Data Spy! - Ness Matchup Directory

[Kodystri]

Basic info about the Fox MU.

vs

Indicated no advantage

Jab locks like Link, but not as bad
Exploit our end lag easily
Fortunately can't be edgeguard as well because of his fast fall speed.
It is very hard for Ness to get Fox off of him, even with his OoS Nair
Has the advantage in offstage
Down Smash beats Fox Illusion when Fox is recovering offstage with it
IMO wins the neutral game.
PK Thunder is useless on the stage besides PKT2
Can escape PK Fire easier than most
Can't camp with lasers, so Fox is forced to approach
Fair beats all of aerials
Better quick punishes than Ness
Has the better grab game
Fox is light, which makes it easier to kill Fox.


Honestly, I would say Fox wins the MU if it wasn't for the fact we have a better offstage game than him.

 

[Noa.]

It just strikes me as a very even matchup. Onstage fox can be pretty oppressive.

And Link's jab stuff was removed last patch thank god.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness can easily get Fox off stage Noa. PKT wrecks illusion, and so does ftilt (oddly enough, I find it has GREAT utility in this matchup). Once Fox is below the stage, fair can be used to stage spike Fire Fox, and it's tricky to tech because of its multiple hits. You can also use bair, sour or sweet to hit him since the hitbox lasts for a bit. After you sourspot bair, you can go for an easy footstool setup. This was the gimp tech I was exploring earlier, but found wasn't too useful EXCEPT on Fox and Falco

Other things I wanna mention:
Reminder that ftilt is really useful for catching illusion, going for the ledge OR on stage. Stand at the edge, ftilt down for ledge attempts, and forwards/up for on stage.
Ness can duck under lasers.
Do NOT press out nairs recklessly against smart Fox players. If you're ensnared in jabs or utilt chains, do your best to DJ+air dodge out. Being stuck in this stuff really sucks.
Fox off stage may not always be a guaranteed KO, but it IS a lot of free damage since PKT is going to hurt him a lot until he comes back. Even if Fox stalls with reflector, you can stall PKT around him and most likely still get a hit.

 

[Luco]

Hmmm, it looks like Uair might even be safer than Bair, at least in this MU. For the first time in 4 years I'm considering switching my control setup when I get home!

And I thought I knew the Bthrow percents for Fox but he dies so early oh my gosh.

Dunno who has the edge. Seriously though I think in that set, like, every kill that Atyeo gets is a Usmash.

 

[Noa.]

I know there's a set on YouTube of Shaky taking a best of five against Megafox. And then Megafox returning the best of five against him.

I mean if you think it's really easy enough to edge guard him then maybe it's a bad matchup. But just because we edge guard him well doesn't mean it's in our advantage. We know that well enough from the rest of our matchups haha. I suppose if you think that we do well enough onstage against him then it could be in our favor.

 

[Luco]

Ooh is there any chance we can get that linked here? I'd be interested in watching that. =D

I think we may have the tools to do well onstage but Uair and Bair are probably essential. The jab lock is really annoying but only works at a certain percent and distance I believe?

Spoiler

Oh before I forget, something I saw in the match reminded me of a combo I think might be cool to use in general. You run and FH off the edge and PK fire in the opposite direction, to try and catch the person most likely following you to the ledge. Then you DJ Fair, then immediately Uair, FF then SH Nair. If they don't react quickly enough, you can then FF land, grab, pummel, Dthrow and double/triple Fair. It's like a 40/50% combo if done right (only really works if they're between 0-10% though), and it feels more than satisfying to land. Not a true combo past the Nair though, and also if they shield the PK fire (initial hit or pillar) and thus avoid the Fair then obviously it doesn't work.

I think with a different setup to my current one you can also trade the Nair for another Uair and punish the landing but that should be tested.

 

[Earthbound360]

I know there's a set on YouTube of Shaky taking a best of five against Megafox. And then Megafox returning the best of five against him.

I mean if you think it's really easy enough to edge guard him then maybe it's a bad matchup. But just because we edge guard him well doesn't mean it's in our advantage. We know that well enough from the rest of our matchups haha. I suppose if you think that we do well enough onstage against him then it could be in our favor.

Oh I'm definitely not saying that offstage game = advantage, but I'd just like to emphasize that we do win in that aspect. I'm the one who originally stated that I think Fox is even at best. Like I said, he controls the ground so friggin well, and Ness can't get out of his combos very easily.

 

[PKBeam]

oh god please don't talk about them butchering Link's kill options.
the jab stuff didn't really work on ness but i swear the MU got better by a whole number.

 

[Noa.]

Oh I'm definitely not saying that offstage game = advantage, but I'd just like to emphasize that we do win in that aspect. I'm the one who originally stated that I think Fox is even at best. Like I said, he controls the ground so friggin well, and Ness can't get out of his combos very easily.

Then we're in agreement.

I'm mostly interested in @ Meccs reasons for his +2 on the Fox matchup.

These are the sets between Shaky and Megafox:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJHa9thy2u4&ab_channel=TeamGreensleeves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL9jbvixDtE&ab_channel=TeamGreensleeves

 

[Luco]

You guys know how we were talking about other character boards and their perceptions of their character vs others in the cast (obviously we talked about it in relation to ourselves but still)? It came up in the competitive impressions thread and I think it's quite an interesting subject so if anyone wants to go check it out they should.

Here's the link: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-690#post-19289582

 

[Meccs]

I'm mostly interested in @ Meccs reasons for his +2 on the Fox matchup.

Sorry, bogged down by work I'll expand in a bit, basically I think if you play even slightly defensively against Fox it's a great fight for Ness.

