Sonic vs. Tornado/Shuttle Loop

[Tenki]

Wouldn't B-air have to go by aerial priority though so he'd most likely hit your hurtbox first?

B-air is a normal aerial.
Tornado is a special aerial.

If things go through the way I described it in the FAQ, then the Normal Aerial will be fine, since it does 13 damage unstale. And if you overlap that over MK's hitbox, then at the instant it comes out, you'll neutralize/'outprioritize' MK's tornado (if you deal more than 10% than your opponent's moves, remember the move that wins will continue on). So all you have to worry about is making sure you fall the B-air over MK's hitbox.


But then, remember B-air has a sourspot (9% un-stale), so you can hypothetically cut through 1-2 'slices' of MK's tornado with the 'sweetspot' of the B-air. The B-air will continue on in its progression, become a sourspot - then the sourspot B-air will become neutralized and the followup hit will catch you out of B-air.

I could still be wrong, but it makes sense lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

and you have to space it so that the foot hit the nado with the invisible hitbox (which is what makes up airial priority) but the nado doesnt hit sonic

airials also have the clank property and can still lose to nado if not spaced correctly

D3s d-air is a good example, if its spaced to the side of the nado and not directly in the center, all 7-8 hits will clang with the nado and neither person will take damage

 

[Tenki]

Well, aerials will have a clang property if they're against a special state.

That's why Sonic's F-air can clang with each individual hit of MK's drill rush

 

[Napilopez]

New York is a very special state to me.

Anyways, so me and kinzer did a bunch of testing this weekend. And lol, in 20 minutes of testing, I couldnt get the fsmash to hit MK through the Nado, although somehow I managed it later in a real match against an MK(which I won btw ahem. Die MK). Bair is hard to space appropriate, but its doable, as Puffball definately shows in his vid.

But your best options? Almost always spring and homing attack. if you are directly above Mk, just spring. I would actually recommend baiting MK a bit if you are above him; make it look like you are going to fall down into the nado, and then just spring up soon just slightly ooutside of the nado's range. It wll almost guarantee a hit, and at worst, if he moves, you'll escape freely.

Homing attack though is seriously too good. If you know your homing attack angles well, you'll be hitting MKs out of nado too easily. basically, if you are anywhere to the side of the nado and parallel with/above the top line of the nado, then you ll hit Mk ouot of it. The arching motion of HA makes its so that Sonic travels right over the nado's hitbox into the center.

Seriously, there was a time when Kinzer was just moving all over the stage with nado trying to catch me, and I went to pick up the phone and did nothing but press the B button alone repeatedly and hit him out of nado like 90% of the time.

The biggest problem was when MK did a rising tornado, but I have a remedy for this XD.

Ok, so homing attack is such a slow move, that we almost always cancel it for the shorter charge length. Just from watching videos, I can tell that rarely does anyone go for the non cancelled version. Well against a rising tornado, the best thing to do is not cancel the homing attack if you are not above the Nado. Dont cancel HA, because that way the HA rising with the nado, making help you hit rising nados.

So yea, HA=Nado Counter. Ok well maybe not counter, but if generally your best option, you are much more likely to connect by jumping> HA than risking an fsmash or Bair unless you have amazing spacing ability with that bair. If you are directly above nado, then spring to safety, simple as that. Don't be afraid to using homing attack. Its such a noob tactic for some, and I see few Sonics actually use it. Against the nado, it really is awesome. Go and test it yourself XD, if you know the homing attack's angles well, there should be no reason why you aren't connecting with homing attack enough to make it unviable for the MK to spam it.

If you get caught in a couple of nados per stock no big deal. Its no different from being punished by a couple of aerials instead. There not exactly much you can do if you are punished with a Nado, same as there isnt much you can do if you leave yourself open and are punished with a dsmash. If you predict the nado, or just want to control spam, then HA and spring are your best options.

Also, I saw homing attack go through MKs Fair a couple of times O_o. I think I might have just gone through it in between hits, or riiiighhttt after his fair finished, but it happened pretty often. I actually think HA is a great punisher in every matchup, so use it =P.

 

[R4ZE]

HA moves really fast once it starts... I would imagine it has pretty decent priority, especially by sonic's standards.


