Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[CountKaiser]

Why not?

Find the animation ID's and speed those up, if you have to.

With PSA, we should be able to determine which subaction goes with which action.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

If you're so sure that it's so simple/easy, why don't you do it yourself?

Anyway...so the Homing Attack doesn't having the homing, anymore? (That would make it simply called "Attack"...)

 

[zxeon]

No homing on HA anymore? That's quite a loss, but I don't really play sonic.

 

[Isatis]

Sonic's new HA is instant, but by making it instant it loses its "homing' feature.

Not like I used HA in the first place, but if the HA loses its homing feature, this means it just goes a short distance diagonally now?

 

[Dai Tian]

Sure sounds that way. Which makes it good for recovering but useless for anything else. Homing attack without homing? Lulz.

Hope something can be done about that. I was looking forward to an instant homing attack

 

[shanus]

it being instant is kind of silly tbh. I find the sonic mains are asking for a bit much here.

 

[Dark Sonic]

it being instant is kind of silly tbh. I find the sonic mains are asking for a bit much here.

Well, I was assuming that it would still have it's crappy tracking ability and would still be a very situational move as a result. The arc would make it a fairly telegraphed approach even though it's startup would be fast, and it's low priority would keep it from going through any attacks.

But if it now goes at a set distance (and at it's NON tracking trajectory at that) then instant homing attack really is too good. Aiming it becomes stupidly easy and it's at an angle that many characters may not be able to deal with (don't forgetting crossing up with a reverse neutral B ).

As much as I like the HA cancel...it just won't work with this version of "instant homing attack." Making the cancel only work on hit might be worth trying, but I have a feeling that taking out the cancel altogether would probably be the best bet for including instant homing attack.

Well, what do you guys think?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Its easy to combo into, but yields little reward on hit. This is pretty much one of the few ways HA is useful. The only reason I thought it may need canceling is because using HA on the ground is utterly useless since Sonic goes straight into the ground and bounces back up, but if Sonic mains just use it in the air it should be fine.

The cancel is so good because it lets Sonic instantly return to the ground, with a hitbox, and cancel into a spindash where hes free to jump cancel and repeat the process over again. The opponent can knock him out of it of course, but on hit its fairly abusable and even is cancelable into up-b if you really need an escape route.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

it being instant is kind of silly tbh. I find the sonic mains are asking for a bit much here.

I don't think anyone asked for it to be instant. People just wanted to be have a faster start-up, but due to no one knowing how to speed up the start-up (without making it instant), someone decided to try it out with it being instant.

Its easy to combo into, but yields little reward on hit. This is pretty much one of the few ways HA is useful. The only reason I thought it may need canceling is because using HA on the ground is utterly useless since Sonic goes straight into the ground and bounces back up, but if Sonic mains just use it in the air it should be fine.

The cancel is so good because it lets Sonic instantly return to the ground, with a hitbox, and cancel into a spindash where hes free to jump cancel and repeat the process over again. The opponent can knock him out of it of course, but on hit its fairly abusable and even is cancelable into up-b if you really need an escape route.

I guess this sounds somewhat interesting. If someone, one of these days, discovers how to simply speed-up the charging animation, then maybe testing out that (at somewhere between 25%-50% charge-up time) to compare with this current one would be ideal.

 

[GHNeko]

03:56 ghneko ...question
03:57 ghneko Why havnt the sonic mains actually added hitboxes to the parts of spin dash
03:57 ghneko that lack them
03:57 ghneko ie
03:57 ghneko when sonic turns around
03:57 ghneko <_<
03:58 RyokoYaksa Sonic mains >.>

srsly wtf guys.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Ahem, I added hitboxes to the start of Sonic's spin jump that was missing them. Turning around with spindash is hardly important. Nobody actually turns around with it, just jumps out of it. Not like it would matter much.

At one point I totally wanted to add invincibility to the turn around part, but hes obviously got quite a lot of that going right now...

 

[GHNeko]

kk. just making sure. :V

EDIT: No body turns around with it because of the lack of hitboxes lol.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

New to plussery, can you guys tell me some of the Abbreviations for Sonic? oh and what's the S3&K nair?

 

[GHNeko]

S3&K Nair = Insta-Shield.

Nair has invincibility frames in the midst of the move. V:

 

[CountKaiser]

Would anyone like me to try and see if the HA charge can be sped up?

I warn you, though, that I don't want this in the official set, since that will delay it even further.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Would anyone like me to try and see if the HA charge can be sped up?

I warn you, though, that I don't want this in the official set, since that will delay it even further.

Try it anyway. It may be useful in the set AFTER this set (you know, the one months away)

 

[Kei_Takaro]

So I finally got Brawl+ working, but what is your preffered buffering in Sonic+ (I'm not really sure on mine yet)

 

[Dark Sonic]

So I finally got Brawl+ working, but what is your preffered buffering in Sonic+ (I'm not really sure on mine yet)

I normally go 2 frames. I like low buffer

 

[yami_sora]

Sonic seems a lot sturdier in Gold but I miss his down smash. What are some good ways to hit into his up tilt?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

FYI, 5.0 RC1 is not "Gold". And up-tilt isn't really a combo move...

