Data Spy! - Ness Matchup Directory

[Earthbound360]

well I certainly hope we're not going to discuss characters like the Rosalina boards do, if you get what I'm saying.

I kinda wanna hear what you mean by this...

 

[Kodystri]

well I certainly hope we're not going to discuss characters like the Rosalina boards do, if you get what I'm saying.

Yes, what do you mean?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I believe he means that ratios on the Rosalina board are based solely on votes from each member whether what they said was right/wrong etc. I remember that coming up a few times when I was visiting occasionally.

 

[PKBeam]

^ yeah, pretty much this

 

[Kodystri]

Well maybe we can discuss it the MU for a while and then vote on the MU?

 

[Luco]

I mean, I'd be pretty happy to try and settle on a score with the concerned board and try to see where we most agree (and if neither side agrees, then we just say we'll come back to it later). Normally it's not that big of a fuss. I'd be happy to give it a whirl.

 

[Earthbound360]

This is how matchups with Ness go for other boards:

Does my character have a single method of gimping Ness?
7:3 our favor, easily.

Here's what our matchup chart will look like according to them:
Sheik 3:7
Jigglypuff 3:7
Mario 3:7
G&W 3:7
Villager 3:7
Greninja 3:7
Sonic 3:7
Rosalina 3:7
(Dark) Pit 3:7

etc. etc.

 

[David Viran]

This is how matchups with Ness go for other boards:

Does my character have a single method of gimping Ness?
7:3 our favor, easily.

Here's what our matchup chart will look like according to them:
Sheik 3:7
Jigglypuff 3:7
Mario 3:7
G&W 3:7
Villager 3:7
Greninja 3:7
Sonic 3:7
Rosalina 3:7
(Dark) Pit 3:7

etc. etc.

You can't trust any character board. Not even your own.

 

[Luco]

So we tell them to look at the evidence. Do top players get gimped by these methods on a regular basis? Does Ness struggle to win when these options are present? The other boards may have bias but if they're rational then they're not going to sit there and stubbornly refuse the results and evidence that occurs right in front of their eyes. On the other hand, it tempers any biases we may have, and at the end of the day if we don't engage the other character boards then these ratios come out exactly the same but on their board. And sooner or later, the peeps making the MU chart will want the Ness mains and the Rosaluma mains to come together to decide on a single ratio, for instance.

I know it can be frustrating to deal with other people, but we have to, eventually. It's been over half a year, and Ness remains potent in these match-ups. I think we can handle it, I really do.

 

[Lukingordex]

Well I don't think the Rosalina boards should be considered for the MU chart, Ness is not the only MU they gave an absurd rating. They also think Yoshi wins against Rosalina by like 70:30 lol that's absurd.

Also @ Earthbound360 Yoshi wins 70:30 against Ness bcuz he can stop pkthunder 2 by throwing an egg at Ness *jk*

 

[PKBeam]

This is how matchups with Ness go for other boards:

Does my character have a single method of gimping Ness?
7:3 our favor, easily.

Here's what our matchup chart will look like according to them:
Sheik 3:7
Jigglypuff 3:7
Mario 3:7
G&W 3:7
Villager 3:7
Greninja 3:7
Sonic 3:7
Rosalina 3:7
(Dark) Pit 3:7

etc. etc.

The Greninja's have us as 50:50, which is way more sense than I expected, considering most people just posted one line on how Greninja has a gargantuan offstage advantage and then proceed to use fallacies to argue 55:45, e.g. "Ness isn't that hard if you don't get grabbed", and "If you take away his combo game, Ness is really easy".

Although, Ness in general is just tossed round and laughed at - very few non-Ness mains can make an accurate matchup judgement, with most sharing the same aforementioned arguments from the Greninjas: the terrible recovery stuff and "Don't get grabbed and you'll be fine", which is frankly up there in the "Top 10 Dumbest Ways to Discuss an MU". I just wish they'd stop doing this.

 

[Matt ~]

Ness-Luigi matchup is definitely +1. Luigi has a hard time approaching, and Ness has the tools to keep him out.

 

[Earthbound360]

The Greninja's have us as 50:50, which is way more sense than I expected, considering most people just posted one line on how Greninja has a gargantuan offstage advantage and then proceed to use fallacies to argue 55:45, e.g. "Ness isn't that hard if you don't get grabbed", and "If you take away his combo game, Ness is really easy".

