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Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

yami_sora

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I love your idea for sideB/downB but I think we should still differentiate a bit between the two attacks. My choice for the move to change is the downB because I like using sideB as part of my recovery.

Which attacks do you think should be sped up? Fsmash or any of the tilts?

Do you want his air game to be improved since he's up there so often? What do you think would help improve his links?

What are some good techchase options? Usmash? What else should be added?
 

yami_sora

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Well a natural Sonic style would be to have a really great pressure/mix up game and to have a few solid approaches and tech-chases. He wouldn't necessarily be a really strong killer of course but with high comboability he'd be able to gimp them or combo them off the screen.
 

Isatis

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If it was up to me, I'd make Sonic as Old Skool Canon as possible, because I'm just a Sega/Sonic Fanboy like that. :V
I'm a bigger fanboy, plus why don't you main Sonic? :(

I'm gonna converse with other Sonic mains to see what changes we can do with Sonic, but for now, let's not leave him bottom tier.
 

GHNeko

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I have 2000+ hours clocked on Sonic 3 and Knuckles ALONE.

I'm sure I'm a bigger fanboy.

I dont main Sonic because his moveset didnt mesh with my playstyle in Brawl.

I do play him, but is only at Sandbag level. No where near friendlies level.
 

Thunderhorse+

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I have 2000+ hours clocked on Sonic 3 and Knuckles ALONE.

I'm sure I'm a bigger fanboy.
I played Sonic 2006 and enjoyed it.

I'm sure I'm a bigger fanboy.

(that includes S ranking all characters' normal, hard, and very hard difficulty levels, which normally might not be a big deal, only it's Sonic 2006...).
 

yami_sora

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Rather than arguing about who the bigger fanboy is why don't we try to come up with a way to make Sonic viable in Brawl+. =p

Can anyone else add or change what I've already mentioned above?
 

jalued

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could u possibly make sonics grab actually have range? Cause atm that thing SUCKS. It honestly has no range, even Dash grabs. Really hurts his tech chasing ability :(

And what about if his startup for sideB, downB had heavy armor? would give him more approach options,

or even his entire sideB... is there anything called light armour per chance?

oh, also (slightly off topic), wasnt there an idea of slowing down tech rolls slightly (character dependant would be cool) , so that tech chansing is easier, as it is far too hard compared to melee and stupidly difficult for characters with a crap grab range *coughsoniccough*

Allow sonic to jump out of skid animation while keeping momentum.
oh and that too :p

from :V
 

GHNeko

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I played Sonic 2006 and enjoyed it.

I'm sure I'm a bigger fanboy.

(that includes S ranking all characters' normal, hard, and very hard difficulty levels, which normally might not be a big deal, only it's Sonic 2006...).
Nah. That just means you're not only a masocist, but you enjoy sub-par games with beastiality as an essential part of a story line.

Get at me. I still play s3k even after probably getting SSS on all stages and characters by now.

:V

Rather than arguing about who the bigger fanboy is why don't we try to come up with a way to make Sonic viable in Brawl+. =p

Can anyone else add or change what I've already mentioned above?
Allow sonic to jump out of skid animation while keeping momentum.
 

cobaltblue

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Would a little more priority on charged side/down Bs be possible? As it stands now just about any character can clank it and then punish sonic.

To also add to the list of his traits:

His nair is good at knocking opponents off stage and even killing them. However this comes at the cost of uair getting nerfed pretty hard.

His run to upsmash is great for mixing it up or against opponents who are getting up from the ground or short hopping.

His RAR'd Bair is iffy due to the fact he has short range to hit with it.

The various ways to cancel/move with his spin ball moves can aid with mind games but are usually just used for escaping.

Spring is good for getting out of almost every combo.

Dthrow would be great for tossing people off stage at a low trajectory for it not for the fact people can tech out of it and punish sonic for using it.
 

Mattnumbers

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Nah. That just means you're not only a masocist, but you enjoy sub-par games with beastiality as an essential part of a story line.

Get at me. I still play s3k even after probably getting SSS on all stages and characters by now.

:V
But he's so much of a fanboy that the new games are NOT sub par to him.

You, my friend, are a S3K Fanboy, not a Sonic Fanboy.