I support HA vs nado, but i would atleast jump before using it.

and the cancelling thing... i would recomend changing the timing up often, the mind game aspect of it realy make HA a lot more effective.



can't say how often exactly, but basicly... when you feel liek your opponent is going to predict you HA timing, just let it lag a bit. (works well on MK, as his moves generally start and end very fast, its easy for him to miss because of a delayed HA)

 

[Tenki]

Anyway, If you camp the top of a shuttle loop, you can hit MK out of it.



I think we should talk about MK's aerials.

 

[Chis]

Food for thought

Okay everybody I don't have a way of testing if this works consistently BUT if I remember correctly I have nair'ed out of Metaknights shuttle loop multiple times. I guess this would mean Luigi's aerials have more priority than shuttle loop? If this is true we wouldn't have to airdodge the shuttle loop but instead be able to stop the shuttle loop and punish metaknight at the same time.( Maybe even KO him if sweetspotted and he's at high %)

So yea I guess what I'm kinda saying is someone should try this out. Tell us if it works and if it does we all can be very happy.

I also think this might just be because the Nair hitbox stays out so long. You can sort of wait out the shuttle loops super armor then out prioritize it... I might be totally incorrect here though.

Priority technically does not exist in the air. It exists on the ground when two hits clash and their damage output difference determines if both attacks clash, or if one overrides the other.

In the air, an attack "wins" when its hitbox overlaps the hurtbox of the other opponent. That is why disjointed hitboxes are so powerful. MK's shuttle loop has a disjointed hitbox on the sword and the shockwave area in front of it. However MK's sword doesn't reach too far up when he executes SL so he exposes his hurtbox above him.

This is probably why your Nair would "hit through" a SL; though I can't fathom how it would beat SL. Did both attacks manage to trade blows? I can see that happening; it is not uncommon at all for aerials to hit simultaneously if hitboxes and hurtboxes overlapped each other.

G&W's Bair for example has such "godly priority" because the hitbox (the turtle) is also not a hurtbox (disjointed) and it has such amazing reach. When you have a move like Luigi's Nair that extends his hurtbox in addition to his hitbox and have it hit right into a move that is disjointed, it's obvious what move wins.

Well, after reading some posts by some top MK players (I think this was in M2K's guide for fighting MK), it appears Shuttle Loop actually has pretty low priority; it's harder to deal with more, I think, because it comes out pretty fast and has a good hitbox, so you often will need to anticipate it to time a good aerial to counter; it also seems a lot of aerials end up trading hits instead of overriding one another. So it's entirely possible, and if you can do it consistently, you've got yourself a nice Shuttle Loop counter.

Interesting...

 

[Tenki]

Interesting...

which is exactly:

Anyway, If you camp the top of a shuttle loop, you can hit MK out of it.

So I'm thinking that, since we basically know how to 'counter' the two moves (it's just a matter of learning how to place ourselves for it)...

I think we should talk about MK's aerials.

 

[da K.I.D.]

which is just as hard, if not, harder than finding those moves in the first place

 

[Espy Rose]

New York is a very special state to me.

Anyways, so me and kinzer did a bunch of testing this weekend. And lol, in 20 minutes of testing, I couldnt get the fsmash to hit MK through the Nado, although somehow I managed it later in a real match against an MK(which I won btw ahem. Die MK). Bair is hard to space appropriate, but its doable, as Puffball definately shows in his vid.

But your best options? Almost always spring and homing attack. if you are directly above Mk, just spring. I would actually recommend baiting MK a bit if you are above him; make it look like you are going to fall down into the nado, and then just spring up soon just slightly ooutside of the nado's range. It wll almost guarantee a hit, and at worst, if he moves, you'll escape freely.

Homing attack though is seriously too good. If you know your homing attack angles well, you'll be hitting MKs out of nado too easily. basically, if you are anywhere to the side of the nado and parallel with/above the top line of the nado, then you ll hit Mk ouot of it. The arching motion of HA makes its so that Sonic travels right over the nado's hitbox into the center.

Seriously, there was a time when Kinzer was just moving all over the stage with nado trying to catch me, and I went to pick up the phone and did nothing but press the B button alone repeatedly and hit him out of nado like 90% of the time.

The biggest problem was when MK did a rising tornado, but I have a remedy for this XD.

