start to predict that/already predict that. Yes Sonic can jump over PK Fire, but he won't get a 22% Spin Dash off of you.

Sonic still kills much later than Ness still. Sonic needs a Bair/FSmash/Up Smash/Uair Read around 90%-130%. All But FSmash are fairly punishable(Uair if you didn't fast fall is not punishable.)

And Honestly, I don't feel like i need to name the Sonic players that I fight. Because according to you, if I am not fighting StaticManny or 6WX, then my opinion is invalidated because I haven't fought "top players" If you said Sonic is your worst MU, how are you able to take games in tournaments against 6wx?

And Yes I have fought 6wx before if that answers your question. I still believe its 45:55(I said even earlier, but i changed my mind). And I am not fighting FG Sonic players as I do not go on For Glory.

Regardless, I know I can never convince you otherwise, but I was mainly giving advice on what to do in the MU and convincing it is not as bad as people say.
 
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MintyBreeze

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I'm sorry to interrupt, but random person from the R.O.B forums (specifically, the R.O.B match up threads) speaking; Someone was thoughtful enough to come from this forum and give us tips as to options and tricks that Ness has up his sleeve.

According to him, apparently the match-up here to some is seen as very difficult; In reality, the majority of us only see it as fairly even, slightly tilted towards R.O.B. Seeing as we've looked into R.O.B's options already in that specific thread, I invite everyone to come and look into it, and discuss. This particular group of players that we have in our threads has always been open to moving to other forums and talking about character match-ups.

Whenever the R.O.B discussion happens, tell us. http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-14-ness.400056/

Edit: Oops... Misinterpretation on my part, it seems the consensus here is that the MU is even. Still, it can't hurt to share strategies.
 
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Noa.

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So @ Earthbound360 Earthbound360 and @ Kodystri Kodystri are both getting a bit heated discussing Sonic. Discussion is great but let's not get too angry at each other. You're both right and wrong. And I'll say that the majority of Nesses feel that Sonic is our worst matchup, but obviously not everyone agrees. And I wouldn't say that's insane. Even Seagull Joe doesn't agree Mik!.

@ Shaky Shaky thanks for making the list. I really appreciate it Tom. I wonder why you think the Luigi matchup is so bad for us.

And maybe if you could change those .5s into whole numbers so that it could en easier to compare. It's hard to have strong opinions and to put whole numbers instead of .5s but it would make it easier to compare to everyone else's opinion.
 

Seagull Joe

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Diddy: +0.5
Sheik: -1
Captain Falcon: +0.5
Mario: 0
Ness: 0
Sonic: -0.5
Fox: 0
Yoshi: 0
Luigi: -1.5
Rosalina: -1.5
Zero Suit Samus: +0.5
Pikachu: +0.5

The 0.5s indicate that I think the matchup can go 0.5 points in either direction depending on customs and individual playstyles.
:4sonic: wins against :4ness:. Shaky Shaky hope you're ready to play me in 4 :bee:.

Also, what did you think of :wolf: vs :ness2: in brawl ;)?

:018:
 
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Shaky

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In Brawl, Wolf had a grab release -> kill move, a bair that beat pretty much everything ness had and a shine that stopped ness' PK game (-1 or -2). In Smash4, Sonic has speed over Ness(and that is really it)... I don't see how abusing our "weak" neutral game = -2. By that logic we also lose to Falcon/Sheik/Speed Shulk by -2. Did everyone think Ness vs Sonic in Brawl was that bad too? Since technically the same logic applies to that matchup as well. If I wanted to "play to win" vs Sonic in Smash4 I would use Lucas PK Thunder (Custom) and camp him the whole game on a smashville platform.
 

