Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[Blank Mauser]

Actually I think he would be much more viable with these changes, but just nothing approaching top tier. His matchups with top tiers may get pretty close, which would certainly help. He just wouldn't be overall dominating, not too good.

I do think that helping him approach and kill better would bump quite a bit of his matchups to 50:50, no higher.

Also, Leaf said it pretty perfect what my point on basing a character around bait/punish and rushdown/pressure was. All characters can already do both, in different ways and situations. Its too broad and general. I've specified Sonic as clutch, mobile, smart use of invincibility, and I'm sure more adjectives will pop up as we begin to figure this through.

 

[yami_sora]

Well if we have a good general idea of where we want to take Sonic, what should the next step in planning him out be?

 

[leafgreen386]

A good pressure character needs to always have a way to keep the opponent's options locked down, and if they lose that, a way to quickly get it back. Sonic's speed is a huge boon for that, since it gives him a very large area of space he can control at any given time. That speed also helps him play campy, though, by allowing him to get out of his opponent's range quickly. Although most people find aggro pressure characters to be more fun in general, you can't ignore sonic's baiting game in the process, which is key to even begin your pressure and get in on a foe.

Blank wants to focus sonic's game around making use of his speed and invincibility. Well, uh... the speed is a no-brainer. How is he going to use that speed, though? Will he use it to cross up his opponent frequently? Or will he just use it like he has been using it, and simply use it to quickly get into or out of an opponent's range? If you say the latter, you're just building him right back to his old standard. You have to give him viable crossups and ways to ensnare your opponent for shielding.

The thing is, if you're trying to make use of invincibility, you're inherently shifting him more toward a camping game. What's the purpose of invincibility? Is it to trap your opponent when they've had their options sealed due to your pressure? It can be, but more often than not, invincibility will be for the purpose of interrupting your opponents in mid-move when they're already committed to an action. Whether you do this based off of reaction or prediction is irrelevant, since either way you're still waiting for your opponent to make a move and then punishing them for it. Very different from forcing your opponent to use a move due to you pressuring them and then turning that choice into a bad option with your invincibility.

So you're already veering off course if you're trying to build sonic more toward the pressure end of the sliding scale of pressure and camping. There is of course another use of invincibility, which is using it to make safe approaches and get in on your opponent, as was probably what blank was thinking when he suggested it, but the amount needed to make this effective would probably be broken beyond belief, thus relegating it toward the more reactive end of the spectrum, as opposed to being proactive like it was intended to be.

See, what really hurts sonic trying to be a more pressure oriented character is his momentum, which makes it harder for him to cross up shields. Not every pressure character needs to be able to do this if they can keep a fast enough flurry of attacks with good spacing going at you that keeps them safe. However, think about what sonic has for pressuring shields. None of his aerials really do that good of a job in rapid fire, and besides the bair (which has considerable startup), they don't transition into ground moves particularly well except for jab, really, since they don't give him the spacing he needs to stay safe. This is something you're going to need to fix if you want to shift sonic toward being a more pressure oriented character. You don't need to give him more momentum if you give him the appropriate tools to pressure shields without it, but he does need something. His shield pressure doesn't even need to be that good, but it does need to be good enough to make your opponent have to actually think in order to punish you for it, which is the main reason crossups are useful; they give you mixup options.

But as you know, there's more to pressure than just shield pressure. If you can't pressure shields, the other forms of pressure are far less effective, since you have no way of getting your opponent into a position where they can be further pressured. However, once a good enough shield pressure game has been established, the other fields of pressure can be exploited. This is actually where I believe sonic should excel the most in, and where the buffs should be focusing their efforts. If you hadn't thought about it this way before, anytime your opponent is in a compromised position because of something you did, you are pressuring them. Are they laying on the ground? Pressure. Are they in the air above you? Pressure. Are they on a platform above you? Pressure. Are they off the stage or on the ledge? Pressure. Whether you continue applying pressure correctly at this point or you ease up doesn't matter. You are in a position to exert pressure on your opponent and are limiting their options.

Sonic's speed lets him do this very well, since he can pressure from greater distances without actually having any more physical range. This is also why I believe that the usmash spike is perfect for a playstyle focused around the other forms of pressure. With a refurbished fair, it and uair would be excellent pressuring tools in the air, restricting your opponent's ability to airdodge to safety. On the ground, landing a spiking usmash would force your opponent into a state where they either must tech or lay there, either of which is a very compromised position. Sonic's speed would thus be put to good use in monopolizing whatever the opponent's given choice is.