Ok, so homing attack is such a slow move, that we almost always cancel it for the shorter charge length. Just from watching videos, I can tell that rarely does anyone go for the non cancelled version. Well against a rising tornado, the best thing to do is not cancel the homing attack if you are not above the Nado. Dont cancel HA, because that way the HA rising with the nado, making help you hit rising nados.

So yea, HA=Nado Counter. Ok well maybe not counter, but if generally your best option, you are much more likely to connect by jumping> HA than risking an fsmash or Bair unless you have amazing spacing ability with that bair. If you are directly above nado, then spring to safety, simple as that. Don't be afraid to using homing attack. Its such a noob tactic for some, and I see few Sonics actually use it. Against the nado, it really is awesome. Go and test it yourself XD, if you know the homing attack's angles well, there should be no reason why you aren't connecting with homing attack enough to make it unviable for the MK to spam it.

If you get caught in a couple of nados per stock no big deal. Its no different from being punished by a couple of aerials instead. There not exactly much you can do if you are punished with a Nado, same as there isnt much you can do if you leave yourself open and are punished with a dsmash. If you predict the nado, or just want to control spam, then HA and spring are your best options.

Also, I saw homing attack go through MKs Fair a couple of times O_o. I think I might have just gone through it in between hits, or riiiighhttt after his fair finished, but it happened pretty often. I actually think HA is a great punisher in every matchup, so use it =P.

At the moment, I don't have anyone to try to test out HA with, but I've been going through simulations in my mind.

I would think HA would definately work in the ways you described, and as one of the responses someone mentioned earlier, jumping to an HA might also be quite effective if you are able to anticipate the tornado before it comes out.

Instead of prologning the HA, wouldn't a double jump from the ground to a cancelled HA work just as effectively?

Although I'm definately not ruling out the prolonged HA, I would think DJ->HA would just prove faster and more effecient. Then again, I have no way to test it.

I also began pondering HA vs. Whorenado when I realized that the anti-nado list in Tactics Discussion was complete, and was a little bit surprised when I saw that HA was apparently the best bet vs. the nado.

So I'm thinking that, since we basically know how to 'counter' the two moves (it's just a matter of learning how to place ourselves for it)...

I was actually surprised by people's issues with Shuttle Loop. Just shield->aerial as soon as the attack clanks with the shield.

Or if you're in the air, upB->dair pops MK up pretty well.

-----

But Tenki's right, the biggest issue is definately MK's aerials.

Personally though, my main issue is really just the whorenado. Once I get that out of the way, I want to focus on MK's ground game.

 

[Tenki]

Another thing about delaying HA - stalling for time during Tornado means the MK will have to retreat at one point, to 'keep safe', and you know, Homing Attack vs retreating player = ???

And you're more likely to catch him in his 'ending' lag.

----------

So yeah, after this is done, aerial or ground game?

Either one would be nice to discuss.

 

[Jim Morrison]

aerial is more important, MK is in the air too much

 

[da K.I.D.]

HA vs. retreating nado= sonic getting caught in nado or missing entirely

 

[Tenki]

HA vs. retreating nado= sonic getting caught in nado or missing entirely

Usually this is true.

HA vs retreating dying nado = ?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Hit MK or miss

 

[Tenki]

and if it misses, the Tornado will pretty much be over, since the HA is used to stall a bit of time.

So if by miss you mean 'bounce off the floor' (out of range), you'll be safe.
If by 'miss', you mean 'miss MK and get caught in tornado', it ends like, right after you get caught, so not too big of a deal, I think.
If by 'miss', you mean 'float towards MK but get caught in landing lag next to him', you failed the placement/range of the HA


Keep in mind that I'm only supporting this through theorycraft. I haven't/won't be able to mess around with it until Friday at the earliest.

 

[Jim Morrison]

and if it misses, the Tornado will pretty much be over, since the HA is used to stall a bit of time.

So if by miss you mean 'bounce off the floor' (out of range), you'll be safe.
If by 'miss', you mean 'miss MK and get caught in tornado', it ends like, right after you get caught, so not too big of a deal, I think.
If by 'miss', you mean 'float towards MK but get caught in landing lag next to him', you failed the placement/range of the HA


Keep in mind that I'm only supporting this through theorycraft. I haven't/won't be able to mess around with it until Friday at the earliest.

I believe when miss it will float and land lag against a retreating dying Tornado. This is all theory for me as well, don't have a tornado MK at present. But it kinda figures that if the HA doesnt make it to MK, your gonna float, not bounce, cause you're gonna hit at MK's head height.