Shaky

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Diddy: +1 Post-diddy patch doesn't kill early anymore which gives us more room to get the first kill and get the advantage we need.
Sheik: -1 A good Sheik can take advantage of Ness' glaring weakness vs needles (just like the rest of the cast). Almost everything else about this matchup is okay except needles and sheik's offstage game.
Captain Falcon: 0 If CF was slow this would be +1 for Ness, but his speed is annoying.
Mario: 0 Might end up -1 later in the metagame but for now I think it's even since both characters can keep up with each other.
Ness: 0
Sonic: -1 Stop blindly approaching Sonic and you will see this matchup is not -2. Also nair and fair are fairly safe if spaced correctly, no reason Sonic should be punishing your "neutral game" if you don't give him the opportunity to. I will probably play Manny in the next week so I might change my mind on this.
Fox: 0 If you don't fall for cheesy kill setups this matchup is even. (aka random running upsmashes and falling nair ->smash and jab to smash)
Yoshi: 0 Don't know enough about it but I 3-0d Denti's so doesn't look too bad.
Luigi: -1 I am scared of all Luigis and think this is -2 but objectively speaking it's probably -1 once I figure it out.
Rosalina: -2 Obvious reasons, if any of you watched FOW vs Dabuz at APEX you would know why I think it's -2. Basically FOW was doing everything right and then got gimped at 60% 4 times.
Zero Suit Samus: +0 I have played Lux and NickRiddle a lot and I think Ness might win this slightly but Nairo's play style is so different from them that it might be even if you play like Nairo so I'm just going to leave it as even for now.
Pikachu: +1 The most problematic thing in this matchup is Pika's offstage game. With heavy skull bash this matchup is probably even.
 

Noa.

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Thanks for expounding! You'll be back in FL for the summer then? Great! I hope I get to see you play against manny.

I think the sonic ness matchup is not that bad. I think it's just very difficult to learn cause you have to play against him differently than against other characters. Once you learn it I feel like it'll feel a lot easier.

You're going to CEO right shaky?
 

Shaky

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Thanks for expounding! You'll be back in FL for the summer then? Great! I hope I get to see you play against manny.

I think the sonic ness matchup is not that bad. I think it's just very difficult to learn cause you have to play against him differently than against other characters. Once you learn it I feel like it'll feel a lot easier.

You're going to CEO right shaky?

Yeah I'll be in FL for about a month and I'll be attending CEO as well.
 

Diddy Kong

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I still heavily disagree that Ness beats Diddy. I play both characters, so I know enough about both to state that Diddy definitely beats Ness. Pre-patch, none of you here where saying Diddy vs Ness would even be 50-50 cause Diddy obviously had you beat. Well, Diddy is still Diddy, an aerial combo monster with awesome mobility, projectiles and a neutral game that's insane. Yes, it's probably more even now but to say Ness > Diddy now...? :rolleyes: Just don't get ahead of yourself. Diddy only really has Sheik as a bad matchup, which is about 45-55. Ness = / = Sheik.
 

Luco

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I still heavily disagree that Ness beats Diddy. I play both characters, so I know enough about both to state that Diddy definitely beats Ness. Pre-patch, none of you here where saying Diddy vs Ness would even be 50-50 cause Diddy obviously had you beat. Well, Diddy is still Diddy, an aerial combo monster with awesome mobility, projectiles and a neutral game that's insane. Yes, it's probably more even now but to say Ness > Diddy now...? :rolleyes: Just don't get ahead of yourself. Diddy only really has Sheik as a bad matchup, which is about 45-55. Ness = / = Sheik.
Whilst I agree with you, I will say to be fair that some Ness mains pre-patch did honestly believe we could have been near even with diddy. :p
 

MintyBreeze

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Good! The Miis need all the attention they can get this early in the game... Especially since none of them are selectable in FG. >-< That's why I unfortunately forgot about them.

Swordfighter could potentially be a bit tricky for you guys. His Gale Strike, his neutral B, I think it can actually destroy a R.O.B's fully charged gyro. Not sure if it gets absorbed by PSI Magnet, but that would seriously help with his approach against a Ness, I think.
 

Noa.

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Swordfighter will not be discussed for a very very long time.

Brawler is in the next batch.

And gunner I've heard is decent but I'm more concerned with character popularity than how good characters might be.
 

MintyBreeze

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Swordfighter will not be discussed for a very very long time.

Brawler is in the next batch.