 

[FullMoon]

Since @ Luco mentioned it in the Character Competitive Impressions thread, I just thought of coming here to see what he was talking about.

Now, I did not come here just to argue why Greninja beats Ness or any of that stuff because that would be pointless, but I do want to say some things about this MU.

First up, I do understand that getting Ness offstage doesn't mean instant death for him in the MU, assuming that would be really dumb, however Greninja still does have the advantage offstage, if we can ever force Ness to use PK Thunder (which, by the way, Greninja doesn't struggle too much to do, a well timed shuriken can eat Ness's double jump or force him to airdodge and outside of that, our B-Air is fast and long lasting while also having a good range so we can smack Ness back a bit or just KO him outright) he's really at Greninja's mercy at that point and unless the Greninja messes up, it's very likely that Ness will be gimped.

Another thing I found out that works on our favor is that if we're hit by PK Fire, Greninja can prevent Ness from grabbing him by mashing jab, somehow he manages to get the hitbox out and that will prevent Ness from getting the grab in, of course grabbing isn't the only thing Ness can do out of PK Fire, but it is something that helps Greninja in the MU.

Ness also doesn't deal well with being juggled by Greninja as he doesn't have much to help him land safely (N-Air would probably be the best choice) while Greninja has a lot in the way to keep Ness in a bad position, especially with Up-Smash being a very good anti-air that Ness doesn't have much of an answer to (N-Air trades with it at best).

Ness does have plenty of strenghts though, his aerial game is better than ours what with those disjoints in F-Air and B-Air (though I'm pretty sure our F-Air has more disjoint than either) and his grab game is amazing and very dangerous and of course, B-Throw. He can also harass Greninja pretty well with PK Thunder when he's offstage, though if Greninja manages to make his way across Ness might be left wide open for punishment.

I do think Greninja's ground game is better though, a lot of Ness's attacks on the ground are pretty laggy or short ranged so we have a better time dealing with him when he's on the ground since we can really exploit his weakness there with our range and mobility.

I've faced a lot of Ness players myself (including Kodystri and last time I played his Ness our last game was pretty close though he still won) so I think I know the MU pretty well to be able to talk about it and I never really felt overwhelmed when fighting Ness, though it never felt easy either, I find the MU to be even myself.

Again I'm not here to defend my character or anything, I just wanted to express my opinion on the match-up and see if anything productive could come out of it.

Oh, and I apologize if I'm derailing the discussion.

 

[Noa.]

Since @ Luco mentioned it in the Character Competitive Impressions thread, I just thought of coming here to see what he was talking about.

Now, I did not come here just to argue why Greninja beats Ness or any of that stuff because that would be pointless, but I do want to say some things about this MU.

First up, I do understand that getting Ness offstage doesn't mean instant death for him in the MU, assuming that would be really dumb, however Greninja still does have the advantage offstage, if we can ever force Ness to use PK Thunder (which, by the way, Greninja doesn't struggle too much to do, a well timed shuriken can eat Ness's double jump or force him to airdodge and outside of that, our B-Air is fast and long lasting while also having a good range so we can smack Ness back a bit or just KO him outright) he's really at Greninja's mercy at that point and unless the Greninja messes up, it's very likely that Ness will be gimped.

Another thing I found out that works on our favor is that if we're hit by PK Fire, Greninja can prevent Ness from grabbing him by mashing jab, somehow he manages to get the hitbox out and that will prevent Ness from getting the grab in, of course grabbing isn't the only thing Ness can do out of PK Fire, but it is something that helps Greninja in the MU.

Ness also doesn't deal well with being juggled by Greninja as he doesn't have much to help him land safely (N-Air would probably be the best choice) while Greninja has a lot in the way to keep Ness in a bad position, especially with Up-Smash being a very good anti-air that Ness doesn't have much of an answer to (N-Air trades with it at best).

Ness does have plenty of strenghts though, his aerial game is better than ours what with those disjoints in F-Air and B-Air (though I'm pretty sure our F-Air has more disjoint than either) and his grab game is amazing and very dangerous and of course, B-Throw. He can also harass Greninja pretty well with PK Thunder when he's offstage, though if Greninja manages to make his way across Ness might be left wide open for punishment.

I do think Greninja's ground game is better though, a lot of Ness's attacks on the ground are pretty laggy or short ranged so we have a better time dealing with him when he's on the ground since we can really exploit his weakness there with our range and mobility.

I've faced a lot of Ness players myself (including Kodystri and last time I played his Ness our last game was pretty close though he still won) so I think I know the MU pretty well to be able to talk about it and I never really felt overwhelmed when fighting Ness, though it never felt easy either, I find the MU to be even myself.

Again I'm not here to defend my character or anything, I just wanted to express my opinion on the match-up and see if anything productive could come out of it.

Oh, and I apologize if I'm derailing the discussion.

No it's totally fine and I welcome discussion any time haha.

For the first iteration of our matchup chart, we're only touching on 11 matchups. These 11 matchups are the 11 most common tournament characters, at least according to the SWF rankings. The rankings aren't incredibly accurate, but they work well enough to generally gauge the most popular characters.

Right now Greninja isn't a tournament threat. Not because he's not a good character but because not many people play him.
And the few that do probably don't play him well since he's so hard to use. That means that Ness mains can't accurately describe the matchup for the most part. Who here has played against a variety of Greninja players that play at a tournament level?

In a couple months we plan on doing the next set of 12 tournament relevant characters. We will definitely include Greninja then and we'll see how ness mains feel about the matchup. That should give enough time for Ness players to experience tournament play against the more fringe characters.

