Sonic+ ~UPDATED OP 11/15/09~

[Sora Master2.0]

PSA threads are <-- away.

Why would we even fathom something like that for official Brawl+?

As game changing as it sounds, Sonic might need some new moves, though you being Neko, you would disagree. No hate, just saying maybe he could have some better moves. :/
I know PSA threads<---away but it was an idea. Oh well. Sorry to waste your time.

 

[GHNeko]

though you being Neko, you would disagree.

WOW. WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?!

I'm actually a pretty ****ing liberal person, and my recent conservative streak is nothing short of weird to me. I'd actually like to say I'm one of the WBR that comes up with a **** load of ideas.

This is what I mean in nightly builds of going to far and needing limits.

Why in the hell would Sonic need a new moves or a new moveset when we have to tools to make what he has work completely for him?

If we could make LINK'S MOVESET, which has been TRADITIONALLY BAD. Why can't we make Sonic's?

The only thing holding Sonic back right now is primarily code/PSA related things. That and Sonic mains really have a hard time agreeing what direction to take Sonic in.

Changing a character's moveset without valid reason is something we really, really shouldn't do.

 

[Blank Mauser]

The instant HA isn't too hard. It just involves skipping to the proper action. Its trajectory is still its weakness however. I'm thinking a spiking homing attack would be neat, though hitting with it will still be a pain. Landing it off-stage might still be pretty hard with its bad trajectory and priority, but it would definitely have its uses and will be decent/scary for recovery.

Anyways, I've been playing with some Sonic tweaks and heres what I've got done so far.

-Side-B Invincibility lasts 8 frames longer
This will make the move more lenient and pierce through more melee and projectile walls. Its still an easily punished move with pivot grabs catching its start-up, but used correctly there are some very practical situations this will come in use.

-Spin jump should have hitbox for first 6 frames. Hitbox size 1.25X
The spinjump hitbox used to only come out on frame 6. By this time, Sonic was basically at D3's height. There weren't very many uses for it before because his aerials were much better. I could probably still say the same but his spinjump comes out fairly fast and is an offensive escape option if you ever wish to use it that way.

-S3K Nair, invincibility for 4 frames
Hitbox was increased and he has invincibility for 4 frames. It currently has a graphic that I'm unsure whether it fits well or not. Its knockback and growth were tweaked with less KO power and to provide a few setups depending on the character and how you space it.

-Fair, Uair and Usmash are less SDI'able (6000)
Fair and Uair I think may be better off left SDI'able. At least that way, you can follow their DI and they can sort of go with the move if they're trying to survival DI. Otherwise, theres not much of a way to make them link much better as Sonic has too much momentum. They link just fine when he's slowed down or isn't doing rising fairs or something. Usmash being less SDI'able is to help with the next buff.

-Usmash Spikes at 275, should connect better
Starting hitboxes have less growth, and with the speedup (Which is too good without the spike and was MEANT to be added with the spike) will let him techchase afterwards.

-Fair angle 169 = 40
169 seems to be magic number that doesn't let certain moves lift people off the ground at low percents. This is just a small change so that Fair should lift people more often.

-Ftilt sweetspot (WIP)
I want to give Sonic an Ftilt sweetspot that kills about 30-40% later then Fsmash. This would give ftilt some use since as of now it comes out same frame as dtilt and dtilt has much better follow-ups. The sweetspot would be at the very tip of his ftilt and would reward you for making use of ftilts range over dtilts speed. It would be a great techchase KO and with it we could remove/tweak the Dsmash speedup(Which I intended to get rid of anyways since it kills only a little earlier then Fsmash with much faster start-up time) and substitute the KO power of his old nair with the S3K insta-shield invincibility. Not a bad compensation, and it rounds him out quite well imo.

The ftilt sweetspot im having trouble implementing because the hitbox refuses to show up. I'll probably be asking Thunderspam for help since i'm sort of baffled with it atm. Anyways, if anyone wants me to post the .pac file so you can give feedback just ask. I sort of missed the nightly ship.

EDIT: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=UOBCHFQP Uploaded the Sonic.pac for Thunderspam, so anyone else can try it if they want as well.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm probably picking up Sonic because of S3K Nair.

God I'm a such a fanboy.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Uh in that case, I want instant homing attack spike along with it's cancel ability (did I just make homing attack broken? I think so).

Side B invincibility-I don't know man. 14 frames of invincibility is a bit much, even for a move with all that startup.

