Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[yami_sora]

I was thinking of Weegee, as he was who I played most in Melee and I was definitely aware of how his sex kick worked. =p

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Really, it's all a matter of taste.

Aside from being curled with a slightly retracted hitbox sooner with a little more commitment, there are no distinct advantages on either side. Just different timing for the combo and kill hits.

 

[yami_sora]

Right, thing is though I feel that nair should be a kill move going with or without the sex kick idea if his other ariels are easy to DI and Sonic doesn't have much of a ground game to speak of. Not with smashes like his.

 

[iSpiN]

Considering a Doc Nair would take several frames for it to be killing material then Nair wouldn't be a great killing tool. It would be used to combo mostly @ that point.

 

[GHNeko]

Really, it's all a matter of taste.

Aside from being curled with a slightly retracted hitbox sooner with a little more commitment, there are no distinct advantages on either side. Just different timing for the combo and kill hits.

But really, which would work better for sonic?

 

[yami_sora]

Well that's why if you wanted it to be a killing move you'd pull it out prematurely and have the last hitbox be the one to connect.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

But really, which would work better for sonic?

Depends on what we want it used for.

As it appears we're going for killing, then normal sex kick style is probably best.

 

[iSpiN]

Considering the normal Nair is 6-46 frames of hitbox I would rather use Bair if I had to wait till the 40's to get my kill move. <_<

 

[yami_sora]

why can't they both be kill moves? Lots of characters have more than one kill move so why does Sonic only get one?

 

[iSpiN]

why can't they both be kill moves? Lots of characters have more than one kill move so why does Sonic only get one?

Reread what I'm saying. I want the Nair KB to be on frame 6, not 46.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Considering the normal Nair is 6-46 frames of hitbox I would rather use Bair if I had to wait till the 40's to get my kill move. <_<

Point made.

Out of curiosity though, is there any frame data that tells when each hitbox comes out/disappears? At last checking, I could only find out when the first hitbox came out and the last ended.

 

[yami_sora]

Do you think that would be reasonable to do?

 

[iSpiN]

Do you think that would be reasonable to do?

Considering how I'm giving my opponent half a second to see my attack coming? Then yes.

I don't think we have frame data for the 3 different hitboxes.

 

[yami_sora]

Alright, well I really liked your list of changes from a few pages ago, but is the nair the first thing you're gonna try to implement?

 

[iSpiN]

No, we need to do something about:

- 10-15% Larger Hitbox for Spin Charge
- (-)2-4 frames of Bair
- Make Uair less easy to DI out of.

Those are the top 3 things we need to consider pushing to the BR before the Nair.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Hmm. The lack of a debug menu in Brawl is really beginning to irritate me. >_>

EDIT:
Hm. Not a bad changelist there. I'll cosign to that.

 

[yami_sora]

Alright, well I don't have any weight around here obviously so who's the representative?

 

[Chis]

Random question ispin, is there a hack to change the colour of Sonic blue after images?

 

[GHNeko]

Dark_Sonic is prob the representitive as he's in the B+ Backroom.

 

[iSpiN]

Random question ispin, is there a hack to change the colour of Sonic blue after images?

What images are you referring to? If you are referring anything about textures/motions effects then you should probably ask BlazingKatakiri.

Alright, well I don't have any weight around here obviously so who's the representative?

this

Dark_Sonic is prob the representitive as he's in the B+ Backroom.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm not sure a Doc Nair would be best for Sonic. If the killing hitbox came out first it would be easier to techchase with. At least, depending on how much the move will really scale per hitbox.

Also, the comboing hitbox doesn't have to send straight up, but could plop them for a combo opportunity.

 

[iSpiN]

I'm against the Doc changes.

Edit: If we ever consider doing a Shadow we should note the Doc Nair. But lets not get sidetracked on a Shadow for B+.

 

[yami_sora]

I just use the Shadow skin for Sonic and that's good enough for me.

 

[iSpiN]

shanus seemed okay with the 3 buffs I mentioned

- 10-15% Larger Hitbox for Spin Charge
- (-)4 frames of start up ofBair
- Make Uair less easy to DI out of.

