Sonic's Moveset Discussion + Acronyms List

[infomon]

Up-throw has sooo many great options:
Up-throw > Up-smash
Up-throw > VSDJ > Bair/Fair
Up-throw > grab

I like Up-throw > SD to provoke an airdodge > grab again
Malcolm uses it in that first vid against a Snake, it's awesome.

 

[Kinzer]

The possibilities with U-throw are unlimited.

As people have already suggested, you COULD at low %, U-throw them, and if they don't do anything or airdodge, I bet you could fake out and do a SpinDash Shield-Cancel right into an UTilt.

At medium %, it starts to set them right up for aerial moves.

And we all know how "DBZ" we can go at Killing %, what with the Star K.O.s and the Boxobairs (btw he got banned for good this time) and the Uairs and the Fairs... as if U-Throw doesn't already kill by itself!

U-Throw is too good, even Megaman wouldn't want to fall into this one, seeing as how you're throwing your opponents right onto your quills.

 

[SothE700k]

The possibilities with U-throw are unlimited.

As people have already suggested, you COULD at low %, U-throw them, and if they don't do anything or airdodge, I bet you could fake out and do a SpinDash Shield-Cancel right into an UTilt.

At medium %, it starts to set them right up for aerial moves.

And we all know how "DBZ" we can go at Killing %, what with the Star K.O.s and the Boxobairs (btw he got banned for good this time) and the Uairs and the Fairs... as if U-Throw doesn't already kill by itself!

U-Throw is too good, even Megaman wouldn't want to fall into this one, seeing as how you're throwing your opponents right onto your quills.

Wait, banned for good? How did that happen?
And Megaman would just shoot Sonic down, remember? lol

And something to add to U-throw: It doesn't really matter which way someone DI's, you can get them on sight (Hello to all your options =D)

 

[Tenki]

Sawp.

Situation 1.
You grab your opponent (midweight) at 0% and perform a U-throw:
Find the best answer to your opponent doing...
a) No-input (bad DI/stuck in short hitstun)
- Re-grab on landing (Umby) - 12% from U-throw, but it leaves you in control. Much freedom here.
- B-air (Tenki) - roughly ~25% damage. Some startup lag that can be airdodged or counterattacked by some characters, little ending and landing lag, leaving you free for a followup. Not good against opponents with hitstun resist.
- U-air (ROOOOY!) - roughly ~18-21%. Fast startup, little ending/landing lag, and pops opponent upwards, leaving you free for a followup. Not good against fast-falling opponents who can get on the ground before you can, since U-air has some noticeable landing lag if you FF too early.


b) DI towards Sonic's back (correct DI for U-throw- may escape hitstun).
- Re-grab on landing (Umby, Tenki) - 12% from U-throw, leaves you in control of the match. Countered by double jumping.
- F-air/B-air (Shadowlink84) - roughly ~20-25%, assuming you run after your opponent first. It can be airdodged, and some characters can hit you out of it. This can miss at times if your opponent can double jump.

c) Airdodge
- Re-grab on landing (Tenki, Umby, djbrowny) - 12% from U-throw. Same as usual.
- SH > Delayed N-air (ROOOOY!, Shadowlink84) - roughly 17-23%. This is a pretty good answer for a correctly-predicted airdodge, regardless of DI. It actually covers all the previous situations pretty well. Little startup and landing lag. The main problem is its commitment time while in the air, which makes you vulnerable if you miss and your opponent counterattacks.

d) Counterattack (D-air, etc)
- Re-grab on landing (Tenki, Umby) - 12% - same as usual. Pshielding counterattacks or running away then grabbing landing lag is not a bad way to start the match.
- U-air (Shadowlink84) - 15-21%. Thank goodness Sonic's U-air has decent priority. Can be problematic only if your opponent is too low for you to tip with the U-air, or if their DI sends them too far sideways for you to catch with U-air's first hit. Watch out for those characters with sweeping disjointed hitboxes ;d