Spinjump-about time this got fixed. What were the developers thinking?


S3&K nair sounds sexy.

multihit goodness-so now the moves actually link? Sonic approves

upsmash spike-It's back! YES YES YES!

Fair angle-not sure what this does really. If by lift them off the ground you mean prevent them from DIing down and teching...sure I guess?

F-tilt sweetspot-idk why but I'm still not feeling this move. I get the strangest feeling that it'll just become a campy kill move, rather than something you tech chase into (afterall, f-tilt is technically one of the hardest moves to dash cancel into anyway). We could try it anyway though. Might I suggest just lowering the angle and making the hitbox near the feet bigger, with a SMALL increase to BKB and KBG instead? idk I just think it would make a very odd kill move.

D-smash speed removal-well, that makes d-smash just as slow as f-smash again (alright, 1 frame faster <_<). I thought the d-smash speedup kinda made sense, I mean it LOOKS faster than f-smash. Maybe we should tried 10 frames or something, but without the speed boost I'd honestly chose f-smash over d-smash for tech chasing every time (it's safer in the case that I mistime it and their shield pops up).

 

[Blank Mauser]

Uh in that case, I want instant homing attack spike along with it's cancel ability (did I just make homing attack broken? I think so).

Side B invincibility-I don't know man. 14 frames of invincibility is a bit much, even for a move with all that startup.

Spinjump-about time this got fixed. What were the developers thinking?


S3&K nair sounds sexy.

multihit goodness-so now the moves actually link? Sonic approves

upsmash spike-It's back! YES YES YES!

Fair angle-not sure what this does really. If by lift them off the ground you mean prevent them from DIing down and teching...sure I guess?

F-tilt sweetspot-idk why but I'm still not feeling this move. I get the strangest feeling that it'll just become a campy kill move, rather than something you tech chase into (afterall, f-tilt is technically one of the hardest moves to dash cancel into anyway). We could try it anyway though. Might I suggest just lowering the angle and making the hitbox near the feet bigger, with a SMALL increase to BKB and KBG instead? idk I just think it would make a very odd kill move.

D-smash speed removal-well, that makes d-smash just as slow as f-smash again (alright, 1 frame faster <_<). I thought the d-smash speedup kinda made sense, I mean it LOOKS faster than f-smash. Maybe we should tried 10 frames or something, but without the speed boost I'd honestly chose f-smash over d-smash for tech chasing every time (it's safer in the case that I mistime it and their shield pops up).

Here are options I am considering regarding ftilt and Dsmash:

Option 1:
Dsmash keeps speedup, but receives lower KBG so it kills about 25% or more later then Fsmash. Ftilt sweetspot could kill maybe 40-50% later then Fsmash but send at a low angle for edgeguarding/gimping.

Option 2:
Slow Dsmash down a bit. Go with original Ftilt idea of killing about 30% after Fsmash. Could make it a slightly lower angle if we wanted.

Option 3:
Remove Dsmash speed-up but give it IASA frames rather early so he can sort of use it to move/place other attacks. Ftilt sweetspot kills 25% later then Fsmash?

I think if the Ftilt sweetspot was done right it wouldn't be so odd Dark_Sonic. We'll have to see how Thunderspam hooks it up.

 

[CountKaiser]

How many frames of hitlag does fair have? The weak hits, I mean.

And Blank, you made fair practically non-SDIable.

As for HA, who said it was a projectile? I can edit the hitbox on it just fine.

 

[Sora Master2.0]

WOW. WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?!

I'm actually a pretty ****ing liberal person, and my recent conservative streak is nothing short of weird to me. I'd actually like to say I'm one of the WBR that comes up with a **** load of ideas.

This is what I mean in nightly builds of going to far and needing limits.

Why in the hell would Sonic need a new moves or a new moveset when we have to tools to make what he has work completely for him?

If we could make LINK'S MOVESET, which has been TRADITIONALLY BAD. Why can't we make Sonic's?

The only thing holding Sonic back right now is primarily code/PSA related things. That and Sonic mains really have a hard time agreeing what direction to take Sonic in.

Changing a character's moveset without valid reason is something we really, really shouldn't do.

XD I said no hate, meaning your Neko. Your soopa cool. XD DOn't take it offensivley. I was saying your had a good point but I'm bad at saying what I mean I'm sorry. :[
My bad Neko. :[

 

[GHNeko]

Poor wording confuses and enrages me! GRRR.

 

[Sora Master2.0]

Poor wording confuses and enrages me! GRRR.

