Sonic vs. Tornado/Shuttle Loop

[da K.I.D.]

Hmm, the tornado is annoying to deal with. >_<
There really is no reliable counter. Spring under his tornado, him go up, he uses Side-B? =/

thats what i was thinking, it would ensure many lulz

but can somebody link puffballs match?

by the way, over the weekend, i got beat by a pika player who did the exact same thing

 

[Napilopez]

Lol, KID, the thread with the matches are in the first post XD:

http://www.smashboards.net/showthread.php?t=199464

Check em out, theres some serious awesomeness, especially in the the first 5.

The last 4 are simply agonizingly painfully spammy to watch.

Oh and about Making MK hit the spring, its what I suggested earlier D: =P I was just wondering if it was a viable option, since MK is at the center of the nado. Hmmm.

I don't think you could spring right under the tournado, because chances are you'll be hit. Remember UpB isn't immediately invincy. So thats why I suggest running towards MK as he approached you with nado, and then using UpB right before the Nado reached Sonic. This way, you won't be hit by the nado, as you will release before the nado touches you, and then you can simply fly thru the nado using UpB's invulnerability. MK, because he was moving forward, will hit the spring and be sent flying upwards, perhaps and hopefully resulting in a SideB which you can punish, similar to the suggestion Tenki had. The problem is, I'm not even sure if MK in the Nado will bounce off the spring =/ Can someone do some quick testing of just that? It could be very helpful.


But so far actually, I like CaliburChamp's idea the best. Ledge camp. If MK goes off stage with nade, lol he dies. i can imagine the instant edgehog being more reliable, since it makes it less likely for you to be punished.

 

[Tenki]

I don't think you could spring right under the tournado, because chances are you'll be hit. Remember UpB isn't immediately invincy. So thats why I suggest running towards MK as he approached you with nado, and then using UpB right before the Nado reached Sonic. This way, you won't be hit by the nado, as you will release before the nado touches you, and then you can simply fly thru the nado using UpB's invulnerability. MK, because he was moving forward, will hit the spring and be sent flying upwards, perhaps and hopefully resulting in a SideB which you can punish, similar to the suggestion Tenki had. The problem is, I'm not even sure if MK in the Nado will bounce off the spring =/ Can someone do some quick testing of just that? It could be very helpful.

Nah, the best times I've gotten them to work were running away from the tornado and using the spring about halfway to the edge. I don't D-air nor fastfall immediately, since MK's I'm sure are quite aware of that by now. So they'll have to focus chasing you. It's a game of divided attention.

Of course, I've also had MK's bounce off of the spring and do a higher tornado. By no means is that a bad thing, since tornado's fall is oh-so-punishable.

What's bad is when the MK player catches on and starts to use the spring as a 'reset'/cancel point for the tornado and double jump immediately, but again, that's still having the MK play according to the placement that you create.

Remember, mindgames aren't techniques. If you use them too obviously, they lose their flavor, like unsalted steak. So keep it fresh. Preferrably for the kill moves.

But so far actually, I like CaliburChamp's idea the best. Ledge camp. If MK goes off stage with nade, lol he dies. i can imagine the instant edgehog being more reliable, since it makes it less likely for you to be punished.

So MK cancels the tornado near the ledge, then camps your ledge actions. Good?

 

[Napilopez]

Nah, the best times I've gotten them to work were running away from the tornado and using the spring about halfway to the edge. I don't D-air nor fastfall immediately, since MK's I'm sure are quite aware of that by now. So they'll have to focus chasing you. It's a game of divided attention.

Of course, I've also had MK's bounce off of the spring and do a higher tornado. By no means is that a bad thing, since tornado's fall is oh-so-punishable.

What's bad is when the MK player catches on and starts to use the spring as a 'reset'/cancel point for the tornado and double jump immediately, but again, that's still having the MK play according to the placement that you create.

Remember, mindgames aren't techniques. If you use them too obviously, they lose their flavor, like unsalted steak. So keep it fresh. Preferrably for the kill moves.