Although, Ness in general is just tossed round and laughed at - very few non-Ness mains can make an accurate matchup judgement, with most sharing the same aforementioned arguments from the Greninjas: the terrible recovery stuff and "Don't get grabbed and you'll be fine", which is frankly up there in the "Top 10 Dumbest Ways to Discuss an MU". I just wish they'd stop doing this.

Exactly. I feel like the world is so misguided on the matchup >_>
And even if they have it at 50:50 instead of 70:30 (which was a metaphoric exaggeration), they're using offstage game as a method of making the matchup seem more in their favor than it actually is. I'm pretty sure Ness has an advantage against Greninja. I've played Techei a lot of have a pretty solid opinion on this. Greninja doesn't have the pressure tools to KEEP Ness off stage to the point where he's vulnerable.

Ness-Luigi matchup is definitely +1. Luigi has a hard time approaching, and Ness has the tools to keep him out.

I highly disagree. Ness has very poor keep out tools. PKF isn't a good projectile projectile, it's a good punish and combo starter projectile only. It's even IMO, maybe even a little more in Luigi's favor.

 

[Noa.]

I also get the impression that greninja may be in our favor. But I will admit that FL doesn't have great greninja players. The best one is Akashic Sword but I haven't played against him yet.

I want to make the chart later tonight. But I'm going to a tournament so I might not get around to it. But I'll have time tomorrow for sure. I feel like we've had enough people give their input to make our first one. I'll make it easily editable so that we can change it easily. That way if someone feels staunchly opposed to one of the ratings, we could change it.

 

[Kodystri]

Yeah I think I can help out, especially,with Swordfighter and Gunner as I used both competitively

 

[Kodystri]

I am going to make a MU based on my person experiences.

Again this is my OPINION. and WITHOUT Customs.

Edit: Yes I am aware that using the +1, +2, -1, etc. But I feel more comfortable explaining this way.

: 50-50
: 55-45
: 55-45(+1)
: 60-40
: 48-52
: 63-37
: 48-52(0)
: 60-40
: 60-40
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 50-50(0)
: 65-35
: 53-47
: 53-47
: 55-45
: 60-40
: 55-45
: 63-37
: 55-45
: 60-40
: 55-45
:50-50(0)
: 52-48(0)
: 45-55
: 40-60
: ????
: 55-45
: 55-45
: 67-33
: 60-40
: 100 0 Ness always wins
: 57-43
: 60-40
: 47-53
: 50-50
: 50-50(0)
: 48-52
: 47-53(-1)
: 55-45
: 40-60(-2)
: 57-43
: 43-57(-1)
: 50-50
: 45-55(-1)
: 55-45
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 60-40
: 50-50(0)
: 55-45
: 55-45(+1)

Now for the top 12.

Diddy Kong - I rate the MU very slightly in Diddy's favor. Diddy Aerials outranges us and has better frame rate than our aerials. We do have better OoS options(Nair mainly), but Diddy can beat our aerials and faster than ours. Unlike most characters, Diddy has a hard time gimping our recovery because of his below average off stage play, so he basically has to let us back on in most cases except going for the random Fairs/Dairs to kill us. If the Diddy misses, it is usually the end of the stock. When Diddy is offstage, that is where we prevail. If the Diddy is low enough where he has to side b to grab the edge, we can easily just Down Smash him back to oblivion. If Diddy has to use his Up B, either our Nair or Tail of PKT can end the monkey's life. Because of this, Diddys will recover high. Uairs can usually catch the side B as Diddy lacks options below him, but at the same time, its really difficult to catch his Side b as he can choose to Wavebounce with Neutral B or continue on. even at times, he will be higher than us to Uair successfully. We also have an advantage when we are able to grab the banana as Back Throw is a very deadly tool. However, Diddy is not at kill range, Banana won't do much besides FThrow/UThrow/Dash Attack, or Nair. Or if Diddy is at 0%, we can do our BnB combo. You are basically tacking on 10% with each banana trip before kill range. Because of Diddys dominant aerial range and stage control, I say the MU is veery slightly in Diddy's Favor.

