Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[iSpiN]

There really isn't much wrong with Dtilt other than floaties can easily get out of it. I am calling it very unnecessary.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

D-tilt is really good. Sonic needs more moves as useful as D-tilt <3

Edit: I really like the idea of time removed on grounded spring staying out. I assume it would vanish when you Up-B again, right? It would make for some neat set ups, and traps. It's my favorite NEW idea for Sonic.

Double Edit: Lol, HA spike would be so hawt/broken

 

[Blank Mauser]

D-tilt is really good. Sonic needs more moves as useful as D-tilt <3

Edit: I really like the idea of time removed on grounded spring staying out. I assume it would vanish when you Up-B again, right? It would make for some neat set ups, and traps. It's my favorite NEW idea for Sonic.

Double Edit: Lol, HA spike would be so hawt/broken

Pretty much disappear until next use, only grounded springs of course. Not only would it be a neat trap, but he could pretty much go twice the height and edgeguard twice as far. The possibilities for it would just have to be looked into.

Also, if there was ever a problem with the Up-B staying out forever that was disadvantageous for Sonic then just use up-B again and make it disappear.

And yeah, Dtilt is a very useful move, which is why I want it to have a little more options out of it on all characters.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Yeah, it would give Sonic a neat stage control similar to the way Snake controls the stage with explosives. The only problem with that though, is that someone landing on the grounded spring suffers from no lag on the way up. When Sonic Up-B's, he's stuck in the creepy smile animation until he reaches the top of the jump. When Sonic, or his opponent jump on a grounded spring, they're free to throw out an attack at any point.

D-tilt with less ending lag would set up combos easier on the floaties. It is a good move though already. I wish other moves had as much use though. F-tilt is a move that wants to be good, but is stuck being mediocre. Would it hurt to give it more KB power, or damage?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Yeah, it would give Sonic a neat stage control similar to the way Snake controls the stage with explosives. The only problem with that though, is that someone landing on the grounded spring suffers from no lag on the way up. When Sonic Up-B's, he's stuck in the creepy smile animation until he reaches the top of the jump. When Sonic, or his opponent jump on a grounded spring, they're free to throw out an attack at any point.

D-tilt with less ending lag would set up combos easier on the floaties. It is a good move though already. I wish other moves had as much use though. F-tilt is a move that wants to be good, but is stuck being mediocre. Would it hurt to give it more KB power, or damage?

Yeah I figured the lack of lag after a spring jump might lessen some of the traps, but at the very least it sets them in a bad position, and Sonic can also Dair the spring himself and have no lag on it also. I'm sure there would be some uses for it.

Honestly, what I was thinking for Ftilt was to have it come out sooner. Right now both Dtilt and Ftilt come out in 6 frames, and Dtilt is just so much more superior in almost every way. 4 Frames would make Ftilt a pretty good punisher, while less endlag on it would make it a decent poke. One of the two would be ideal for me, because I've honestly never been fond of damage buffs. Other then that, theres always changing it to hit at a lower angle, but a lot of the combos a Dtilt would set up for would still probably be better then what Ftilt would set up for. Why use Ftilt to set up for edgeguard when you can use Dtilt to Fair?

 

[Arkaether]

Blank, there's no need to have every single move be useful. Take, for example, Marth's ftilt/bthrow or Jigg's dtilt. I'm not pushing a buff for jigg's dtilt because she's a **** good character without it, and I doubt anyone will push for any buffs at all to Marth for obvious reasons. You guys are apparently giving Sonic a lot of buffs, so why not just leave ftilt alone? The less changes, the less general *****ing from the community.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I find ftilt to be much less punishable than dtilt on a block or whiff due to its multiple hitboxes, and it works better on floaties. Both are fine moves, and neither are in the same league as Jiggles' dtilt.


Ftilt and dtilt really don't need buffs. They could be better, but they're by no means bad moves like his utilt used to be.