So MK cancels the tornado near the ledge, then camps your ledge actions. Good?

Why yes indeed =Pjk.

Valid point, but is it that hard for Sonic to get back on stage safely? He has several pretty good options. Sprin invincy frames, use that SideB edgehugging thingamajigg. Drop down, midair into uair. Mix in an HA once in a while. But I honestly don't know, and I'd have to put it to use in practice.

But if Mk wants to do another tornado tho... then lol. Himm will Uair go through tornado with the second hiit? I'm positive Sonic won't get hurt if spaced well, because its so disjointed, but IDK if meta will either. Not saying thats reall an option, just wondering.



Time to see Brock Obama. Who owns a llama that has so much drama. I would rhyme with yo mama, but that ain't my panorama.

/endrap

 

[Tenki]

Why yes indeed =Pjk.

Valid point, but is it that hard for Sonic to get back on stage safely? He has several pretty good options. Sprin invincy frames, use that SideB edgehugging thingamajigg. Drop down, midair into uair. Mix in an HA once in a while. But I honestly don't know, and I'd have to put it to use in practice.

But if Mk wants to do another tornado tho... then lol. Himm will Uair go through tornado with the second hiit? I'm positive Sonic won't get hurt if spaced well, because its so disjointed, but IDK if meta will either. Not saying thats reall an option, just wondering.



Time to see Brock Obama. Who owns a llama that has so much drama. I would rhyme with yo mama, but that ain't my panorama.

/endrap

Spring is generally not difficult to camp. D;

Springvincibility doesn't last long, and I guess it wouldn't be bad if he was directly over you, but if he's somewhat sideways, he can still hit you with something like shuttle loop in the 'vulnerability frames' between invincibility frames and airdodge time.

U-air's 2nd hit is like what, 6%? That's still under 11% (assuming each hit of the tornado does 1%), so they'll clang. The only times you should knock him out of one of his specials in the air are when you out-clang him (side-B vs F-air), hit around his attackbox (eg, above tornado, under his F-air, above his up-B), or completely outdamage his special's damage with yours while overlapping your attackbox over his hitbox (eg, charged F-smash on nado)

 

[CaliburChamp]

Let me clarify what I meant to say. Whenever MK tornado's toward Sonic, run from it and instant edge hog or whatever to grab onto the ledge. You don't want to stay on edgehogged for long, because MK will try to start edge guarding you from there, so before he does that, make sure to get back up onto the stage, and if he continues spamming tornado, keep repeating this strategy.
Sonic has many options from the edge, so MK can't really edge guard him too well if you can predict the MK's actions.

 

[Napilopez]

Anyone try vsdj against tornado? lolll. I doubt it woudl do anything, but I havent heard anyone mention it =P.

 

[Umby]

I have. I get caught in it every time.

 

[Napilopez]

Ahh *tears* was hoping that might be the hidden anti tornado tech no one new about =P.

 

[R4ZE]

tenki.. for the glide attack.. idk wut to tell you, i have killed the glide attack with u-Fsmash soo many times, and i support it still.. (is it possible that it only works if u charge fsmash? maybe it deals more damage while charged, thus causing more priority?)

but i mean if ur still having trouble with it, then why not just spot dodge? ? roll? hell. run toward MK, and do a pivot smash while he tries to execute the glide attack.


u know. mind game his ***, all he can do is go foward, up and down. does U-smash atleast clank mk's glide attack?

 

[Tenki]

tenki.. for the glide attack.. idk wut to tell you, i have killed the glide attack with u-Fsmash soo many times, and i support it still.. (is it possible that it only works if u charge fsmash? maybe it deals more damage while charged, thus causing more priority?)

but i mean if ur still having trouble with it, then why not just spot dodge? ? roll? hell. run toward MK, and do a pivot smash while he tries to execute the glide attack.


u know. mind game his ***, all he can do is go foward, up and down. does U-smash atleast clank mk's glide attack?

It's not that my F-smash isn't BEATING Glide Attack.