I said a character can't be built just on the premise of "camping" or "pressure," but these two words can at least tell you where you want to go. There are many ways to build a pressure character. I could construct a character who has the best shield pressure in the game bar none while having only mediocre pressure options for the rest of the game; it would be a character that can punish you for defending easily, but once it has you down, it can easily lose the advantage and things get set back to neutral. With sonic, I think the proper direction to take would be giving him only mediocre shield pressure, but once he gets a hold of you, you're his, by giving him solid options for all-around pressure.

Just some food for thought.

 

[yami_sora]

That was a great read leafgreen. Do you think these kinds of changes could be feasibly implemented to Sonic's character? It sounds like you're also in favor or giving him a blank slate and starting over.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I can haz bthrow suicide?

^^^THIS!!!

Dash behind opponent, pivot grab, suicide. Sexy as hell. <3

And the non momentum-altering Dair sounds very interesting. I'd like to hear more about it, and how it can actually be changed for the better, if possible.

 

[yami_sora]

They sound cool in text but I dunno how they would fit in with the rest of the play style we're attempting to build here.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Leaf is right that invincibility will probably be used for different reasons, but I think a safe approach is very feasible. Side-B not only has extended invincibility, but can be canceled with a jump. The homing attack is great for letting him get straight back to the ground and continue pressure etc, and we can give it enough shieldstun to allow some options like instant down-B afterwards, which would lead to Sonic being behind the opponent's shield on block.

I think the main reason I want the invincibility is for approaching against projectiles and keeping your opponent scared. Honestly, once people learn to handle it its not going to be punishing as often since people will just stop committing to moves they know you can punish. However, this gives you the fear factor and knowledge your opponent won't throw out X move, making it even better suited for pressure and adds some looseness to Sonic's game.

I'm not against lowering the landing lag on some of Sonic's aerials. Fair and Nair sound most reasonable to me. Don't underestimate the instant homing attack though. Its great for getting Sonic into the opponents face with relatively decent options afterwards. It can be outspaced and punished of course considering Sonic's low priority doing all of this, but this is about as versatile as Pika's QAC. It won't give the same combo options as QA, but it trades that for better control and mobility. Maneuvers that involve spindash and jumping out of spindash are going to be risking your double jump of course, and while Sonic's spring is good its still predictable alone.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, after thinking about the topic of "pressure" some more, I've come to a few conclusions that will hopefully help you. Yes, this is going to be another essay post. It seems you sonic mains are getting quite a few of these from me lately =p

To start off, we need a set of working definitions. Once you have that, it's possible to see where the flaws were in my previous thinking. "Pressure" is "the act of reducing or removing your opponent's effective options at any given time by the actions you take." By this definition, we can actually see camping as a form of pressure, making what I had previously been referring to as "the sliding scale of pressure and camping" actually a bit of a misnomer. What it really is, is just a sliding scale of pressure, or to be more exact, a sliding scale of direct and indirect pressure.

Logically, something such as dashdance camping would be considered indirect pressure, whereas pressuring someone's shield is direct pressure. But it goes further than that. Why are these appropriate classifications? Originally, I wanted to define direct pressure as "the removal of your opponent's options through attacking them," which when I realized how stupid that sounded (if that's direct pressure, then what would it leave indirect as? ...not attacking...? Right...), I revised it to "the removal of your opponent's options through frame advantage, or a lack of frame advantage on the part of your opponent." This leaves indirect pressure as "the removal of options through positioning."

Perhaps you can already see the flaws in this thinking. If direct pressure is frame advantage, and indirect is positional advantage, that would mean that every form of existing direct pressure would also have to be considered indirect, as well, at least to a certain extent. Even if you have a huge frame advantage, it doesn't matter if you're not in a position you can take advantage of it in. However, with a sufficient positional advantage, you may not need a frame advantage.

More importantly, however, these definitions don't work well because they weigh what the opponent does to themselves just as heavily as what you do to them, which can result in some strange results when considered in this way. If your opponent throws out an attack that misses, perhaps you baited them to perform that attack. Logically, this would then be a form of indirect pressure. However, you now have a frame advantage over them, which by this definition would be direct pressure.

So... I wasn't very happy with those definitions. They just didn't do a sufficient job of answering what kind of pressure a given action is. They overlap and change places far too often to even try to differentiate them at all. For a time, I thought that perhaps this is just how it is. Perhaps pressure is just... pressure, and doesn't need to be defined as either direct or indirect. We know that every character makes use of the aspects we traditionally would think of as either direct or indirect, and if they overlap in the definitions, does it really matter?

