Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[da K.I.D.]

stop throwing out numbers, its dumb as hell and pointless...

Just talk about how sonic can beat what the other character has.

 

[ShadowLink84]

stop throwing out numbers, its dumb as hell and pointless...

Just talk about how sonic can beat what the other character has.

You can do that until your face is blue but you wouldn't be able to provide an accurate idea of how much you feel it affects the matchup.

My saying "disadvantged" may not fit yours.
THose numbers are supported by the arguments placed forward and thus, are reinforced and made valid.

Yes or vs Marth 60:40

I would dare say it would be close to even, primarily because Marth is so much weaker offensively than MK and Sonic has the tools to deal with his defense effectively.

Marth's improved aerial mobility over MK isnt enough to deal with Sonic's superior ground mobility. Have you ever airdodged through a Fair and Utilted Marth in the face? Its awesome.

 

[Camalange]

Marth is a horrible character.


Get over it, the MU isn't bad.

 

[Kataefi]

I know I've come here before but we'd appreciate if more sonic players contributed to this matchup thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250544

We're reviving the matchups threads over I'd definitely appreciate it if more people with experience would go over and say their piece.

 

[Umby]

Sonic vs Marth is definitely not as bad as 65:35. Definitely closer to 60:40 Marth. Get over it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ill say it again, why the fkn hell does it matter if the matchup is 60-40 or 80-20 marth if I dont know what the hell to actually do when a marth main picks up the controller next to mine?

youre going to lose to a ganondorf, or a jigglypuff or an ike or a pit or a rob or a ddd or a snake or an MK all the same if you dont know what to do when you fight one.

Dont learn the matchup ratio. learn the actual freaking matchup. i can guarantee that vex will destroy all but like 3 people in here. regardless of whether its 45-55 bowser or 70-30 sonic he will still beat you because hes good and knows how to play the matchup. im soooooo effing tired of this. the last page and a half has been people arguing about the numbers of random matchups with absolutely no discussion of how to play said matchups.

fix it. or dont bother posting here.

EDIT:
Here, Ill even start us off.
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=148089
how to fight wolf

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

EDIT:
Here, Ill even start us off.
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=148089
how to fight wolf

BluePeachy100?

 

[Browny]

THAT EXPLAINS A LOT

thx kid

 

[Kitamerby]

EDIT:
Here, Ill even start us off.
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=148089
how to fight wolf

Yo Ms. South Carolina, im really happy for you and imma let you finish, but da KID had the best screw up of all time. ALL TIME.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

EDIT:
Here, Ill even start us off.
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=148089
how to fight wolf

Use Falco...?

In all fairness, I did give reasons why I thought it was Bowsers favour. Just try get him in the air and keep him guessing and hit him

 

[infomon]

lol @ ppl thinking KID screwed up by linking to bluepeachy's profile
because i dun think they read KID's huge Visitor Message there explaining how Sonic should fight Wolf

unless I'm misreading this situation
lol @ all y'all

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

O.o Umm I don't see any visitor messages on that profile.

 

[infomon]

lolwut?
bluepeachy100's profile...... I click KID's link and this is the first message there:

ummmm. I dont know what specifically is giving you trouble so I guess Ill just go through a basic overview of how sonic wins the match...
1. Unless you can powershield it on command, dont attempt to shield grab the bair. and you probably shouldnt try it then either, because it is lagless and has mad range. and sonic has crap grab range.
2. learn to power shield the lazers. he has a lot of lag after he fires them, so its possible to run up and grab/dash attack him after he shoots if you are close enough. alternatively, you can spinshot over them and punish him.
3. if hes the type to try to shine as hes falling to get out of comboes, you can shield grab it.
4. DOWN TILT. work on down tilting successively and doing instant reverse down tilts, if you are good you can combo wolf from 0-about 45 and than into a grab from down tilt. most people arent fast enough to do that many reverse down tilts one after the other. so just down tilt him as much as possible to punish his moves, and when you dont think youll be able to down tilt again just grab. down tilts to 2 pummel up throw, can be around 35- 45% of free damage.
5. learn what the wolf likes to do out of down throw (its the only worth while throw wolf has) and avoid the followups. usually rolling backwards is the safest option when he down throws you.
6. Stop dying. wolfs usually start fishing for down smashes at about the 110-120 range. pay attention and learn to bait shield and punish the down smash. sometimes, if the wolf is bold he will down smash your attempt to punish his down smash. dont try to grab to punish the down smash. use down tilt if he is at low percents, or ASC/fair/ftilt/bair at high percents. note the ASC and bair will probably only work if the wolf likes down smashing multiple times in a row.
7. FSMASH! most good wolfs dont use f smash any more cus its kinda bad. ut if your wolf likes to f smash. a good way to get free damage is to stand right inside the edge of his f smash range. the wolf will probably say, he doesnt know i can hit him from here. and try to f smash you. but if you shield as soon as he starts the move. its a free shield grab/down tilt at low percents for you
8. GIMPS! Gimps are very important. as its usually necessary to gimp the wolf to win seeing as wolf clearly out classes sonic in killing power. theres 2 parts to edgeguarding wolf effectively.
a. get as far out from the stage as you can to force the wolf into making an error. standing at the ledge and doing an ISDJ is a good option here. your objective isnt necessarily to gimp him, but use long lasting moves like down air, fair, and nair to either kill him or make him airdodge. if the wolf is forced to airdodge, the battle should be almost over.
b. getting to the ledge before wolf. wolf is very reliant on the ledge for his recovery. so if you can get to the edge and outlast his recovery move with your ledge invincibility, wolf will probably die, this is why its important for you to make the wolf airdodge or shine before he attempts to get to the ledge, because wolf falls like a brick, airdodging will almost always put him below the stage and it wolf is below the stage. the ledge is pretty much his only survival option. so if you can force him to do something in phase 1, and than get to the ledge before him in phase 2, the stock should be over.
also note that i believe fair trades hits with his up b, and nair outright beats it, even the weak hit. bair beats it as well. also, the hits of his up b have essentially NO hitstun, so if you get caught in it, mash your fair or nair, and you might be able to hit him out of it while you are stuck in it.
that ended up being a lot longer than I thought. hope it helps

 

[Chis]

Well Kojin did say he would do the Bowser write up so I guess it's okay to move on to Wolf. That's a nice small essay on Wolf btw :O

 

[da K.I.D.]

thanks for explaining fizzie, I thought it was pretty clear but w/e as long as people can see it.

couple wolf tendancy things
some basic wolf comboes.
bair at mid percents (50-70) to DACUS
bair at low percents to grab
move i do a lot with wolf is SH fair, and during the fair get behind the guys shield and up smash so they eat 18% when they try to shield grab
kill combo on light characters (i dont know if sonic counts) is nair to down smash. works at about 100-120.
wolf is a character that relys a lot on spacing, so you have to do a lot of ruuning around to mess that up. try to get under him when he jumps, so that he cant space you with bair.
wolf has great spacing, stop trying to shield grab stupidly (i know my) wolf thrives off of people trying to shield grab dumb stuff. because its a free smash attack.
when i played jj wolf, he was really good at baiting me to attack him when he was near the edge and than jumping back and bairing me

i think thats the kind of stuff to know that is really important, 10 times more important than just having the knowledge that the matchup is even.

one more note, wolfs up smash is almost unpunishable, junk has like no lag, f smash is stupid laggy. and down smash is hard but able to punish.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I can't see it. =C

BluePeachy's

~Zack~

Maybe I got blocked or something. :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

Maybe cus ur he doesnt have you friended or something....

I dont really know why you cant see it. but fizzie c and p'd it so its w/e

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

I was gone for few days, and this crap happens? Sigh.... Since when are the numbers for charactermatch ups so important? I just want help with MK and Snake guys.

 

[~TBS~]

Sonic vs Marth is definitely not as bad as 65:35. Definitely closer to 60:40 Marth. Get over it.