- I rate the MU +! in Sheiks Favor. I would rate it higher in Sheik's favor, but It may be my bias taking over that SHeik is annoying as ****. Sheik can play keep away with Needles, which forces Ness to approach, and Sheik has dominant aerials compared to Ness. Ness can barely punish with Nair and even that doesn't work. Sheiks aerials beat our Fair, which is even more annoying. The worst part, Sheik can easily gimp us compared to other characters. If sheik grabs you near the edge, you can easily be gimped.

One thing we do have an advantage is our Kill Power. Rage Ness is nothing to mess around with, and Ness gets up there vs the Sheik MU frequently. You want to avoid FD against Sheik because Needles will just be... a complete pain when combined with Ness slow run speed.

Basically in this MU, you need to make sure you use the right move at the right time and make sure it is as unpunishable as it gets.

-Most people would rate him heavily in our favor, but those guys clearly have not fought a good Falcon. Because of Ness's floatiness, Ness can easily be juggled by Falcon's Uair. This makes it extremely difficult to land vs Falcon compared to most characters. Off Stage, Falcon beats us pretty hard, Dair can easily cost us the stock while Bair can end our stock early if we are off stage. Falcon's grabs are quite annoying as Falcon's grabs beat out Nair(Somehow) and jabs. Falcon's jabs also hurts our approach as it outranges Nair(not fair though).

We do have the advantage when JUGGLING Falcon. We can chain Fairs better on Falcon better than most characters. Offstage, I beleive we do better vs Falcon than Falcon does to us. Bair, PK Fire, PK Thunder, Nair, Fair, DSmash just really hurts Falcon. Unlike the opposite, we can not gimp/kill as early as Falcon, so that is a problem.

I rate the MU slightly in our favor as it is easier to get Falcon off stage than to get Ness off stage as well as Ness's better neutral in this MU.

 

[Matt ~]

I highly disagree. Ness has very poor keep out tools. PKF isn't a good projectile projectile, it's a good punish and combo starter projectile only. It's even IMO, maybe even a little more in Luigi's favor.

I don't think you're considering things other than projectiles. Nair and fair are good approaches that can also keep Luigi out. As long as you're careful not to get grabbed, the MU shouldn't be extremely difficult. Of course, once Luigi DOES get a grab, that creates a whole lot of trouble for Ness. I feel that it's about 55:45. That's just my opinion, anyways. Haven't really faced too many good Luigis either, so I could be wrong x3

 

[Earthbound360]

I am going to make a MU based on my person experiences.

Again this is my OPINION. and WITHOUT Customs.

: 50-50
: 55-45
: 55-45
: 60-40
: 48-52
: 63-37
: 48-52
: 60-40
: 60-40
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 65-35
: 53-47
: 53-47
: 55-45
: 60-40
: 55-45
: 63-37
: 55-45
: 60-40
: 55-45
:50-50
: 52-48
: 45-55
: 40-60
: ????
: 55-45
: 55-45
: 67-33
: 60-40
: 100 0 Ness always wins
: 57-43
: 60-40
: 47-53
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 48-52
: 47-53
: 55-45
: 40-60
: 57-43
: 43-57
: 50-50
: 45-55
: 55-45
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 60-40
: 50-50
: 55-45
: 55-45

Interesting list. Good to see someone who doesn't instantly assume Bowser is a winning matchup just because he's big. I personally think he's even myself.

You think Gunner is that easy huh? Playing Gunner myself, I can see him giving Ness trouble, especially if you think Megaman does.

And you really think Sonic is easier than Rosalina and Sheik?

I don't think you're considering things other than projectiles. Nair and fair are good approaches that can also keep Luigi out. As long as you're careful not to get grabbed, the MU shouldn't be extremely difficult. Of course, once Luigi DOES get a grab, that creates a whole lot of trouble for Ness. I feel that it's about 55:45. That's just my opinion, anyways. Haven't really faced too many good Luigis either, so I could be wrong x3

I understand that, I even think Ness can beat Luigi in the air, but idk, it's not guaranteed. Luigi is no slouch in the air. Nair trades well with his fair, but I wouldn't wanna keep trading with Luigi until we're at dthrow > Cyclone percent. Fair isn't as amazing as it may seem at first, and if it trades with any aerial, you lose that trade REALLY hard. It's all just about as risky as challenging his grab game as our own.

 

[PKBeam]

didn't OP specify that we were using whole numbers?
might wanna convert those ratios, or add a whole number :/

 

[Earthbound360]

I kinda like seeing the tiny numbers. You can round it to assume the whole numbers (like ROB would just be even in his opinion), but it covers residual thoughts in between those whole numbers.