 

[Tenki]

Yeah, but the way I was envisioning it was being like a floating Damocles shooting FREYA down on things.

But you have to kinda use your placement right - you don't want to be half the stage away from his ending point, but you wanna limit his ending placement to a certain distance of the stage from you, probably within 1/3-1/4 of the stage from where you're floating at FH-DJ height.



some food for thought.

I hope it does..... :3


I find MK easier to play if you take the tank position. When you're attacking he can attack too OR be defensive. I was playing one as Sonic and just.....stood there. His options were...

1. Stand there
2. Running Grab
3. Shorthop aeiral
4 Dash Attack.
5. Tornado
6. Drill Rush
7. Dimensional Cape

My responses were
1. Still stand there
2. Jump and punish
3. Shield and punish (or if it was a retreating SHaerial I stood there)
4. Shield and punish
5. Shield and punish. (if he drifted away I just chased him down. You guys can't do that since your run speed is like... my walk speed but I hear AS is pretty neat.)
6. You have to be joking. Just... do whatever you want really.
7. Lulz. Punish.

IF you are REALLY paying attention you have JUST enough time to determine what he's doing. I basically stood at long/mid range and ripped into him. I got this to work JUST enough to do a match with Falcon where I still LOST but he was on his last life with mid damage.

MK seems to either tell you EXACTLY what he's going to do or if he DOESN'T do that his only option left is 1 other option. i.e. if he DOESN'T dash attack at a certain distance a dash grab is coming.

This stuff worked with SONIC I don't know quite how good Lucario is at punishing but I figure this could help a bit. It was still hard as hell but I went from getting 2 stocked to winning one, losing one and then losing with Falcon.

i think terios was missing a few things though...

if you are playing against an MK and just standing still playing defensive, Mk has the 7 options he listed, and more, and even then, he can also mix and match them to his leisure, examples:

8. walk up and f-tilt
9. walk up and d-tilt
10. roll behind to bait a reaction.
11. run and shield.
12. pivotgrab
13. f/d-air to tornado
14. walk and forward smash
15. walk and down smash
16. forward air to down tilt
17. empty hop/SHAD to all 16 of the above.

we seem to be stuck in the idea that MK does stuff that only MK can do. this is not true, MK can do everything any other character can do to approach, and THAN, transition that into things that only he can do.

lol

 

[Jim Morrison]

nice options :O

 

[Chis]

We need a 'How to deal with Metaknight' topic.

Don't run off too make one just yet.

 

[Jim Morrison]

This is slowly turning into a how to deal with MK, Chis

 

[da K.I.D.]

and if it misses, the Tornado will pretty much be over, since the HA is used to stall a bit of time.

1. So if by miss you mean 'bounce off the floor' (out of range), you'll be safe.
2. If by 'miss', you mean 'miss MK and get caught in tornado', it ends like, right after you get caught, so not too big of a deal, I think.
3. If by 'miss', you mean 'float towards MK but get caught in landing lag next to him', you failed the placement/range of the HA


Keep in mind that I'm only supporting this through theorycraft. I haven't/won't be able to mess around with it until Friday at the earliest.

same here, but either way...
1. tornado that low to the ground has minimal landing lag, so youll get counterattacked. the bounce has enough lag for Mk to d smash, f/u-air, or shuttle loop
2. you take 3 damage and a setup, overall the best circumstance.
3. see number 1 and replace bounce with land

We need a 'How to deal with Metaknight' topic.

Don't run off too make one just yet.

this is sad because this IS our dealing with Mk topic and im basically destroying every thing we come up with

 

[Chis]

This is slowly turning into a how to deal with MK, Chis

I know. I meant some one should get all the information in this topic and put it in a single post.

 

[Tenki]

same here, but either way...
1. tornado that low to the ground has minimal landing lag, so youll get counterattacked. the bounce has enough lag for Mk to d smash, f/u-air, or shuttle loop
this is sad because this IS our dealing with Mk topic and im basically destroying every thing we come up with

an out-of-range ground-bounce?

I don't think so :l

 

[Jim Morrison]

LOL say hi to d-tilt. More than enough range to cover the distance between bouncing Sonic and ******** MK

 

[Tenki]

I'm pretty sure you can move by the time you get to the top of the bounce.

and the bounce gives back your double jumps, too, so you have all your options open from that, except you start at around SH height.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

If this hasn't been known (Not reading this whole thread) then you'll lol at this.