Well, I came to the conclusion that yes, it does matter, although it's not as clear cut as I originally thought. After some more thought about the subject, I redefined direct pressure as "the immediate removal of your opponent's effective options" and indirect pressure as "the removal or reduction of your opponent's effective options by being able to respond to a given option." I was much happier with these definitions, since they both use the original definition of pressure ("the act of reducing or removing your opponent's effective options at any given time by the actions you take"), and clearly define when one takes precedence over the other. They actually make logical sense and explain why we would call dashdance camping "indirect pressure" and shield pressure "direct pressure."

If you are pressuring your opponent's shield, logically you are directly pressuring them, but the reason it is "direct" is because you are posing an immediate threat to your opponent. If you are dashdancing in and out of your opponent's range, logically you are indirectly limiting your opponent's options, but the reason it's indirect is because your opponent can still execute whatever move they want; it's just that you're able to cover most if not all of those options from your dashdance.

These new definitions also create some interesting cases, but thankfully any conflicting situations can actually be resolved by the reasoning that it is a transition from direct to indirect or indirect to direct. The only cases where both happen at the same time is when one of the two was already present.

Let's taking hitting a foe as an example. This is probably about as direct as pressure can get. You're placing a foe in hitstun where they lose all of their options, with the exception of some very limited control over which direction they're launched in. Being launched into the sky or sent flying offstage are both results of direct pressure, but your ability to cover their options to return to the stage is indirect pressure, where if you succeed, you then get another hit off (more direct pressure) and you get to continue trying to pressure them until you mess up your pressuring.

Perhaps a better demonstration of this would be hitting the foe into the ground. If you are hitting them into the ground, if they're still in hitstun, their options are restricted to teching in place, techrolling left, techrolling right, or not teching. If they don't tech, they then have the options of rolling left, rolling right, getting up, or performing a getup attack. But all of these are still viable options to get away from your pressure and set the situation back to more or less neutral. Hitting the foe directly removed their options. However, the ways you're able to respond to each of their escape options is a form of indirect pressure.

When you're camping a foe with a projectile, you're constantly switching between direct and indirect pressure, due to the direct pressure having very short term effects. Firing the projectile controls space and immediately limits your opponent's options. The positional advantage you gain as a result of this projectile then allows you to exert indirect pressure, as your foe will still have a multitude of options for dealing with your projectile, but you're in a better position to deal with them than before.

So in a way, my original definitions of direct and indirect pressure were correct; indirect pressure is most certainly more common than direct pressure and generally does have to do with a positional advantage, whereas direct pressure is more commonly a result of a frame advantage. It's just that those definitions couldn't explain why direct pressure is generally a frame advantage and indirect pressure is generally a positional advantage, or why they seem to conflict at times (another example: crossing up an opponent's shield gives you a positional advantage, yet it's a form of direct pressure). Whenever you're not being pressured yourself, you have the ability to exert indirect pressure. You then transition into direct pressure, which transitions back to indirect pressure, even though your opponent is still feeling the effects of the direct pressure you just applied. When the foe finally manages to escape your pressure, the situation is set back to neutral, and you both resume trying to gain control of the match through pressure.

---

As for how this all relates to sonic... his speed naturally gives him a very strong indirect pressure game by giving him a lot of space he can control at once. However, his poor priority makes it difficult for him to properly transition into direct pressure, resulting in him having developed a campy playstyle of "bait and punish," which is essentially another way of saying "apply indirect pressure until your opponent finally succumbs to it and you can apply some direct pressure." As such, it seems to make sense to continue building sonic's game around indirect pressure. Giving him options to start techchases (ie. spiking usmash) is immediately a form of direct pressure, but once they're on the ground, sonic now can use his speed to exert a great amount of indirect pressure. The suggestions blank made for neutral and sideB to help for crossing up shields and going through projectiles helps both his direct and indirect pressure games, but it primarily raises his ability to transition into powerful indirect pressure from either direct pressure or from a neutral state. After this, I do think blank has the right idea on where to go with sonic. Basically, we're looking for ways to increase his ability to transition into indirect pressure, which means both giving him new direct pressure options and increasing his control when exerting indirect pressure.

 

[Mattnumbers]

 

[Fones]

Please have a tl;dr section.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Thanks again Leaf for further clarifying and proving that we can't simply generalize a playstyle, because too many times we'll fall into grayer areas rather then just black and white. Which is perfectly fine and all characters do this.

Sonic will have new ways to indirectly pressure, and once he gets in, there is immediate danger simply because thats where most of Sonic's damaging options will be and where his priority demands him to situate.