Marth is a horrible character.


Get over it, the MU isn't bad.

Fight Neo pl0x. loljk, but Marth can be a problem due to personal experiences. I almost always end up fighting him. >.<

Nice write up KID, thanks. Nowadays, A wolf man in MD(Seagull) tries to pick BF and camp the platform. That doesnt work vs Sonic, doesnt it?

@KASR
uh...whats the problem with MK and Snake? o.O They camping too hard with nades and nados? Overpowered tilts? Superfast moves? And kind of elaboration can help us out with your problem.

@Terios
i cant see the profile message either. D:

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ill say it again, why the fkn hell does it matter if the matchup is 60-40 or 80-20 marth if I dont know what the hell to actually do when a marth main picks up the controller next to mine?

THat is something that is in regards to YOU as the player.
The point of the MU ratios are to determine how well a character does against another character based on their tools.
not based on the player.
To assume anything on the player means it has no relevance to the MU at all.

It assumes character tools and abilities, not the fact that your ******* keeps spindashing into an IC pivot grab. (not an insult to you I speak in general)

The fact that you walk in and start making such a TERRIBLE argument that does not even pertain to the point of MUR is only enugh to show your own ignorance.

MU's show CHARACTER capability.
Not the player.

If anything the discussion regarding the character's tools determine what you should and should not do.

It sounds as if you are raging without even knowing what you are raging about.


Edit: Btw kid Sonic is a medium weight character -_-. How are people not remembering these things?

 

[Chis]

I think Kid just wanted us to stop talking about numbers and actually discuss the match up...?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I think a large part of the ratio's is to give people an idea of how easy/hard the matchup is. Information IS more important but it works hand in hand with the ratio to give you an idea of whether or not your character is good IN that matchup. Knowing Wolf's combos for example is nice and a good thing to keep in mind but just knowing he can do that stuff doesn't necessarily let you know if you have the edge or not.

Also they're just useful in the case of Oh what's this matchup? 65-35.

That's all people really want. I don't want a dissertation on what moves outrange who's pivot grab if it's just a match I'm watching and not likely to partake in.


ANYWAY. Who the **** cares. Not the point of the thread...

post count +1

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think a large part of the ratio's is to give people an idea of how easy/hard the matchup is. Information IS more important but it works hand in hand with the ratio to give you an idea of whether or not your character is good IN that matchup. Knowing Wolf's combos for example is nice and a good thing to keep in mind but just knowing he can do that stuff doesn't necessarily let you know if you have the edge or not.

Also they're just useful in the case of Oh what's this matchup? 65-35.

That's all people really want. I don't want a dissertation on what moves outrange who's pivot grab if it's just a match I'm watching and not likely to partake in.


ANYWAY. Who the **** cares. Not the point of the thread...

post count +1

if a random no name sheik player fights ray kalm or phantom x's ganon and is told that its a 100-0 auto win matchup and doesnt know why, the ganon is going to **** them. just being given a number as an overview of the matchup is essentially meaningless.

It really shouldnt matter whether your character is good in the matchup or not, because if its your character and you learn the matchup youll be able to compete with that character no matter what.

knowing wolfs comboes isnt just "nice and a good thing to keep in mind" its imperitive to the matchup, because if you know what comboes the opponent is capable of you can avoid them, counter them, beat them, and have a better chance at winning the match because of it. if the statement was "one of ddds favorite comboes is down throw to down throw. it does a lot of damage and works at any percent." you arent going to just say oh thats nice. youre gonna say wow thats important, let me make sure i stay out of his grab range. becuase that will help you to beat ddd.

you just want matchup numbers to use it in arguments and such on the boards and crap. this is supposed to be a thread to help the people that actually play the game and go to tournaments and fight these characters.

 

[JayBee]

NinjaLink (Wolf) vs Kojin (Sonic)

Granted this is a while ago, but this is a good example of what happens when a good sonic does not know the wolf matchup against a good wolf player who does.