And gunner I've heard is decent but I'm more concerned with character popularity than how good characters might be.
Good. Do you guys agree with not letting Miis be in FF (For Fun) either? It seems... Weird.
 

MintyBreeze

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Oooooh... In that case, then never mind. I remember what happened the last time in Mario Kart when something like this happened. e-e
 

Shaky

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I still heavily disagree that Ness beats Diddy. I play both characters, so I know enough about both to state that Diddy definitely beats Ness. Pre-patch, none of you here where saying Diddy vs Ness would even be 50-50 cause Diddy obviously had you beat. Well, Diddy is still Diddy, an aerial combo monster with awesome mobility, projectiles and a neutral game that's insane. Yes, it's probably more even now but to say Ness > Diddy now...? :rolleyes: Just don't get ahead of yourself. Diddy only really has Sheik as a bad matchup, which is about 45-55. Ness = / = Sheik.
I can see Ness/Diddy being even, I might just be good at the matchup. Saying that Ness =/= Sheik is irrelevant since they have different matchups across the board.
 

Diddy Kong

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I can see Ness/Diddy being even, I might just be good at the matchup. Saying that Ness =/= Sheik is irrelevant since they have different matchups across the board.
Yes true, but let's just state that for Diddy, Ness is a LOT easier to handle than Sheik.
 

Noa.

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What makes me hesitate to call the Diddy matchup positive is Diddy's fair. It's not easy to get around.

But I still definitely think it's even or in our favor now.
 

Noa.

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Nah I wanted to do that in a couple months. There is no rush. I feel like most players haven't even played against the next set of 12 characters yet.

But I should get to remaking the matchup chart.
 

Noa.

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:4miibrawl:
:4villager:
:4rob:
:4pacman:
:4megaman:
:4peach:
:4wario:
:4metaknight:
:4greninja:
:4lucario:
:4pit:
:4olimar:

Are the next 12. Unless someone feels that another character should take priority over some of these characters?
 

Noa.

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Location
Orlando, Florida
Character|Shaky|Mik!|Greward|Meccs|Noa|Luco|Lukinhaas|Kodystri|Ranias|yoshi89|PKBeam|Charizord
Diddy|+1|-1|+1|+1|0|0|0|0|-1|0|0|-1
Sheik|-1|-1|-2|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1|/|-1|-1
Falcon|0|+2|0|+1|0|+1|+1|+1|0|-1|+1|+1
Mario|0|+2|+1|0|+1|+1|0|0|+1|0|+1|+1
Sonic|-1|-2|0|-2|-1|-2|-1|-1|-2|-2|-1|-2
Fox|0|0|0|+2|0|0|+1|0|+1|/|+1|0
Yoshi|0|0|-1|0|0|0|0|0|0|-1|0|+1
Luigi|-1|0|-1|+1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0
Rosalina|-2|0|-2|-1|-1|-1|-1|-2|-1|/|-1|0
ZSS|0|+1|+1|+1|+1|+1|+1|+1|+1|-1|+1|0
Pikachu|+1|+1|+1|+2|+1|0|0|0|+1|+1|0|+1

Ok so the consensus among our matchups:

Diddy: 0 ; We disagree a lot on this. This is pretty contentious.
Sheik: -1
Falcon: +1
Mario: +1
Sonic: -1 ; We've had a lot more people vote on this one since the last version. This is a very divisive matchup as well.
Fox: 0
Yoshi: 0
Luigi: 0
Rosa: -1
ZSS: +1
Pika: +1

I would seriously consider changing the Diddy and Sonic matchup ratios on the chart. The rest of it seems pretty good for now though.


I just kind of eyeballed the votes. Diddy and Sonic are obviously really close. Do you think I might have misjudged how we felt as a whole about any of the other characters?
 
Last edited:

MintyBreeze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
267
Location
Bardstown, KY
3DS FC
0361-8437-7637
Hmmm... Do you think opening a thread specifically for the Diddy and Sonic MUs, and allowing the rest of them to continue, would be a good idea? Thus, there would be no delays, and everyone with disagreements over the results could post their thoughts in the other thread.
 
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