From what I've seen posted on these boards I see a lot of people think that Ness has a slight advantage. I don't find that surprising just because Greninja is so unpopular and difficult to play well. As the meta progresses there's a good chance the matchup won't turn out to be in our favor.

I'll speak to my personal thoughts on it.

There are only two dedicated Greninja mains in FL as far as I know. Coffee and Akashic Sword. I've played against and beat Coffee in tournament. I have yet to play against Akashic Sword unfortunately. He's probably the best Greninja in FL as well. Hopefully i get the chance to play with him sooner rather than later. Ookami is a decent player who also mains Greninja that I've faced. I've also played against a couple of other random Greninjas. I'm comfortable enough to say I have a bit of experience in the matchup, but I don't have any solid opinions on it yet.

I get the feeling that it might slightly be in our favor. Greninja's frame data really holds him back I feel. His aerials are not good at dealing with pk thunder harass cause they're so slow. If he ever short hops while we're in fair or nair range he'll get beat out pretty easily. Unlike Rosalina, Greninja doesn't have access to fast, large disjointed hitboxes on the ground that he can try to wall out Ness with. I'm sure Shuriken can be potent, but projectiles that travel through the air are typically more difficult for Ness to confront, and Greninja can use his shuriken in the air without a pretty heavy commitment.

Greninja does juggle Ness quite well because of his gigantic disjointed usmash. And with any hard read off stage ness will die to Greninja. I will say that I don't feel like Greninja has great Kill power or options. Obviously his smashes kill, and his fair and bair aren't too bad either, but neither of those kill too early.

You're right that Greninja has an easier time than most characters getting out of PK Fire. This is because he has very fast fall speed and his limbs protect the core of his hurtbox. That means it's very easy for him to get out of PK Fire.

I get the impression that Ness has more going on in this matchup than greninja. But there's a good chance it's an even matchup. I wouldn't say I've ever played a Greninja as good as me so that probably heavily skews my opinion.

 

[FullMoon]

No it's totally fine and I welcome discussion any time haha.

For the first iteration of our matchup chart, we're only touching on 11 matchups. These 11 matchups are the 11 most common tournament characters, at least according to the SWF rankings. The rankings aren't incredibly accurate, but they work well enough to generally gauge the most popular characters.

Right now Greninja isn't a tournament threat. Not because he's not a good character but because not many people play him.
And the few that do probably don't play him well since he's so hard to use. That means that Ness mains can't accurately describe the matchup for the most part. Who here has played against a variety of Greninja players that play at a tournament level?

In a couple months we plan on doing the next set of 12 tournament relevant characters. We will definitely include Greninja then and we'll see how ness mains feel about the matchup. That should give enough time for Ness players to experience tournament play against the more fringe characters.

From what I've seen posted on these boards I see a lot of people think that Ness has a slight advantage. I don't find that surprising just because Greninja is so unpopular and difficult to play well. As the meta progresses there's a good chance the matchup won't turn out to be in our favor.

I'll speak to my personal thoughts on it.

There are only two dedicated Greninja mains in FL as far as I know. Coffee and Akashic Sword. I've played against and beat Coffee in tournament. I have yet to play against Akashic Sword unfortunately. He's probably the best Greninja in FL as well. Hopefully i get the chance to play with him sooner rather than later. Ookami is a decent player who also mains Greninja that I've faced. I've also played against a couple of other random Greninjas. I'm comfortable enough to say I have a bit of experience in the matchup, but I don't have any solid opinions on it yet.

I get the feeling that it might slightly be in our favor. Greninja's frame data really holds him back I feel. His aerials are not good at dealing with pk thunder harass cause they're so slow. If he ever short hops while we're in fair or nair range he'll get beat out pretty easily. Unlike Rosalina, Greninja doesn't have access to fast, large disjointed hitboxes on the ground that he can try to wall out Ness with. I'm sure Shuriken can be potent, but projectiles that travel through the air are typically more difficult for Ness to confront, and Greninja can use his shuriken in the air without a pretty heavy commitment.

Greninja does juggle Ness quite well because of his gigantic disjointed usmash. And with any hard read off stage ness will die to Greninja. I will say that I don't feel like Greninja has great Kill power or options. Obviously his smashes kill, and his fair and bair aren't too bad either, but neither of those kill too early.

You're right that Greninja has an easier time than most characters getting out of PK Fire. This is because he has very fast fall speed and his limbs protect the core of his hurtbox. That means it's very easy for him to get out of PK Fire.

I get the impression that Ness has more going on in this matchup than greninja. But there's a good chance it's an even matchup. I wouldn't say I've ever played a Greninja as good as me so that probably heavily skews my opinion.

While Greninja's F-Air is indeed pretty slow, his B-Air isn't really, it's frame 5. Greninja players do need to make more use of B-Air in neutral since it has such a good range and speed to it, as you mentioned yourself, Greninja is hard to play so there's still a lot for us to learn.

I do need to correct you about Greninja's kill power and options though. Greninja can kill you guys as low as 87% with Up-Smash and catching you with a F-Smash or F-Air near the ledge allow us to kill you pretty early as well. Greninja also has many setups to allow him seal the deal on Ness ( Sourspot N-Air and D-Tilt both combo into Up-Smash, D-Air, Dash Attack and sourspot N-Air can combo into F-Air all at kill %s) so he definitely has the power to take Ness out pretty quickly if he gets the chance. In fact if it wasn't for Ness's back throw I don't think Ness has anything guaranteed to kill Greninja outside of maybe something with PK Thunder. I've often lived to very high percentages against Ness players that couldn't grab me.