Anyways, I should have a summary of the changes I've written up here sometime. Until then, feel free to post more ideas. I'd like to get a pac file up for testing as well simply because RC1 will probably have some staying power for a while. If anything, we can be fairly lenient during this time.

 

[Fones]

Thanks again Leaf for further clarifying and proving that we can't simply generalize a playstyle, because too many times we'll fall into grayer areas rather then just black and white. Which is perfectly fine and all characters do this.

Sonic will have new ways to indirectly pressure, and once he gets in, there is immediate danger simply because thats where most of Sonic's damaging options will be and where his priority demands him to situate.

Anyways, I should have a summary of the changes I've written up here sometime. Until then, feel free to post more ideas. I'd like to get a pac file up for testing as well simply because RC1 will probably have some staying power for a while. If anything, we can be fairly lenient during this time.

Thank you.

 

[cobaltblue]

Anything is good at this point that gives sonic insta shield and prevents a camping player from completely shutting him down.

Very nice and informative post Leaf.

 

[yami_sora]

I agree as well. My only concern is that I don't want Sonic to play like he does in vBrawl where you wait for an opening, do a teeny bit of damage, and just repeat or run the clock and win with a % advantage. I want him to be able to decide matches himself.

 

[jalued]

I agree as well. My only concern is that I don't want Sonic to play like he does in vBrawl where you wait for an opening, do a teeny bit of damage, and just repeat or run the clock and win with a % advantage. I want him to be able to decide matches himself.

what about increasing his friction? Just so he has more control over his movement and speed. Also think jumping out of his skid animation would be very useful. Just make him more ground/techchase based. Increase his grab, his ability of dthrow to tech chase better, and there is sonic

 

[Sterowent]

that post was...so beautiful.

 

[Blank Mauser]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Tilts[/COLOR]
-Ftilt: Killing sweetspot

[COLOR="Yellow"]Aerials[/COLOR]
-Nair:
Invincibility from frame 4-11
Hitbox size 12 from 9
Graphic added to match hitbox change
-Dair:
IASA frames

[COLOR="Yellow"]Smashes[/COLOR]
-Usmash:
Spikes at 265 angle
SDI Multiplier .1 from .6
-Dsmash:
Reduce KBG
Increase BKB

[COLOR="Yellow"]Specials[/COLOR]
-Extended invincibility on Side-B (14 frames from 6)
-Spinjump hitbox now comes out frame 1
-Homing attack has fixed trajectory, is instant, and can be canceled into side/down-B upon bounce
-Strengthen Homing Attack and give slightly more shieldstun

[COLOR="Yellow"]Throws[/COLOR]
Fthrow: Sends at a lower angle.
[COLOR="Yellow"]
Frame Speed Changes[/COLOR]
-Usmash Winddown
-Dthrow Winddown
-Dsmash Start-up+Winddown?
-Utilt Winddown
-Fair Landing Lag Reduction
-Nair Landing Lag Reduction
-Bair Start-up?

The list was shorter then I thought it would be. If I missed anything let me know. PSA stuff will be easy, but frame speed will take some maths. I'll shoot to get a pac and gct out before the end of the week.

 

[GHNeko]

What are the thoughts on increasing the damage on some of Sonic's ground based moved, while compensating KB in order to give him more shield stun on his attacks?

Also, jumping out of Skid Animation please.

 

[Blank Mauser]

You don't need to raise damage anymore to raise shieldstun I believe, PSA has its own value for shield hitlag. Also, what moves were you thinking deserved it? Homing attack was one I proposed for at least instant down-B afterwards, but I don't see much point in his ground moves. Also, his Nair and Fair will probably be better on shield with lag reduction alone.

I'll look into jumping out of skid I suppose, theres probably a command/flag I can get rid of.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Blank Mauser, that sounds pretty <3.

I've always played Sonic as a side character, back when I play vBrawl and now in Brawl+. However, I always felt weird playing as him. I never really knew how I was supposed to apply all the different things he could do. I felt the same when I played him in Brawl+. I hope you guys can get a solid Sonic up and working. Maybe then I'd figure out how I'm supposed to use him correctly. =P

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Sonic sucks, mad **** yo.

 

[GHNeko]

Contribute or stop posting. >_>

 

[zxeon]

Sonic sucks, mad **** yo.

Contribute or stop posting. >_>

Isn't that a good enough contribution? Anything that makes Sonic better.
Don't mind me I'll be hovering around until Sonic is good enough to play.

 

[GHNeko]

Isn't that a good enough contribution? Anything that makes Sonic better.
Don't mind me I'll be hovering around until Sonic is good enough to play.

