Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[goodoldganon]

2F098064 3F800000
2F008064 3FA66666

B-air is 30% faster till frame 9, then returns to normal speed.

OLD FRAME DATA
-Bair
Hitbox comes out on: 13
Duration: 13-16
Ends:Frame: 37

NEW FRAME DATA
-B-air
Hitbox comes out on: 9
Duration: 9-12
Ends Frame: 33

You're welcome. Until we figure out how to implement the new frame engine you probably won't see this change in a while, considering we approve it. We are already seeing animation bugs as we get closer to the cap.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I could really care less about the uair and HA. Just time the hit so you only hit with the final one, and don't use HA at all. Simple enough.

Grounded spring staying out longer, in my opinion, is more of a "for sh*ts and giggles" buff first, and the very few actual buffs that come out of it are perks.
If it didn't happen, I wouldn't lose any sleep.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I don't have super amazing experience with Brawl+, but from what I've played, I've always been able to follow up U-airs by chasing. Hell, you can DI Sonic's D-tilt fully to the right at over 200%, and Sonic can still chase and get a U-air while you're in hitstun. That's a lot of hitstun.

I did like the idea for the spring, and I think I'm actually the one that came up with the idea when Brawl+ just got started. It just doesn't seem practical though. The only benefit it would have is putting the opponent above you. Which is where Sonic thrives. That's also another reason I don't like the U-smash spike. Sonic's ground game is garb compared to just his U-air. U-air is that good.

 

[iSpiN]

2F098064 3F800000
2F008064 3FA66666

B-air is 30% faster till frame 9, then returns to normal speed.

OLD FRAME DATA
-Bair
Hitbox comes out on: 13
Duration: 13-16
Ends:Frame: 37

NEW FRAME DATA
-B-air
Hitbox comes out on: 9
Duration: 9-12
Ends Frame: 33

You're welcome. Until we figure out how to implement the new frame engine you probably won't see this change in a while, considering we approve it. We are already seeing animation bugs as we get closer to the cap.

Wow, the new Bair is freaking amazing! I'm in love.

Too bad we can't put this in a nightly anytime soon. Adding it to the list.


So have we considered taking the Uair buff idea out. We have considered not buffing HA. And also done discussing buffing Ftilt, Dtilt, and Fair?

 

[GHNeko]

What are your thoughts on Utilt?

 

[goodoldganon]

What are your thoughts on Utilt?

One of Sonic's main weakness is aerial approaches from that angle. Buffing u-tilt further will help negate that weakness, something we shouldn't be doing. Play to his strengths. I'd like f-air to be better at comboing since it seems to knock too far away for any follow-ups, but I only fight Sonic, not play as him.

 

[iSpiN]

Less damage for Fair so it can combo? We have already gone through that before and we didn't like that idea.

Utilt? I hardly use it cause I have Dtilt. But you can Dtilt > Utilt > Uair.

 

[Zozma]

Don't weaken his fair. I find myself getting a lot of off-stage kills with it BECAUSE of the knockback, and reliable kills for sonic are usually still situational and I wouldn't want to lose that.

 

[iSpiN]

Don't weaken his fair. I find myself getting a lot of off-stage kills with it BECAUSE of the knockback, and reliable kills for sonic are usually still situational and I wouldn't want to lose that.

Yeah, I don't remember when, but we didn't like the idea of losing Fair.



Also, THE [List] has been updated again.

It looks a little different now and I've added all the stuff we agreed NOT to add a while back.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Fair can combo pretty well. The only problem is that they can DI it behind Sonic, completely ending any combo you could be pursuing. If there was a way we could stop that from happening, the move would be absolutely perfect.

I love utilt. Such good range above him, and such good comboability. I'd even say it's his best tilt overall, honestly. It doesn't need any sort of buff whatsoever. Sonic's tilts are fine.

 

[GHNeko]

tbh, I rarely see a Sonic, Brawl or Brawl+ use utilt. :V

Maybe that's just me though. Grab > Uthrow seems to be better than Utilt at times, especially when you can DC Grab with sonic (Its is important as hell for sonic not to be punished.)

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Well, utilt can lead into a grabs, and it does 14% rather than the 12% of a uthrow, so it's actually more favorable at lower percentages. Not very punishable either due to so little lag.

The range above and in front of him is a pretty awesome AA attack as well. Faster startup than usmash, less lag, and combos better.

