Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[iSpiN]

I guess for Sonic's uptilt all I would want is a slight lowering on knockback growth, other than that I don't mind it.

I did some messing around on Sonic's homing attack after hit. Even when getting of most of the lag it doesn't seem to be broken in anyway. But I'd like for others to try it out.

2F0081D1 40C00000

Now onto down+B. Not sure if these are the two hitboxes we need. The first one might be the only one that we need to change.

hb1
2F044641 0004611E
04464100 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000
hb2
2F072E32 0004611E
072E3200 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Needs testing by anyone who can do it.

I will work on some of it now and the rest when I come back home tonight.

*gets to work*

 

[Dark Sonic]

Infinite spring-in it's current form, the spring from the up B serves no purpose whatsoever. It doesn't even last long enough to be considered a gimik. The same would happen with a 10 second spring, or even a 20 second spring, because the spring itself is not IMMEDIATELY useful after putting it out. A permanent spring would allow Sonic to have the spring there when the situation to use it actually arises (which isn't often), as he wouldn't have to waste time setting it up again. It would also make for an interesting stage control game. Placing a spring under a platform prevents them from being able to drop through said platform. Placing it between the two platforms on PS2 or battlefield makes it harder for the opponent to reach flat ground. It has many more useful applications than you give credit for, and is a completely unexplored area of Sonic's game.

 

[DaiAndOh]

2F098064 3F800000
2F008064 3FA66666

B-air is 30% faster till frame 9, then returns to normal speed.

OLD FRAME DATA
-Bair
Hitbox comes out on: 13
Duration: 13-16
Ends:Frame: 37

NEW FRAME DATA
-B-air
Hitbox comes out on: 9
Duration: 9-12
Ends Frame: 33

You're welcome. Until we figure out how to implement the new frame engine you probably won't see this change in a while, considering we approve it. We are already seeing animation bugs as we get closer to the cap.

Maybe not the 100% right thread, but it was brought up, is the cap for code lines (I think that was what was referred to) greater with the GCT loader or Snapshot methods than the new Gecko? If so you guys can go back to those.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Why don't we simply MAKE it connect? We can alter BKB and KBG guys (though I'm actually fine with leaving uair alone completely)

On the topic of things linking together...why are you guys all thinking of speedups? Upsmash would link better if the hitboxes didn't have such high BKB (and the first hitbox has a suprising amount of KBG as well). Fair would link better if the center hitbox was translated backwards a little and then extended 5-10% (it could also link better if you made a few of the other hits send the opponent slightly more forward).

For homing attack- guys, buffing damage is such a mediocre buff. The best buff (that we can do) would be to make it's hitbox bigger so that he doesn't skim over his opponent's head without hitting them as often (fixes the whole "he aims at their back and misses" thing).That or eliminating all the ending lag (the reward is still small, but now the risk is small too )

Infinite spring-in it's current form, the spring from the up B serves no purpose whatsoever. It doesn't even last long enough to be considered a gimik. The same would happen with a 10 second spring, or even a 20 second spring, because the spring itself is not IMMEDIATELY useful after putting it out. A permanent spring would allow Sonic to have the spring there when the situation to use it actually arises (which isn't often), as he wouldn't have to waste time setting it up again. It would also make for an interesting stage control game. Placing a spring under a platform prevents them from being able to drop through said platform. Placing it between the two platforms on PS2 or battlefield makes it harder for the opponent to reach flat ground. It has many more useful applications than you give credit for, and is a completely unexplored area of Sonic's game.


I don't expect all of these changes to get in of course, but

Well Dark Sonic, the reason I posted my shoddy fixes was because I figured no one was willing to do the work of messing with a bunch of multi-hit moves' hitboxes.

And yes, I do believe the spring's uses are a little underrated. Put into practice it can only help. Anytime there is a disadvantageous use for it just make it disappear.

Edit: @DaiAndOh: We aren't reaching the cap for code lines, simply animation changes. The animation code is very processor intensive apparently and bugs out when theres too many changes, hopefully a new frame engine will fix this problem.