Which in my opinion is a much better thing to be :\/
 

Thunderhorse+

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But he's so much of a fanboy that the new games are NOT sub par to him.

You, my friend, are a S3K Fanboy, not a Sonic Fanboy.

Which in my opinion is a much better thing to be :\/
All of it is true (including the S3K fanboy being better).

THOUGH the one thing I will say is that one scene was in no way bestiality...though still extremely disgusting in many, many other ways.

Every other bad thing that is said about the game is 100% true :laugh:.

10TORNADOSCARRYINGCARS!
 

Isatis

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I have 2500 hours of Sonic 1, 2, and 3&K. G@ME.

Now let's get back on topic guys and move this to the Social Thread lol
 

Kitamerby

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Imo, he needs to be able to better abuse his speed.

AKA, we need to do something about Usmash, Dash Attack, and Grabs, as well as possibly a fix to a few aerials. Maybe we could give him less traction as well to aide in dash canceling (although it would make shieldgrabbing harder... so maybe not), or possibly increase the overall speed of his turnaround animation in case someone messes up on DDP?

I propose Uthrow killing at 120 no DI, since his best option at any time is generally a grab, and giving him a throw that kills with bad DI at mid-%s would be good considering that most people don't know how to DI it anyways.

Perhaps Fthrow could have less knockback or be less prone to DI to allow easier setups out of it, Dthrow's trajectory and/or endlag could be changed to allow more efficient tech chasing with it, etc.

Perhaps Dash Attack's weak hit could have more horizontal knockback as to avoid being punishable on hit as it is now.

Perhaps Fair's knockback trajectory could be changed instead to 363 or a similar trajectory with the ability to move the victim along with Sonic instead of having it dependent on the hitbox that connects to better link out of a dashing short hop.


I can haz bthrow suicide?

Just throwing out ideas here.

I've also heard a proposal somewhere of removing the momentum-altering of Sonic's Dair. I'm curious how that would change Sonic.
 

yami_sora

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I like the ideas to your throws but I don't know if I'd want the bthrow to be a suicide, then again even if it was I just wouldn't use it that way so it wouldn't be a big deal.

I definitely agree that his dash attack needs to be fixed a bit so it's not punishable.

I think his fair could be his best move too, you could make it a great kill move or a great combo move, or both.

I dunno if changing the momentum altering of his dair would really do anything for him though. As it is now you can sort of use it for mind games which isn't too bad.
 

iLink

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I'm just gonna throw ideas out there.

- Make his f-air work in a similar fashion to pika's in regards to the landing lag but still keep the KB on the last hit.

- Give the initial hitbox of n-air a bit more KBG and make the rest of it work like wolf's maybe.

- Lower the cooldown on f-throw a bit.

- Make d-throw put them in front of you similar to g&w's d-throw.
 

yami_sora

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Ok so far we're all mostly in agreement that something needs to be done to his fair, nair, and throws. We have to then agree on the best thing to do to them. That's what we should decide for all of Sonic's moves, from scratch.
 

yami_sora

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I think a majority of the people here want sonic to be rushdown/high pressure. His speed gives him the perfect starting point for that. I think that's all we should use right now, a starting point. We should start over.

Sonic, a hedgehog. A hedgehog barely alive. Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world's first bionic hedgehog. Sonic will be that hedgehog. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.

In all seriousness though, I think we need to start the character over, and agree on what each move should do, and how the character should play overall, without necessarily making him into a homo-genius that can only be played at high level one way.

We should look at each move carefully and then take our time deciding how that move should work. Then we can look at the next move and decide what to do to that, taking into consideration how we changed the previous move. That way his moves flow together smoothly.
 

GHNeko

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We have to decide a playstyle so we can gear the moves properties towards the playstyle.

Only thing I hear is a high rushdown/pressure. Talk to other Sonics. Bring it up in the Sonic xat or Sonic boards. I'll probably PM iSpin and bug Dark Sonic and Blank to become active in this thread. :V
 

GHNeko

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I wouldn't call rush down/pressure a form of bait and punish.

Diddy isnt like that, even though he more or less pressure and I dont think he has rush down qualities to him.

But if you disagree, what would you suggest in terms of potential playstyles.
 

WheelOfFish

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Except Sonic really isn't that great where he is. Ness wasn't Sonic bad at any point.