 

[iSpiN]

Non of Sonic's tilts need to be touched.

Spring seems more of a gimmick the more and more I think about it.

Neko, no Sonic's use Utilt, its just one of those moves.


Also, I'm updating the list like crazy. XD



Also, more BKB on Dair. BKB creates more shieldstun so if Sonic's Dair is shielded he would be in a much better position.

I do not take credit for it, it was Team Giza's idea.

 

[yami_sora]

You're doing a great job with that list. I really like all the thought and consideration you guys are putting into the character.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

U-tilt can be combo'd into from the first hit of U-air. It's basically, Sonic's one true combo into a KO move that he has in Brawl. It doesn't KO until high percents though. Especially when you factor in DI. I don't see anything that could be done to make U-tilt better in Brawl+ unless you made it kill earlier. It's already Sonic's strongest attack by percent. Not including charged smashes, or multi-hit ASC.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I use utilt. D:
I still stand by that it's is awesome. It just gets less use because it's harder to DC than dtilt, and has much the same applications on grounded opponents.

And come on, it totally looks like Falcon's usmash. Which is awesome. >.>

 

[yami_sora]

Shame it isn't as strong as Falco's usmash.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

U-tilt also pokes through platforms. It's also one of his best options on areas that you're able to use moves straight out of a spindash roll. It's just a very situational move. It does have its uses though.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Uthrow can lead into Utilt on FF'ers, which is pretty decent for combos with the sped up endlag.

Honestly, the spring will have more uses then you guys give it credit for. A bad position is a bad position, and tell me how being able to go twice as far off the stage and also twice as high wouldn't play on Sonic's strengths. You also wouldnt have to commit to lag on certain moves such as Dair if used right, and think of the uses in teams. Honestly, you don't see the grounded spring get much use other wise. Setting it up takes too long and your limited to only doing what you want with it for a certain amount of time. I'd say a spring that lasts until next use would be ideal, it only lasting 10 seconds wouldn't change much if at all.

If people don't want Uair to link better thats fine, like I said you can hit with the later hitbox to make use of it. I think people are getting the wrong idea of making it "Less DI-able" though. iSpin, thats really not a good way to word it. Really just making the first hit link better into the second hit was the plan, its nothing like Fox's Uair which Fox can repeat way faster.

Usmash has a ton of potential as an anti-air, and covers a lot of things Uair doesn't answer to. It just takes more commitment to land, which is why I see a techchase as a much more beneficial reward. Sets them up for a Nair to kill, or a combo of your choosing, also techchases through platforms fairly well.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Uthrow can lead into Utilt on FF'ers, which is pretty decent for combos with the sped up endlag.

Honestly, the spring will have more uses then you guys give it credit for. A bad position is a bad position, and tell me how being able to go twice as far off the stage and also twice as high wouldn't play on Sonic's strengths. You also wouldnt have to commit to lag on certain moves such as Dair if used right, and think of the uses in teams. Honestly, you don't see the grounded spring get much use other wise. Setting it up takes too long and your limited to only doing what you want with it for a certain amount of time. I'd say a spring that lasts until next use would be ideal, it only lasting 10 seconds wouldn't change much if at all.

If people don't want Uair to link better thats fine, like I said you can hit with the later hitbox to make use of it.

Usmash has a ton of potential as an anti-air, and covers a lot of things Uair doesn't answer to. It just takes more commitment to land, which is why I see a techchase as a much more beneficial reward. Sets them up for a Nair to kill, or a combo of your choosing, also techchases through platforms fairly well.

It's also a free 26% not accounting for all the uairs or pummels you can work in. >.>

In teams, grounded spring would be absolutely awesome, and it would likely get a lot of use there.
In singles however, it's simply too long of a set up, and the only way it would help anything is if your opponent keeps recovering high and you want to uair them to their doom. Admittedly awesome, but they'll probably see through your clever trap when you're actually using the spring on the ground at all.
Again, I see this as a "for sh*ts and giggles" change anyway, so I'm sort of on the fence.

Agreed.