 

[GHNeko]

OH RIGHT. That reminded me. How possible would it be to make Sonic aim at the FRONT of the opponent's hitbox instead of the back. :V

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Permanent spring would also allow other characters to abuse it with D-airs, and other things like Kirby's Down-B. This may have been what Tenki was talking about. Actually, you could just spring jump again to stop them from doing that. So that wouldn't be a problem. That would actually be a problem if the spring was on a timer.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Why don't we simply MAKE it connect? We can alter BKB and KBG guys (though I'm actually fine with leaving uair alone completely)

On the topic of things linking together...why are you guys all thinking of speedups? Upsmash would link better if the hitboxes didn't have such high BKB (and the first hitbox has a suprising amount of KBG as well). Fair would link better if the center hitbox was translated backwards a little and then extended 5-10% (it could also link better if you made a few of the other hits send the opponent slightly more forward).

For homing attack- guys, buffing damage is such a mediocre buff. The best buff (that we can do) would be to make it's hitbox bigger so that he doesn't skim over his opponent's head without hitting them as often (fixes the whole "he aims at their back and misses" thing).That or eliminating all the ending lag (the reward is still small, but now the risk is small too )

Infinite spring-in it's current form, the spring from the up B serves no purpose whatsoever. It doesn't even last long enough to be considered a gimik. The same would happen with a 10 second spring, or even a 20 second spring, because the spring itself is not IMMEDIATELY useful after putting it out. A permanent spring would allow Sonic to have the spring there when the situation to use it actually arises (which isn't often), as he wouldn't have to waste time setting it up again. It would also make for an interesting stage control game. Placing a spring under a platform prevents them from being able to drop through said platform. Placing it between the two platforms on PS2 or battlefield makes it harder for the opponent to reach flat ground. It has many more useful applications than you give credit for, and is a completely unexplored area of Sonic's game.


I don't expect all of these changes to get in of course, but

Well yeah, that was sort of the idea...xD.

Not a bad string of suggestions.

And now the infinite spring actually has me interested...

 

[leafgreen386]

You can't trust just the data, guys. I think you're starting to see that for yourself now, with a move that you know has set kb, but is made of all growth and no base. One hypothesis someone posted (blank, I think?) was that a move with 0 base is considered to be set kb. However convenient that would be, a move with 0 base is not automatically considered to be a set kb move. Falco's bair and sheik's fair both have 0 base, but they clearly get stronger with percent. Put simply, there is another property of moves that we do not yet have the ability to edit, which defines whether a move has set or variable kb. Moves with set kb usually are made of primarily "growth." I believe this is because the "growth" value on a set kb move still varies with weight, just not with percent. According to colin's research, set kb moves use two separate "weights" to determine the kb a character receives; the number of set kb moves with some amount of growth and 0 base (as in... all of the ones I have seen so far) leads me to believe that the "growth" value is applied twice, once for each of the weights (of which one of them iirc relates to fall speed).

The more you know.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The spring will still go away if Sonic up Bs again so...not a problem.

In teams all the opposing team has to do is gang **** Sonic to prevent his partner from abusing it btw (before someone brings it up).

If the spring goes away when Sonic dies (has anyone ever tested this?) then I really think we could just remove the timer entirely. If it doesn't go away, then it should be out for a full 30 seconds. Basically, Sonic should be able to set up the spring, and then play the match AS NORMAL, only now there's a spring that the players can use.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

The spring will still go away if Sonic up Bs again so...not a problem.

In teams all the opposing team has to do is gang **** Sonic to prevent his partner from abusing it btw (before someone brings it up).

If the spring goes away when Sonic dies (has anyone ever tested this?) then I really think we could just remove the timer entirely. If it doesn't go away, then it should be out for a full 30 seconds. Basically, Sonic should be able to set up the spring, and then play the match AS NORMAL, only now there's a spring that the players can use.

The spring stays out even if Sonic dies. 30 seconds sounds like an okay timer for it. Obviously with the option to make it go away with another Up-B. I'm a pain when it comes to agreeing on stuff though. I rather see a slightly larger time <3 Like, 45 seconds. I'd live with 30 though.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Whats the time on Snake's C4? Isn't it like 20?

30 to 40 should be plenty of time probably. Not like it'd really hurt much to have it last longer.

 

[Zozma]

I once played with a codeset that eliminated half of the homing attack's lag after finish. I'm not sure if it was a nightly build or just a custom code my friend worked in, but I liked it a lot. I'm not sure how overpowered it was though, considering the move still doesn't do a good amount of damage, doesn't have tremendous knockback, and can still be avoided through invincibility frame spot-dodging/whatever.

You'd have to ask people who experimented with it more but I found it useful, but could have been too overpowered or too spammable. If that's the case try it with maybe 25% instead of 50% reduction? As of right now I'd say the lag at the end of the HA is just far too much to make it viable for much, but I'd like it to see some use.

