Sonic vs. Tornado/Shuttle Loop

[Tenki]

Errr...it's kinda a half joke... Who's sig said that if all the Sonics fusion danced we still would suck?

Anyway...miscommunication brew.

I forgot who had it in their sig, but it's definitely a memphis quote.

and there is a ton of miscommunication in the Sonic boards. especially when it comes to...

 

[Espy Rose]

First time I read that quote, I almost fell to the floor laughing.

 

[Greenstreet]

He's not freakin Voldemort...lol.

Sonic is a hedgehog.
Orochi doesnt play much anymore.
Napi is a mad video maker.
InterimofZeal is a nice guy I guess.
Camalange merged his two names to come up with his username, much like napi.
X posts alot of tournament results
5% is the damage of a side b hop
8% is the damage that dair inflicts
0 is the amount of good sonics there are.

 

[Napilopez]

Haha, ShadowLink has that quote I'm pretty sure XD.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

He, Tenki, nice sig! but you forgot the (who is still a man) Yuna uses.

 

[da K.I.D.]

eh... we all know my sig is betah.

also, you are right, there are no good sonics.

i just happen to be great

 

[Espy Rose]

eh... we all know my sig is betah.

also, you are right, there are no good sonics.

i just happen to be great

...

Guess that makes me extraordinarily fantastic.

 

[SonicX580]

Sorry SonicX580, but I thought you would have realised that was a shot at Sonic's low tier placement, and not a shot at your skill level. What I meant by the statement was that because you play Sonic as a character, it doesn't matter what controller type you use, you'll suck anyway...because Sonic sucks.

Errr...it's kinda a half joke... Who's sig said that if all the Sonics fusion danced we still would suck?

Anyway...miscommunication brew.

Don't worry about it Greenstreet and thanks for the explanation.

 

[Tenki]

Hoorah, I can play a bit.

I tested MK's F-air and B-air, and there's definitely noticeable landing lag, albeit small, but it's there.

And if you try to SH F-air - well, Sonic's F-air is shorter in duration. Sonic can double jump before he lands.

MK cannot do anything but fall after doing a SH F-air.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing for him, but then there's that little window of landing lag, regardless of FF, but he has it.

yeah.

and wow, his retreating aerial spacing feels really bleh compared to like, Marth's.

Well, I do kinda suck with MK, so I might be doing something wrong.

Something interesting is MK's U-air is his fastest aerial (duh) in duration, and he can actually jump faster if he uses U-air as he jumps than if he doesn't. It's hilarious.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats what makes teh BBQBroken combo possible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLAWfhhSpv0

 

[Napilopez]

Hoorah, I can play a bit.

1) I tested MK's F-air and B-air, and there's definitely noticeable landing lag, albeit small, but it's there.

And if you try to SH F-air - well, Sonic's F-air is shorter in duration. Sonic can double jump before he lands.

MK cannot do anything but fall after doing a SH F-air.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing for him, but then there's that little window of landing lag, regardless of FF, but he has it.

yeah.

2) and wow, his retreating aerial spacing feels really bleh compared to like, Marth's.

Well, I do kinda suck with MK, so I might be doing something wrong.

3) Something interesting is MK's U-air is his fastest aerial (duh) in duration, and he can actually jump faster if he uses U-air as he jumps than if he doesn't. It's hilarious.

1) hehe, its what I've been saying on the boards. Mks moves have very little lag, but, they have lag nonetheless, which is why I was saying Sonic is one of the best to punish it.

2) Yea, Both MKs air speed AND air acceleration are mediocre. Thats why marth feels so much better, cuz he is superior in both of these factors. MKs airspeed(or at lest when not gliding I assume) Is the fifth worst in the game. His aerial acceleration doesn't seem much superior to Sonics, which is why he doesnt exactly shine at weaving. But thats because MK generally doesn't need to, a soon as he lands theres only a tiny window to punish him anyways, because he can just buffer into a tilt or something.

3) Oh wow I never knew that, that is quite funny.

EDIT: LOL OMG hahaha thats actually a true combo? Wow lulz, I wonder who else it works on.

 

[Espy Rose]

Well, I went to another tournament today (I'll post it later in the results forum, as soon as I get all of the information), and...

I lost to DMK again ;_;

However, I DID implement alot of the things we discussed in herr about the Tornado, and came to a moderate conclusion:

1. Uptilted fsmash works, but is very situational and overall unreliable. I did get a KO or two out of it, so it's applicable to a certain degree.