 

[Luco]

Thanks for coming to discuss it @ FullMoon , I'm really happy you're here. ^_^

I remember the reason I was very :/ about it when you guys discussed it was because a lot of people over-rated our use of PK Fire in the MU and what Greninja could do to get around that (which, don't get me wrong, is a strength for him for when we do throw it out) and I think at high level play you'll find PK fire is far less of a B&B tool.

In regards to recovering for the shuriken, I was interested in this idea. Normally if Ness mains really feel under threat from an edge-guard, we'll DJ AD through it; and because our DJ is so massive (3rd highest second jump iirc, possibly 2nd) it usually gets us through a lot. Shuriken sounds like a bit of a commitment, so wouldn't we just AD if we saw Greninja standing onstage or even jumping off and trying to use shuriken? I certainly think it's still very advantaged for you, but I also feel as though DJ is still a big tool for us offstage. Feel free to prove me otherwise.

For the most part my interest comes from noticing discrepancies in how the Ness mains see the MU and how the Greninja mains see the MU, as well as questioning certain lines of thought (not that they're necessarily wrong of course). But, I actually would be fine if Greninja was say, even against Ness, I just wanted everyone to be on the same page about it. So yeah, again I have to say thanks for coming to discuss it!

 

[FullMoon]

Ness's double jump is indeed one very good tool to help him recover and is pretty much the reason why edgeguarding Ness isn't as easy as it sounds on paper. I mentioned the shuriken thing because I've had it happen before a lot with Ness players getting sniped out of their double jump with it and while it's not a 100% reliable method, it's still useful.

Otherwise, I don't have much to say about it. Airdodging against Greninja can result in you getting smacked with B-Air though and if that happens you're gonna be sent back without your double jump at which point you're in a pretty bad position.

 

[Earthbound360]

Since @ Luco mentioned it in the Character Competitive Impressions thread, I just thought of coming here to see what he was talking about.

Now, I did not come here just to argue why Greninja beats Ness or any of that stuff because that would be pointless, but I do want to say some things about this MU.

First up, I do understand that getting Ness offstage doesn't mean instant death for him in the MU, assuming that would be really dumb, however Greninja still does have the advantage offstage, if we can ever force Ness to use PK Thunder (which, by the way, Greninja doesn't struggle too much to do, a well timed shuriken can eat Ness's double jump or force him to airdodge and outside of that, our B-Air is fast and long lasting while also having a good range so we can smack Ness back a bit or just KO him outright) he's really at Greninja's mercy at that point and unless the Greninja messes up, it's very likely that Ness will be gimped.

Another thing I found out that works on our favor is that if we're hit by PK Fire, Greninja can prevent Ness from grabbing him by mashing jab, somehow he manages to get the hitbox out and that will prevent Ness from getting the grab in, of course grabbing isn't the only thing Ness can do out of PK Fire, but it is something that helps Greninja in the MU.

Ness also doesn't deal well with being juggled by Greninja as he doesn't have much to help him land safely (N-Air would probably be the best choice) while Greninja has a lot in the way to keep Ness in a bad position, especially with Up-Smash being a very good anti-air that Ness doesn't have much of an answer to (N-Air trades with it at best).

Ness does have plenty of strenghts though, his aerial game is better than ours what with those disjoints in F-Air and B-Air (though I'm pretty sure our F-Air has more disjoint than either) and his grab game is amazing and very dangerous and of course, B-Throw. He can also harass Greninja pretty well with PK Thunder when he's offstage, though if Greninja manages to make his way across Ness might be left wide open for punishment.

I do think Greninja's ground game is better though, a lot of Ness's attacks on the ground are pretty laggy or short ranged so we have a better time dealing with him when he's on the ground since we can really exploit his weakness there with our range and mobility.

I've faced a lot of Ness players myself (including Kodystri and last time I played his Ness our last game was pretty close though he still won) so I think I know the MU pretty well to be able to talk about it and I never really felt overwhelmed when fighting Ness, though it never felt easy either, I find the MU to be even myself.

Again I'm not here to defend my character or anything, I just wanted to express my opinion on the match-up and see if anything productive could come out of it.

Oh, and I apologize if I'm derailing the discussion.

Offstage game is indeed in Greninja's favor, but I still don't see why Ness would be forced to use PKT in most situations. It's not like Greninja can forcibly pursue Ness off stage better than most characters (I'm talking Jiggs and Villager here), nor does he have a projectile he can just drop off the ledge should Ness decide to recover low. Those are the things that force me to use PKT2 most often. Like Luco mentioned, just with the DJ alone we can recover most of the time. Add that to the fact that Greninja doesn't have any attacks that send you horizontally (like Ganon's ftilt), and I feel that we'll be recovering with just our DJ most of the time. Shuriken snipes out of the DJ really should only happen if the Ness isn't being careful with his recovery. DJ+air dodge gets him through a lot of stuff, and DJ+aerial (fair/nair) should outprioritize just about everything Greninja can throw out at him on an edgeguard.
The actual biggest reason I give Greninja an advantage off stage is because Ness really can't do squat against him off stage. Seriously Ness mains, do NOT overextend to edgeguard this character. You'll find yourself in a watery grave.

PKF is not integral to Ness' gameplay, especially against a higher mobility character like Greninja. Sure he might have a free ticket out, but that doesn't actually change too much in the matchup. Even if you jab, there are a ton of other things we can do to punish that, like spit out another PKF, or aerials.