Bonus 1:
Find an answer that answers as many of the above situations as possible at once, and explain how it does so.
- Double-take> Re-grab on landing (Umby) - [12%] This is probably the safest option. Keeps you out of range of counterattacks, can help keep you unpredictable, make the opponent feel stupid for airdodging, etc. Just don't miss the landing and you'll be fine.
- SH B-air FF> Re-grab on landing (Tenki) - [12-25%] B-air takes care of situation A while going for most damage, and shieldgrab camping landing spots takes care of B-D. The only problem here is if the opponent has hitstun resist (Samus.) and hits you before B-air can come out. Or if you miss the grab and/or opponent double jumps.
- SH> (delay)>N-air/(airdodge?) (ROOOOY!) - [12-23%] It's a pretty campy and defensive option, and you'll need pretty good reaction speed if you wanna be able to pull this off well. U-throw>(instant) N-air combos on most characters if they don't airdodge, but it's easier to miss if they DI incorrectly due to its range. If you delay before, N-air, you give your opponent some time to counterattack or double jump, and SH in general can keep you from chasing your opponent's DI since Sonic accelerates slowly in midair. On the up-side, if you miss the N-air and FF out of range of your opponent, it has little landing lag so you can recuperate from the miss.

Bonus 2:
Find the best answer to your opponent double jumping out of the U-throw (assuming that your opponent had enough hitstun resist or you didn't attack ASAP). For better answers, take into account that your opponent can double-jump left, up, or right, and at this point, can even attack you.
- Shieldgrab camp on high priority aerial chars, aerial on more vulnerable chars (ROOOOY!) - [12%-25%] Shieldgrab camping is pretty safe for the most part, as stressed enough with Umby's singular answer-to-all post. Making your followup based on what character you're fighting is important. Not bad `.`; Again, don't do rising aerials while your opponent is falling towards you. It screws up spacing if you're trying to U-air tip, or sets you up for an opponent's attack if he airdodges through you.
- Double-take> Re-grab on landing (Umby) - [12%] Safe, keeps you in control. Don't miss grabs.
- Full hop U-air. (djbrowny) - [17-19%] Can outprioritize most aerials from opponents. However, since your opponent has more time/space, it's airdodgeable. Just don't do a rising U-air while your opponent is falling and airdodging through you or the roles will be reversed.

OVERALL:
- The true nature of this first situation was Bonus 1 and 2. Umby's "re-grab" is the best option for the majority of the DI/countersituations, because it gives you the most control. 12 damage- not quite high enough to change things too much, and if you regrab, you can restart the situation for more damage. However, ROOOOY! stole the glory for Bonus 2 with a more 'dynamic' answer - some characters are more vulnerable to low juggles than others (eg, Ike) and you might be able to build some damage on them with some aerials before going for a regrab.

It's a pretty amazing starter move.

Anyway, so anyone who knows the matchup would know to DI towards you when you U-throw. However, you can 'pin' people's DI and trajectory by facing your back away from the stage. The general tendency is to DI towards the stage. However, smarter players would know to DI it correctly regardless of stage placement, because it's much more of a pain in the butt to followup when they do.

DI-pinning is how you can nail people with the "usually DI'd" U-throw>spring > aerial kill, or even U-throw KO's, because in that extreme case, if they DI towards you with your back facing the edge, they risk death, and if they don't, they 100% get star KO'd. It's amazing.

;]

 

[Kinzer]

Wait, banned for good? How did that happen?

And Megaman would just shoot Sonic down, remember? lol

He finally went too far I think.

And LOL oh yeah! After he kills Sonic, he will steal his sucky Brawl HA powers.

Steak cannot be comprehended.

 

[da K.I.D.]

quick note, DI ing up and towards for f throw, lead into a spring up air, a.k.a. the KID combo.
and that DI for down throw can set up for the anthinus combo.

also i expect taco cat to make another random appearance soon.
lol

 

[Sonic-Fan]

He finally went too far I think.

And LOL oh yeah! After he kills Sonic, he will steal his sucky Brawl HA powers.

Steak cannot be comprehended.

wouldn't he steal like...his running speed or something?

or shoot hedgehog ballz?

O.o

 

[Kinzer]

wouldn't he steal like...his running speed or something?

or shoot hedgehog ballz?