No. That is not. That is a ****TY contribution because it's not even a legit one.

 

[yami_sora]

Yeah there's no need to feed to troll either though, just let him post about how ****ty Sonic is. He's not that wrong right now anyways. =p

Blank, I love your list a lot and I eagerly await a .pac so I can test it out. I'll be sure to post tons of feedback too.

A few questions though if I may, what's going to be happening to Sonic's uthrow? I'm not sure if Sonic is supposed to be played this way, but I do a lot of uthrows, has good comboability, and kills when combined with the utilt.

Also, could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by killing sweetspot on the ftilt? As I recall you plan to make the furthest out hitbox the killing one right? How much of a sweetspot are we talking here. If it's gonna like kill Snake at 120% that will probably be overpowered. Could you give some sort of example? Like say, what would it kill an average weight character at from the center of Final Destination. Not exact numbers of course, just a rough estimate.

Otherwise I love your proposal. Your contribution is greatly appreciated.

 

[leafgreen386]

It sounds like it'd be fair if it killed mario without DI at 130% or so from the center of FD. The move should have decent base, though, imo, which would make the move most useful for just getting the foe offstage, rather than as an actual killer.

Ya'll need to get Dark Sonic in this thread to help work on this.

 

[yami_sora]

So would that effectively make his fsmash obsolete?

 

[leafgreen386]

Uh... doesn't fsmash kill like way earlier than that? I said 130% without DI. With DI, that wouldn't be until like 150% or more.

 

[yami_sora]

I guess, fsmash isn't that strong though. I guess I haven't really tested it to compare.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Yeah there's no need to feed to troll either though, just let him post about how ****ty Sonic is. He's not that wrong right now anyways. =p

Blank, I love your list a lot and I eagerly await a .pac so I can test it out. I'll be sure to post tons of feedback too.

A few questions though if I may, what's going to be happening to Sonic's uthrow? I'm not sure if Sonic is supposed to be played this way, but I do a lot of uthrows, has good comboability, and kills when combined with the utilt.

Also, could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by killing sweetspot on the ftilt? As I recall you plan to make the furthest out hitbox the killing one right? How much of a sweetspot are we talking here. If it's gonna like kill Snake at 120% that will probably be overpowered. Could you give some sort of example? Like say, what would it kill an average weight character at from the center of Final Destination. Not exact numbers of course, just a rough estimate.

Otherwise I love your proposal. Your contribution is greatly appreciated.

After some thorough testing, my plan is to probably have the sweetspot kill 30-40% later then Fsmash or so. Leaf probably has it right. Uthrow will most likely remain the same, as its a fairly good throw.

And yeah Dark Sonic helped with the maths involved for frame speed before, so he would be helpful right about now.

 

[yami_sora]

Well then bring him on in. =p

Do you think your list of changes will actually pass? Those are a list of changes based on a brand new .pac right? Not the existing one. The nair invincibility seems like it'll be the one you gotta fight for.

 

[Sagen du Smash]

Sonic Brawl+ 5.0 matchup guide (will be updated periodically)
This is a matchup guide I have created for Sonic in Brawl+. Its based off the 5.0 release of the game, so expect these matchups to change overtime as the metagame develops further.

Mario
- Overview: Mario has received several buffs in his design that make him a stronger opponent. Firstly, his aerial combo ability has been significantly improved in speed, and a slight increase in priority. While Sonic's priority in Brawl+ has remained mostly the same, his incredible plethora of new approach options, and increased speed of several of his key moves, makes him more than a match for Mario. Mario has a good projectile and can combo well, but offstage Sonic can gimp him quite easily, as once Mario uses his cape, his recovery becomes quite limited. This match-up is still quite even however, as a smart Mario player will have just as many tools to punish as Sonic does, and with his increased aerial combo ability, Mario can (and will) combo you if you give him the chance.

Mario PROS

- Great combo ability, goes even with Sonic in the air and has a better nair than Sonic's.

- Solid projectiles allow Mario to gain stage control, and with increased hitstun, the effects of these projectiles can affect Sonic even more than in VBrawl

Mario CONS
-Despite his improvements, Mario still remains a very basic character. Sonic's new advanced techniques and improvements are significantly greater than Mario.

- Mario's Fair is now useless against any decent Sonic and will get Mario gimped early.

- Recovery due to fastfalling is worse for Mario and Sonic can take full advantage of this.

How to Win
- When Mario uses his fireballs to space Sonic, use ASC to shield and approach.