Yes, Bair will be 9 frames if the rest of the back room agrees. We haven't figured a way to code Uair. And we haven't thought of a final % how much larger Down B should be. I'm only assuming 10-15% will be an okay number since we don't have a lot of graphic to use and it should be enough to cover Sonic better. Thoughts?

 

[yami_sora]

Sounds good to me, but I do hope there's a way to make the uair more difficult to DI out of.

 

[iSpiN]

I'm sure there is, but we need to think about Sonic's momentum as well.

Also, I talked to Tenki about the Spring idea, he says its a very bad idea. He mentioned something about Snake's Dsmash...

 

[Dark Sonic]

So I was thinking, why don't we make Sonic's B moves even more fun. You know how when you try to turn around during an SDR you have 10 million years of lag and no hitbox? Well, we should put some kinda cancel there! At first I thought of making it shield cancel, but then I thought of an even BETTER idea!

What about allowing that turn around animation to cancel into only B moves? This allows him to side B pretty much during the middle of his SDR (turn around SDR->b-reverse side B). And what does side B cancel into? Well a lot of things lol. This is basically shield canceling (with a little more startup lag) + a couple more options like using side B's invincibility all of a sudden, or doing another down B in the opposite direction (and essentially refreshing your down B charge lol). Coupled with the hitbox increase this will make for a very useful cancel to a somewhat useful move.

Can you say MINDGAMES?!?!

 

[iSpiN]

So I was thinking, why don't we make Sonic's B moves even more fun. You know how when you try to turn around during an SDR you have 10 million years of lag and no hitbox? Well, we should put some kinda cancel there! At first I thought of making it shield cancel, but then I thought of an even BETTER idea!

What about allowing that turn around animation to cancel into only B moves? This allows him to side B pretty much during the middle of his SDR (turn around SDR->b-reverse side B). And what does side B cancel into? Well a lot of things lol. This is basically shield canceling (with a little more startup lag) + a couple more options like using side B's invincibility all of a sudden, or doing another down B in the opposite direction (and essentially refreshing your down B charge lol). Coupled with the hitbox increase this will make for a very useful cancel to a somewhat useful move.

Can you say MINDGAMES?!?!

Sounds cool, but is it possible to code such a thing? I like where your head is at, but can we do this?

 

[Dark Sonic]

He mentioned something about Snake's Dsmash...

What about it?

 

[iSpiN]

What about it?

I don't know, I think he went AFK after that, I'll ask him next chance I get.

Edit: What do you call this tech you are thinking of?

 

[Dark Sonic]

I call it.

BLUE BALL CANCELLING.

In honor of Esam who gave me that idea when I first played against him as Sonic.

"wtf is with all this blueballcanceling ****." (response to ASC shield cancel->grab, spinshoting from a side B I've been charging forever, ect, ect)

 

[DarkDragoon]

Lol I got mindgamed into coming here.
-DD

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^No...I like blueballcancel because when you abreviate it you get BBC (which is a very fluent motion for your mouth, as opposed to SC which is more of a hassle to say, and can be confused with "shield cancel").

"So after his ASC I thought he was gonna SC to avoid my fair, but instead he went straight into his SDR and BBC'd his turnaround into a b-reversed SD which he SC'd to PS my attack and shield grabbed me."

SO MANY ACCRONYMS!

 

[yami_sora]

That sounds like a terrific idea! It's so funny I was playing earlier tonight with some friends and I was Sonic and I actually said out loud "Boy Sonic good thing you take forever to turn around!" and then boom your idea totally makes a solution to that problem. If such a thing is possible to code, I'm allll for it. Sonic desperately needs some ground game help.

 

[iSpiN]

Woops, double post.

 

[iSpiN]

Okay, for the sake of organization AGAIN I will post a new more highly refined list for this discussion. I have added links to posts regarding to these topics and will be updated when a post is important enough for the discussion. I kinda rushed a few of the links and some of them just didn't need links for discussion.


Okay, guess I'll bust out my colors for this one.