Edit: Well, I guess it's possible to link stuff after connecting with up-tilt, but as far are comboing into up-tilt, Sonic just has better options.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You don't really combo into uptilt, it's more like a retaliation move. Like if you know someone is approaching with an average priority nair or something, then you might be able to beat it out. You can also kinda combo into uptilt out of a d-tilt.

Overall though I find upsmash and shuair to be better options. They have more disjointed hitboxes with more range overall.

 

[yami_sora]

Ok thanks guys I'll keep that in mind. Also, is anything going to be happening to his nair? I remember some talk about it but never heard what was going to happen, if anything.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ok thanks guys I'll keep that in mind. Also, is anything going to be happening to his nair? I remember some talk about it but never heard what was going to happen, if anything.

WBR shot it down because S&3K nair with invincibility would give Sonic an unneeded combo breaker <_<.

Though we agreed that it'd be okay to just give him a S&3K "style" nair where it just comes out fast with a cool animation) and doesn't last long.

idk, we've got quite a while to figure out what we want to do with nair

 

[GHNeko]

It annoys me when people say "omfg this move has invincibilty! it's going to break combos!"

No. It is not going to break combos. You can never break combos. You can only break strings. And moves with invincibility aren't the only ones that break strings. Hell, Nair wouldnt even have invincibility on start up.

 

[cobaltblue]

WBR shot it down because S&3K nair with invincibility would give Sonic an unneeded combo breaker <_<.

Though we agreed that it'd be okay to just give him a S&3K "style" nair where it just comes out fast with a cool animation) and doesn't last long.

idk, we've got quite a while to figure out what we want to do with nair

I'd settle for just the animation being put in.

Still, I thought there was to be a set of nerfs to follow with the insta shield? Was shorting the invincible window looked into?

 

[Dai Tian]

+1 for some form of S3&K Nair making in to a future build. The move already hits relatively hard at the beginning, a nice insta-shield graphic to go with it is just awesome. Was the invincibility really that much of an issue though? I heard those frames weren't going to be at the beginning of the move so if someone managed to hit Sonic during those frames, I could imagine him being able to escape by jumping or springing out of there anyway.

 

[CountKaiser]

I thought the invincibility was ON the hitbox, not before it.

It won't be any more annoying a string break than Wolf's reflector.

 

[Dark Sonic]

well, with a new graphic it would probably get to have a bigger hitbox (and more disjointed too )

I guess the invincibility was rejected more on principle than for effectiveness (adding invincibility to moves is not exactly that common for buffing moves. )

 

[CountKaiser]

Yeah, but it's Sonic 3 and Knuckles, Sonic 3 and ****ing knuckles, how can you reject a canon move from arguably the best Sonic game ever made?!

Fanboy gushing aside, the bigger hitbox and added disjoint would be a nice thing to have.

 

[cobaltblue]

well, with a new graphic it would probably get to have a bigger hitbox (and more disjointed too )

I guess the invincibility was rejected more on principle than for effectiveness (adding invincibility to moves is not exactly that common for buffing moves. )

Disjoint + Graphics = Win.

I still have hopes the move will be considered after the new build. As imo I don't see sonic rasing high enough in the ranks to be considered done nor low enough to really justify invincibility. The disjoint would also balance with the fact all of sonic's other moves have (rightfully) low priority.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

So was there a reason why Homing Attack wasn't made cancel-able into another Homing Attack? Since there's no instant HA, it wouldn't be overpowered. (And it would make sense, since linking HA to HA is what Sonic does all the time in his games...so much that it's tedious.)

 

[cobaltblue]

I can just see kirby, DDD, and other slow jumpers getting dominated by that when they get thrown off stage.

 

[shanus]

None of you have a good reason for these nairs buffs aside from why not or itd be cool.....

 

[cobaltblue]

Being cool isn't reason enough? That is just plain hearsay!!

O well, that is what friendlies are for and we'll see how sonic does in the coming months.

 

[yami_sora]

How does Sonic+ do anyways? I mean, I play him and I do alright but I haven't really played too many high level players ever since KDJ went to Korea for the semester. In fact, I'm not sure I played any Brawl+ with him at all yet. I'm sure he would still destroy me though. That said, I haven't really seen too many matches or combo videos or anything with much Sonic. Is he still not a viable character?

 

[Dark Sonic]

None of you have a good reason for these nairs buffs aside from why not or itd be cool.....