It's more that the MK hits from ABOVE the F-smash, like, almost vertically above Sonic.

I'd rather F-air or U-air against it.

 

[Napilopez]

Spring is generally not difficult to camp. D;

Springvincibility doesn't last long, and I guess it wouldn't be bad if he was directly over you, but if he's somewhat sideways, he can still hit you with something like shuttle loop in the 'vulnerability frames' between invincibility frames and airdodge time.

U-air's 2nd hit is like what, 6%? That's still under 11% (assuming each hit of the tornado does 1%), so they'll clang. The only times you should knock him out of one of his specials in the air are when you out-clang him (side-B vs F-air), hit around his attackbox (eg, above tornado, under his F-air, above his up-B), or completely outdamage his special's damage with yours while overlapping your attackbox over his hitbox (eg, charged F-smash on nado)

I can't ever remember often being camped effectivel from spring, but IDK =P.

But you're about the uair thing. I wasn't thinking the 10 percent rule applied to the aerial VS special sitch.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I gimped a whornado MK with a spring lol. Just don't rush him too much with Spin Dashes .

 

[CaliburChamp]

The best thing you can do is run to the ledge and ledge camp until MT ends. Or you can use a grounded spring and hope for MK's MT to land on the spring while MK is helpless in his fall state.

 

[R4ZE]

u could also just punch MK in the face.

it feels good and it works.

 

[SonicX580]

I just finish practing with meta knight and I discovred who to stop his tornado if you some how hit meta knight in the middle in the tornado it will stop meta knight in his tracks but remember this is difficult to do.

 

[Tenki]

ROFLMAO.

Congratulations.


Now you've caught up with the rest of smashboards on Tornado. Do you have any consistent ways to set it up so the MK doing tornado can't just pull backwards and screw up your spacing?

 

[Napilopez]

Your a funny guy SX580. XD. I wonder if you're somehow related to KASR.

 

[thecatinthehat]

ROFLMAO.

Congratulations.


Now you've caught up with the rest of smashboards on Tornado. Do you have any consistent ways to set it up so the MK doing tornado can't just pull backwards and screw up your spacing?

Lol tenki.

 

[Camalange]

Your a funny guy SX580. XD. I wonder if you're somehow related to KASR.

...maybe it's the re-incarnation...

NAH!

 

[aeghrur]

u could also just punch MK in the face.

it feels good and it works.

I prefer using a weapon. It's more... satisfying.

 

[da K.I.D.]

we have already exusted all of our options on how to beat these moves and the long and short of it is that, those two moves(among others) **** sonic and there really is not super secret highly (or even mildly) effective way for sonic to combat it, other than, as champ said, just running away. or relying on(once again) mindgames to get through it. thats why sonic is so bad, and so incredibly hard to play, every single move he makes requires mindgames and prediction and setups

 

[SonicX580]

...maybe it's the re-incarnation...

NAH!

No I'am not a re-incarnation.

 

[TheDogInTheSombrero]

No I'am not related to KASR I don't even know who he is.

He created invented gave birth to steak

 

[SonicX580]

Your a funny guy SX580. XD. I wonder if you're somehow related to KASR.

I'am not related to KASR I never even met the guy.

 

[SonicX580]

ROFLMAO.

Congratulations.


Now you've caught up with the rest of smashboards on Tornado. Do you have any consistent ways to set it up so the MK doing tornado can't just pull backwards and screw up your spacing?

My guess is to do a downward dair or a homing attack in the middle of the tornado.

 

[Taco cat]

My guess is to do a downward dair or a homing attack in the middle of the tornado.

you can redirect dair? sonic is so deep wow

 

[R4ZE]

ur mom is so deep.

 

[Napilopez]

I'm just going to repost what I said to Puffball in the tournament thread.
----------------------------------

i would definately recommend you try, as there weere times I saw you directly above nado and a spring would have killed him, but you went for the bair instead XD

Another thing, I saw you hit him out of nado quite a few times with bair. Most of the time the nado beat your bair is because you oft tried to hit with the front part of the bair, rather than with Sonics foot.