 

[Kodystri]

Interesting list. Good to see someone who doesn't instantly assume Bowser is a winning matchup just because he's big. I personally think he's even myself.

You think Gunner is that easy huh? Playing Gunner myself, I can see him giving Ness trouble, especially if you think Megaman does.

And you really think Sonic is easier than Rosalina and Sheik?



I understand that, I even think Ness can beat Luigi in the air, but idk, it's not guaranteed. Luigi is no slouch in the air. Nair trades well with his fair, but I wouldn't wanna keep trading with Luigi until we're at dthrow > Cyclone percent. Fair isn't as amazing as it may seem at first, and if it trades with any aerial, you lose that trade REALLY hard. It's all just about as risky as challenging his grab game as our own.

Yeah, I think Bowser vs Ness is even. Not an easy MU as you have to play patient or you lose a stock(LordMix taught me that LOL)

Well to answer you, I am a Gunner main myself, default and custom. I quickly realized how devasting the MU is for Gunner when fighting a competent Ness. PSI Magnet... literally, destroys Gunner's zoning Option(I am talking about default) Fair, Neutral B, Flame Pillar, just doesn't work. If you get close, Ness can just Nair at the right time or so. The Custom MU isn't so bad though. I still say its in Ness's favor. Gunner does not approach, and Gunner has below average approaching options. If Gunner didn't have ALL ENERGY based projectiles, I would say it is closer to 45:55 lol. You may argue that many character with projectiles loses to reflectors according to what I am saying, but Gunner is FAR more worse off compared to them, especially with customs off. I say this because Gunner's neutral game is terrible.

What i am trying to say, I do not see a Ness main losing to Default Gunner(1111 Default size).

I personally do use Custom Gunner(If allowed) in the Ness MU.

Well, about Sonic. I honestly thought he was by far our worst MU, but I am slowly changing my mind(I know we discussed this in the Worst MU thread where I specifically said Sonic was our worst MU), especially after the Sonic Nerf. DSmash, Nair, PK Fire, and Up Smash cleanly beats Spin Dash. and if Sonic ever decides to spin back around, its almost dying for a DSmash to eat him up(Though every Sonic plays different). You just got to predict the Sonic's pattern. Uair beats all of his options if you are below him. Nair comes out faster than all of his aerials(Correct me if I am wrong), and Fair beats out all of his aerials. Also, if Sonic decides to Up B>Down Air, Ness can usually punish that. if it happens close and you don't get hit by the spring. Off stage... i am sad to say, Ness just loses(But he usually loses off stage plays anyways). Make sure you avoid using PK Thunder, or you lose the stock as Sonic can spring you for days. Also, Sonic has a hard time killing outside of Smashes and Throws and his Bair is reactable, which makes Rage Ness, and Rage Ness is not fun to fight against.

Also if you catch Sonic in PK Fire, use PK Thunder as he will just Up B out of it.. Or if you want to predict, run where he is going to and PKT2 or Grab.(Make sure you don't get hit by spring) With just Normal PKT, you will at least tack on an extra 8 percent.

So with all of this , I believe Sonic isn't as bad as Sheik/Rosalina. Rosalina, it may be just my inability to hold my sanity in fight her, but I think she is our worst MU. Could be that I do not know the MU as i used to before(I used to beat Rosalinas fairly solidly back then until 2 months ago and even wrote an inaccurate thingy on it lol). I am not saying the gimping part, but I think she just wins the neutral game by a long shot

Edit: All of these MUs are from personal experience. I have fought all the characters except Meta Knight(Which is why I had ???) Because I am not going to say a MU is good/bad if I have never played against them before and feel the MU. Or I use the character vs Ness(Swordfighter and Gunner for that example). Because I am not the type of guy that "assumes".

Granted, I may be a bit bias or by that, i mean frustrated with a MU so it may be rated lower than it is.

 

[Noa.]

I am going to make a MU based on my person experiences.

Again this is my OPINION. and WITHOUT Customs.

Edit: Yes I am aware that using the +1, +2, -1, etc. But I feel more comfortable explaining this way.