*bows*
My bad. :[

I'm sorry if I sounded like an ***. I just was thinking of some ways to make him better...which I realize now is the wrong thread. in the morning I'll experiment with some combo's and stuff I can find with Sonic. To help get him moving along.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Blank, I like option 1 the best. Option 3 is kind of interesting though. We'd have to be careful of what we let it IASA into though (free grab on block? not a good idea)

 

[GHNeko]

Blank, I like option 1 the best. Option 3 is kind of interesting though. We'd have to be careful of what we let it IASA into though (free grab on block? not a good idea)

lolpeach

10char

 

[yami_sora]

It's really great to see so much of your hard work put into this character and for that I am grateful and appreciate all of your effort. I was wondering though, what are some pretty good low % combos to use with Sonic that work on a good amount of the characters?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Blank, I like option 1 the best. Option 3 is kind of interesting though. We'd have to be careful of what we let it IASA into though (free grab on block? not a good idea)

My thoughts exactly on the three choices.

As for the Homing Attack, perhaps make it hit upwards (and make it cancel-able with jump and ALL specials), so that you can combo out of it? The instant HA might be a bit much, but I can't say for sure (especially since I haven't tested it), since the awkward angles of the attack could be a balancing factor since it prevents it from being spam-able. Speeding up the start-up animation would probably be better than making it instant, but no one has figured out how to do that, yet.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So here's what we're thinking about doing for HA.

Make homing attack instant (cut out the charge animation altogether, since that's the part that we can't seem to edit), and allow it to cancel into side B, down B, or jump on a clean hit (either hitting them or a wall). This means that technically you can do a second homing attack by jumping and then doing it, but you wouldn't be able to do a third one as you'd have no jump (probably won't hit anyway, HA's tracking system is terrible <_<). You could also up B (why would you?) or aerial (I'm thinking none of them would hit, but dair might be good for movement?) at the cost of your jump. Canceling into down B allows for cool spinshot followups in the air, or for ASC tricks when hitting a shield. Side B just for kicks (and more random shield mixups?) If it turns out to be OP, the cancel ability would be removed (keeping the HA instant) and if THAT is still OP...we get the slow *** homing attack again <_<.

A homing attack that is legitimately useful?! THIS IS MADNESS!

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I'm liking the idea, already. Hopefully, it'll become useful but not too good, since it would add a lot of mindgames to Sonic's game. (And homing attack to homing attack is what Sonic does in the 3D Sonic games, so it fits that attack pretty well.)

 

[zxeon]

Dark Sonic you don't need to explain things to me to get me to agree with you. Just ask. :V

I do like that idea. Any new options for Sonic is another opener for some of his more situational combos which he needs.

 

[shanus]

If someone can figure out the inputs fot side direction in Psa be my guest. I can determine downwards no problem, just not down and side.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Whoa too much stuff and changes to take in. I like most of the changes that are about to happen so far.

The only thing I disagree with is the Usmash spike. I've mentioned this before and I tested it when it was in before. It's gonna be teched and you WILL be punished, just like DThrow. Did you guys speed up the Usmash or something for this to come back? This isn't a good change unless I can't get punished for spiking someone with the new Usmash.

Let me understand your logic for changing Usmash to this. We all want the best for Sonic right?

S3&K Nair is beast .

EDIT: Seems like you did speed up Usmash according to the official site. Interesting, this might be a good change after all. My worry was that I wanted to take advantage of them being knocked down, not have it all backfire by my opponent teching and me not recovering in time.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Is it just me or does sonic's DACUS go a lot farther than it did in vbrawl, to the point of it being useful?

 

[shanus]

so, i now know how to let HA IASA into any B moves, success!?

 

[Dark Sonic]

so, i now know how to let HA IASA into any B moves, success!?

You are a god!

Now then...can you take out neutral B from the mix (no homing attack infinite chains please <_<) After that homing attack cancel is golden!

 

[zxeon]

That's what I call epic win

 

[shanus]

Didn't work quite as planned, still being a pain.

 

[Isatis]

For any Sonic+ mains out there, tell me what you do to approach and what you do OoS? Both, with Sonic+, seem more impossible than they were back in 4.0 or 4.1.

Yes...

Triangle.

 

[Dark Sonic]

For approaching, I typically run to right outside of my opponents range and go for some quick feignts. Dash dancing to bait moves, running in with a dash canceled jab/d-tilt, using DACUS against them if they like to jump a lot, and occasionally just spacing a bair lol. Sonic doesn't really have strong approach options, but I get by just fine by faking that I'm approaching and punishing their "counters" .