And from what I get, the plan is to rebuild Sonic, whereas with Ness, it was buffing everything ridiculously but not changing a not-so-effective play-style.

As long as an eye is kept on Sonic I don't see a problem with it.
 

Alphatron

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Sonic wasn't as bad as Ness in vbrawl. He was higher tiered, wasn't he?

Anyway, I'm not gonna talk about Ness in here.
 

Blank Mauser

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I think Sonic should be very mobility focused. As it stands, Pikachu, Fox and even Wario may not be faster then him, but they are all characters who have answers and approaches to high level play tactics. Sonic's priority is also just an inherent problem in his moveset, but I think it can be solved.

Since Sonic is lacking in priority, I think he'd definitely be the character suited to make use of some invincibility frames. Extended invincibility on his side-B would let him get through projectile walls while still being foreseeable and punished. The canon S3K nair can also be useful for clutch approaches or openings.

While the instant homing attack still has horrible priority and has relatively weak reward, the fact that its instant, returns Sonic to the ground, and cancels into Side-B/Down-B (Which of course cancels into another jump or shield) gives Sonic great maneuverability that is super flashy, fun to use, and I think will be a good asset giving Sonic players the spacing tools they need. Combined with the spinjump hitboxes now coming out frame 1 and he can start to punish people for getting too complacent.

With the big things out of the way, making sure Sonic's moveset makes sense along with fitting his playstyle becomes a new affair. I really like the spiking Usmash as an anti-air reward that doesn't always get guaranteed kills, but can lead to one on techchase. Its slow start-up and lengthy animation will keep it from being abusable. I do feel Sonic's grabs can all yield a reward of some sort. Bthrow and Fthrow should of course be good for getting them off the stage, with Bthrow killing at appropriate percentages. Uthrow can already kill an opponent without DI, since no DI lets you follow-up with Uair. The Dthrow speed-up that let Sonic punish techers was an obvious solution.

Kill moves; for a move he can techchase and kill with after spiking Usmash we have a few choices. The center of Nair's first hitbox would be fine without being a great buff on its own considering its range. I think if we decided to speed up Dsmash for this purpose I'd want to tone down its power so it doesn't overshadow Fsmash for every situation. Another dream of mine was to add a sweetspot to his ftilt, seeing as how Ftilt hardly has any pros over dtilt which comes out at the same speed. Its only advantage over it would be its range, which would make it an ideal move for a killing or low angle sweetspot. Some other good candidates for speed-ups (Besides the spiking Usmash and maybe Dsmash) would be his Utilt and Bair.

His off-stage game can be accentuated a bit. If the HA was strengthened it'd be a decent combo ender and edgeguard that looks nice too. I was also thinking of giving his Dair IASA frames allowing him to use his Dair spike on recoveries that are too telegraphed or predictable without Sonic dying.

Feel free to keep posting ideas and we can eventually get a good summary and a pac to test going. I think terms like rushdown/pressure and bait/punish are far too broad and vague to characterize an entire moveset. These are things all characters do, just interchangeably for different situations. In my opinion, Sonic should be able to move and space precisely in the hands of a good player, and haphazardly scary to the opponent. His punishment should be moderate, in exchange for being fairly safe himself and having good recovery. Of course theres much more to him, but overall Sonic players should be on their toes, have a great and constant sense of spacing, and control the flow of the match through educated capitalizing on openings, punishing overagressive players, elaborate and tricky setups, and locking the opponent in more complicated games of footsie then Falcon ever can with his lingering dash dancing.

Sonic wasn't as bad as Ness in vbrawl. He was higher tiered, wasn't he?

Anyway, I'm not gonna talk about Ness in here.
I'm not sure many Sonic mains really agree'd with his tier placing... But besides that, its a whole different game now.
 

yami_sora

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I like a lot of your ideas Blank but I still wonder if that's going to give him enough priority to get in there. I suppose giving his downB snake armor would be pretty broken huh? Also I do like the SK3 nair but if that's his only good approach would it become predictable?

About the ftilt, would you sweetspot it really early on the tip? I thought that move hit twice but I could be totally wrong.

As far as kill moves go, would fsmash ever be a viable option on tech chase? What if you sped it up and increased the knock back?