 

[iSpiN]

Spin Charge (Down B) Modifier

Okay, I was about to go to sleep last night until I decided to play a little more with Sonic since I wasn't tired anyways. Well, after tinkering with Sonic and practicing on a dummy Pikachu I began taking the Charge Hitbox modifier into consideration and maybe 10-15 would maybe not be enough. I had not familiarized myself fully on how large the hitbox of Spin charge actually was and this is some of my findings.

While I thought 10-15% would be plenty for the buff, I think I was wrong. AT THE LEAST we should have it around 25%. Here is my reasoning for this.

As you can see from the two models I constructed in photoshop, this is how it would look like if we managed to up the hitbox to 25%. It isn't asking anything that much at all, in fact its very reasonable.

By the area of I have circle'd, you can very well tell there is an animation surrounding the wanted hitbox so unlike the Nair we do NOT have to worry about a missing graphic. [w/o Circle]

From the frontal view you can see what I am discussing much clearer. This is probably the best viewpoint of the hitbox you can get. [w/o Circle]

This is just a basic Spin Charge Jump. If you notice Sonic was standing NEXT to Pikachu and did NOT hit him with the hitbox. Yeah, this is pretty old news, but when you take the buff into consideration you can imagine the uses this could do. Spin Charge Jump would actually have more of a use at this point.

An SDJ cannot hit Pikachu while he is grounded, I would assume a larger hitbox would hit Pikachu, even for his height.

Releasing a grounded by your opponent will hit them. If we ever incorporate Dark Sonic's idea for a tech we can release it next to the opponent come back and hit them again, at least it sounds possible.



Now, does the Sonic+ board agree that 25% should be the percent used to buff Sonic's Spin Charge (Down B)? Or does someone else have a better percent they would like to share?

Edit: [List Updated]

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Wow, that hitbox is absolutely pathetic. o_o;
Fricking Rest would've almost connected on Pikachu from that distance. xP

Sonic's spin moves/tricks are a lot of his metagame in vBrawl, and they're synonymous with his character. As such, having his spin moves actually have something that resembles a decent hitbox has my full support.

25% is fine with me.

 

[iSpiN]

Double Edit: Lol, HA spike would be so hawt/broken

Check the list, its one of the things we can't do.

[List of Justice]

D-tilt with less ending lag would set up combos easier on the floaties. It is a good move though already.

This is the reasoning why I don't want it to be buffed. I mean, we haven't even discussed how many frames would be removed or anything. But its not lacking by any means, its just a few certain characters.

I wish other moves had as much use though. F-tilt is a move that wants to be good, but is stuck being mediocre. Would it hurt to give it more KB power, or damage?

Meh, Sonic doesn't necessarily need it, but if we found some good reasons too then sure.

Blank, there's no need to have every single move be useful. Take, for example, Marth's ftilt/bthrow or Jigg's dtilt. I'm not pushing a buff for jigg's dtilt because she's a **** good character without it, and I doubt anyone will push for any buffs at all to Marth for obvious reasons. You guys are apparently giving Sonic a lot of buffs, so why not just leave ftilt alone? The less changes, the less general *****ing from the community.

I agree with Neko on this one. We don't need to do anything to Ftilt and imo Dtilt. Ftilt can just stay the way it is and Dtilt can remain great, but not amazing. If you wanted to do anything with Dtilt, I would consider changing the trajectory, not the frame speed, imo.

Wow, that hitbox is absolutely pathetic. o_o;
Fricking Rest would've almost connected on Pikachu from that distance. xP

Sonic's spin moves/tricks are a lot of his metagame in vBrawl, and they're synonymous with his character. As such, having his spin moves actually have something that resembles a decent hitbox has my full support.

25% is fine with me.