2. Homing Attack: I only tried this 6 times. However, of the 6 times I tried it, 5 times I was able to hit him out of it, even as he was retreating. One time I used it too early and slammed into his side, so I got caught in the tornado. Overall it seemed to work quite well.

3. UpB:

This is the one I was the most impressed about. My assumptions were spot on, as were some other people's when they requested to use UpB. The tornado would hit, and the MK would accidently sideB into a Drill Rush or whatever, and was easily punishable.

I used it a good 10 times, and 8-9 times I was able to successfully grab him, or shielded as he did UpB and I retaliated with fair.

I even got him to drill off of the level. I would've gotten the KO too, but I was unable to get to the ledge in time. However, it is seen to obviously work, and I was deeply impressed with how much easier it was for me to deal with 'nado.

Although I still lost, the matches were much closer than those recorded at Gamelot 2.

We ended up going 3-2 in Winner's Finals, then 3-1 in Grand Finals.

Overall, good stuff.

-----

Unfortunately, there was no videos recorded, so there is no footage of me ****** his MK, or vice versa.

I implore other Sonic's to UpB away and dair when MK whorenados your direction. It's amazing.

 

[Napilopez]

:D

Yay, I is proud of you Puffy McPuff. It seems this thread was indeed worth it afterall.

Yay for being right about HA. 5/6 times is quite awesome.

That UpB thing sounds too good though. With HA you hit him out, but don't really get the chance to punish, but with this, MK is seriously put at a disadvantage, so yayyy.

Lol, I'm quite Uber Anti Ban, but I kinda want him banned just so you can take 1st place as you deserved XD.

I'm guessing that since you dealt with Nado so much better, he had to revert to playing smarter somewhat, lol.

Could you explain how exactly you used upB? I'm assuming you made MK bounce off the grounded spring? Or do you mean hitting him out of it by Using UpB above him?

So wait, you won in Winners finals, but then lost in Grand Finals im guessing?

Either way, congrats dude. DMK is like, you're rival now. So you'll beat him soon enough =P

 

[Espy Rose]

Could you explain how exactly you used upB? I'm assuming you made MK bounce off the grounded spring? Or do you mean hitting him out of it by Using UpB above him?

So wait, you won in Winners finals, but then lost in Grand Finals im guessing?

Either way, congrats dude. DMK is like, you're rival now. So you'll beat him soon enough =P

Groudned up-B. Most MK's nado slightly above the ground, around the level the spring launches you. He'd get near it, bounce, then drill rush out of the bounce, being around mid-level with the level. I'd then capitalize on the lag and such.

No, I lost both. Knocked into losers by DMK, then lost in Grand Finals.

I played a guy named FireLuigi, whos Diddy was awesome.

However, I got control of the naners, and ***** accordingly. I wish there was videos, those Diddy matches were the highlight for me.

I could consider DMK a rival, and will.

That, and I 2-stocked his MK at low % on CORNERIA.

 

[Chis]

Probably pointed out already, 1:15~

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ykZiW77dX14&feature=related

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah, you did.

I don't think shuttle loop is really an issue for Sonic anymore. He can easily handle it.

 

[Chis]

I found this topic slightly interesting: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203145

 

[Tenki]

almost a S u c c e s s .

wooow. your success rate is too good.

Probably pointed out already, 1:15~

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ykZiW77dX14&feature=related

yay phoenix dark.

Yeah, you did.

I don't think shuttle loop is really an issue for Sonic anymore. He can easily handle it.

yush.

about 2 hours ago, I played Brawl with a friend of mine and almost 3stocked his Marth with MK just copying crap that people do to me online (lol d-throw [bait bad DI] > F-air; chase Marth off/under / into the corner of the level with F-air and D-air; bad DI shuttle loop KO; surprisebuttsecks D-smash; fastfall F-air; invinci-frame Shuttle Loop > Glide attack) and improvised a bit - normal glide > glide attack > up-B. It was funny because he was doing the wrong DI forever.

I told him to try some of the stuff I did and played as Sonic:
- Dash attack caught the landings of retreating F-airs.
- Missed/early N-airs were destroyed by Sonic's F-air.
- Shield a Tornado > quickly release shield and punish - success.
- Shield a shuttle loop > F-air out of shield - success.
- MK by the ledge generally got grabbed if he did shuttle loop or a ledgehopped aerial. Sometime he'd airdodge past the ledge, then I'd b-throw.