: 50-50
: 55-45
: 55-45
: 60-40
: 48-52
: 63-37
: 48-52
: 60-40
: 60-40
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 65-35
: 53-47
: 53-47
: 55-45
: 60-40
: 55-45
: 63-37
: 55-45
: 60-40
: 55-45
:50-50
: 52-48
: 45-55
: 40-60
: ????
: 55-45
: 55-45
: 67-33
: 60-40
: 100 0 Ness always wins
: 57-43
: 60-40
: 47-53
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 48-52
: 47-53
: 55-45
: 40-60
: 57-43
: 43-57
: 50-50
: 45-55
: 55-45
: 50-50
: 50-50
: 60-40
: 50-50
: 55-45
: 55-45

Now for the top 12.

Diddy Kong - I rate the MU very slightly in Diddy's favor. Diddy Aerials outranges us and has better frame rate than our aerials. We do have better OoS options(Nair mainly), but Diddy can beat our aerials and faster than ours. Unlike most characters, Diddy has a hard time gimping our recovery because of his below average off stage play, so he basically has to let us back on in most cases except going for the random Fairs/Dairs to kill us. If the Diddy misses, it is usually the end of the stock. When Diddy is offstage, that is where we prevail. If the Diddy is low enough where he has to side b to grab the edge, we can easily just Down Smash him back to oblivion. If Diddy has to use his Up B, either our Nair or Tail of PKT can end the monkey's life. Because of this, Diddys will recover high. Uairs can usually catch the side B as Diddy lacks options below him, but at the same time, its really difficult to catch his Side b as he can choose to Wavebounce with Neutral B or continue on. even at times, he will be higher than us to Uair successfully. We also have an advantage when we are able to grab the banana as Back Throw is a very deadly tool. However, Diddy is not at kill range, Banana won't do much besides FThrow/UThrow/Dash Attack, or Nair. Or if Diddy is at 0%, we can do our BnB combo. You are basically tacking on 10% with each banana trip before kill range. Because of Diddys dominant aerial range and stage control, I say the MU is veery slightly in Diddy's Favor.

- I rate the MU +! in Sheiks Favor. I would rate it higher in Sheik's favor, but It may be my bias taking over that SHeik is annoying as ****. Sheik can play keep away with Needles, which forces Ness to approach, and Sheik has dominant aerials compared to Ness. Ness can barely punish with Nair and even that doesn't work. Sheiks aerials beat our Fair, which is even more annoying. The worst part, Sheik can easily gimp us compared to other characters. If sheik grabs you near the edge, you can easily be gimped.

One thing we do have an advantage is our Kill Power. Rage Ness is nothing to mess around with, and Ness gets up there vs the Sheik MU frequently. You want to avoid FD against Sheik because Needles will just be... a complete pain when combined with Ness slow run speed.

Basically in this MU, you need to make sure you use the right move at the right time and make sure it is as unpunishable as it gets.

-Most people would rate him heavily in our favor, but those guys clearly have not fought a good Falcon. Because of Ness's floatiness, Ness can easily be juggled by Falcon's Uair. This makes it extremely difficult to land vs Falcon compared to most characters. Off Stage, Falcon beats us pretty hard, Dair can easily cost us the stock while Bair can end our stock early if we are off stage. Falcon's grabs are quite annoying as Falcon's grabs beat out Nair(Somehow) and jabs. Falcon's jabs also hurts our approach as it outranges Nair(not fair though).

We do have the advantage when JUGGLING Falcon. We can chain Fairs better on Falcon better than most characters. Offstage, I beleive we do better vs Falcon than Falcon does to us. Bair, PK Fire, PK Thunder, Nair, Fair, DSmash just really hurts Falcon. Unlike the opposite, we can not gimp/kill as early as Falcon, so that is a problem.

I rate the MU slightly in our favor as it is easier to get Falcon off stage than to get Ness off stage as well as Ness's better neutral in this MU.

I like your opinions. They are quite nice. But I will not factor your opinion into the consensus if you don't use the small number system. You only have to do it for 12 characters. Just round your ratios. :V

I would do it for you but I don't want to assume whether you think a matchup would go up or down.

Interesting list. Good to see someone who doesn't instantly assume Bowser is a winning matchup just because he's big. I personally think he's even myself.

You think Gunner is that easy huh? Playing Gunner myself, I can see him giving Ness trouble, especially if you think Megaman does.

And you really think Sonic is easier than Rosalina and Sheik?