I disagree with Ness having it hard being juggled. Ness has high priority aerials that trade well. If Ness nairs Greninja's uair, he gets out of the juggle and wins that trade. Also, his aerial mobility, weight, and air dodge very rarely gets him comboed by uthrow > uair. Greninja players usually have to go for the air dodge read. I've been subjected to uthrow into uair/usmash often, but Ness seems to have the mobility to wriggle out of it. You shouldn't be challenging it, but moreso avoiding it. Even then, bair is probably a safer landing tool than nair. Nair is just for trading with the uair or beating out attacks in terms of speed. In fact, nair is one of the more dangerous aerials to land with, so I don't know where you got the idea to land with it. Uair and bair are much safer.

Ness easily has the advantage in the air, I feel like there's not much to say here. Ness aerials trade harder, outprioritize, and outspeed Greninja's. The only thing Greninja might have is a little more range on his aerials. With Greninja's fast fall speed, uair on the ground also combos really easily into grabs and utilts and stuff.

On the other side of the coin, Greninja easily beats out Ness on the ground, but so does half the cast. Ness will either be grabbing or preparing to SH if he's on the ground. Just be aware though, that Ness' combo starts DO start from the ground, and they hurt a lot if you get opened up by them.

I'm still pretty fixed on it being a slight advantage to us. Greninja just doesn't have the threatening tools outside of some gimping power to make me feel like this matchup is out of our favor. I'm not afraid of him in the air, I'm not afraid of him on the ground (worst thing is uthrow I feel), and I'm not afraid of him at KO percents. I'm really just afraid when I'm off stage.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is really not afraid of much of what Ness can do either other than B-Throw. Ness has no kill confirms against him other than it and so as long as we know what we can and can't challenge Ness can't do much to us either.

Ness's Air Speed isn't even that good, he's 31th. Greninja has more aerial mobility than him, though Ness does have a better air dodge but that's probably it, Ness and Greninja also have the exact same weight.

 

[Kodystri]

Greninja is really not afraid of much of what Ness can do either other than B-Throw. Ness has no kill confirms against him other than it and so as long as we know what we can and can't challenge Ness can't do much to us either.

Ness's Air Speed isn't even that good, he's 31th. Greninja has more aerial mobility than him, though Ness does have a better air dodge but that's probably it, Ness and Greninja also have the exact same weight.

Ness has better aerials imo.

 

[Meccs]

I havent played a greninja in ages but his Fair beats ours I think?
Against Greninja I mainly worry about Dair since it beats Uair and goes through PKT (Iirc) and the small water shuriken. once it starts being charged you can bat it back super easy and theres enough cooldown that it usually hits Greninja but the little uncharged ones are problematic. and his Fair offstage is trouble. i think its rather tough for Ness to approach greninja. Ness will do well close range but the main problem is getting there.
Uair stands out to me as a great kill move in this matchup, from what I remember. but like I said its been a while.

 

[Noa.]

I havent played a greninja in ages but his Fair beats ours I think?
Against Greninja I mainly worry about Dair since it beats Uair and goes through PKT (Iirc) and the small water shuriken. once it starts being charged you can bat it back super easy and theres enough cooldown that it usually hits Greninja but the little uncharged ones are problematic. and his Fair offstage is trouble. i think its rather tough for Ness to approach greninja. Ness will do well close range but the main problem is getting there.
Uair stands out to me as a great kill move in this matchup, from what I remember. but like I said its been a while.

How about that Fox matchup. 8)

 

[Meccs]

Ness combos Fox extremely well, hes light so he kills him early with Uair and Backthrow, can beat out Illusion with Ftilt and PKT. PSI Magnet prevents Fox from laser camping. Even with the reflector Ness can still put a lot of pressure on Fox offstage with PKT, plus Fair and Nair. Just play defensively with shield for aerial approaches and jab for grab attempts. Like if I'm playing against Fox I'm pretty much watching out for three things which will cause trouble for Ness: Jab lock, Usmash for kills, and grab so set up aerials. Maybe I'm not thinking about Fox's strengths enough but I feel like Ness just shuts him down well and Fox has a tough time spacing against Ness.

 

[Earthbound360]

I havent played a greninja in ages but his Fair beats ours I think?
Against Greninja I mainly worry about Dair since it beats Uair and goes through PKT (Iirc) and the small water shuriken. once it starts being charged you can bat it back super easy and theres enough cooldown that it usually hits Greninja but the little uncharged ones are problematic. and his Fair offstage is trouble. i think its rather tough for Ness to approach greninja. Ness will do well close range but the main problem is getting there.
Uair stands out to me as a great kill move in this matchup, from what I remember. but like I said its been a while.

Dair trades with uair, and even then if you read it, Greninja is super vulnerable on landing, ripe for punishment.
The water shuriken is annoying to a degree, but at least they're not needles. Idk, I feel like they just don't control the neutral well enough for me to worry. They have enough startup and travel speed to SH over with ease, and you can nair them if you get too low.
I think you're overrating how hard it is for Ness to get in. It's not the easiest, but it's still not too bad. I actually get killed more by usmash reads than uair. Uair just isn't that hard to avoid.

 

[Kodystri]

I'm starting to think Ness vs Sonic is 50/50. (Now here comes to storm of Ness vs Sonic is bad).

 

[ShuckleBoard]

I'm starting to think Ness vs Sonic is 50/50. (Now here comes to storm of Ness vs Sonic is bad).

YOU IDIOT!!!! But really I actually like this MU when I'm not getting gimped.