And it still was close. the thing i know now is that Wolf's lasers, while indeed are projectiles, are not as good as forcing unsafe approaches like other laser type moves can. Sonic, IMO can bait the majority of his mid range offence and respond well with combos and grabs. So for sonic, manuvering with sonic's speed to quickly punish wolfs lag is possible. I also feel that Sonic can run wolf around and force him offstage easier than any of the other space animals. The only problem I had was when I was close and stuck in my shield. Wolf is better being aggressive up close, but sonic can dart out to make this not so bad. given the stage, sonic's recovery also can make him last long even against wolf's powerful kill moves at high percents. Wolf would have to use a ton of Bair to safely space against your rush, and is faster than our bair. But, again, can be baited, tho its still safe IMO

I dunno. a few thoughts I guess. the matchup is pretty even regardless, IMO the "easiest" of the star fox characters to control. He's the most punishable, and can't rely on projectile spamming here. and his speed isn't comparable like Fox's. One last thought, the key for sonic is a lot of baiting and punishing tho. Down B wrecks a lot of followups if you dont pay attention.

 

[da K.I.D.]

when you hit 120% DI and SDI every attack up, really really hard. it will help you survive bair and down smash, AND you can make the knockback hit of f smash miss and punish him for hitting you with it.

Friendlies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKKM79vYTvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn_PahNorAw&feature=related

and this is me just experimenting with random stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA-QKw2Iskc&feature=related

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think Kid just wanted us to stop talking about numbers and actually discuss the match up...?

If you aren't having an actual matchup discussion and are tossing out words arbitrarily, then you shouldn't be trying to attempt a ratio.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Can't you powersheild the Bair and uptilt or something. I haven't played an amazing Wolf before so I dont know this match up. All the ones I play in tourney really arent the greatest. I played Atomsk on wifi and he decimated me. But thats Wifi.

The Bairs were shutting down my approaches really well..

I wonder how I get so far with this character without knowing the basic match up knowledge..:/

 

[Espy Rose]

I wonder how I get so far with this character without knowing the basic match up knowledge..:/

Because characters we don't play against a lot are often completely destroyed by characters we don't fair too bad against. Wolf gets molested by D3. ***** even. ***** in the *** without lube.

 

[Trent]

Because characters we don't play against a lot are often completely destroyed by characters we don't fair too bad against. Wolf gets molested by D3. ***** even. ***** in the *** without lube.

Like, are we talking Olimar vs Gannon without lube, or...?

Anyways, yeah I've lost to a Wolf before in a tournament match when I know I was better than them just because.. I didn't know what to do. He was being campy on Smashville and I just kept running into his lasers and Fsmashes like an idiot. Been practicing a bit against one though so if I ever fought him again I believe I'd win this time around. When I first ran into Wolf's FSmash, I was all "OMFGHAXORZ"

But uh.. His FSmash is REALLY easy to shield grab.. bait the crap out of it.

 

[Kinzer]

Can't you powersheild the Bair and uptilt or something. I haven't played an amazing Wolf before so I dont know this match up. All the ones I play in tourney really arent the greatest. I played Atomsk on wifi and he decimated me. But thats Wifi.

The Bairs were shutting down my approaches really well.

No Wolf worth their salt will let you punish their Bair with anything but MAYBE an iDA. For one, Wolf's Bair reaches far. Second his aerial acceleration allows him to retreat quite a ways, too far for anything with any Steak meat behind it.

The shield is your best friend in this MU. Better practice your powershielding for this MU. Work on your baiting as well. SDI Wolf's FSmash towards him and you should be out of the way for the second hit. Don't take any risks that get you right up in his face, his DSmash is just as good, if not better than MK's DSmash in every way save for range.

I wish I had more practice with Wolf. He's such a good matchup to help you work on your basics and teach you how to punish/defend better.

 

[Lokee]

Any of your guys want to help diccuss Sonic over at the Balanced Brawl thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246327&page=183

 

[Guilhe]

The Ike boards is currently discussing the Sonic matchup, all Sonic players are invited to join us. But first, please refer to the main matchup thread for information on our procedures and informative threads over Ike. I'll be adding links to threads with important information over Sonic there as well, if you wish to add links to threads you consider important for this matchup analysis, please post the links there.