O.o

Nop.

Sonic sucks, and not even Megaman is learning to player.

 

[da K.I.D.]

boxobs sitch probably has something to do with this
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206159&page=4
i suggest that we have a moment of silence for his passing.


*moment passes*

WHOO glad thats over, whos ready to bust out the champagne!!!

lol jk madd <3 for boxob.

 

[Camalange]

quick note, DI ing up and towards for f throw, lead into a spring up air, a.k.a. the KID combo.

I've done that a couple times.
It's pretty epic :D

and that DI for down throw can set up for the anthinus combo.

Really? That's crazy...
(I'm assuming that spring>uair trap)
I'll look into that.

also i expect taco cat to make another random appearance soon.
lol

rofl, we actually got Blarfenzo.

boxobs sitch probably has something to do with this
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206159&page=4
i suggest that we have a moment of silence for his passing.

lol, you're too slow

@Everyone else: Megaman would put up a good fight, but Sonic would still own.

 

[Sonic-Fan]

I've done that a couple times.
It's pretty epic :D


Really? That's crazy...
(I'm assuming that spring>uair trap)
I'll look into that.



rofl, we actually got Blarfenzo.



lol, you're too slow

@Everyone else: Megaman would put up a good fight, but Sonic would still own.

exactly, I like megaman and all but sawnik would still steak the **** out of megaman.

 

[da K.I.D.]

trufax

10truefacts

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic>Megaman X>megaman

 

[B%B]

I don't think he's coming back, guys, the balls are inert. Boxob's gone remember?!

Uthrow's a beast in Brawl+

 

[Sonic-Fan]

I don't think he's coming back, guys, the balls are inert. Boxob's gone remember?!

Uthrow's a beast in Brawl+

is that you boxob?

lol

 

[B%B]

Yessir.

 

[Sonic-Fan]

Yessir.

jesus christ, you beat the system.

we mourned your loss for all of...5 seconds?

lol

 

[Camalange]

is that you boxob?

lol

YOU'RE TOO SLOW!

But on a serious note, I think we covered absolutely everything on Uthrow, so we can move on whenever you'd like ROOOY! Unless anyone else objects?

Spoiler

Don't get off-topic guys, you might get infraction *****.

 

[B%B]

WAIT.

Uthrow > Usmash at 0% works a lot of the time.

 

[Tenki]

Alot of the time that they don't DI right :d

So this is just an idea, but you know how people expect a spring U-air when U-thrown?

I used to kinda have the numbers in check, but I've stopped relying on U-air juggles that I'm not really sure anymore -

anyway, U-throw (NOT at a spring %) > double jump U-air to catch them out of airdodge > spring U/B-air

?

I'm gonna guess it's around 70-80% on a midweight.

Oh, and I guess if they DI correctly, it'll change it to run > single jump U-air

 

[infomon]

yeah, I think we kinda exhausted a lot of Uthrow discussion in Tenki's pop-quiz thread, and he already brought that here lol.

What moves are next? I think....... I think we're just about done, lol.
Oh wait!

• item-throw
• ledge-attack (both)
• missed-a-tech attack
• final smash

Edit: Another thing, I keep forgetting to try... Uthrow (mid-high percents) > SDJ forward > jump back and Bair

Like, Sonic's jumps can go at such a nice low angle, and jumping backwards out of an SDJ looks extra tricky. If you're SDJ'ing away from someone, they won't expect you to suddenly triangle into their face with a Bair. Just a thot.

 

[Tenki]

Edit: Another thing, I keep forgetting to try... Uthrow (mid-high percents) > SDJ forward > jump back and Bair

Like, Sonic's jumps can go at such a nice low angle, and jumping backwards out of an SDJ looks extra tricky. If you're SDJ'ing away from someone, they won't expect you to suddenly triangle into their face with a Bair. Just a thot.

Ooh. I kinda do that with normal jump/double jumps, specifically for characters like Lucario, who have a significant annoyance with the D-air thing.

I guess instant grounded SDJ (from down-B) might not be too bad :3

 

[B%B]

Alot of the time that they don't DI right :d

So this is just an idea, but you know how people expect a spring U-air when U-thrown?