 

[Earthbound360]

Honestly, the more i play the matchup, the WORSE I think it is. I used to think it could maybe possibly be a -1 as opposed to -2, but I almost lost grand finals to a Sonic last night. I could beat all of his other characters, but Sonic man...

 

[ShuckleBoard]

Honestly, the more i play the matchup, the WORSE I think it is. I used to think it could maybe possibly be a -1 as opposed to -2, but I almost lost grand finals to a Sonic last night. I could beat all of his other characters, but Sonic man...

Maybe all of the Sonics in my area are too slow. I honestly just spam Fair and Nair and win.

 

[Earthbound360]

Maybe all of the Sonics in my area are too slow. I honestly just spam Fair and Nair and win.

The good Sonics charge their spin dash and move in right when you're on the cooldown of those moves, the hit you with a 30% spin dash combo >.<

 

[ShuckleBoard]

The good Sonics charge their spin dash and move in right when you're on the cooldown of those moves, the hit you with a 30% spin dash combo >.<

To clarify I don't 'spam' or throw them out I space with them. All the Sonics I play are very aggressive and get grabbed a lot for it. I guess you have more experience with Seagull Joe in your area. Altough I can see how the match-up could turn bad for Ness in a hurry.

 

[Kodystri]

The good Sonics charge their spin dash and move in right when you're on the cooldown of those moves, the hit you with a 30% spin dash combo >.<

22% now. You need to use Dsmash or Up Smash fairly often in this MU. Down Smash is a great punish if he decides to turn around in Spin Dash. Wait until he uses Spin Dash to Nair. Just basically short hop until he does. if he catches you before you can nair, then just shield(Make sure you don't accidently airdodge. Just make sure you are not half of FD distance close to him. Be either far away or close to him. SH Airdodge to Nair works fairly well if you are close. If they shield it, you wil get grabbed, but I am not threatened by Sonic's Grabs anymore. You could mix it up and Tomahawk him.

 

[Earthbound360]

22% now. You need to use Dsmash or Up Smash fairly often in this MU. Down Smash is a great punish if he decides to turn around in Spin Dash. Wait until he uses Spin Dash to Nair. Just basically short hop until he does. if he catches you before you can nair, then just shield(Make sure you don't accidently airdodge. Just make sure you are not half of FD distance close to him. Be either far away or close to him. SH Airdodge to Nair works fairly well if you are close. If they shield it, you wil get grabbed, but I am not threatened by Sonic's Grabs anymore. You could mix it up and Tomahawk him.

These are all things I do, but Sonic still has an advantage here. The yo-yos are really friggin huge commitments, and one mistake will get you punished hard for the measly 9/13% you'd do on hit. I already understand that we outprioritize him with aerials vs. spind dash, but that's not the problem. The problem is that Sonic is just better at getting you to play his game than you are. I know that the midrange is the most lethal range, but Ness just doesn't have the speed and pressure to make sure Sonic can't stay out of that range. Also, defensive Sonics will never commit to anything that you can punish hard enough to even out the damage quickly.

 

[Kodystri]

These are all things I do, but Sonic still has an advantage here. The yo-yos are really friggin huge commitments, and one mistake will get you punished hard for the measly 9/13% you'd do on hit. I already understand that we outprioritize him with aerials vs. spind dash, but that's not the problem. The problem is that Sonic is just better at getting you to play his game than you are. I know that the midrange is the most lethal range, but Ness just doesn't have the speed and pressure to make sure Sonic can't stay out of that range. Also, defensive Sonics will never commit to anything that you can punish hard enough to even out the damage quickly.

You do realize Up Smash and Down Smash comes out frame 5 right? Down Smash stays on one side for a few frames, so its quick and good. The problem is when you get TOO Aggressive. You can't play his game. You have to make him PLAY your game. You have to constantly put him in a bad position. PK Fire punishes the spin dash, but that is a huge commitment. Also PK Thunder forces him to jump or shield if he is in spin Dash to avoid getting hit. Once Sonic is in the air, we have a clear advantage. Springs are a pain in the butt, but can be punish when you see his habits

 

[Earthbound360]

You do realize Up Smash and Down Smash comes out frame 5 right? Down Smash stays on one side for a few frames, so its quick and good. The problem is when you get TOO Aggressive. You can't play his game. You have to make him PLAY your game. You have to constantly put him in a bad position. PK Fire punishes the spin dash, but that is a huge commitment. Also PK Thunder forces him to jump or shield if he is in spin Dash to avoid getting hit. Once Sonic is in the air, we have a clear advantage. Springs are a pain in the butt, but can be punish when you see his habits

Usmash is frame 6. Dsmash is frame 10.
10 frames is decent, but not incredibly quick. Both moves are gigantic 30+ frame commitments, so you better be sure as hell that you're hitting with them before throwing them out. They also have mediocre priority.

The problem with Sonic is that we literally cannot force him to play on our terms. He's just faster than us. He'll always be able to space himself such that he's at a range advantage. The only time he won't be is if you catch him landing, or if you pick a really small stage. Putting him in a bad position just isn't possible 100% of the time because we're so slow in comparison.

I don't know what Sonics are giving you the time to safely toss out PKF/PKT while they're grounded. If the Sonic is good and his punish game is on point as it should be, PKT grounded is dangerous, PKF is just suicide. And why bother using the slow startup PKT during spin dash when I could just nair it for even more damage?

