Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Tenki]

Things I learned, kinda...

{1} Fox's nair goes through a lot. Fsmash is surprisingly good against Sonic...as it's mostly useless in Brawl.
{2} Fox's Dair is an impressive edgeguard against Sonic. I didn't use it enough, but it pushes him back down and repeat. : )
{3} Dsmash is really good

{4} And yeah, I know about the edgehogging thing. I do that alot, as it's a really pretty safe answer as Fox.. generally a decent idea. Not so much against Sonic, but I really just needed to use those matches as "what can I do against this" matches.

{1} N-air, yes. FF N-airs should be able to break alot of non-shield, non-hyphensmash approaches. F-smash... it's punishable on shield. I played against another Fox earlier and we had better connection. His F-smashes always led to grabs from my end.

{2} Maybe on the d-air. I won't deny its pushing power - it's almost as good as Kirby's on/off the edge. I'm not sure about Dark Sonic's recovery options, but Sonic as a character should be able to control his spacing so he can airdodge and literally do a lagless landing into shield near the edge.

{3} Yes

{4} lol also, shine off-stage, especially if you're above Sonic... just won't work too well. You tried to do it and I used invincibility frames to get through you .

 

[Napilopez]

I think your secton in the combo vid should feature like a 15 second clip with only retreating fsmashes haha. And play like the chicken dance song or something.

Fun thing to do against linea character movement attacks like fox and ike's side B is just run in the direction theyre flying, screech stop, then Dsmash =P I sonic isnt as fast as illusion for the same distance, but

Question, how long does it take for Sonic to escape fox's utilt lock with proper DI/SDI and spring? I know spring isn't immediately invincible, so its not an instant escape. t I've been hurt pretty bad by those, so I'm wondering.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^My recovery was kind of messy on Wi-fi, and I was still kind of experimenting to see what aerials could beat Fox's dair to try to take advantage of the situation (kinda backfired huh.)

The shine thing worked against me a couple times because I was trying to see if I could get through it with my uair (bad idea). I guess I should just play it safer when recovering in general (though I really do love turning edgeguards around.)

Also, the reason that I was doing so well on battlefield was because I started using upsmash and uptilt a lot to beat Fox's aerials (I haven't gotten the chance to test up tilt against Fox's nair though, only his dair.) Fenrir just kept getting stuck above me and had a hard time getting down. On the flipside I found it pretty easy to get down by faking him out with ASCs (lol, that only works online though), or just airdodging back down, or running off the platform and bairing.

edit:I got out of Fox's up tilt combos fairly quickly with springing, so either Fenrir wasn't buffering the up tilts, or Sonic just doesn't get combo'd by them past like...30%

Also, I definetely did not use F-tilt enough, It's something that I've been trying to encorporate into my playstyle though. I just couldn't space it that well when I tried online (though in this one match on Lylat Cruise it seemed like F-tilt alone completely shut down Fox, if you space it right).

 

[Tenki]

I think with no lag, if you SDI up and spam up-B you should be able to get out in 1-3 of them, starting from 0-10%. Even if spring isn't insta-escape, I think the 'spawning' animation moves you upwards regardless. Or maybe that was for grounded spring.

I also noticed that his U-tilt is horribly disjointed OVERALL.

I thought the front of Fox was deceptive, but when I tried to get him from behind, I got hit waaay before I entered his graphics D;



I also forgot to mention a few really interesting things I noticed.

- D-tilt (inside leg range) is +effective on Fox, with his fastfall speed.
- Fox's DI, at least, vertically, is REALLY strong for some reason. I'd nail a F-smash on him and it would launch him very steeply upwards. Definitely was different from Marth.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Thanks for the matches Fenrir, you really helped us out.

We should fight some other Foxes to accout for differences in playstyle don't you think? (I'll save that for another day).

Hey Fenrir, do you go to UCF? If you do, I could stop there on Friday after school and play for a bit (before leaving for Missouri!. I really think we need some in person experience before we can really conclude anythin on this matchup (since both characters rely heavily on punishing and Wi-Fi kinda ruins that).

 

[Napilopez]

I think with no lag, if you SDI up and spam up-B you should be able to get out in 1-3 of them, starting from 0-10%. Even if spring isn't insta-escape, I think the 'spawning' animation moves you upwards regardless. Or maybe that was for grounded spring.

I also noticed that his U-tilt is horribly disjointed OVERALL.

I thought the front of Fox was deceptive, but when I tried to get him from behind, I got hit waaay before I entered his graphics D;



I also forgot to mention a few really interesting things I noticed.

