Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[Blank Mauser]

What you should do is just remove all the mods then test it. That way you know you aren't erasing half of one mod and breaking the code.

 

[iSpiN]

18 lines by itself? No hex required?

 

[DjNawo]

Hopefully wont erase anything...

 

[Blank Mauser]

You ALWAYS have to count the lines subtract 1 multiply 8 convert to hex and replace the last 4 digits of the first line.

This is mainly just to test to see if these changes work, so none of the other mods really matter.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Also, while testing, REMOVE SOME OF THE FRAME SPEED CODES.

When you max out, or even get close to maxing out the frame speed code limit, you start spilling into the memory used for the other parts of the game, possibly even other codes. That's because the game loads ALL of the frame speed codes, regardless of whether the character is even there (very inefficient and the reason that Almas is rewriting it). The hitbox code however only loads the codes when the hitbox is out (proccessing time for this is less than 1 frame, don't worry).

So...yeah (btw, the GCT I sent you had the Sonic bair added, which I didn't have during my test <.<)

 

[iSpiN]

Since the hitbox code is buggy as hell, who tried the Bair code?

Thoughts?

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Yeah I just started to play Brawl+ again :D. Its very odd and different from when I used to play. Combos are worse, the fair is weird, but still u throw combos are rapeeeeeee. I believe that the u-smash should have been kept as a tech chase or as a kill move, especially since you can hit with it from far distances. Overall I think Sonic is worse then when I played a few months ago. I am going to keep practicing and hopefully solve my dilemma about switching to the new Sonic.

 

[cobaltblue]

Has anyone here looked at the changes done to sonic over in balanced brawl? The light spike added to the spring on hit I thought was a interesting change and would like to hear what others here think of it in B+.

 

[iSpiN]

Light Spike + Hitstun = ****

 

[zxeon]

I haven't seen it. Sounds like a good idea though.

 

[cobaltblue]

I have not tried it either (too lazy to replace B+ with BB) but I honestly think this change would get far less complaints than the upsmash change which does significantly alter game play.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I didn't like that change at all. Sonic has always had flashy and amazing gimps. With such a change Sonic's great off-stage game is reduced to trying to land the spring. Not only is this a tedious affair for the opponent, but it also makes it probably the best option while Sonic's off-stage game is already sound as it is.

Also, as iSpin said. It wouldn't just be a "light spike" with hitstun.

 

[cobaltblue]

I do not know how much **** it would be, but if you reduce your entire game to trying to land the spring on the opponent then your game should already be called into question.

I know at least for my game I am rarely given the chance to drop a spring on someone without their return out prioritizing it to begin with. Any decent sonic main that is trying to pull off flashing gimping like they should be doing wouldn't even bother waiting for the opponent to get near the stage where they could attempt it safely but instead would be attempting gifts either mid way between the bounds and the stage by nair, fair, etc or going for the guaranteed KO of Bair to into the side of the stage. Even the homing attack would be a safer option if the opponent has a slow return ala jigglypuff or kirby.

But again as I have not tested it I concede the suggestion and take believe you two that the "light spike" in question is actually a guranteed KO under B+ physics. Still won't stop the few spring spikes I do mange.

 

[zxeon]

I see where Blank is coming from. That would get boring fast.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I do not know how much **** it would be, but if you reduce your entire game to trying to land the spring on the opponent then your game should already be called into question.

I know at least for my game I am rarely given the chance to drop a spring on someone without their return out prioritizing it to begin with. Any decent sonic main that is trying to pull off flashing gimping like they should be doing wouldn't even bother waiting for the opponent to get near the stage where they could attempt it safely but instead would be attempting gifts either mid way between the bounds and the stage by nair, fair, etc or going for the guaranteed KO of Bair to into the side of the stage. Even the homing attack would be a safer option if the opponent has a slow return ala jigglypuff or kirby.

But again as I have not tested it I concede the suggestion and take believe you two that the "light spike" in question is actually a guranteed KO under B+ physics. Still won't stop the few spring spikes I do mange.

If a return is outprioritizing spring then it would most likely outprioritize most of Sonic's aerials besides Bair, which is pretty slow already. So if you really were to go for the gimp you'd be straight up close, where a spring would do be able to do its job. Im not saying that it'll be a crazy good option but its one that makes itself available in a lot of places where Sonic's aerials already have a good niche. Not to mention its a horribly annoying change for the opponent to deal with, I'm sure they'd rather deal with Sonic himself. A well placed spring can actually beat quite a few recoveries.