Spin jump(I hope people are familiar with this) clangs with his glide attack.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

some food for thought.




lol

I stand by that for the time being. Those other options are just variations of the first options.




8. walk up and f-tilt
He's WALKING How hard is it to avoid a walking... ANYTHING
9. walk up and d-tilt
Walking
10. roll behind to bait a reaction.
My reaction is to run and keep camping
11. run and shield.
If he runs I usually drifted a SH back and spun if he was shielding I'd cancel with a jump, run and camp some more
12. pivotgrab
If he ran I'd jump and counter. Short hop Spin counters EVERYTHING lol and what it DOESN'T counter you can just cancel and escape
13. f/d-air to tornado
Still a tornado Shield and punish
14. walk and forward smash
Walking lolz
15. walk and down smash
Walking lolz
16. forward air to down tilt
Sonic's air mobility is good enough to jump backwards and take it from there
17. empty hop/SHAD to all 16 of the above.
Run AWAY



It's not perfect. Perhaps not even GOOD. I noticed this in like...2 matches. It's a SKELETON for counteractions. You didn't just spin cancel well at first right? It took experience. I'm sure you spin canceled recklessly all over at first until you learned WHEN to spin cancel effectively. Things take time to develop. If this **** doesn't work at all I'll just drop it but I'm at least going to test it a little. It seemed effective for a few matches.

Also. Having two stocks to a MK's one and watching him Nado spam in desperation is HILARIOUS

 

[Tenki]

I'm requesting data for MK's ending lag. It'll be beneficial to everyone :l

 

[da K.I.D.]

for the record when we first realised that Mk ***** sonic Iwas the first one to say that running away and camping was the only way to deal with him...
keep that in mind, im like an effing prophet in this mofo...

that being said, camping without a projectile doesnt win matches...

basically is you have to fight an Mk the only moves that dont get completely *****, are:
f-tilt
dash attack
up-smash (have to have a low shield Mk.)
spin jump
f-smash for killing.

everything else is completely useless...

 

[Anther]

-Shield the tornado and then run over and shield grab him D=.
If the MK tries to poke you shield with it, you should be able to grab and punish him the majority of the time.

-Point your shield upwards and towards MK
That simple tech will save you from countless tornadoes. Number 1, since it has so many hits, it'll hit you through a pointed shield every so often (which is a lot less often than the "I'm gonna sit here and not cover myself with my shield that's capable of covering me" option). And pointing your shield up will usually automatically cause you to pop out of the tornado if you do get hit, in which case your shield has time to recharge, you run, and you only took like 3 damage.
It's an interesting habit to develop, but once you do it greatly reduces how often you get shield poked in general ;].

I rarely try to attack the tornado because the simple shield option works (Though... after a certain amount of effort you can see all the points where your attacks will go through it..) Sonic and pika are both fast enough to catch him after the attack fails to poke you. Eventually they stop trying because the damage ratio gets very sad for them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybSHyKLZmfA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4gku-zfZsw

Watch the majority of nados in these, the ones that actually catch me are the ones that catch me off guard.

 

[Tenki]

I watched the first one, that was pretty.

And there are also cases of punishing F-airs, like I was mentioning earlier.

A large majority of MK's seem to like floating after they do F-airs, and believe it or not, they're more vulnerable trying to do a rising F-air than when they try to FF F-air, because a fastfall one lets them take advantage of their small landing lag, whereas a rising F-air makes them vulnerable because they're 'committed' to it (they finish the attack, then they have to 'fall' down for a few frames and can't do anything).

 

[Espy Rose]

-Shield the tornado and then run over and shield grab him D=.
If the MK tries to poke you shield with it, you should be able to grab and punish him the majority of the time.

-Point your shield upwards and towards MK
That simple tech will save you from countless tornadoes. Number 1, since it has so many hits, it'll hit you through a pointed shield every so often (which is a lot less often than the "I'm gonna sit here and not cover myself with my shield that's capable of covering me" option). And pointing your shield up will usually automatically cause you to pop out of the tornado if you do get hit, in which case your shield has time to recharge, you run, and you only took like 3 damage.
It's an interesting habit to develop, but once you do it greatly reduces how often you get shield poked in general ;].