- D-tilt (inside leg range) is +effective on Fox, with his fastfall speed.
- Fox's DI, at least, vertically, is REALLY strong for some reason. I'd nail a F-smash on him and it would launch him very steeply upwards. Definitely was different from Marth.

Oh okai thanks.

utilt is uber disjointed D: Sonic's is quite disjointed, but fox's is just a pain.

Yea, double dtilts + 2 jabs + grab is really a nice little string to pull off at the beginning of a stock against fox =P



Did I mention already in this thread how useful(and fun) it is to chain bthrows(Boxobs idea) against fox? Seriously, try it at the beginning/near the beginning of a stock against heavy weights/fast fallers, and lol, fox. Given that they dont DI up(which is not very common seeing as they usually expect Uthrows from Sonic if they DI at all), you could get in a nice amount of damage in(I chained 3 of them on an unexpecting fox last week), and if they do DI upwards, well, Sonic can punish that pretty well. Try it out, it doesn't have any major effect on the match-up, but its really quite nifty.


As usual, I go off on slight tangents. I just thought I should bring up one asset about Sonic's speed and tech chasing with Bthrow and Dthrow. One thing I noticed is that often after these throws, if sonic starts going for the tech chase, the camera actually has a bit of trouble keeping up, and it can be quite hard for the players eyes to really pay attention to/notice where Sonic is, which Is one of the reasons I believe tech-chasing is so effecient with Sonic.

Also, phillycheesesteak.

 

[Browny]

sonics utilt can beat a DK dair, shouldnt it also beat a fox dair? i cant go on brawl atm to check but it would make sense. its probably a risky move since getting hit by fox's dair is never good but ive had success with utilt stopping even the turtle, so it might be good here...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Did I mention already in this thread how useful(and fun) it is to chain bthrows(Boxobs idea) against fox? Seriously, try it at the beginning/near the beginning of a stock against heavy weights/fast fallers, and lol, fox. Given that they dont DI up(which is not very common seeing as they usually expect Uthrows from Sonic if they DI at all), you could get in a nice amount of damage in(I chained 3 of them on an unexpecting fox last week), and if they do DI upwards, well, Sonic can punish that pretty well. Try it out, it doesn't have any major effect on the match-up, but its really quite nifty.

I did three of those against a DDD.

Then I was like. DUDE EPIC!
So I spent the next couple of matches working on it.

By the end of the day my record was 10 Bthrows on one DDD.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Thanks for the matches Fenrir, you really helped us out.

We should fight some other Foxes to accout for differences in playstyle don't you think? (I'll save that for another day).

Hey Fenrir, do you go to UCF? If you do, I could stop there on Friday after school and play for a bit (before leaving for Missouri!. I really think we need some in person experience before we can really conclude anythin on this matchup (since both characters rely heavily on punishing and Wi-Fi kinda ruins that).

No problems, Gabe. I'm always up for learning sessions via laggy wifi xD.

And I guess so....the problem that you run into is that there aren't all that many good Foxes out there... I know of a few, but yeah....

I do go to UCF, yeah...I live about 5 minutes from it. Why are you going to MO again? lol

But yeah, Friday could definitely work for me. I'm usually busy, but this one is kinda opening up. I work until about 5-6 and then I'm back home. Give me a call tomorrow anytime.. 863.602.0079 and I'll see if I am going to be free.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^****, it just so happens that I'm leaving at 5:00 tommorow.

Whatever, I'm free pretty much every friday afternoon, and I can just hop on a bus to UCF from Valencia (my friend Russel lives there too, so I'll have a ride back.)

And yeah, I guess Sonic and Fox are just odd characters that a lot of n00bs are attracted to. Can you recomend any other good Foxes that wouldn't mind playing over Wi-fi? Not that I don't like fighting you, but I want to see different playstyles and all, (maybe a more ground based Fox?) and see what playstyles are most effective on both sides.


Anyway, as far as the matchup goes, I strongly encourage the use of u-tilt to halt aerial approaches, and using uair and upsmash (yes, I said up smash) to keep him above you to rack up damage. It seems to be the safest way to rack damage, and you really can't afford to be taking that many risks with Fox's punishing game.

As far as edgeguarding goes I'm pretty stumped. The only thing I could think of is spacing bairs to beat his fair as he's rising. If you knocked him out far enough he'll have to use side B to recover, which is only moderately dificult to edgeguard, but just gimping Fox seems pretty hard unless the Fox player messes up.