Yeah, rest would have probably hit Pikachu at that range. I seriously couldn't believe how close I came to Pikachu on that SCJ. *sigh*

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I've actually found ftilt pretty useful for setting up techchases at certain percentages (accounting for fall speed, of course). If I'm not mistaken, it also has a slight disjoint and pretty good range for a tilt.
If you want to buff it, reduce the cool down. Still don't think it's needed. >.>


Spinning ball of doom is INSIDE PIKACHU'S SKULL and it still doesn't hit him...xD

 

[iSpiN]

I've actually found ftilt pretty useful for setting up techchases at certain percentages (accounting for fall speed, of course). If I'm not mistaken, it also has a slight disjoint and pretty good range for a tilt.
If you want to buff it, reduce the cool down. Still don't think it's needed. >.>

Sonic doesn't need to have any of his tilts messed with anymore. They are all usable in some form or fashion and if thats the case then we're doing better than some of the cast.

Spinning ball of doom is INSIDE PIKACHU'S SKULL and it still doesn't hit him...xD

That made me laugh, lol.


Edit:

We need to decide if we want to edit Homing Attack, Usmash, or Nair. I'm sure we still want the Usmash spike, but what do we want for it?

 

[zxeon]

I'll go as high as 100% if it's needed good work iSpin

 

[iSpiN]

I'll go as high as 100% if it's needed good work iSpin

Thanks, I wouldn't dare thinking of going below 25%. I'm kinda afraid to do anything around 50%. Can you imagine all the Down B spammers? XD

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Sonic doesn't need to have any of his tilts messed with anymore. They are all usable in some form or fashion and if thats the case then we're doing better than some of the cast.

Agreed.

That made me laugh, lol.

We need to decide if we want to edit Homing Attack, Usmash, or Nair. I'm sure we still want the Usmash spike, but what do we want for it?

I would like HA to be useful, but he doesn't need it and we can't mess with it enough to make it useful and still punishable. Just leave it how it is so HA kills can still be hilarious.

Nair, I'm fine with now. Buffing its kill power will get no objections from me, however.

Usmash spike I would really like to return. Usmash is by no means a bad move, but it basically has the same utility as his utilt with more knockback and more startup/cooldown.
The angle should send straight down at Sonic's feet so it can't actually spike without horrible DI though. Sonic's already got good edgeguarding options and such a high priority spike would just be ridiculous.

 

[iSpiN]

I would like HA to be useful, but he doesn't need it and we can't mess with it enough to make it useful and still punishable. Just leave it how it is so HA kills can still be hilarious.

Nair, I'm fine with now. Buffing its kill power will get no objections from me, however.

Usmash spike I would really like to return. Usmash is by no means a bad move, but it basically has the same utility as his utilt with more knockback and more startup/cooldown.
The angle should send straight down at Sonic's feet so it can't actually spike without horrible DI though. Sonic's already got good edgeguarding options and such a high priority spike would just be ridiculous.

Usmash- I don't want it straight down, nor a killing spike. I want it 1-2 character lengths in front of behind Sonic. I think Neko already covered the options you have if that happened. I'm sure everyone will not want it to be in front of Sonic, so it would have to be behind him, either way is fine with me.

Homing attack- We have options out for HA due to more hitstun, but it still can be a risky move. It currently does 8% and has very poor priority. All I want to do is maybe give it 3% more damage to balance the risk/reward.

Nair- I dunno, I guess it can be fine as is, I just imagined more. I guess we can just keep it as is unless someone can actually come up with someone logical for it.

Also the list is updated: [List]

goodoldganon, I put the frame data for Bair on the list if you are looking for it.

 

[yami_sora]

Down B 25% larger hitbox sounds good to me, but I would still like to see something done with the nair and fair though.

 

[iSpiN]

What can we do to Fair?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Blank, there's no need to have every single move be useful. Take, for example, Marth's ftilt/bthrow or Jigg's dtilt. I'm not pushing a buff for jigg's dtilt because she's a **** good character without it, and I doubt anyone will push for any buffs at all to Marth for obvious reasons. You guys are apparently giving Sonic a lot of buffs, so why not just leave ftilt alone? The less changes, the less general *****ing from the community.

Hey, when someone mentions the move I mention potential fixes. Honestly, I don't expect every change to be made.