We also can't assume that spring is the only thing Sonic can do in the air. Yes, Ness beats Sonic in the air, but there's a lot Sonic can do coming down. I had a first hand experience with this literally last night in tournament. After a spring jump, Sonic players can dair, FF nair, homing attack, or air dodge away from you, all of which can be mixed up to keep Sonic safe. Nair and dair are lagless (dair only if they space it correctly). True, you can beat dair out with aerials, but only if the Sonic player is being incredibly predictable. It also doesn't help that the spring drops a hitbox that eats through the head of PKT if you try to catch him with that. Sonic just doesn't have to stay in the air long enough for us to press our only advantage in this matchup.

 

[PKBeam]

just saying, I would not PKT or use smashes on a Sonic charging spin dash.

 

[Kodystri]

Usmash is frame 6. Dsmash is frame 10.
10 frames is decent, but not incredibly quick. Both moves are gigantic 30+ frame commitments, so you better be sure as hell that you're hitting with them before throwing them out. They also have mediocre priority.

The problem with Sonic is that we literally cannot force him to play on our terms. He's just faster than us. He'll always be able to space himself such that he's at a range advantage. The only time he won't be is if you catch him landing, or if you pick a really small stage. Putting him in a bad position just isn't possible 100% of the time because we're so slow in comparison.

I don't know what Sonics are giving you the time to safely toss out PKF/PKT while they're grounded. If the Sonic is good and his punish game is on point as it should be, PKT grounded is dangerous, PKF is just suicide. And why bother using the slow startup PKT during spin dash when I could just nair it for even more damage?

We also can't assume that spring is the only thing Sonic can do in the air. Yes, Ness beats Sonic in the air, but there's a lot Sonic can do coming down. I had a first hand experience with this literally last night in tournament. After a spring jump, Sonic players can dair, FF nair, homing attack, or air dodge away from you, all of which can be mixed up to keep Sonic safe. Nair and dair are lagless (dair only if they space it correctly). True, you can beat dair out with aerials, but only if the Sonic player is being incredibly predictable. It also doesn't help that the spring drops a hitbox that eats through the head of PKT if you try to catch him with that. Sonic just doesn't have to stay in the air long enough for us to press our only advantage in this matchup.

Oops, read the frame chart wrong. Anyways. They have ENOUGH priority to beat Spin Dash. I said PKF is a huge commitment, please don't twist my words. I also said PKT forces Sonic to Shield/Jump over PKT if charging Spin Dash(Good distance away). So no Sonic will be able to punish your PKT. And you can't Nair him if he is far away.

I never said Spring is the only thing Sonic can do in the air. All of Sonic's aerials are punishable on landing. If we get hit by the spring, we won't be able to punish. Sonic doesn't have the best landing options. If you shield the FF Nair, Nair or grab punishes that. If you predict where he is going to Dair, you can punish that, yet again with Nair/Grab. Air Dodging risks being in a bad position and Nair/Fair covers that. Homing attack is not safe if you dodge it. Also, you need to juggle him with PKT while avoiding the Spring hitting the Thunder. You must be doing something wrong.

 

[Earthbound360]

Oops, read the frame chart wrong. Anyways. They have ENOUGH priority to beat Spin Dash. I said PKF is a huge commitment, please don't twist my words. I also said PKT forces Sonic to Shield/Jump over PKT if charging Spin Dash(Good distance away). So no Sonic will be able to punish your PKT. And you can't Nair him if he is far away.

I never said Spring is the only thing Sonic can do in the air. All of Sonic's aerials are punishable on landing. If we get hit by the spring, we won't be able to punish. Sonic doesn't have the best landing options. If you shield the FF Nair, Nair or grab punishes that. If you predict where he is going to Dair, you can punish that, yet again with Nair/Grab. Air Dodging risks being in a bad position and Nair/Fair covers that. Homing attack is not safe if you dodge it. Also, you need to juggle him with PKT while avoiding the Spring hitting the Thunder. You must be doing something wrong.

PKF just isn't worth the risk in this matchup. Even when hit, Sonic is easily capable of springing out to avoid grabs 90% of the time.

Sonic has too many options out of spin dash to even try PKT. If I'm a Sonic and I see you tossing out PKT, I can spin shot in, spin dash > jump > homing attack, or just shield to stop the charge. The first 2 will easily get NEss before he can finish the animation for PKT, and the last one is just incredibly low risk. You're better off just anticipating the approach with nair at full distance.

FF nair into the ground isn't what I was referring to. Sonic can fall towards the ground and mix up between nair and air dodge at a height that allows him to drift safely in either direction while being able to select between these 2 options based on your juggle attempt. Dair is NOT punishable on landing if used at the correct height, Sonic players can roll or spot dodge immediately upon landing. I see Seagull Joe do it all the time. You have to hit him BEFORE he touches the ground, but that takes some anticipation and timing. And yes, I know homing attack is not safe if dodged, but good Sonics will very rarely use it in situations in which you can punish it. And I never said that the spring hitting the thunder makes it impossible to thunder juggle him, just more annoying. But I will say that PKT juggling him is harder than other characters due to his dair to get him to the ground immediately, gigantic and quick UpB, and multiple ways of shifting his aerial momentum in his specials.

Just curious, what Sonic players do you play against? They really shouldn't be allowing you to PKT their spin dash charges, or get PKF combos on them. I play with Seagull Joe pretty often, who along with 6WX is probably one of the best Sonics in the nation, and can take games off of him sometimes.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You should only use Up b as vs when he's way offstage. If both are onstage then it's a horrid option. Grounded spindash actually clanks with everything ever unless it does like 18%.

 

[Kodystri]

You should only use Up b as vs when he's way offstage. If both are onstage then it's a horrid option. Grounded spindash actually clanks with everything ever unless it does like 18%.