As for OoS, things get a little harder there. For characters with really strong shield pressure games (like Peach or Pit), there's not much you can do offensively. You could try shorthopping a uair, but really you just wanna get out of that situation (as much as I hate to say it, rolling is often your best option <_<). For weaker shield pressure games you might be able to get out by just shorthopping backwards. Then you can charge a side B while moving backwards, so you can tear through their attack if they try to follow you, or you can just shield cancel when you land if they don't move. When instant homing attack comes around, OoS homing attack will be a decent option too

 

[shanus]

Finally, Homing Attack special move IASA works perfectly

 

[Dark Sonic]

Finally, Homing Attack special move IASA works perfectly

So all that's left is to make it instant right (skipping the charge window)? Then Sonic will be golden (if anyone has objections, please speak up and support your case)

 

[CountKaiser]

So wait, without charge, Sonic would just charge at the opponent instantly?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yeah. It's still a very low priority move so it's not like he can use it to break combos or anything. And even with the cancel, the move wouldn't particularly shine (the cancel helps mostly when it is BLOCKED, rather than on hit ) Homing attack would become VERY GOOD yes, but I think it would still be far from broken.

As for justification for the buff, I feel Sonic may need it after hitstun gets reduced, as his combos are borderline already. He doesn't really benefit from the edge game changes (his on stage edgeguards STILL don't hit low enough to matter), and the spotdodge changes won't help him much either (his safe moves are already safe on dodge). Airdodge changes help him as much as they hurt him. Sure he can juggle better now and take advantage of his amazing uair, but he also GETS juggled better now due to his terrible priority below him.

Sonic excels at hitting his opponent from the most obscure angles (spinshotting over them and dairing at 75 degrees, coming in at 30 degrees with an aerial down B, coming from under characters with bair?) and instant homing attack would be a great tool to compliment this

/long post.

 

[GHNeko]

oh wow. SA2 HA and S3K Nair.

Good **** man.

 

[Dark Sonic]

oh wow. SA2 HA and S3K Nair.

Good **** man.

Canon moves ftw!

 

[Perfect Chaos]

So will the upcoming official 5.0 release have this instant and cancel-able Homing Attack? I sure hope so, since I don't think I can stand to wait another 3-5 months for it.
With a few months to test out a Sonic with this Homing Attack in competitive play, I may actually use Sonic more.

PS: And what about his n-air; which version will be in the official 5.0 release? S3&K-like version that was tested previously or the one we've had for some time now?

 

[Dai Tian]

Been a long time since I was here.

Sonic with an instant homing attack and a S3&K sytle Nair? My god... I'm almost salivating at the thought *Mao'd*

I haven't tested that out at all so I have to ask. Does the instant HA still travel in an arc towards the character's back or does it go straight for them?

 

[GHNeko]

It still aims at the back.

But who cares? S3K Nair. Now if only we can make it so that the inviciframes only show up if the player presses A during Nair.

<_<

 

[Dai Tian]

It still aims at the back.

But who cares? S3K Nair. Now if only we can make it so that the inviciframes only show up if the player presses A during Nair.

<_<

If only. Insta-shield strike the ****ers As much as I'd like for the HA to travel straight at them like it always did in the games it helps that it still only arcs towards their backs. You still have to space the move so that it can actually hit them so it helps balance it out. I'll have no problems using it that way haha.

 

[GHNeko]

If we could, we would of already. xd

And I'm pretty sure its possible for insta-shield through PSA. I mean look at Wisp. I'm sure its more than possible. :V

 

[Blank Mauser]

Sonic's new HA is instant, but by making it instant it loses its "homing' feature. This was true in the Shadow Pac floating around as well, where the HA aimed for the center of the stage and went huge distances. I would know since I got similar results my first time. It now goes in a set path, downwards and forward and stops at a short distance in front of Sonic.

Anyways, the current HA I've made combined with canceling may be too good. Honestly having both may be a dilemma if theres no way to punish it, yet making it unpunishable was the whole reason of making it cancelable. Though I think if it was made punishable upon block or telegraphed rebound then keeping the cancel for gimmicks would not be so bad. Thoughts?

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmm, the charge could be cancelled early right, and it would still home in. In that case, speed up the charge animation by 10x or so.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

The problem is that they haven't found a way to speed up the charge animation, yet.