His MK isn't that good, but I generally tried to take 'vs-move' analysis instead of behavior punishments in mind.

On a random note, he played Diddy (one of his mains), and I used those "new tricks" from the banana thread and superwon with raeptricks. Diddy is so much more fun to play against offline. And MK isn't as hard to punish offline as he is online lol.

yai for wifi mindreading training.

PS, the U-air combo wouldn't work in real games I think, because stale moves = less hitstun = easier to airdodge or double jump out of it.

 

[Espy Rose]

wooow. your success rate is too good.

Was this sarcastic? Or were you quite serious?

Yeah, I still lost. I was dissapointed, but I'll get him next time. I just have to mix up approaches, and bait his 'nado into springs and HA more often. Despite how well HA and UpB did in the matches, I still got caught by quite alot of tornados.

I just need to stop making stupid decisions.

Tenki's quick guide to ****** scrubby MKs

Yeah. Shuttle loop stopped being a problem for me before I even started playing offline. Online mindgame practice is too good.

PS, the U-air combo wouldn't work in real games I think, because stale moves = less hitstun = easier to airdodge or double jump out of it.

Was this addressed at me?

 

[Tenki]

Was this sarcastic? Or were you quite serious?

Yeah, I still lost. I was dissapointed, but I'll get him next time. I just have to mix up approaches, and bait his 'nado into springs and HA more often. Despite how well HA and UpB did in the matches, I still got caught by quite alot of tornados.

I just need to stop making stupid decisions.

I was serious. They were too good. Failing only one homing attack, and getting a majority of spring traps to work is like, unbelievable lol.

keep in mind the campier/MKs more familiar with the matchup might just use the spring to 'springcancel' their attacks. He doesn't know it yet, but instant double jump> F-air? cape? restart a normal tornado? That's why I mentioned it as a panic/adrenaline trap.

Better luck next time - just don't over do it ;]

Tenkiguidetololling@moves

Yeah. Shuttle loop stopped being a problem for me before I even started playing offline. Online mindgame practice is too good.

I'm not sure if it would have made a difference if he was a scrubby or a good MK.

pseudoquote:
- Dash attack caught the landings of retreating F-airs.
- Missed/early N-airs were destroyed by Sonic's F-air.
- Shield a Tornado > quickly release shield and punish - success.
- Shield a shuttle loop > F-air out of shield - success.
- MK by the ledge generally got grabbed if he did shuttle loop or a ledgehopped aerial. Sometime he'd airdodge past the ledge, then I'd b-throw. ?

Aside from the ledge actions (though I don't know what else MK would do off the ledge) and maybe the N-air thing, do any of these not apply to better MK players?

EDIT: LOL OMG hahaha thats actually a true combo? Wow lulz, I wonder who else it works on.

 

[da K.I.D.]

no it was meant at me,

and in a real game stale moves would lessen the knockback therefore allowing the Mk to actually up air MORE before nado-ing at the top of the level

p.s. puffy, count the nados and change your sig.
but congratz on 2nd place

 

[JMan8891]

I know you said my Donic is sloer Puff, but bear in mind my agro Sonic has been seen in 7 tourny's by the same attendees, it wore thin quick. I got punished so hard i reverted a bit lest there a nub, lol.
In my MK vid, R3, i UpB to Dair ftw... works well but can get punished.
I "slowed down" to minimize risks, and due to lacking my Wii atm

 

[Espy Rose]

no it was meant at me,

and in a real game stale moves would lessen the knockback therefore allowing the Mk to actually up air MORE before nado-ing at the top of the level

p.s. puffy, count the nados and change your sig.
but congratz on 2nd place

How many nados were averaged for the last time?

NVM, I read my third post on the first page: 34 average nados per round. His nado game was consistent as last time, so I'll put that into consideration...and...

2-1 = 3 matches. 34 * 3 = 102 Tornados
3-1 = 4 matches. 34 * 4 = 136 Tornados

102+136= 238 More nados.

408+238= 646 Appromixate for 19 matches.