-Use Sonic's new short dashing and long dashing abilities to keep Mario guessing. Sonic can (and should) shield-grab, but in Brawl+ because of his increased speed and grab range, he doesn't always need to.

- Once you get a grab on Mario, use Uair. When Mario is above Sonic, his options are very limited. Fair is useless, as for some reason the attack didn't gain any speed from VBrawl and Sonic can easily punish Mario out of it. Dair is fast and his priority. Run away from this attack with a foxtrot, then run back for a grab.

- If Mario uses cape to try to gimp you or reflect your attacks use Nair or a delayed Homing Attack. HA can now IASA into other B moves, so if you get a hit, use an ASC+Uair to get some damage in.

-Gimping Mario requires a bit of patience, but it is pretty easy once you bait Mario's defensive options. Run towards the edge, but do not pursue Mario until he uses Cape to slow his fall. Now Mario only has one option, his Up B, and unfortunately for Mario this move has no improved vertical range. Do a fast foxtrot, and as you jump off the stage Fair Mario. Sonics Fair is fast enough now to outprioritize Mario's Up B and send him far enough away that he won't be able to recover.

-Do not ASC against Mario as an edgeguard offstage. You probably wouldn't do it in VBrawl anyways but due to fastfalling, a single Cape will be enough for Sonic to be sent quickly downwards towards his doom.

- Don't underestimate Mario's FLUDD! Its knockback is now 5 times greater than what it was before, and when fully charged can gimp Sonic's Up B if he recovers under Mario. To solve this, HA Mario as he charges or unleashes the FLUDD. The attack will clank and Sonic's new IASA frames allow him to Spring over the water with ease.

(For those who don't know about Sonic's new dash abilities in Brawl+, tapping the control stick rapidly left and right will make Sonic instantly move left and right while remaining in the same place. Tap the stick and wait a brief moment and Sonic will do his foxtrot. Unlike in VBrawl, when you press in the opposite direction, Sonic won't skid, and will instantly move in the opposite direction. You can also grab directly out of Sonics dash animations, and the foxtrot in Brawl+ significantly increases Sonics grab range)

Matchup Summary- It's a pretty even match, but Sonic has the greater amount of new advantages in Brawl+ to give him the edge in this one. 55:45 Sonic's favor

Donkey Kong
- Overview: I always felt DK was an underrated character. Many overlooked him in VBrawl due to DDD's game breaking chaingrab on him. This didn't account all of DK's strengths, including fantastic attack range, priority and a fantastic horizontal recovery. Brawl + increases many of DK's strengths, increasing his attack speed and movements in the air, and with the removal of non-tech chaingrabs, DK has become a much more formidable opponent. So how does Sonic fare against the new DK?

DK PROS
- Completely outranges Sonic on the ground with all his attacks being faster, especially his Dtilt, which Sonics tilt cannot match.

- Bair was already a great move. Now its just nasty! with shorthops and fastfalling into the move.

- Grab range outprioritizes Sonics and DK can combo from his throws much better than before. B throw to Dair is scary...

DK CONS
- DK isn't the slowest character in the game, but he is no Sonic The Hedgehog.

- Sonic dash abilities allow him to get more grabs on DK than ever before (but you must still be wary of DK's grab range)

- DK has great horizontal recovery, but terrible vertical recovery. Spring spiking works well offstage.

- Sonics Fair and Uair now **** most heavies. Use and abuse.

How to Win

- You are outranged on the ground and while your Fair and Uair can match DK in the air, your Bair cannot compete with an ape foot on steroids. Stay moving constantly and use dash attacks to force DK into shield.

- Never spin dash at DK (or any heavy for that matter) from long range. He will simply use his superior range on his smash attacks to hit you right out of it. Plus with increased hitstun, heavies smash attacks are far more likely to outright kill Sonic at percents in the 100% range or even lower in some cases. Instead, get mid range and cancel several spin dashes before you attempt a full one. This will increase the chances of DK whiffing an attack, and while his attacks are powerful, his smashes are slow in nature and easy to punish.

- Space your Bairs against DK. You seriously cannot match his Bair, but you can read it and punish accordingly. Get a running start (which will increase Sonic's horizontal jumping distance as Sonic now has the fastest aerial movement in the game) then foxtrot backwards. Bait DK to aprroach with his Bairs as you foxtrot, then reverse jump your own Bair right into his face. Comboing with Bair is cake against DK, once you get the first hit, it will be easy to follow up with several more.