With neither character being able to gimp each other effectively, and edgeguarding being a painful task, this matchup is going to be a long one. Fox's punishing is more severe than Sonic's, but luckily I think racking damage with uairs and uptilts (while time consuming), is safe enough to even it out. But in terms of killing each other, Fox not only has more killing power, but has easier setups for killing (until we learn to SDI the dair on reaction of course), and his upsmash is fast enough and has enough range to simply be used as a punisher, rather than having to mindgame the opponent into getting hit by it.

If it weren't for Fox's killing advantage, I'd call the matchup even or even Sonic's favor because Sonic has a few safe methods of racking damage and keeping Fox in the air. But with it, I'd say 55:45-60:40 Fox's favor (of course I still want to experiment some more before making this my final conclusion).

 

[Chis]

Sorry, nothing to contribute to the Sonic Vs Fox thing.

However I don't thing this thread is detailed enough. Like how to beat the said character, there strenghs, weakness, there most effective tatic's. Like a how to beat them guide. A bit like this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192160

If there is already a thread like this, warn me quickly before I create it.

Yeah...1,000th post...

 

[ROOOOY!]

The stickied match-up thread was really detailed actually.

This one was to start with, but it's gone all gay now that Greenstreet's gone and the formats not being followed.

 

[aeghrur]

The stickied match-up thread was really detailed actually.

This one was to start with, but it's gone all gay now that Greenstreet's gone and the formats not being followed.

I know. I miss Greenstreet.

 

[Tenki]

You can still find him in the Luigi boards.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Gah. I don't know what to do now.

We have a few options :

- We carry on using this one despite it's lack of structure.
- We revert back to the old, stickied one and resume talks in there.
- We make a completely new one, after discussing the structure before hand.

I'd go against #2. I don't think it'll be updated often enough because BT isn't around much.
I'd be okay with the first or last option. If we choose the last option, can someone who will continually update it and that they know they have no future obligations to stop them updating the thread please make it? I'd do it, but there are better qualified people out there, I'm sure ._.

 

[Jim Morrison]

id go for 3

 

[da K.I.D.]

id go for number 3 as well.

also i have info

last night i played a bunch of games with the best fox in my area, (Xiivi on SWF if you were wondering) and since he started picking up sonic, and i started playing fox, we did the match both ways with oddly, almost the exact same result:
fox wins with 2 stock left at mid/high damage (70-90)
despite the fact that sonic is good at gimping in this game, it doesnt change the fact that gimping overall is harder to do in this game, and as such, is not as big a factor as it was in melee.
fox however, focuses on stringing hits together and setting up for kills which down, neutral and forward air do very well. and that is much more important in this game. sonic has combos as well, but they are much more inconsistent and never garanteed. take that, and than add the fact that fox (just like every other character) has more killing power than sonic. and you have a match that is in fox's favor.
im guessing 60-40 for this one

also should i be voted for it, i will take up the reigns of upholding a sonic matchup thread

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'd be fine with a 40-60, though I kinda disagree with it.

Uhh, if we wanna throw some names out there to make a new thread, I'd do it I guess. I don't have any engagements that would overtake the running of the thread in the future that I'm aware of, so yeah.

I'd take the info from this thread and put it in a new one.
How would people want that thread to be run? Same as we have now, or different? Make suggestions people.

 

[SonicX580]

My view on the fireballs isn't as bad as all the Marios make it out to be. They are slow moving, arced projectiles... and the give mario a bit of lag as well. i always found it entriely possible to run underneath a jumping fireballing approaching mario. And from underneath there are alot of options. And as mario is the same weight as Sonic, it isn't hard to get an unexpected star ko from an uair at close to high percentages.
I would like to focus on some advantages I think Sonic has as well:

1. Grab game: Both of the characters have fairly short grab range, but Sonic speed can help him put his to better use. Dthrow into other approaches at low percentages works well most of the time on a Mario IMO.
2. Recovery: Sonics recovery is a lot better than Marios, not much to elaborate on that point. In situations where a Mario will die, a Sonic can easily make it back. The angle on Marios recovery can also ruin him in levels with a lip. Other than this, it does not cover that much distance, but does generally stop a gimp.
3. Speed: This is a given. Duh, its Sonic. But i'll say it anyway. Sonics speed allows him to manuevre around the map easier and gives Mario less and less time to think and can slow down the game if we need it to.
4. Variety: Things like Spindash/charge combos (to HA/ fair/ uair/ d-jump spring dair) can really throw mario off (not much elaboration i'm sorry)

These are only little things that take back a bit of ground in this matchup for Sonic

Also for recommended stages i suggest Luigi's mansion will give Sonic an advantage: it'll remove that fantastic aerial game of that italian and helps us survive more and more punishment where we can use the dthrow to get him out of the house at hi percents.

will come edit this soon: doing some testing on marios priority

P.S. Here is a match fairly supportive of a nuetral conclusion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH2qF95XaMY

I agree with you GreenStreet about Sonic's advantages good post.