I rarely try to attack the tornado because the simple shield option works (Though... after a certain amount of effort you can see all the points where your attacks will go through it..) Sonic and pika are both fast enough to catch him after the attack fails to poke you. Eventually they stop trying because the damage ratio gets very sad for them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybSHyKLZmfA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4gku-zfZsw

Watch the majority of nados in these, the ones that actually catch me are the ones that catch me off guard.

My question Anther, is what if they are able to 'nado, and consistently lag-cancel them? How do you punish lag that isn't there?

From those videos, that MK kept stopping the 'nado on the ground, where the lag is easily punishable.

 

[da K.I.D.]

smart MKs by now have learned to SHFF their F airs so they get the rising f air, and the lack of landing lag effect, when followed by down tilt, this becomes redic hard to punish

 

[Anther]

That's true, if they consistently lag cancel them they have to get pretty high up to the point where it probably isn't hitting you... in which case I almost think punishing them is exactly the same as trying to punish a landing air dodge. I'm not entirely sure about that though.
But I don't think the tornado is as much of a threat to your shield if they're lag canceling it since they have to get up high enough that you can begin your punishing chase after they rise away from you. With pika since he's a lil slower I'd probably try to punish with a dash -> spotdodge -> dsmash, but sonic could probably get away with shield grabbing them after the animation of the attack.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's true, if they consistently lag cancel them they have to get pretty high up to the point where it probably isn't hitting you... in which case I almost think punishing them is exactly the same as trying to punish a landing air dodge. I'm not entirely sure about that though.
But I don't think the tornado is as much of a threat to your shield if they're lag canceling it since they have to get up high enough that you can begin your punishing chase after they rise away from you. With pika since he's a lil slower I'd probably try to punish with a dash -> spotdodge -> dsmash, but sonic could probably get away with shield grabbing them after the animation of the attack.

Definately true. I just wanted to get your feedback on the matter. Infact, I have some vids of me grabbing MK out of nado's that would naturally have zero-lag at that height.

I just wanted to see if that was the right approach or not.

I can't wait for my next tournament. I REALLY wanna play DMK again.

 

[Tenki]

smart MKs by now have learned to SHFF their F airs so they get the rising f air, and the lack of landing lag effect, when followed by down tilt, this becomes redic hard to punish

There's still that dead time after the 3 slices that they can't do anything BUT fall.

My question Anther, is what if they are able to 'nado, and consistently lag-cancel them? How do you punish lag that isn't there?

From those videos, that MK kept stopping the 'nado on the ground, where the lag is easily punishable.

Falling time is dead time where they can't do anything but fall as well. Anther covered it - treat it as though someone were trying to fall while airdodging.

 

[Napilopez]

I think this should just become the Sonic vs MK thread. It would also help in Dojo's project, although I seriously doubt Sonic would ever become an MK counter, lol.

Kirby should become an MK counter.

HA vs. retreating nado= sonic getting caught in nado or missing entirely

I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but are you sure of that? HA usually works best against retreating opponents when you are above them... So long as you are not too far from nado you should be fine, I can't remember having any trouble with retreating Nados when I tested with Kinzer.

As for Double Jump, thats just as fine, but sometimes you haven't used your double jump, and it might make you more predictable. Certainly mix up your options.

Definately true. I just wanted to get your feedback on the matter. Infact, I have some vids of me grabbing MK out of nado's that would naturally have zero-lag at that height.

I just wanted to see if that was the right approach or not.

I can't wait for my next tournament. I REALLY wanna play DMK again.

Lol honestly, I can't wait for your next tourney. If DMK plays anything at all like he did last time, there really is no reason you should lose =P I mean I think if you just watch your videos over, you'll see you often had better options to avoid Nados rather than run into them XD. I just counted about 18 times I felt you had better options against the Nado in your first match against him. Not to pressure you though.

And sorry if it sounds like I'm nitpicking or anything, I just really want you to beat the bum next time =P

 

[Anther]

Yeah, no one should be winning MK just like that, they better be working for their wins with that weak excuse for a character XD. After a couple grabs, most MKs unfortunately stop using the tornado, the ones that keep doing it are the fun ones =].

 

[memphis_chains]

how arn't you?

ASC and flick the control stick

and the timing with side b isnt hard either. pika has harder ATs than that