I dunno, I think you have summarized what most of us said pretty well and incorporated your own ideas to start laying out the foundation of Sonic+ 2.0
 

GHNeko

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Giving any form of Super/Heavy armor to Sonic would easily be un-canonical. :V

Also, Tech Chase Usmash is seriously seriously half-want half-do-not-want. And considering if we do go with a High Pressure/Rush Down sonic, I dont think tech chase usmash would even fit in a style like that.
 

Blank Mauser

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Usmash is a simple concept. Without any reward, its not worth using simply because its too slow and he has many better options with better follow-ups that are also less risky (Uthrow, Uair, etc.) With this, it makes it worth using with a potential kill follow-up, and we know kill moves has always been a problem with Sonic. The techchase doesn't guarantee the kill, unlike what a simple speed-up would do, so I think this is a perfectly fine way to make it useful.

Like I said, pressure/rush-down is too vague and broad to characterize a moveset. Usmash would simply be a way to rush in under floaties, or techchase people on platforms. Nothing Sonic clashes with.

The S3K nair wasn't my only idea for approaching. Side-B extended invincibility, and the instant homing attack that can cancel on bounce will also help Sonic get in. Giving Sonic priority oddly seems more unnatural then giving him more ways to make use of his invincibility. Also, the instant homing attack combined with the cancel adds new dimension to his game without veering him off-course. Its really flexible for movement and spacing, but it'll take some skill to incorporate it into your game. Its also relatively canon considering the Adventure games.

The ftilt would have the sweetspot as soon as Ftilt reaches max range. I'm fairly sure if we were to do that I could make sure it doesn't combo from the first two hits.

Fsmash would be viable on techchase given the right situation. For example they tech in place after an aerial, techroll and get stuck on the ledge, whiff a get-up attack etc. I'm okay with Fsmash the way it is now though honestly, his other smashes are what need attention.

I would argue even with these changes Sonic wouldn't be too close to the current top contenders. His matchups with them may change for the better, but tier-wise he wouldn't be as great. Besides that, Sonic changes have barely ever found a strong foundation so I would also argue Sonic hasn't even gotten a chance to prove whats "too good" for him.
 

yami_sora

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I understand what you're saying better now, but are you suggesting that even with these buffs he would remain a low tier character? Is there a way to ever pull him out of there? I'm not sure what else could possibly be done to improve him, unless we find a really solid way to make him a scary gimping character.
 

leafgreen386

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Hm, rush down/pressure. A high risk/ high reward, bait and punish play style?
I'm glad you brought this up. You're horribly wrong, yet in a way you're actually right.

It pretty much inherently shows the flaws in the thinking of making a character designed to play with a "bait and punish" playstyle or in a "pressure" playstyle. A character that is "bait and punish" will continually stay out of range of attacks and avoid them at all costs in order to provoke a misstep which can then be punished. Well, when you get right down to it, a character based around pressure does the exact same thing. The main difference is the method with which they avoid attacks. "Bait and punish" as a playstyle is more closely synonymous to "camp for an opening." So previously, sonic had to camp out his opponents and wait for them to make a mistake. But what happens when you give him a pressure game? Well, with a pressure game he forces you to make that mistake. Yes, yes, the character is still forcing mistakes when they play "bait and punish." But it's not the same kind of mistake. A mistake made when you're being pressured is a mistake on how to properly relieve that pressure. You cannot simply do nothing, since that would mean you succumb to the pressure. You have to act. When you're being camped, the easiest solution is to simply camp back; "doing nothing" is not only feasible against camping, it's practically encouraged, since a mistake made when being camped is picking the wrong time to approach. And of course, when pressuring, while your opponent has fewer options to defend themselves, and if they pick wrong, they will get punished, it's also easier for you to screw up, resulting in you taking the punishment.

In simple terms, pressuring and camping are two sides of the same coin. The only real difference is that one is proactive and the other is reactive. If you sit back and think about it in these simple terms, you'll realize that all characters use some combination of both tactics, and the line between them is blurred constantly.

You cannot build a character solely on the foundations of the sliding scale of pressure and camping, although it is an essential building block to begin the construction of that character. When you have a sufficient idea of where you want to be on the sliding scale of pressure and camping, you can begin fleshing out the other aspects of the character's game on how they're going to achieve that. It's good that you've picked a destination, but the hard part is planning the route.
 
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