 

[Napilopez]

I agree with you GreenStreet about Sonic's advantages good post.

Kinda really late there bud. No offense =P

 

[SonicX580]

Really my bad I haven't been here for a while.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Yet another attempt at boosting one's post count.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yet another attempt at boosting one's post count.

huh?...
what now?
sorry, i was staring at ****...

 

[Greenstreet]

This is officially undergoing its revamp. I am taking over the reigns again and just dealing with the busyness.

There are gonna be posts of Kirby not on the top of a page. I hope people can deal with that. But as long as the link at the front is fine we should be good.

 

[Greenstreet]

KIRBY - Character Matchup 7

Introduction
Kirby had been confirmed for Super Smash Bros. Brawl since the first preview shown at E3 in May 2006. Of all the characters shown, Kirby appears to be almost completely unchanged graphically. It was speculated that Kirby's up smash may be stronger, his attacks seem to be quicker in general, and he is apparently somewhat heavier than before.

He ranks 14th on the Tier List-- which is significantly higher than his rank of 25th in Melee, above only Pichu--, thanks to his overall solid matchups, a good combo ability, and being a solid character choice all around. Being near-even with Meta Knight has helped his rankings.

His Final Smash is Cook Kirby, which is reminiscent of the Cook ability seen in various Kirby games. In the games, Cook Kirby clashes his utensils, tosses opponents into a pot, seasons them, stirs, and finally, items pop out of the pot.


Behaviour:

Final Cutter won't be so useful on-stage, since Sonic's speed allows him to run up, powershield the wave, and punish Kirby's horrible ending lag. Hammer? Well, it's situational, but it has decent range, and since sonic has no disjointed hitboxes (that I know of) a well-spaced hammer can be great.

Pro1: Actually, Kirby's B-air (back aerial) is really good for controlling spacing, or beating you out of your moves.
Pro2: way... wrong. Kirby's Forward Smash is frighteningly strong.
Tenki
Commonly Used Moves:

Starshot: It's possible to break out of this almost ASAP by doing an attack, or hitting jump. On an interesting note, from fighting a certain Dedede player, it might not always be to your advantage to break out of it ASAP.

Hammer: It's notable that aerial hammer has two swings. I've been caught by that when I was less familiar with this matchup. I'm not sure what extent it hits above or below it though.

Low% chaingrabs: I've fought a few Kirby mains online as well, and it doesn't seem like the low% chaingrabs are escapable by any moves. I'm not sure if it's possible to SDI the U-air/D-tilt to an extent that makes a difference though.

(wop) B-air: Susceptible to attacks from above (?), or just landcamping, probably.

-fsmash will kill you faster than you can say "I'm too cheap!"

-dsmash: is also good, though not used as often. I'm not positive exactly, but I think dsmash sends you flying vertically when Kirby's body is touching you, and horizontally when the edge of his foot touches you.

How to Win:



Recommended Stages:



Matchup Summary:

 

[Greenstreet]

woxy got moved </edit>

 

[Greenstreet]

I might need help gathering all the relevant info. So feel free to quote the stuff you guys found important for both kirby and fox at this point and I'll throw it in. Also. I would like the above kirby section to go on a top of a page as well as the fox. so there is a page back a few where kirbs technically started and it had nape at the top... can i get u nape (once ppl have given me the info i need) to put it up the top in ur post pls?

 

[SonicX580]

I've battled Fox last night by random and I think close-combat is good for defeating fox due to his laser attack and use grabs to get him off guard then use spin dash combos use f-smash and d-smash but don't use it to often and I think Final destination is a good stage no platforms or no dissruption.

 

[~TBS~]

I've battled Fox last night by random and I think close-combat is good for defeating fox due to his laser attack and use grabs to get him off guard then use spin dash combos use f-smash and d-smash but don't use it to often and I think Final destination is a good stage no platforms or no dissruption.

just make sure the horrible usmash doesnt hits when you have a high percentage.

 

[SonicX580]

just make sure the horrible usmash doesnt hits when you have a high percentage.

Yeah that could be a real pain.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it needs confirming but on the neutral stages, uup smash kills sonic fresh at 102%

 

[ROOOOY!]

Heyy, Greenstreets back for a bit <3.
Yeah, I dunno if you'd noticed, but on front page I've kept stuff updated (post #3)

Have we had any solid reasons as to why Fox has the advantage yet?
I still think it's neutral.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Hey, if MK's banned, then wouldn't sonic get higher on the list due to his most frequent and hardest counter dissipating?