Anyways, a few early changes I've been trying.

-Last hit of Usmash: 25 KBG from 153. 90 BKB from 70. Angle 270 from 75.
-First hit of Uair 5KBG from 100. 50BKB from 0.
-First hitbox of Nair 100KBG from 80.
-2nd and 3rd hitbox of Nair 20KBG, 60BKB, angle 85.

2F039946 0004B032
03195A00 010E0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
2F036400 00064033
03053200 00640000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
2F0B501E 00169033
0B641E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
2F085514 00169033
08143C00 00550000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
2F055A14 00169033
08143C00 00550000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

-Frame Speed for Usmash 2x at frame 19, 3x at frame 32.

2F200032 40400000
2F0D0032 40000000

DarkSonic might want to help me fine tune them when he gets back. I think Usmash might need a bit of work, and also considering lowering overall damage because of its new combo options. Any opinions would be appreciated.

 

[iSpiN]

This is the third time we've gotten some solid activity as soon as I come back.
I'll try to codes tomorrow Blank, I'm too busy editing all these songs into my Brawl, but as soon as thats done I'll try out your set.

On the topic of Spring, we already have hitstun which kinda already makes spring pretty good. Sure its only half at most of what what the light spike does in BB, but remember we can still Dair back to the stage > quick release the edge, and deliver a Bair to most of the cast. I would prefer doing that versus just having spring to be the OMG **** move. I'm siding with Blank when I say its just a bad idea.

Also, I don't like the Usmash Spike idea anymore. After thinking about it, sure, the Usmash doesn't combo or have a guaranteed or near guaranteed 'tech chase', but it puts your opponent above Sonic which is PROBABLY the worse case scenario the opponent can be in at anytime. And the fact it changes up his gameplay too much just like the spring spike it just doesnt' seem Sonicish to me.

And please don't forget about the change list. [Link]

 

[Blank Mauser]

This is the third time we've gotten some solid activity as soon as I come back.
I'll try to codes tomorrow Blank, I'm too busy editing all these songs into my Brawl, but as soon as thats done I'll try out your set.

On the topic of Spring, we already have hitstun which kinda already makes spring pretty good. Sure its only half at most of what what the light spike does in BB, but remember we can still Dair back to the stage > quick release the edge, and deliver a Bair to most of the cast. I would prefer doing that versus just having spring to be the OMG **** move. I'm siding with Blank when I say its just a bad idea.

Also, I don't like the Usmash Spike idea anymore. After thinking about it, sure, the Usmash doesn't combo or have a guaranteed or near guaranteed 'tech chase', but it puts your opponent above Sonic which is PROBABLY the worse case scenario the opponent can be in at anytime. And the fact it changes up his gameplay too much just like the spring spike it just doesnt' seem Sonicish to me.

And please don't forget about the change list. [Link]

If you want them to be above Sonic, then Usmash spike and then techchase with a grab and then Uthrow.

Its not changing his playstyle, its just making a near worthless move before into an actual rewarding one. It also compliments his new nair fairly well as a kill setup.

 

[cobaltblue]

I have never heard of the upsmash being considered worthless. While not an estiental part of his game, it does have its uses. Would not mind trying out your changes though.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I have never heard of the upsmash being considered worthless. While not an estiental part of his game, it does have its uses. Would not mind trying out your changes though.

As an anti-air it can actually be used to predict and punish a few things, but his grab or even Uair all lead to much better options, are safer, and require less commitment. Usmash has slow start-up and wind-down, and considering punishment is so harsh in this game it just isn't worth using compared to his other options. Now its a risky move that requires prediction but can setup for a techchase nair kill along with many other combo options if executed right.

 

[yami_sora]

Another new build came out tonight and still no Sonic changes? Is that bair going to be implemented or is Sonic pretty much done being changed? They really didn't do that much to tweak him.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I posted some changes, but I'm fine tweaking them. So far, I haven't seen DarkSonic at all and no one has commented on the changes I've posted. Ill try to get them into the next nightly, but the frame speed changes(Such as the Usmash and Bair tweak) will have to wait until the new engine.

 

[yami_sora]

New engine? Could you elaborate?

 

[Blank Mauser]

New engine? Could you elaborate?

The new engine has a more efficient way of handling frame speed changes. As of now, the data for frame speed leaks out into other areas when there are too many codes, so we're limited in that regard.