 

[da K.I.D.]

el
owe
elle

 

[JMan8891]

Thats spam if i ever saw it... nods*

 

[Ijuka]

Assuming that Tornado still follows the 10% rule, if you do an attack 11%+, you should be able to clang with it without your attack being stopped. You should use a move that can reach his hitbox though - there are tons of tiny attackboxes that you can clang with that surround his hitbox, but if you really wanna beat the nado, you'd have to use a move that outdamages it and hits at least bottom-center- at least, that's where I nailed those F-smashes that killed the MK I played against.



I'm not sure what you mean by dulling it, since shield doesn't count in stale moves, AFAIK.

btw R4ZE, I tried your idea again, I had an up-tilted F-smash and I got another dropping glide-attack on my face. Thanks.

=.=;

10% rule is for projectiles.

 

[Tenki]

eh it seems to work with things like MK's glide attack and grounded moves :l

 

[Chis]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205048

Can we make a anti-Metaknight guide with links and put it on the first page of this thread?

 

[infomon]

Assuming that Tornado still follows the 10% rule, if you do an attack 11%+, you should be able to clang with it without your attack being stopped. You should use a move that can reach his hitbox though - there are tons of tiny attackboxes that you can clang with that surround his hitbox, but if you really wanna beat the nado, you'd have to use a move that outdamages it and hits at least bottom-center- at least, that's where I nailed those F-smashes that killed the MK I played against.

Oh, I guess I missed this.

Tornado follows the 10% rule, when it's on the ground. Raise the tornado a little off the floor, and suddenly you can't stop the tornado unless you hit MK's hurtbox. When it's on the ground, you just need to overlap a hitbox against its hitbox, and you'll both return to a neutral state undamaged. (Exception for weird projectiles, like laser-type projectiles, that go through hitboxes.) Oh and if your attack would cause more than tornado+10%, it won't be interrupted by the clash, obv.

 

[Tenki]

@chis:
wut?

in a nutshell:
think and react faster, DI better

-Be ready to shield more instead of trying to beat out attacks head on
-When shielding, release shield as soon as humanly possible after the attack is over
-When not being hit by a kill move, DI and float away from MK.
-When being hit by a possible kill move, DI up and towards MK.

?_?

Oh, I guess I missed this.

Tornado follows the 10% rule, when it's on the ground. Raise the tornado a little off the floor, and suddenly you can't stop the tornado unless you hit MK's hurtbox. When it's on the ground, you just need to overlap a hitbox against its hitbox, and you'll both return to a neutral state undamaged. (Exception for weird projectiles, like laser-type projectiles, that go through hitboxes.) Oh and if your attack would cause more than tornado+10%, it won't be interrupted by the clash, obv.

Yeah.

What I meant was that some people have a tendency to use a ground move to 'beat' an aerial tornado from the ground, and it gets clanged with/interrupted, and then the followup hits will beat you.

By suggesting that you do more than 10 damage, it makes sure that your attack isn't interrupted, so all that stops you is your accuracy in timing it to overlap with MK's hurtbox.

edit:
KID is unbanned.

 

[Chis]

...That works too I guess.

 

[infomon]

What I meant was that some people have a tendency to use a ground move to 'beat' an aerial tornado from the ground, and it gets clanged with/interrupted, and then the followup hits will beat you.

Yeah, that doesn't work. The tornado is so rapidly multi-hitting, even aerials like G&W's turtle don't work reliably; that's an aerial vs. air tornado.

By suggesting that you do more than 10 damage, it makes sure that your attack isn't interrupted, so all that stops you is your accuracy in timing it to overlap with MK's hurtbox.

Ah yes. You mean, do more than 10 damage more than the tornado's hitboxes, which slightly increase in power over time. And it's still freaking hard to land something like that on MK's hurtbox before your hurtbox gets exposed to the 'nado

and w00t, welcome back KID.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why was he banned again?

 

[Tenki]

Most likely flaming and double posts galore.

 

[Emerald CHA0S]

I was wondering how U-Smashing compared to Tornado

Does it get beat before you get close or could you maybe hyphen smash or DAC and get MK with it?

 

[Tenki]

Since the individual hits of U-smash do less than 10% of the tornado's damage, it will clang itself and force Sonic into the flinch animation, and Sonic will proceed to get hit.

 

[Emerald CHA0S]

That sucks >_>

It's still nice to see that Sakurai was TOTALLY not biased when making Brawl >_>

 

[Tenki]

well, all multihit moves are like that lol.

that's why it's generally easy to outprioritize him XD

 

[da K.I.D.]

who?

mk or sonic?

 

[Tenki]

Metaknight of course :l