It would help him avoid getting dominated by characters who can through out long lasting disjointed moves since he currently has no effective means of getting through them. Characters like Pikachu (fair), Kirby (bair), Wario (lot's of moves, especially bite, factoring in his aerial mobility makes it worse), DDD (of all characters right?), ect can just wall him out with high priority sex kicks and there's really not enough lag on them for Sonic to effectively punish, nor do they have enough startup lag to be intercepted. When the opponent decides that they are willing to really just use that one move all match, the fight becomes pretty one sided. Sonic doesn't have major problems with other characters because....they have enough lag for him to get in either after or before the attacks. But he has no method of even touching a character who has a long lasting wall.

A larger hitbox on nair (mostly for the disjontedness) at the BEGINNING would let him have at least have an answer to this situation, even if the hitbox itself only lasted for a short while. I'm not asking to change it into a sex kick to be used as a wall, I'm asking for some method to break aerial walls, as he currently has none. The strong hit of nair really doesn't combo into much either, so it's not going to turn these matchups around completely, but at the very least the opponent will have to use more than a few attacks.

That enough reasons for you? I've said Sonic was good before, but his bad matchups are really just abusing one move against him while he constantly has to run around waiting for the opponent to mess up their spacing on their own, since he has no way of forcing it.

 

[Revven]

That enough reasons for you? I've said Sonic was good before, but his bad matchups are really just abusing one move against him while he constantly has to run around waiting for the opponent to mess up their spacing on their own, since he has no way of forcing it.

This sounds SOOOOOOOOOOOO like the Wario and Sonic match-up. ROFL. (Bite goes through all of Sonic's approaches).

 

[shanus]

It would help him avoid getting dominated by characters who can through out long lasting disjointed moves since he currently has no effective means of getting through them. Characters like Pikachu (fair), Kirby (bair), Wario (lot's of moves, especially bite, factoring in his aerial mobility makes it worse), DDD (of all characters right?), ect can just wall him out with high priority sex kicks and there's really not enough lag on them for Sonic to effectively punish, nor do they have enough startup lag to be intercepted. When the opponent decides that they are willing to really just use that one move all match, the fight becomes pretty one sided. Sonic doesn't have major problems with other characters because....they have enough lag for him to get in either after or before the attacks. But he has no method of even touching a character who has a long lasting wall.

A larger hitbox on nair (mostly for the disjontedness) at the BEGINNING would let him have at least have an answer to this situation, even if the hitbox itself only lasted for a short while. I'm not asking to change it into a sex kick to be used as a wall, I'm asking for some method to break aerial walls, as he currently has none. The strong hit of nair really doesn't combo into much either, so it's not going to turn these matchups around completely, but at the very least the opponent will have to use more than a few attacks.

That enough reasons for you? I've said Sonic was good before, but his bad matchups are really just abusing one move against him while he constantly has to run around waiting for the opponent to mess up their spacing on their own, since he has no way of forcing it.

Well, its certainly better than every other post wihch had no reason behind it!

However, the characters you listed who can wall sonic, it seems it would require a significant size increase of the first hitbox to even dare compete with these moves. I think this would have more severe implications, especially in cases where sonic does not even require use of a disjointed nair. It seems that this dream nair will have to be *substantially* larger.

I suggest you draft up one yourself, and see how it goes, as this still seems a little too fishy.

 

[cobaltblue]

Well, its certainly better than every other post wihch had no reason behind it!

However, the characters you listed who can wall sonic, it seems it would require a significant size increase of the first hitbox to even dare compete with these moves. I think this would have more severe implications, especially in cases where sonic does not even require use of a disjointed nair. It seems that this dream nair will have to be *substantially* larger.

I suggest you draft up one yourself, and see how it goes, as this still seems a little too fishy.

Even with a slightly disjointed hit box that would still allow sonic the ability to punish moves slightly easier than his current self. As it stands now sonic has to completely mind game his opponent and pray he can land or clank a blow to allow for a combo to start.

Its not much sure but at least a match against marth, pit, MK, etc wouldn't turn into a dull dance around the stage game.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Plenty of people can wall Sonic. The invincibility is hardly practical but it helps, and combo breakers really shouldn't be worthy of concern. If the opponent gets punished for being overaggressive thats their own fault, its easy to outspace nair.

The new nair wouldn't change too many matchups but it would make some easier to deal with for sure. It could help him approach, while the side-B fix I made would let him get through projectile walls (Though most likely having to do some work to actually punish them.)

I don't see what the big deal is with invincibility on Sonic. In fact I wouldn't even warrant him good with the rejected changes. Terrible waste of a potential character. The new Bair speed-up is hardly helpful and neutral-B was left useless.

The idea with Sonic is that while he lacks the range and superior punch(lol) Falcon might have as a similar character, he can take advantage of more openings and feel safer doing it. However, as it stands now hes fairly trite. Many moves fulfill the same purpose, contradict each other, or are simply filler. The character makes no sense and definitely isn't an appealing choice for complacent contender in the slightest. Anyone who has a clue with the matchup will shrug him off, and anyone who doesn't wants to leave him an unorganized gimmick.