 

[yami_sora]

Oh I see. So is there a workaround that has yet to be made or are they not sure what to do about it?

 

[Plum]

New engine? Could you elaborate?

The engine is what handles the modifications to hitboxes.
The original hitbox mod engine code could only handle so many lines of code until it started to cause several problems throughout the game. Problems like characters freezing in their standing animation for example.

As of now, the current hitbox mod engine is full (or so darn close to full that adding things is risky business) so B+ can't really add many changes (like Sonic changes) until the new engine is done.

So basically the coders have been working on an overhaul to the engine that will give it not only more space for code changes but more possibilities in terms of what can and cannot be edited.

-Ninja'd

 

[yami_sora]

Thanks that helps, I hope they're able to get it working properly.

 

[shanus]

Yeah, we plan on adding them in to test them out, but they are kind of on hold till the new engines come into working order.

 

[Tsukizukun]

Love the Bair in 5.0! The upsmash is pretty good changed as well, I just love it. Never thought Sonic would be buffed so positive once again. Sonic+! *push*

 

[yami_sora]

Yeah I'm pretty happy with the changes too. So with that is Sonic pretty much done being modified?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

So I'm curious: was there a reason that homing attack was only made cancel-able with jump and d-special? Before, in that one article on brawlplus.net, it said it would be made to be cancel-able with ALL specials. I'm just wondering why it was decided to only be with d-special now.

 

[jalued]

So I'm curious: was there a reason that homing attack was only made cancel-able with jump and d-special? Before, in that one article on brawlplus.net, it said it would be made to be cancel-able with ALL specials. I'm just wondering why it was decided to only be with d-special now.

well surely if it was cancelable with upB and side B it would significantly boost his recovery (which is pretty dam good already)

 

[Perfect Chaos]

You can't cancel it unless you hit with it, so it wouldn't matter, regardless. The only thing that the cancel does is make it you can do stuff out of it faster, mainly for combo purposes. It doesn't really gain you distances for recovery.

 

[GHNeko]

JC HA on start up and wind down!

CAN YOU SAY MINDGAMES? WHO IS WITH ME.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It was SUPPOSED to be cancelable by all specials <_<. Guess Shanus just couldn't figure out how to get up B and side B working (though I could've sworn he got side B working once, just not up B)

 

[GHNeko]

So lets give him JC HA to compensate.

I mean come on.

MIND GAMES MAN.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So lets give him JC HA to compensate.

I mean come on.

MIND GAMES MAN.

Shanus said he couldn't do anything with the startup animation of HA. That means no cancels and no speedups. As for the rest of HA, making it jump cancelable during launch would just make it spammable as a psuedo long distance approach option (you'd lock on and then jump out at any point during the movement) and it would still be far too slow to be used for any kind of pursuit. So all that was left was making it do stuff when it's succesful (on hit)

Don't worry Neko, I did put SOME thought into this, as much as I knew it would still just be just another little gimick (I like gimicks though )

A larger hitbox would be more practical, but without any sort of speedup HA will just forever be a terrible move to try to land, so...it's the perfect move to try crazy ideas with

Also...S&3K nair. PSA can do it, but should we?

 

[GHNeko]

Sonic is nothing but a gimmick.

The blood and soul of New Sonic Team runs deep within him

We must remove this.

First, by replacing Nair with Sonic 3's Insta-Shield.

Second, by giving him melee techs.

Third, by giving him Taunt Canceling.

 

[Sora Master2.0]

I'm sure I will be flamed, but I dont mean any harm. D:
Anyways, I would like to know, with the release of PSA, would any of you mind changing Sonic's moveset. Have you eve felt, as though it's lacking? I mean, the vB and >B, there so similar, and I understand there are much different things that could be used for them, but maybe we could change one of them into something more suitable? Like the vB into the bounce bracelet from SA2B? It could work like Bowsers/Yoshi's vB. And maybe change his DAir into a spike? This would make Sonic more useable and reliable, especially considering that Shadow is being made and I don't want Sonic to get left behind(even though I'm more of a Shadow fan. XD)
But I'm sure the Brawl+ people could make a more reliable and combo ie type moveset. So what do you guys think?

 

[GHNeko]

PSA threads are <-- away.

Why would we even fathom something like that for official Brawl+?

 

[cAm8ooo]

Shanus said he couldn't do anything with the startup animation of HA. That means no cancels and no speedups.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGdAod20fR8

^^^ This guy did it (1:56). Atleast i think that's homing attack.