I understand that, I even think Ness can beat Luigi in the air, but idk, it's not guaranteed. Luigi is no slouch in the air. Nair trades well with his fair, but I wouldn't wanna keep trading with Luigi until we're at dthrow > Cyclone percent. Fair isn't as amazing as it may seem at first, and if it trades with any aerial, you lose that trade REALLY hard. It's all just about as risky as challenging his grab game as our own.

Shaky himself said that he thinks that Luigi is a bad matchup for Ness. So you might be onto something.

But I myself feel that it's a matchup that we win. Fair is so potent at walling Luigi out of the air. I don't try to trade directly with his aerials. I try to fair him before he reaches the apex of his short hop. And magnet gives us a way to not only deal with fireballs lawlessly, but to heal from them. And fair and pk Thunder are such potent edge guards against him.

I feel like most characters who don't have aerials that are disjointed or long ranged have so much trouble dealing with our fair.

 

[Earthbound360]

I really think fair is overrated in terms of holding up matchups. It just doesn't do enough damage. Sure it can beat out other aerials a good amount, but with the damage it does, if the opponent sneaks ONE aerial in for a trade, you're back to even. It really just stall the match. Also, it's surprisingly punishable on shield and on landing. Fair alone just doesn't make the Luigi matchup for me.

 

[Luco]

But remember, the thing that makes the Luigi MU different in particular is Luigi's ice slide effect. Most SH aerials are safe on block if he doesn't PS it, and Fair can't really be PS-ed unless you only hit with one hitbox of it.

 

[Noa.]

Ok so here's the matchup chart.

These were the votes that were used to make the chart:

Characters
Diddy|0|-1|0|+1|0|0|-1|0|-1
Sheik|-1|-1|-1|-1|-1||-1|-1|-1
Falcon|+1|+2|0|+1|+1|-1|0|+1|+1
Mario|+1|+2|+1|0|0|0|+1|+1|+1
Sonic|-2|-2|-1|-2|-1|-2|-2|-1|-2
Fox|0|0|0|+2|+1||+1|+1|0
Yoshi|0|0|0|0|0|-1|0|0|+1
Luigi|0|0|0|+1|0|0|0|0|0
Rosalina|-1|0|-1|-1|-1||-1|-1|0
ZSS|+1|+1|+1|+1|+1|-1|+1|+1|0
Pikachu|0|+1|+1|+2|0|+1|+1|0|+1

This does not include Kodystri's votes. I can add them in when he uses whole numbers.

This is what I think would be the consensus for all the votes:

Diddy: 0
Sheik: -1
Falcon: +1
Mario: +1
Sonic: -2
Fox: +1
Yoshi: 0
Luigi: 0
Rosalina: -1
ZSS: +1
Pikachu: +1

We're unanimous about Sheik. We're pretty much all in agreement when it comes to Yoshi, Rosa, ZSS, and Luigi.

Fox and Diddy are the matchups we agree on the least. We should probably discuss them more to be more solidified about how we feel about these matchups.

And I want to add ROB to the matchup chart, because the matchup chart would look prettier with 12 matchups ROB is actually just as relevant at Pikachu when you look at tournament results.

I know it'll be annoying to just throw him in at this point but it shouldn't be difficult enough. I'll just put it as even for now.

​

Any suggestions or feedback on the chart? This is the first draft.

 

[Earthbound360]

This chart looks like Super Smash Bros. is the spiritual successor to the Brady Bunch.

ROB is +1.

 

[Noa.]

The thought just occurred to me to also replace ROB with Ness.

Even though Smashboards rankings has ROB getting lots of results, he just seems out of place. Idk.

Maybe we should keep Rob or maybe not.

 

[Luco]

Let's chuck Ness in there for funsies. We'll do ROB with the next 12 yeah? :D

 

[Earthbound360]

Just curious, what would the next "tier" of characters look like?

I'm guessing something like Mega Man, Pac Man, ROB, Duck Hunt, and Villager.

Also, why not Brawler? ZeRo puts him in top 8.

 

[Luco]

My suggestion for the next 12 would look something like:














I'd merge and together in one bubble but I think formatting that will be difficult (I love doing it in dozens too <3 ) and I also suspect there might be a small gap between these characters and the next ones (I think in the next 12 I'll include the other characters that get great with customs like Pally and DK)

 

[Noa.]