Decided Ratio, Working Ratio, No Agreement Made, Died

Coded
-Bair [goodoldganon]
(-4) frames of Bair on startup.
2F098064 3F800000
2F008064 3FA66666

-Down B [iSpiN][[Team Giza]
Larger Hitbox
Initial hop(1.25x)
2F053646 0004611E
05364600 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Spindash Roll (1.25x)
2F072E32 0004611E
072E3200 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

ASC [first hitbox] (1.25x)
2F044641 0004611E
04464100 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

ASC [multihits] (1.25x)
2F0A4646 0004611E
0A464600 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

spindash jump (2x)
2F07493C 00169122
07493C00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 40000000

Side B charge jump (1.5x)
2F07493C 00169122
07493C00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FC00000



Ready to be Coded
-Spring
Make it last 45 Seconds



Things that still need more work.
-BBC (Blue Ball Canceling)(working title) [Dark Sonic]
New Tech

-Usmash [Dark Sonic][GHNeko][Blank Mauser]
Tech Chasing Usmash Spike (Yet to be decided of the properties.

-Nair [CCL][Tatsuman][GHNeko]
More KB and Damage/Less Landing Lag (Currently 7)

-Uair [GHNeko][Blank Mauser]
Make it less DIable (May or May not be possible to code.)

-Dair
Increase BKB (More Shieldstun)

-Homing Attack[Team Giza]
A lot less Ending Lag
2F0081D4 40C00000



Things We Won't Add
-Fair
Less landing frames (Pikachu Fair)

-Fair
Less KnockBack (so it can combo)

-Utilt
Make it spike.

-Down B/Side B
Increased Momentum

-Dtilt
Less End Lag, specifically for floaties.

-Ftilt
More KB or something

-Down B
Increased KB (Rollout Spin Charge)



Ideas that will NEVER happen
-Nair
Giving it invincible frames

-Homing Attack
Simple, make the HA spike.

-Dair
Simple, make it spike.

-Down B/Side B
Create a hitbox surrounding Sonic as he charges.

-Homing Attack
Make it more accurate.



This will give us more of an idea of what we are discussing, what needs to be discussed, and what we have already covered. Its basically a checklist/a resource all at the same time. If I'm missing something just tell me.

Frame Data for the Back Room:
-Bair
OLD FRAME DATA
Hitbox comes out on: 13
Duration: 13-16
Ends:Frame: 37

NEW FRAME DATA
Hitbox comes out on: 9
Duration: 9-12
Ends Frame: 33



Cosmetics
-Sparkle Sparkle Homing Attack
2F0081D0 40600000

 

[crazycrackers]

nice list I guess -4 frames on bair is appropriate

 

[yami_sora]

That's a great list. I'll just go down the list and say my thoughts on each topic. People can follow the format if they want and feel free to agree or disagree with me.

Things looked @ by shanus

down B:
-10-15% larger hit box
I am in agreement with this idea.

Bair
(-4) frames of Bair
Sounds good to me too.

Uair
Make it less DIable
Exactly what I want as well

Things that still need more work.

BBC (Blue Ball Cancelling)(working title)
New Tech
I love Dark Sonic's idea and if this is possible I'd love to see it added. Also, the name is perfect as it is.

Nair
Something for it.
Well, as I said I feel increasing the hitbox and making it a kill move would benefit Sonic, some sex kick discussion was had, and I think having it as a regular sex kick over a Dr. Mario sex kick would probably work best.

Usmash
Usmash Spike, Kill move or Techchaser
I'd definitely like to see it as a spike the most but if that's not something that can be added then techchaser might work best considering that it would probably be easy to DI out of as a kill move.

Homing Attack
Something for it, Damage Buff?
Uh I really have no idea what to do with this one, a damage buff would be good, how about reducing the "miss lag" by cutting from some of the end frames?

Dtilt
Make it end faster, specifically for floaties.
That plan works for me.

Spring
Remove the timer.
Honestly I'm a little confused about this one, are you only going to remove the timer for a grounded spring? Like I said I'm sure I fully understand the applications of this one, so I don't really know if this is necessary or not.

Well those are just my humble opinions, but at least know you know where I stand on everything. Again, really good list.

 

[iSpiN]

I really don't think the Dtilt idea will be necessary.

 

[yami_sora]

Yeah I wouldn't be too broken up if it wasn't added, but I'll take whatever Sonic can get.