Nair is decent with the current change it has as far as killing is concerned, but not so sure about the combo potential. It could be better if we gave it less landing lag for follow-ups, and its range as a kill move wouldn't make it too spammable. Actually I haven't tested killing percentages, but if anyone else feels it could both kill and combo better then speak up.

Usmash spike is my main want. I think its fine spiking behind, but I'm thinking it may need a speedup and also for the second to last hitbox to spike also. Multi-hit moves truly just become less and less of a problem when people learn to DI, and theres no doubt they will. Instead of modifying every hitbox we could speed the hitbox frames up entirely and just increase startup time, though its already pretty long. Combined with more frames that spike, the actual techchase would be worth way more then the damage a few Usmash frames could do.

The 25% hitbox enlargement for ASC sounds reasonable, just keep those pics handy to justify it to curious people.

 

[yami_sora]

Well if there were a way to make it less DIable that would be useful since the killing hit is at the end, unless you wanted to change the killing hit to some place else.

 

[Tenki]

...


anyway, iSpiN told me something on the sonic xat about some talk about keeping spring for an unlimited amount of time.

Don't do it.

Even Snake's explosives don't stay out forever. Spring currently lasts 4 seconds I think. If you really want to push it up, 10 seconds would be the upper limit that I'd set on it.

 

[iSpiN]

According to leafgreen we can't make some moves less DIable and Uair may not be possible.

Nair is decent with the current change it has as far as killing is concerned, but not so sure about the combo potential. It could be better if we gave it less landing lag for follow-ups, and its range as a kill move wouldn't make it too spammable. Actually I haven't tested killing percentages, but if anyone else feels it could both kill and combo better then speak up.

Well, the Doc Nair is out... Why would we make it have less landing frames? It barely has any now. I mean, how many does it have now?

Usmash spike is my main want. I think its fine spiking behind, but I'm thinking it may need a speedup and also for the second to last hitbox to spike also. Multi-hit moves truly just become less and less of a problem when people learn to DI, and theres no doubt they will. Instead of modifying every hitbox we could speed the hitbox frames up entirely and just increase startup time, though its already pretty long. Combined with more frames that spike, the actual techchase would be worth way more then the damage a few Usmash frames could do.

Agreed.

The 25% hitbox enlargement for ASC sounds reasonable, just keep those pics handy to justify it to curious people.

Don't worry, I put the link by the buff.

...


anyway, iSpiN told me something on the sonic xat about some talk about keeping spring for an unlimited amount of time.

Don't do it.

Even Snake's explosives don't stay out forever. Spring currently lasts 4 seconds I think. If you really want to push it up, 10 seconds would be the upper limit that I'd set on it.

Sounds reasonable to me. Objections?

 

[yami_sora]

Well in that case did you have any ideas for the fair?

 

[iSpiN]

Well in that case did you have any ideas for the fair?

Why do we even need to do anything with Fair?

 

[yami_sora]

If you can't do anything about the DI then I don't think we do. I think it's fine as it is.

 

[Blank Mauser]

You could make moves either link better, or just speed up the move so theres less frames to DI. In fact, Fair could be sped up so only the last hitbox hits and we could up the damage on that to compensate, but I think most people might find that broken. Fair is well off as is. Uair I still think something could be done with, I may have to experiment with this one myself, though I guess its not really priority right now. Technically making a move "less DI-able" isn't a possible stat to change, but making it link better should work.

Snake's C4 really isn't comparable to Sonic's spring. And really, more often then not Sonic would have to use his spring to recover sometime, while Snake doesn't always necessarily need to use his C4 to recover.

Sonic's Nair currently has 7 frames of landing lag.

 

[iSpiN]

Don't we have a limit on frame speed codes?

 

[Blank Mauser]

They're working on removing it, I questioned that too when things like Luigi's up-B was slowed down by 1 frame lol. But yeah, don't worry about frame speed changes.

 

[iSpiN]

So just make Uair faster? Usmash faster? Less landing frames of Nair?