 

[Dark Sonic]

45 seconds if fine. My only problem was that in teams the spring would remain even after sonic dies, but Sonic would be unable to get rid of it. This would allow a player to spring stall until the timer runs out if the spring was left out indefinitely. Basically, I want the spring to be out for no longer than a player would be able to reasonably stall for had the spring not been there. Stalling a match for 30 to 45 seconds is quite easy, so I guess that's a good estimate for the timer.

Then it's settled. We'll propse that the spring's timer be made to be 45 seconds instead of 4.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I know we can't edit the angle on homing attack, but can we edit at least the knockback on homing attack? I kinda wish Sonic's homing attack just had no knockback. Instead of a spike, they just fall down with hitstun. Sets them up for a bad position at most both on-stage and off, like a footstool, could have follow-ups with less lag, maybe?

I figured a high knockback homing attack would be frowned upon, but if its possible its not out of the question. Is it possible besides just editing damage?

 

[iSpiN]

Damage/KB/Speed can all be altered as far as we know.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I know we can't edit the angle on homing attack, but can we edit at least the knockback on homing attack? I kinda wish Sonic's homing attack just had no knockback. Instead of a spike, they just fall down with hitstun. Sets them up for a bad position at most both on-stage and off, like a footstool, could have follow-ups with less lag, maybe?

I figured a high knockback homing attack would be frowned upon, but if its possible its not out of the question. Is it possible besides just editing damage?

Homing attack unfortunately is very weird when it comes to KB adjustments (hence why we couldn't change the angle).

Even if we could however, a low kb homing attack would be very bad (hitstun is based on launch speed remember?)

 

[Blank Mauser]

Homing attack unfortunately is very weird when it comes to KB adjustments (hence why we couldn't change the angle).

Even if we could however, a low kb homing attack would be very bad (hitstun is based on launch speed remember?)

Well that sucks, give it shieldbreak and call it a day?

Nah kidding, but seriously I can't imagine it ever being a very useful move otherwise. It probably has more uses in play from hitting the ground then actually counting on hitting the opponent. I'll have to try out Giza's code later when I have the chance.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well that sucks, give it shieldbreak and call it a day?

Nah kidding, but seriously I can't imagine it ever being a very useful move otherwise. It probably has more uses in play from hitting the ground then actually counting on hitting the opponent.

We could make it have 0 end lag or something .

 

[Team Giza]

Side+B/down+B stuff

Initial hop(1.25x)
2F053646 0004611E
05364600  00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

On ground 1 (1.25x)
2F072E32 0004611E
072E3200 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

On ground 2 (down+B charge as well) (1.25x)
2F044641 0004611E
04464100 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

spindash jump (2x)
2F07493C 00169122
07493C00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 40000000

Charge jump (1.5x)
2F07493C 00169122
07493C00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FC00000

aerial down+B (multihit?) (1.25x)
2F0A4646 0004611E
0A464600 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

 

[Dark Sonic]

Side+B/down+B stuff

Initial hop(1.25x)
2F053646 0004611E
05364600  00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Spindash Roll (1.25x)
2F072E32 0004611E
072E3200 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

ASC [first hitbox] (1.25x)
2F044641 0004611E
04464100 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

ASC [multihits] (1.25x)
2F0A4646 0004611E
0A464600 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

spindash jump (2x)
2F07493C 00169122
07493C00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 40000000

Side B charge jump (1.5x)
2F07493C 00169122
07493C00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FC00000

Re-labled with Sonic acronyms

Giza is a god.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Sorry for the newbie question, but how do I go about adding these to my set?

 

[iSpiN]

I've always replaced coding for myself. But I can't get it to work this time around.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Add the hitbox changes at the end of the "hitbox property mod data" code.

Then count the number of lines in the code after the first line and multiply it by 8. Convert this number to hex. Replace the last section of the first line with this number (using the latest nightly build the first line should now read 065A9800 00001A70). That bolded number is the byte count. The italicized zeros are simply placeholders

The codes don't HAVE to be in order, we just put them in order for our releases to make it easier to keep track of things and to avoid intertwining codes, such as putting Pit's d-tilt change in the middle of Sonic's f-smash (this would cause Sonic's f-smash change to not work and possibly freeze the game).


For the frame speed code...do the same thing.

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://img401.imageshack.us/i/spindashchargejump2.jpg/
http://img401.imageshack.us/i/sdj.jpg/

Spindash charge jump and SDJ!