 

[Blank Mauser]

It's also a free 26% not accounting for all the uairs or pummels you can work in. >.>

In teams, grounded spring would be absolutely awesome, and it would likely get a lot of use there.
In singles however, it's simply too long of a set up, and the only way it would help anything is if your opponent keeps recovering high and you want to uair them to their doom. Admittedly awesome, but they'll probably see through your clever trap when you're actually using the spring on the ground at all.
Again, I see this as a "for sh*ts and giggles" change anyway, so I'm sort of on the fence.

Agreed.

Well its not too long of a setup if it lasted until next use. Spring, Dair back down, leave it there and you'll find uses for it. Its not like you have to do it all in one sitting. And there are more indirect uses for it then just forcing them into the air. Like I said, Sonic would be able to spring twice as high, spindash off the stage, and do other such shenanigans right when he needs it. This way, he wouldn't have to set it up beforehand.

 

[goodoldganon]

The bigger down-b hitbox isn't ready to be coded till someone finds the hitbox ID for it. PK is on vacation and Almas has a lot of bigger and better things to do. So find someone with a USB Gecko to help you out and then I'll look into that.

 

[iSpiN]

Team Giza is working on it right now ganon. He contacted me on AIM and told me he wants to do something to Usmash/Dair as well.

On the topic of Spring. If we were to put it on, I wouldn't want to remove the timer, but rather make it 8-10 seconds long.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

It sounds like a neat idea for teams. Especially when teaming with a character with strong aerials, but happens to be slow. LolSnake. I don't see a point on giving it a timer. Making it so it stays until Sonic spring jumps again gives him control of it. Still seems pretty pointless in singles. Sonic can already chase offstage as far as he wants.

 

[Team Giza]

Why would you want to change Sonic's U-air? It already has amazing range, and combo potential. I rather see Brawl+ stay away from looking like Smash64 as much as possible, and making moves less DI-able would not be a step in that direction. You should have to predict, and follow your opponent. Not close your eyes, and do set combos without hesitation.

I agree with you for the most part. However, people can fly out of the first hit of the u-air way too easy.

Details on some move to help you decide on buffs:
Uair weak hitboxes
hitbox 1
3 dmg, 100 knockback growth, 0 base knockback, 100 degree trajectory angle
hitbox 2
3 dmg, 100 knockback growth, 0 base knockback, 118 degree trajectory angle

I would suggest lowering the knockback growth and raising the base knockback.

On the topic of HA. HA will always be an awful move. If it was good, it would be broken. I don't see there being any reasonable buff to making this move worth using. The risk is always too much.

I'm sure we can find a way to buff it to not be awful and not be broken. I'll try to work a code out by later tonight.

Homing attack hitbox details
8 dmg, 80 knockback growth, 45 base knockback, 20 degree trajectory angle

 

[iSpiN]

Any idea why Tenki wanted to prevent the spring staying PD?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Sonic can go pretty far off-stage, but not with any move he wants, complete with a double jump, spinshot, and even another spring handy.

I'm curious as to what Giza is doing with Dair, Usmash and homin attack lol.

Wow, the weak hitboxes on Sonic's Uair are horrible it seems. I think if we buffed it we should reverse the KBG with BKB and tone it down a bit. As it stands the move just gets worst and worst for linking.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I agree with you for the most part. However, people can fly out of the first hit of the u-air way too easy.

That's why you hit with the second part. If you all want to make the move harder to get out of, that's fine. I just don't want to see it lose any of its functions, like pulling enemies into it from the side, or setting up into U-tilt. U-air has a very large hitbox, and if that gets screwed up, Sonic loses half of his game.

I'm sure we can find a way to buff it to not be awful and not be broken. I'll try to work a code out by later tonight.

The only way I could see HA being useful is if it had less ending lag on missed, shielded, or hell, even landed attacks. But then you risk making the move easily spammed. You can make the move do 20+ percent, but it would still be a move not worth risking.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Infinite spring, I will concede would be pretty awesome to have. Still think it's more for the fun of it than anything, but eh. If others want it, then I won't object.

And actually, SDR jumping leaves Sonic with all of the above and doesn't cancel his aerial momentum until he jumps out of it (rather than when he reaches the peak of his jump like a normal running jump does).

EDIT: @PD
Hitting with the second part with Sonic's aerial momentum requires completely different spacing than hitting with the first hitbox and much more commitment. I can see where the idea to make uair link better is coming from, actually. Not necessary, but it would remove a little annoyance that's been there since aerial momentum was implemented.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Sonic can go pretty far off-stage, but not with any move he wants, complete with a double jump, spinshot, and even another spring handy.