I used to kinda have the numbers in check, but I've stopped relying on U-air juggles that I'm not really sure anymore -

anyway, U-throw (NOT at a spring %) > double jump U-air to catch them out of airdodge > spring U/B-air

?

I'm gonna guess it's around 70-80% on a midweight.

Oh, and I guess if they DI correctly, it'll change it to run > single jump U-air

You got the percents right, I've been doing this. and, if they DI in front of me at the same percent. Sometimes to switch it up I'll go for spring > ASAP Dair. It sets up for a fair cause it usually semispikes them.

 

[Sonic-Fan]

yeah, I think we kinda exhausted a lot of Uthrow discussion in Tenki's pop-quiz thread, and he already brought that here lol.

What moves are next? I think....... I think we're just about done, lol.
Oh wait!

• item-throw
• ledge-attack (both)
• missed-a-tech attack
• final smash

Edit: Another thing, I keep forgetting to try... Uthrow (mid-high percents) > SDJ forward > jump back and Bair

Like, Sonic's jumps can go at such a nice low angle, and jumping backwards out of an SDJ looks extra tricky. If you're SDJ'ing away from someone, they won't expect you to suddenly triangle into their face with a Bair. Just a thot.

it does seem like it would catch someone off guard, nice tactic.

and you forgot sonic's rising attack from when he's knocked down

also, how the hell did Kinzer get banned???

 

[Tenki]

You got the percents right

2222 good lol

it does seem like it would catch someone off guard, nice tactic.

and you forgot sonic's rising attack from when he's knocked down

also, how the hell did Kinzer get banned???

Ledge attack, getup attack, they could all go together, if we're doing them in the first place.

Double posting, and pokemon fights.

 

[Sonic-Fan]

2222 good lol



Ledge attack, getup attack, they could all go together, if we're doing them in the first place.

Double posting, and pokemon fights.

true.

and double posting can get you banned?? thanks for the heads up...

 

[da K.I.D.]

if all else fails remember your kill percents

iirc, its 190 on mario with DI on final D
which should translate to 230 vs D3 with full DI
and 160 on jiggles

@infzy, that junk is sex, now, i have absolutely no reason to not use up throw in ever conceivable situation

 

[Tenki]

if all else fails remember your kill percents

iirc, its 190 on mario with DI on final D
which should translate to 230 vs D3 with full DI
and 160 on jiggles

@infzy, that junk is sex, now, i have absolutely no reason to not use up throw in ever conceivable situation

It's also usually safer to add 10% for forward DI lol. When I did a U-throw finish on a Snake in my last tourney, I pummeled him a bit over 240% and "pinned" his DI by being closer to the edge and facing my back towards the edge. It barely a kill lol.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Just about everyone knows the whole 'U Throw ---> Spring ---> Uair Kill' nowadays...how do I get around them getting around this? They always air dodge/move

 

[infomon]

If you think they'll airdodge, just time your Spring and/or Uair differently, to catch them after the airdodge

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its easier to perform the move at around 100%. Roughly 110% on characters like Mario.
You actually have enough time to spring and then Bair them.

>_>

 

[ROOOOY!]

This is the last time I shamelessly bump this, I'm just gonna let it die if it fades away again.


Right, so basically what I've done is written down a very brief summary of what moves a certain 'playstyle' of Mario will use. We've gotta figure out ways around then and to counter them.

Obviously you're going to want to keep an aerial Mario grounded, although utilt does trade hits with bair, probably Mario's most dangerous approach.

Yeah, speak in vague generalities, turn this into the new spam topic, whatever.

 

[Kinzer]

Grounded Mario!

Mario is jealous of the sneakers.

No, of course this is a bthrow. Thankfully for us, it is quite a common trait for most elements of Mario's game to have low range. His grab range is no exception, being one of the shortest in the game. His grab game is pretty poor in comparison to the rest of the cast, in that they don't really lead into anything. Well, u/f/b don't, anyway. Bthrow will be killing you at about 160% dependant on where you are getting grabbed on the stage, so watch for it.