NOW WITH RANGE!

More pics coming never!

 

[yami_sora]

Hey just out of curiosity and off topic so bear with me, was there ever a discussion to make Sonic's dair spike?

 

[iSpiN]

Hey just out of curiosity and off topic so bear with me, was there ever a discussion to make Sonic's dair spike?

I dunno, why don't you look @ my list cause thats why I made it.

Also, the pics look fantastic. Makes me want to cry. :')

 

[yami_sora]

Haha I admit I looked at the list but didn't scroll down that far. I apologize.

 

[Browny]

so i played B+ today (4.1) for the first time and used Sonic a fair bit. I know you guys dont want this to be a community project coz too many peoples have opinions etc.

I just felt it was far too easy for my opponents to DI the fair and end up getting sent backwards. normally this is controllable in regular brawl since the Sonic player can DI backwards and unless the enemy is like, wario or jiggs, they cant always force themselves to go backwards. Obviously transferring Sonic's run momentum to his air speed is what causes this, and makes it far less useful as an edeguarding tool :/

So yeah make of that what you will... Just an observation I thought could use some looking in to

 

[Dark Sonic]

Pressing shield before jumping from a dash will allow you to cancel your dash with a shield and lose all of your dash momentum. It's very useful for spacing.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Spindash/Charge comes in handy there too. Using an aerial out of them cancels all of your momentum.

If you don't have enough time for that, nair works for an edgeguard as well.

 

[iSpiN]

Yeah, I used 6/10, DS's hex (even double checked), and used Giza's code about 5 times now (restarting from scratch every time) and I can't get the code to work. I even tried x20 for the hitbox. ._.

But the Bair is solid. You can have the option to Uair > Bair as long as they don't DI out of it and its a solid move.

Also, Dark Sonic, did Giza say that we CAN'T make HA faster?

ps- Grounded Spin charge =/= iSDJ.

 

[Dark Sonic]

ps- Grounded Spin charge =/= iSDJ.

*sigh,* no what I said was that JUMPING immediately after releasing a spincharge (by pressing C-stick forward or backwards), is (or at least used to be called) instant spindash jump.

It in fact IS just a spindash jump. THEY HAVE THE SAME ATTACK ID.

It is not spinshotting at all, and I don't know why you insist that it is. Spinshotting is interupting a phase change with your second jump and it ALWAYS takes away your second jump by it's very definition. It also cannot be down out of a grounded spincharge because you need to be airborne (the first frame of side B release makes you go airborne btw) in order to use your second jump, which is required for spinshotting. You can even look at the Sonic thread about the differences between down B and side B to see it (though, the whole replacing words with steak and **** is quite annoying).

The simple fact is that spindash jump does not have a hitbox until frame 6. That's why you kept missing Pikachu and you will CONTINUE to miss Pikachu. My pictures show that Sonic's SDJ not only covers his whole body now, but actually EXTENDS a little bit past his body.

P.S. yes, Giza said that we cannot decrease the startup lag of homing attack.

 

[iSpiN]

Oops, meant to say Grounded Spinshot, my message was rushed. And I agreed with you that night. I think I was delirious from fatigue.

Want me to just go ahead and delete my pictures then DS?

*sigh* Guess I'll save my giant wall of text for another day.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Want me to just go ahead and delete my pictures then DS?

Well, delete any pictures involving SDJ (either out of an SDR or directly out of an SC) on characters who aren't ridiculously tall (so basically, anyone but DDD, Bowser, Snake, ect.)

 

[iSpiN]

Fixed the pictures.

Okay, Dark Sonic or whoever got their hitbox code to work, can you send my your .txt file so I can compare mine from yours. Me and Giza couldnt' figure it out last night.

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=28f282b833fd00d6c79b87b207592a1cd29891077dcca2a45621d66e282a0ee8

That should work for you (once again though, the hitbox changes are small. It's really only noticable on the two moves I've shown pics for).

 

[iSpiN]

Yeah... my game is beginning to freeze to things such as Bowsers Utilt and Pit's Dtilt. We must be pushing the limit at this point. Did someone mention Almas is coming up with something to remedy this?

 

[GHNeko]

Yea. He did. :V

Maybe that's your problem. Remove a few un-needed frame changes simply for testing purposes.

 

[iSpiN]

Which ones can we remove?

 

[leafgreen386]

Which ones can we remove?

Anything you don't plan on using when you test it.