- Dthrow and Uthrow are your best throws against DK, because you can add lots of damage early on, or start tech-chasing to get him off the stage. My personal combo against heavies is Dthrow to a running approached Dsmash, because the increased hitstun makes it more likely that heavy characters will hit the ground, briefly stunned and open to attack. Also, because stale moves have been removed from Brawl+, Sonic doesn't have to worry about the move not having enough juice to get his opponent offstage. Once DK is off the stage, Fair rapidly until he is forced to use Spinning Kong and edgehog the ledge.

- If an attack by Sonic gets shielded or dodged by DK, expect a powerful tilt or long ranged smash coming your way. Use long range foxtrots to bait DK's tilts, then quickly rush in for a grab. Sonic's pummel is much faster in Brawl+, and against heavyweights like DK who can live to 200%, you need all the extra damage you can get.

Matchup Summary- Sonic has the speed to keep DK on the defensive and can gimp with his spring really well against DK, due to his limited vertical recovery. However Sonic cannot afford to make many mistakes, as just a few will get you KO'd dead fast. With DKs increased speed of his attacks and still incredible range, he only needs to punish Sonic 1/2 as much to get his KO's. 50:50 but slightly in DK's advantage

Link
- Overview: The Hero of Time has never done very well in Brawl, mainly due to his abysmal recovery. In Brawl+ his recovery has improved, but only from abysmal to slightly less abysmal. However Links ground game and air game have improved a lot. His sword attacks now combo much better into each other and he can wave dash into his Up smash. His aerials are much faster due to Links fantastic short hopping ability with his increased gravity. Plus Link is still blessed with a diverse and powerful set of projectiles including bombs arrows and his boomerang, all now with increased hit stun and combo potential. Despite all of these strengths, once he is offstage, this match quickly turns in Sonic's favor in Brawl+.

Link PROS
- Great projectile game against Sonic.

- More range on his ground attacks.

- Above average grab game thanks to his hookshot.

Link CONS
- ***** in the air in almost every way by Sonic.

- Will have a very hard time recovering against Sonic once offstage. Nearly every Sonic gimp tactic works easily against almost everything Link has.

-Predictable sword movements (and slower attack speeds than TL) are easy to foxtrot dodge.

How to Win

- There really isn't much to this match in Brawl+. Use Sonic's longranged foxtrots to bait Link into attacking and grab, grab GRAB! Link will quickly learn to hate all of Sonic's throws in Brawl+, due to the ease that Sonic can combo him and get Link offstage.

- The one thing you must be wary off that can turn the tide of this match in Links favor is his projectiles. If Link gains stage control through application of his ranged weapons, it will be very difficult for Sonic to gain control back, due to hitstun increase. Against Link's Bombs, learn to powershield, then long range foxtrot grab Link if he pulls out another bomb. Jump over Links arrows but don't attempt to grab him out of this attack, as it has virtually no lag after it, meaning you will get a blade in your hedgehog face. Against the bommerang, time an ASC over the attack, then grab Link out of it.

- Be wary of Links Bair, its now lightning fast and has surprisingly good priority. Space away from it, then retaliate with Sonics new and improved Fair, or a retreating horizontal Bair.

Matchup Summary- Once Link gets grabbed by Sonic+, its going to be a long and dark climb from the sea of combos Sonic will unleash. Get Link off the stage, and Sonic will take the win. 70:30 Sonic's favor
__________________

 

[iLink]

Here are some sonic ideas I posted earlier

- Make his f-air work in a similar fashion to pika's in regards to the landing lag but still keep the KB on the last hit.

- Give the initial hitbox of n-air a bit more KBG and make the rest of it work like wolf's which has multiple hits.

- Lower the cooldown on f-throw a bit.

- Make d-throw put them in front of you similar to g&w's d-throw.

 

[shanus]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Tilts[/COLOR]
-Ftilt: Killing sweetspot

[COLOR="Yellow"]Aerials[/COLOR]
-Nair:
Invincibility from frame 4-11
Hitbox size 12 from 9
Graphic added to match hitbox change
-Dair:
IASA frames

[COLOR="Yellow"]Smashes[/COLOR]
-Usmash:
Spikes at 265 angle
SDI Multiplier .1 from .6
-Dsmash:
Reduce KBG
Increase BKB

[COLOR="Yellow"]Specials[/COLOR]
-Extended invincibility on Side-B (14 frames from 6)
-Spinjump hitbox now comes out frame 1
-Homing attack has fixed trajectory, is instant, and can be canceled into side/down-B upon bounce
-Strengthen Homing Attack and give slightly more shieldstun

[COLOR="Yellow"]Throws[/COLOR]
Fthrow: Sends at a lower angle.
[COLOR="Yellow"]
Frame Speed Changes[/COLOR]
-Usmash Winddown
-Dthrow Winddown
-Dsmash Start-up+Winddown?
-Utilt Winddown
-Fair Landing Lag Reduction
-Nair Landing Lag Reduction
-Bair Start-up?