 

[Arkaether]

I agree with Neko on this one. We don't need to do anything to Ftilt and imo Dtilt. Ftilt can just stay the way it is and Dtilt can remain great, but not amazing. If you wanted to do anything with Dtilt, I would consider changing the trajectory, not the frame speed, imo.

Wat. Since when was I GHNeko.

v:

 

[Blank Mauser]

I was still going to try changing the angle, giving no KBG and changing BKB a bit.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Usmash- I don't want it straight down, nor a killing spike. I want it 1-2 character lengths in front of behind Sonic. I think Neko already covered the options you have if that happened. I'm sure everyone will not want it to be in front of Sonic, so it would have to be behind him, either way is fine with me.

Homing attack- We have options out for HA due to more hitstun, but it still can be a risky move. It currently does 8% and has very poor priority. All I want to do is maybe give it 3% more damage to balance the risk/reward.

Nair- I dunno, I guess it can be fine as is, I just imagined more. I guess we can just keep it as is unless someone can actually come up with someone logical for it.

Also the list is updated: [List]

goodoldganon, I put the frame data for Bair on the list if you are looking for it.

Not a bad idea, I suppose. With that though, I see a lot of Sonic players u-smashing at the edge in hopes to set up for a gimp. And unless the spike is pretty pathetic, it could actually kill a Bowser or DK without a second jump.

Quite honestly, you'd have to give it way more damage to actually "balance" the risk/reward. All it takes is an AD, spotdodge, or even grabbing the edge to dodge and completely throw off any potential use it has as a recovery. The move is almost completely useless.

Agreed, I suppose.

EDIT:
10 second spring sounds reasonable, I suppose.

 

[iSpiN]

Wooops, double post.

 

[iSpiN]

Quite honestly, you'd have to give it way more damage to actually "balance" the risk/reward. All it takes is an AD, spotdodge, or even grabbing the edge to dodge and completely throw off any potential use it has as a recovery. The move is almost completely useless.

Not completely but VERY close to it. Right now it has very few options to combo out of DownB/SideB.

Wat. Since when was I GHNeko.

v:

Since I saw the :V

@Blank: Wait, what move are you discussing, Usmash?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Not completely but VERY close to it. Right now it has very few options to combo out of DownB/SideB.

Well yeah, but uair can hit out of those as well. And it combos better, and can kill better.

It can be used, there's just no reason to use it over anything else. Marth bthrow syndrome.

 

[iSpiN]

The irony is that its one of his best moves in his games though. <.<

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Irony sucks, eh?

The move would be ten times less awful if invinciframes didn't throw of the targeting, but alas. Can't modify the thing at all.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Why would you want to change Sonic's U-air? It already has amazing range, and combo potential. I rather see Brawl+ stay away from looking like Smash64 as much as possible, and making moves less DI-able would not be a step in that direction. You should have to predict, and follow your opponent. Not close your eyes, and do set combos without hesitation.

On the topic of HA. HA will always be an awful move. If it was good, it would be broken. I don't see there being any reasonable buff to making this move worth using. The risk is always too much.

Also, the more I think of a grounded spring staying out, the dumber it sounds to me. I don't really see any purpose for it. It would just make matches take longer.

 

[goodoldganon]

Why would you want to change Sonic's U-air? It already has amazing range, and combo potential. I rather see Brawl+ stay away from looking like Smash64 as much as possible, and making moves less DI-able would not be a step in that direction. You should have to predict, and follow your opponent. Not close your eyes, and do set combos without hesitation.

On the topic of HA. HA will always be an awful move. If it was good, it would be broken. I don't see there being any reasonable buff to making this move worth using. The risk is always too much.

Also, the more I think of a grounded spring staying out, the dumber it sounds to me. I don't really see any purpose for it. It would just make matches take longer.

I agree with all of this.

 

[iSpiN]

Lol PD, I thought you liked the idea for the spring. But what if we buff the damage of HA some? It would do something for it.

Also, as I said before, it may not even be possible to make the moves less DIable. But PD makes a point, even if the move is DIable can't we still chase them anyways?