As of now how I see it, Use spring when directly above. HA when above and to the sides, or parallel with the top of the nado. Bair to approach head on from the air, but so that you are not facing MK, hitting him with the foot of the bair. Its disjointedness will stop you from being hit. From the ground, fsmash.
--------------------------------------------------

Watch the videos closely. There are times where puffball had no options, but he actually could have beaten out Nado several times if he made different choices. again, he wasnt use to that kind of spam. Unfortunately, intelligent spam. When espy actually used the right moves, he handled the nado very well. If he takes into account this advice we've been giving him, I'm sure he could win, because he almost did last time.

EDIT:

we have already exusted all of our options on how to beat these moves and the long and short of it is that, those two moves(among others) **** sonic and there really is not super secret highly (or even mildly) effective way for sonic to combat it, other than, as champ said, just running away. or relying on(once again) mindgames to get through it. thats why sonic is so bad, and so incredibly hard to play, every single move he makes requires mindgames and prediction and setups

Shuttle loop does not vpwn Sonic. In fact, it probably pwns Sonic less than it does to a large percentage of the cast. Not to be rude, but this is an extremely pessimistic view that I don't think represents the reality of Sonic vs MK, or even Sonic match-ups in general. Sonic is one of the few characters that actually has the speed to punish MK for missing with the Nado.

Basically, espy missed out on a few things that could have turned the match for him. Imma summarize:

1) Bair, spaced adequately beats out nado. You just have to hit with the disjointed part, his foot. Spacing is hard, but espy did this quite a few times. His problems usually arose from trying to hit MK out of nado with a bair, while hitting with Sonics body, which wont work because its not disjointed at that part

2) Tilt fsmash up, to hit the center, where MK is.

3) SDI more. There were several times where puffball was caught at the top of the nado, which just from looking at it it seemed like he could escape by SDIing upwards as M2K suggested and spamming spring. If wou are caught at the top of the nado, SDI upwards. If you are caught at the sides, the down and away I believe works. After which you can escape to safety with spring.

4) To puffball: I saw you try to punish or hit with SideB too often, and be hit out of it. I think you may have been trying to use the invincibility frames, but that generally isnt a good option against MK. Because the invincibility and high priority only last for about a third of the hop, before the apex is reached. After that its priority is absymal and thats why DMK punished you for pretty much every SideB you used in his general area.

5) Shuttle loop is not a problem. You cant really avoid the initial hit wel from the groundl, because it comes out so quick. but you should not be getting hit by glide attack at all. Just fair/uair. If he shuttle loops from below you, or if you expect him to, just spring to Dair.

6) Use homing attack if you are to the side and slightly above or parallel with nado. If you are directly above use spring.

Overall, it is my strong belief that against a spammy MK, Sonic has to revert to more noobish tactics. Fight noob tactics with smarter noob tactics. I think the reason why puffball got hit so much with the nado is because he was so "technical" about it, trying to space too many head-on Bairs/fairs when a simple spring or HA would have sufficed. Bairs work, if you trying to hit with the foot, as it is disjointed. Espy managed this pretty often. But he failed when he tried to hit him out of it with Sonic's body using a bair. I think RAR bairs would work quite nicely. after mk has finshed nado, go and powershield the imminent attack, and grab the bum.

Go and watch the vids, you will see that probably most of the time, espy could have beat out the tornado. The problem is that its hard at first to think on the spot of what is your best option. But I think with enough practice, this will become second nature. So that you will find yourself hitting MK out of tornado, more than he hits you with it, therefor making it a less viable option for MK.

 

[Espy Rose]

Quick note:

Alot of those Side-Bs were actually attempted spinshots away from the attack...

 

[Napilopez]

Quick note:

Alot of those Side-Bs were actually attempted spinshots away from the attack...

Oh, .

 

[Chis]

So I've got a crazy idea...

So Metaknight's Mach tornado does 1% a hit (it rises on the last it) Max 23% right?