Just not going to argue anymore about PKT. If it works for me, it works for me. Not going to convince anyone anyways ,especially if they refuse to try it.

Just saying though, if PKFire hits Sonic, yes, he can Up-B, but it still puts Sonic in a bad position, especially if Sonic is near the edge. Sonic risks the option of getting hit by PKT2 and PKT after the PK Fire is (almost) guaranteed. That is between 13%-18%ish damage you can do to him from a PK Fire. ofc you can't grab, oh well, you don't go for grabs on a Zelda, you do either another PK Fire or PKT on her to deal more damage. You don't go for grabs on Falcon/Greninja/Little Mac because they can Jab or in Mac's case, he can Counter. PK Thunder after the PK Fire *works*. Sure you are not doing 30-40% on Sonic, but you are doing damage. All damage counts.

Edit: You are wrong @ Seagull Joe . Forgot that almost all aerials beats it lol. Actually the Tail of PKT does beat out Spin Dash.

 

[Kodystri]

PKF just isn't worth the risk in this matchup. Even when hit, Sonic is easily capable of springing out to avoid grabs 90% of the time.

Sonic has too many options out of spin dash to even try PKT. If I'm a Sonic and I see you tossing out PKT, I can spin shot in, spin dash > jump > homing attack, or just shield to stop the charge. The first 2 will easily get NEss before he can finish the animation for PKT, and the last one is just incredibly low risk. You're better off just anticipating the approach with nair at full distance.

FF nair into the ground isn't what I was referring to. Sonic can fall towards the ground and mix up between nair and air dodge at a height that allows him to drift safely in either direction while being able to select between these 2 options based on your juggle attempt. Dair is NOT punishable on landing if used at the correct height, Sonic players can roll or spot dodge immediately upon landing. I see Seagull Joe do it all the time. You have to hit him BEFORE he touches the ground, but that takes some anticipation and timing. And yes, I know homing attack is not safe if dodged, but good Sonics will very rarely use it in situations in which you can punish it. And I never said that the spring hitting the thunder makes it impossible to thunder juggle him, just more annoying. But I will say that PKT juggling him is harder than other characters due to his dair to get him to the ground immediately, gigantic and quick UpB, and multiple ways of shifting his aerial momentum in his specials.

Just curious, what Sonic players do you play against? They really shouldn't be allowing you to PKT their spin dash charges, or get PKF combos on them. I play with Seagull Joe pretty often, who along with 6WX is probably one of the best Sonics in the nation, and can take games off of him sometimes.

That is your problem, you are not doing anything remotely risky according to your previous posts. Dair isn't punishable on landing, yes, but that is why you punish the move BEFORE he hits the ground. Dair is incredibly predictable if you see it coming. Actually, Sonic has three options after the spring. 1. Dair to ground and run away. 2. not dair and drift to something. Those three are fairly easy to punish. You also forgot Sonic can not use an special attack after Up bing, so Sonic's option are limited greatly.

About the Risk part.

Lets saaaay you are fighting a Bowser. You shouldn't use PKT, PK Fire(Doesn't work very well in the MU), PSI Magnet, All of Ness's aerials, lets saay all of his moves besides Nair and Grab. Oh. lets scratch Nair. If you do any move that is shielded, you will get punished by OoS Up B. If you are in the fear of taking a lot of damage, you will not think about using those moves. Many moves are more useful in every MU, especially PSI Magnet(Like its useless against Sonic but good vs Ness or Mii Gunner). You got to use those moves to your advantage. PK Fire has a use of stopping Spin Dash. Nair/Fair/Bair stops Spin Dash and aerial approaches. PKT edgeguards Sonic decently(not perfect though) Even though Down Smash is frame 10, it BEATS Spin Dash. I can do this move on reaction if a Sonic Spin Dashes towards me and I am facing the other direction. I get punished if I miss, yes, but you have to take risks in this MU. Sonic's weakness is mainly killing now. You know Sonic's kill moves, Bair, Uair and Smashes kill the earliest, while around past 150% is his throws, Nair, and Fair. You are worried about losing 30%(Its 22%, just to make things clear now). Ness generally kills around 90%-120%(150% is usually the latest). These days, I have been seeing Sonic kill around 130%-150% on average. So the Sonic would have to deal 1.25x more damage than Ness in most cases. Ness has ways to deal damage to Sonic just as Sonic has ways to deal damage to Ness. Ness needs to take advantage of Sonic in the air and when Sonic is off stage. Sonic's best way to deal with Ness offstage is Springs and Bair and sometimes Dair. Using the spring is pretty safe as it can half Ness's recovery while Bair can net an early kill.

Its like Ness vs Ganondorf. Ness, as majority of Ness and Ganon mains last time I checked, they all agree Ness wins the MU. But if you screw up by doing a bad options like even Nair can be punished, Ganondorf punishes hard.

I admit it isn't AS EXTREME as Ness vs Ganondorf, but you get the point. Sonic deals more damage when punishing while Ness punishes less.

 

[yoshi8984]

Idk, I feel like trying to PKF a Spin Dash needs a HARD read and you can't react to it. Same with the Yo-Yos. If I hit with it, it's really not rewarding. Whereas if I don't I'm gonna get punished hard.

Like in this match here (Game 1 only and I would suggest lowering the volume and avoid using headphones ), I never had the time to be using PKF, but Nair did work wonders in stopping it the majority of the time since I'm not giving up momentum to do so.

And then there's this set I had (Game 1 & 5; the latter is at 20:40) which I can't give an analysis of right now.

==

On a side note I'll likely give my input on the Fox MU later on. With video examples too. ;P