And, will you guys do a Matchup with MK? As for fox, Sonic has more speed then him, but Fox has more attack speed, watch out for the shine, and Dair to Dsmash or Dair to Usmash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

id go for number 3 as well.

also i have info

last night i played a bunch of games with the best fox in my area, (Xiivi on SWF if you were wondering) and since he started picking up sonic, and i started playing fox, we did the match both ways with oddly, almost the exact same result:
fox wins with 2 stock left at mid/high damage (70-90)
despite the fact that sonic is good at gimping in this game, it doesnt change the fact that gimping overall is harder to do in this game, and as such, is not as big a factor as it was in melee.
fox however, focuses on stringing hits together and setting up for kills which down, neutral and forward air do very well. and that is much more important in this game. sonic has combos as well, but they are much more inconsistent and never garanteed. take that, and than add the fact that fox (just like every other character) has more killing power than sonic. and you have a match that is in fox's favor.
im guessing 60-40 for this one

this is important but its more in depth, and you should get the basics and specific moves about the match down first
important moves for fox:
dair-used to punish lag and sets up for combos. combos into jab which can combo into grab after one jab and up tilt at 0%. down smash at 70% and up smash at 100%
neutral air-his best stand alone approach.
up smash- kills 20% earlier than any of his other moves
blaster-unstales kill moves

sonic
f-tilt-out ranges fox
d-tilt-combos fox, as he is a fast faller
throws-see down tilt
back air and forward smash-they are our best moves

 

[ROOOOY!]

Hey, if MK's banned, then wouldn't sonic get higher on the list due to his most frequent and hardest counter dissipating?

And, will you guys do a Matchup with MK? As for fox, Sonic has more speed then him, but Fox has more attack speed, watch out for the shine, and Dair to Dsmash or Dair to Usmash.

Mah boi, check the stickies, seriously.
The match-up thread already has specifics on the first post there.

 

[aeghrur]

So, what's the agreed percentage on this? I'd say 55-45 because of Fox's better comboing abilities and his U-smash killing easier than Sonic unless Sonic gimps. =/ Maybe 60-40 too though. =O

 

[Jim Morrison]

Character Behaviour- Fox isnt gonna super-spam his laser, it has no knockback and sonic takes about 3 damages before getting to Fox. Fox will be semi-offensive.

Commonly Used Moves- Fox loooooves SH d-air. Also his up-tilt is nice for racking in damage. His sex kick will also bring trouble cause it's kinda hard to get around (just dodge). Also his C-stick is prented into his mind when you are 100%+.

How to Win- Fox usually relies on speed. Luckily, we're Sonic. We got more speed (and steak, but let's forget it for now). A lot more speed. Fox has a better recovery than Falco, so best wat to kill him is GIMPING. Or Sonic punch at high levels.

Recommended Stages- Fox get's stuck on FD. Also his camping is BAD there, cause Sonic runs over to him in a second (2 damage for Sonic!). It's also nice for stage spiking. Smashville could work, but less. Do NOT go to Battlefield cause of the platforms and Fox's superior airgame.

Can't decide score, so 50-50
Hope this helped

 

[aeghrur]

Character Behaviour- Fox isnt gonna super-spam his laser, it has no knockback and sonic takes about 3 damages before getting to Fox. Fox will be semi-offensive.

Commonly Used Moves- Fox loooooves SH d-air. Also his up-tilt is nice for racking in damage. His sex kick will also bring trouble cause it's kinda hard to get around (just dodge). Also his C-stick is prented into his mind when you are 100%+.

How to Win- Fox usually relies on speed. Luckily, we're Sonic. We got more speed (and steak, but let's forget it for now). A lot more speed. Fox has a better recovery than Falco, so best wat to kill him is GIMPING. Or Sonic punch at high levels.

Recommended Stages- Fox get's stuck on FD. Also his camping is BAD there, cause Sonic runs over to him in a second (2 damage for Sonic!). It's also nice for stage spiking. Smashville could work, but less. Do NOT go to Battlefield cause of the platforms and Fox's superior airgame.

Can't decide score, so 50-50
Hope this helped

Dang man, that helped a lot. Haha. :O
Nice post. If I had authority here, I'd say welcome to the sonic boards, but KID obviously has more power than me.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I appreciate it :D. Maining random + a few others learns you a loooot

 

[ROOOOY!]

GG Gf2tw.

Utilt's not great though against Sonic, springs are fun!
I prefer taking Fox to Lylat Cruise. Final Destination's cool though.