Going purely by tournament rankings on Smashboards it would be

ROB
Villager
Megaman
Little Mac
Link
Greninja
Shulk
Kirby
DDD

Then there's a drop off after DDD to DK.

Using the rankings for characters that aren't high tier is difficult since results are a lot more influenced by individual players.

If I were to make the next set of characters I would pick

Megaman
Olimar
Greninja
Lucario
Pit
Peach
Shulk
Wario
Pac
Villager
Duck Hunt
ROB

The next set of 12 characters that are good.

And Mii Brawler is a top tier. I guess I didn't think to include him because Mii brawlers are so uncommon since people don't seem to use mii fighters. Though if customs become more popular then we'll definitely have to add him.

 

[Luco]

I love DHD but I'm not entirely sure he's as good as being right below top tier, he has too many issues killing and his unorthodox game plan gets exploited by zone breakers really hard, as well as those who negate his stuff like Rosa. He has too many bad MUs against the top tiers like Sonic, Sheik, Yoshi and probably even us to a lesser extent for me to put him in this grouping. Olimar is in a similar boat, although I did deliberate for a little longer and he could potentially go in over dark pit if we decided to slot Pit and DP into one slot.

Shulk I think is pretty decent too but I'd personally slot him into the next 12 because of a lack of results. The rest, I totally agree with. :3

 

[Noa.]

I would count pit and Dark pit the same cause I can't imagine us discussing those matchups separately.

Yeah I'd definitely switch Duck Hunt for Mii Brawler if we were just going to do 12.

And between Shulk and MK, it's like both of these characters are supposed to be good, but no one uses them. It's difficult to judge which character is more relevant.

 

[Lukingordex]

I would count pit and Dark pit the same cause I can't imagine us discussing those matchups separately.

Yeah I'd definitely switch Duck Hunt for Mii Brawler if we were just going to do 12.

And between Shulk and MK, it's like both of these characters are supposed to be good, but no one uses them. It's difficult to judge which character is more relevant.

Yeah I also agree on considering Pit and Dark Pit as just one character.

I personally have trouble against DHD with Ness, I feel like he zone us really well (just like megaman, with the difference that when DHD is offstage against us he's screwed) and wins neutral really easily, so I personally would prefer to see some discussion about him going on.

I personally think MK is a better character than Shulk overall so I would go for MK.

Also @ Earthbound360 even though I voted even for Diddy at first, I'm starting to agree with you that Diddy might be actually a -1 matchup for us, for the same reasons you stated.

 

[Kodystri]

I fixed it.

 

[Noa.]

All right thanks.

With Kodystri's vote we definitely need to discuss the Fox matchup more.

That's five votes for 0, three votes for +1, and one vote for +2.

I personally think it's a very even matchup. Fox gets a lot of free damage on us because of his silly jab. It's quite terrifying. Not being able to use pk Thunder to juggle him is not very good for us. We rely on it so heavily to get lots of free damage.

I just really want to know why people think we have an advantage over Fox. In what way do we destroy him? I don't think his recovery is that exploitable. It's easy for us to hit him with pk Thunder but outright gimping fire fox is hard I feel. If he recovers low than it's really hard to hit bair, or uair. And I don't think nair's hitbox is big enough at he bottom to reliably hit it either.

 

[Lukingordex]

Well I have to confess that I don't have much Fox match up experience, but my +1 rating is mostly because he gets combo'ed hard and dies kinda early. Also he doesn't seens to win against Ness in neutral consistently.

 

[Luco]

Relevant: @ Villyness pulled out her Ness against Atyeo's fox in GFs of BAM and won it, so once those sets get uploaded I think they'd be a great source of information. I tagged V here too in case she wanted to share her thoughts on it as well. =)

 

[Villyness]

I don't think my Ness is good, but I hope the sets will help everyone.

Atm idk who's uploading them, but if it's not up by today I'll do it myself.

Edit: Just found it. Ness games start at 4:00. I'm not sure how helpful this will be cause I haven't touched Ness in awhile but I hope it does help in some way.

https://youtu.be/jO1vPSzZaWo

 

[PKBeam]

outright gimping fire fox is hard I feel. If he recovers low than it's really hard to hit bair, or uair. And I don't think nair's hitbox is big enough at he bottom to reliably hit it either.

is it really that hard to hit with Bair? even so, can't you PKF it?
I honestly don't think it's that hard. Nair would probably trade with it.