The list was shorter then I thought it would be. If I missed anything let me know. PSA stuff will be easy, but frame speed will take some maths. I'll shoot to get a pac and gct out before the end of the week.

Upsmash: SDI multiplier at .1? That's kind of silly, you should be able to reward solid SDI with a chance of escape, especially since you are increasing its utility dramatically. .6 is already very low (read: more difficult to SDI than even ness fair linking hits)

You can't give more shieldstun without directly altering the damage. You can adjust the hitlag which could give more advantage on block, however.

Nair: If you are adding both invuln to it AND a size multiplier, I think the initial hit knockback needs to be weaker compared to the current pac file.

Side B: 14 frames of invuln time seems a little silly. Well more than a little. Care to explain?

 

[yami_sora]

How much weaker would you want the bkb of his nair compared to how it is now?

 

[leafgreen386]

How much weaker would you want the bkb of his nair compared to how it is now?

I dunno how much the base would be lowered if at all. I dunno exactly what shanus was thinking of when he said that, but I think an appropriate level for it would be "not useful." Not useful for comboing and not useful for killing. If the nair gets invincibility, the most it should ever lead into is pushing a foe offstage or setting up a potential techchase. The move's invincibility will be comparable to wolf's current shine (the invinc for the nair will start only one frame later), and the move is gonna be doing a lot more damage when it hits. If this move combos or kills, too, it'll be very over the top.

 

[shanus]

I dunno how much the base would be lowered if at all. I dunno exactly what shanus was thinking of when he said that, but I think an appropriate level for it would be "not useful." Not useful for comboing and not useful for killing. If the nair gets invincibility, the most it should ever lead into is pushing a foe offstage or setting up a potential techchase. The move's invincibility will be comparable to wolf's current shine (the invinc for the nair will start only one frame later), and the move is gonna be doing a lot more damage when it hits. If this move combos or kills, too, it'll be very over the top.

Bingo.

Thanks for explaining for me

 

[yami_sora]

Ooh alright I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure I'd want to trade invincibility for all that utility though. I guess I'd have to play with it a bit first.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Upsmash: SDI multiplier at .1? That's kind of silly, you should be able to reward solid SDI with a chance of escape, especially since you are increasing its utility dramatically. .6 is already very low (read: more difficult to SDI than even ness fair linking hits)

You can't give more shieldstun without directly altering the damage. You can adjust the hitlag which could give more advantage on block, however.

Nair: If you are adding both invuln to it AND a size multiplier, I think the initial hit knockback needs to be weaker compared to the current pac file.

Side B: 14 frames of invuln time seems a little silly. Well more than a little. Care to explain?

I copied the SDI multiplier from Zelda's Usmash, I don't see anything unreasonable with it. If it can be SDI'ed then it loses the utility you claim would dramatically increase. Its really nothing better then the old Usmash speed-up which sent straight up and gave Sonic guaranteed Uair kills off the top at way too low percents. Not even Uthrow does that.

I was planning on adjusting shield hitlag, but not against altering damage. Shield hitlag just seems ideal for what I want though.

The knockback of nair will most likely be lowered back to his original nair, but maybe with a lower angle. On the other hand, less landing lag may be all he needs to capitalize after nair so meh.

As for the invulnerability, its honestly not that great. The disjointedness is its main use, but you'll rarely see the invincibility being taken advantage of, but if its really a big deal 6 frames seems fair.

14 frames for invincibility on side-B only makes it cover farther during his initial arc. Try side-B'ing through a fireflower and you'll see its not that big a deal. Pivot grabs, or just hopping back and spacing an aerial will punish it. It has barely any priority and the move is really easy to see coming. Its mainly for breaking through projectile campers or closing space, but once opponents adjust its doubtful you'll see it wrecking/hitting people alone. In my opinion, its not a threat otherwise.

 

[Magus420]

Zelda's u-smash is currently 0.30x and 0.40x and hits 10 times in the loops compared to Sonic's 6. If there's an issue with them escaping with 0.60x then the SDI isn't the real problem and is the KB/positioning of the hitboxes.

0.10x (what Zelda's originally had) might as well not even exist. A SDI with it is so insignificant that it is barely even noticeable in frame advance as you literally move no more than 2 or 3 pixels with a full SDI.