Main matchup thread: [LINK]

Sonic matchup discussion thread: [LINK]

 

[JayBee]

Ive baited lasers before and timed my side b to go thru it with the invincy frames in matches, then hit them with it. but you know, that's me.

i put my two cents in on the thread guy.

 

[ShadoFiend]

I lost to a Peach my last tourney. F Wolf please and halp me or redirect me to where this Peach match up is?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Peach ****s us up. There's your discussion lol.

Just ask RD^3 in the chat.

 

[Chis]

Just put it at 55-45 or 60-40 Peach I don't know which it is you guys probably know better than I do

Peach is gay, Sonic is...well Sonic is awesome but still annoying to fight against. Getting past Peach's Floating crap will suck if she refuses to approach you and pulls off lagless rubbish on your sheild and pokes and jabs and stuff. Use Bair as Sonic but just be careful since Peach can hit you with her Fair if you miss or just chase you on the floor. Just punish her with Bair and stuff. Recover as best you can, Sonic's recovery is pretty screwy vs Peach anyway, you can die early if you're not careful

DI diagonally upwards against her stuff, she kills horizontally with Fair and the like. Chis is stupid and lives to about 190% if we're both playing well and even if he does mess up a bit he normally survives to around 160%, something stupid like that. Getting a hit on either side is really hard since their range his pretty even and I've found landing a kill move on Sonic is ridiculous since he moves so bloody fast but when coming down with my Fair on his sheild, provided I pull away a bit before and after the Fair comes out Sonic can't grab Peach but then Sonic can just roll away and run away and no one takes any damage and ARRGGGGGHHHHH

Turnips are silly, catch them if she's intent on spamming them, they're not fantastic vs Sonic anyway. I mean, they're Turnips so they're still really good but they lose their effectiveness when Sonic can run up and grab you, probably even if Peach does Turnip slide. If she has got a Turnip out watch her attack pattern and smack her or just wait until it's gone. Glide tossing can be used to punish Sonic's Bairs so be wary of that

If your Peach is silly or a risk taker, get ready to angle an F Smash up when she's recovering and coming towards you with a Fair, it'll probably smack her in the face before the Fair hits you. I've died a few times in the past to this and got a few Peach's doing this as well. Also, if your Peach mispaces her Fair or Jabs, grab her. Grab her when the Fair hits your sheild before she jabs and if she does jab, spotdodge if she goes for a 2nd one or grab her inbetween, judge the distance first so you don't get slapped. Don't go running towards her like a crazy fool cause her D Smash will slip you up. And don't try hit her out of a Fair if she SH Fair's by jumping off the ledge, shes invincible and you'll get hit


Neither side can kill very easily at all when playing carefully meaning this match will go on forever. Space for all your worth and if Peach is doing the same...well, you'll be there for a long time

Pulled out randomly from this thread, hope it helps. Yeah, Peach ****s Sonic up :<

 

[Trent]

Wasn't someone gonna write up the Bowser Match-up? I think Kojin or someone? Also Wolf has a write-up already, we should move onto Peach even though Rickery's post sums it up pretty nicely.

 

[Kinzer]

How many times have we went over Peach already?

I know that she's a w****, but we need to discuss some others too. If you ask me, just don't get dependent on your B-moves and Fair your way to her.

What about Diddy Kong? He's becoming quite the popular character that can actually do some damage if you don't know how to fight him.

...I know the pain, because I'm having trouble with Diddy myself right now.

 

[Trent]

Snake doesn't have a write up either, and he's second on the tier list, let's do some S Tier characters.

 

[Chis]

So who's going to do the Wolf write up? Maybe Kid?

We've covered eevryone like ten times, so the point of all this is to complete all the write ups. And we're stilling waiting for Kojin. Er, yeah, we'll do Peach again I guess.