4 - Does Sonic have bad priority???
In short, yes.
However, this is thrown around so much, that people have a really weird misconception of it.
With grounded moves, the priority system works like this:
- If two attacks deal within 10% of each other, they will clang and both attacks will cancel
- If one attack deals more than 10% than the other attack, the weaker move will get cancelled, and the stronger move will continue on.

With aerial moves, it tends to work more like this:
- If one "attack box" overlaps the opponent's "hurt box" first, it will win.
- If both characters' attacks reach each others' 'hurtboxes' at the same time, they will trade hits.
- Aerial [A] attacks will never clang or cancel.
- - - Special states (some special attacks, MK's glide attack, destructible projectiles) follow the 10% rule, except instead of 'stopping', their damage/attack box will get neutralized. So if you attack Snake's mortar with something that deals within 10% of its damage, you can break through it. If you F-air into MK's glide attack, the first hit will neutralize the glide attack and the followup hits will hit MK.

And Sonics jab does 2% a hit right? I've kept hearing about jabs some times beating the whorenado. What if you should hold the A button so Sonic's jabs come out really quickly until they hit something? Will it be fast enough to 'clang' with the whorenado and cancel it or is it a special state?

 

[Espy Rose]

So Metaknight's Mach tornado does 1% a hit (it rises on the last it) Max 23% right?



And Sonics jab does 2% a hit right? I've kept hearing about jabs some times beating the whorenado. What if you should the A button so Sonic's jabs come out really quickly until they hit something? Will it be fast enough to 'clang' with the whorenado and cancel it or is it a special state?

I'm actually going to start experimenting with the tornado vs. Sonic's moveset. I'll get back to this thread with details later.

 

[Greenstreet]

The problem is most of the time, you won't have time to see it coming to start the jab spree. And if you do think it's coming and start it? A good MK will just come along and punish you with a drill or an f-air or pretty much everyone of his moves.
Worth testing though...

 

[Chis]

Sorry puffball, I meant 'hold' the A button. :'(

 

[Tenki]

So Metaknight's Mach tornado does 1% a hit (it rises on the last it) Max 23% right?



And Sonics jab does 2% a hit right? I've kept hearing about jabs some times beating the whorenado. What if you should hold the A button so Sonic's jabs come out really quickly until they hit something? Will it be fast enough to 'clang' with the whorenado and cancel it or is it a special state?

It's a special attack, so it is a 'special' state.

- - - Special states (some special attacks, MK's glide attack, destructible projectiles) follow the 10% rule, except instead of 'stopping', their damage/attack box will get neutralized. So if you attack Snake's mortar with something that deals within 10% of its damage, you can break through it. If you F-air into MK's glide attack, the first hit will neutralize the glide attack and the followup hits will hit MK.

Here's the thing though, if it's on the ground, then it'll follow the 'ground' rules, where it'll get cancelled, just like what you want to happen with your idea.

Unfortunately for you, if it's in the air, it will continue, and that single hit of the tornado will get neutralized while cancelling your grounded attack (jab). But it has multiple hits, so the ones after that will be the ones to hit you.

That's why people feel like aerial tornados have so much priority - if you manage a clang but your attack is too weak, you'll neutralize that single hit, but since it's in the air, the rest of the attack will continue, and the tornado has very fast multiple hits which will catch you in your clang lag.

 

[Greenstreet]

Which sucks, because Sonic doesn't have any speedy 10%+ moves. Maybe a f-tilt? How would that fair?
Would the second hit connect?

 

[Tenki]

Which sucks, because Sonic doesn't have any speedy 10%+ moves. Maybe a f-tilt? How would that fair?
Would the second hit connect?

2nd hit is 7%.


Sonic doesn't have speedy 10% moves.

He has slow ones though.

B-air, F-smash, D-smash.

Maybe ASC/full charged near-unstale SDR

 

[aeghrur]

Wouldn't B-air have to go by aerial priority though so he'd most likely hit your hurtbox first?

 

[Greenstreet]

Just get that foot out there first and it can do the job.