Dthrow at a low percent is what most good Mario's will use, hoping for it to lead to a chain of utilts. Thankfully, we have a spring with invincibility frames at start up, so you shouldn't be taking too much damage from a dthrow. Mario's other tilts are pretty poor in comparison to utilt, with dtilt popping the opponent right up in front of him and giving too little hitstun with too long an ending lag, it usually results in Mario getting punished. Ftilt is okay, as far as attacks go, it's nothing special.

Fireballs may be used to force an approach, but thanks to spinshot and having a high ground speed in general this isn't difficult. Where Mario really shines is in his smashes. His up smash has good priority, and disjointed range to the sides of him and comes out fast, making it pretty difficult to avoid and punish. His dsmash comes out very fast from a spotdodge, and considering Sonic's dsmash is slow to start up anyway, you don't want to be caught in a spotdodge war with him. His fsmash kills faster than anything Sonic has when aimed upwards, and also has more range when stutter stepped than Sonic's own stutter stepped fsmash. Thankfully, a Mario won't be using it too much during the match, he'll be saving it for the kill.

So, how do we counter this?
Suggestions on moves, quotes, that kinda thing will go here. Should we keep grounded or aerial? That kinda thing.


Aerial Mario (Jump Man!)

Mario's are seen as a far bigger threat in the air then on the ground, and for good reason. Dthrow is usually used to get the opponent into the air, then they are followed with nairs, and uairs. Uair is a great move simply because of the speed and range it gives, allowing Mario to somewhat effectively juggle in the air. It doesn't even need to be used against an aerial opponent, it can be used to approach a grounded aerial with. Nair is a sex kick, it's knockback is higher when the hitbox first comes out then it is when the hitbox has been out for a while. It can be used to SH approach, but it doesn't have great range despite having good priority, which means if it's telegraphed it's fairly easy to shield grab.

One aerial less susceptable to shieldgrabbing is his dair. Now, shield pressure is very important for Mario's approaching. You know the characters that love to shieldgrab Mario because of his low range? Well, shield pressure allows that to not happen, and D-air gives out that shield pressure they need. They abuse it on those who love to abuse the shield grabbing. Also good for happy-spotdodgers, and it's last hit has big priority and sends the opponent up into the air, where Mario prefers them to juggle.

Bair is a good move for obvious reasons. Can be used offensively and defensively, has big range, good priority. It's a very safe aerial, Mario can float in and glide in and out bairing and it's pretty hard to shieldgrab him for it. Mario's Cape is mentionable here, for edgeguarding and projectile swatting, as are his Fireball's which he can fullhop and shorthop to force approaches. However, these two specials aren't really god for much in the Sonic v Mario match-up so don't need to be reviewed too in depth.

How would we counter this, guys?
Steak

I'm posting this so I have something to refer to without having to open a different page.

Comments pending.

Now we can get to the interesting stuff!

Hey Roy, you might want to make a link to the thread I believe Napi made quite a while ago that was well-made on how to counter MK's MT and SL.

*Ahem*

While Mario's grab-game is not the greatest, it definetely has it's uses.

For one, B-Throw is d*** strong, and D-Throw at low %ages leads into combos... but you already knew that.

His DSmash comes out about as fast as MK's, except I think has a little less K.O. power, the 2nd hit is not as fast, and has the same lag on it, treat it like you're fighting MK.

USmash is d*** hard to punish for Sonic, I don't know how to work around this.

 

[Sonic-Fan]

ummm....
don't get hit??

ehehehe....

I honestly don't know... >.>

 

[Chis]

So you've given up? :/

 

[Sonic-Fan]

So you've given up? :/

no...mario matchups for me are just weird...

I just...do whatever...and it usually works.

I can't really explain it...

 

[Chis]

I was talking to Roy Sonic-Fan.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I've not given up, I wrote that to let people know that if this doesn't really generate any interest or input then it's dying.

What'd be the point in doing another 100+ write-ups (4 for each character) if nothing's coming of it?

 

[Kinzer]

You out to follow RD3's guideline for moveset counters, an you should be set.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'll look tomorrow, I'm off to sleep now.

Haunter used Hypnosis!