I'm curious as to what Giza is doing with Dair, Usmash and homin attack lol.

Wow, the weak hitboxes on Sonic's Uair are horrible it seems. I think if we buffed it we should reverse the KBG with BKB and tone it down a bit. As it stands the move just gets worst and worst for linking.

Making him go off any further just seems unnecessary. You can accomplish gimps without the grounded spring. That would just be making it easier. As for the U-air, are you talking about the first hit? The first hit has set knockback, which is a good thing. You can't change that.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Making him go off any further just seems unnecessary. You can accomplish gimps without the grounded spring. That would just be making it easier. As for the U-air, are you talking about the first hit? The first hit has set knockback, which is a good thing. You can't change that.

Actually, from the data Giza posted, the first hit has NO set knockback. Instead, the knockback grows with percent, scaling with 100 knockback growth. Thats probably why its so easy to DI out of.

SDR is kind of limited to that arc it jumps in though Tatsuman, and doesn't leave you high enough for DOUBLE DAIRS. We shall see if the grounded spring truly comes into play. Honestly I don't see any harm in removing the timer.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Any idea why Tenki wanted to prevent the spring staying PD?

I'm not sure, but it's Tenki. I'm sure he has a valid concern.

Actually, from the data Giza posted, the first hit has NO set knockback. Instead, the knockback grows with percent, scaling with 100 knockback growth. Thats probably why its so easy to DI out of.

I have no idea what that means. I just know first hit of U-air combos into U-tilt if the U-air is canceled on the ground, lol. And that doesn't seem to change at any percent.

 

[iSpiN]

Fine, leave the spring there, take the timer off, I no longer care. lol

3% is a lot of percent for that 1st hit of Uair, lol. But I agree with PD on if Uair is messed up you will screw Sonic over. D:

Yeah, I still don't get Tenki's reasoning. But if he makes an issue out of it we should at least hear him out cause really, when does Tenki freak?

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm not sure, but it's Tenki. I'm sure he has a valid concern.



I have no idea what that means. I just know first hit of U-air combos into U-tilt if the U-air is canceled on the ground, lol. And that doesn't seem to change at any percent.

Basically the move doesn't have set knockback, and instead just has MASSIVE knockback growth. Its like the KBG and BKB are reversed lol. Im pretty sure so long as we reverse the two right that would still work, it would just link better and people wouldn't be able to randomly fly off to the side like they can now.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

First hit of the uair definitely has a set knockback.

No noticable difference between 999% and 0% in terms of knockback from what I'm getting.

I had thought that the move had 3 hitboxes, but it appears I'm mistaken.

 

[Team Giza]

I guess for Sonic's uptilt all I would want is a slight lowering on knockback growth, other than that I don't mind it.

I did some messing around on Sonic's homing attack after hit. Even when getting of most of the lag it doesn't seem to be broken in anyway. But I'd like for others to try it out.

2F0081D4 40C00000

Now onto down+B. Not sure if these are the two hitboxes we need. The first one might be the only one that we need to change.

hb1
2F044641 0004611E
04464100 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Needs testing by anyone who can do it.

edit: Probably won't work

 

[Blank Mauser]

First hit of the uair definitely has a set knockback.

No noticable difference between 999% and 0% in terms of knockback from what I'm getting.

I had thought that the move had 3 hitboxes, but it appears I'm mistaken.

Im wondering then, what does Brawl take into account with 0 BKB moves?

Also, the move still may have 3 hitboxes. The hitboxes Giza posted are the two weak hits.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

As long as it doesn't mess anything up, then I don't see anything wrong with the change. It would be nice to get the whole 9% the attack does, instead of the 6%. That's an incredibly weak aerial, lol.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Okay, there are 3. One seems to have a set knockback, and one seems to be designed to make you flub the second hit.

The sides of his first hit uair send inward and up, but way too high to connect with the second hit. The middle (being generous, this hitbox seems much bigger than the other) send up with a very low set knockback and links into the second hit when you aren't flying past them with momentum.

EDIT:
Okay, BOTH have a set knockback. O_o
The side hitboxes that make you whiff the second hit also have a set knockback, but a really good distance for a set knockback move...

Odd...

 

[Team Giza]

Mauser and Tatsu are correct. The move has 3 hitboxes in all.