Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[JayBee]

Sonic can close gaps quickly but it doesn't mean to run into falco's arms. the lasers are not only minor damage, but he has superiour mobility, so use of that is key. getting outside your ftilt range is good enough IMO.

Falco has good aerials and jabs, but its really for getting in with priority so he can just grab you. lasers to force you to come to him so he doesn't have to approach, since most options IMO are not safe outside of as a follow up from laser.


We know he can be punished offstage tho. and even though side b is fast, Timing and baiting can punish him anyway, a many times an up B offstage is bad in general.

I feel that once you get the stock lead the matchup is a lot easier, because sonic should not feel like he has to approach, and he can just bait the usual followups from laser run away from disadvantageous positions and reset, even ledge camp a bit for force falco to approach which sonic has a better time punishing.

I dont like ASC in this matchup, it basically tells falco to kill you with a hypehn smash.
and most sonics act like they have to approach him even when they kill him first. maybe its just me, but falco's approaches are not safe against Sonic .

however, until things change, that chain grab threat is enough to pressure sonic up close, and lasers from a distance are a problem regardless. i belive the first stock decides the flow of the match, but sonic will have to do more work IMO.

 

[Exceladon City]

You leave out IAPs which enable Falco to cover ground faster than Sonic and it's virtually unpunishable.

 

[Kinzer]

What are IAPs?

 

[Exceladon City]

What are IAPs?

Instant Air Phantasms

 

[da K.I.D.]

Do you mean as a means to run away and camp more? Or as a means to approach?

Cause depending on the spacing, IAPs can be very easy for sonic to punish

 

[JayBee]

You leave out IAPs which enable Falco to cover ground faster than Sonic and it's virtually unpunishable.

virtually unpunishable? sorry. after a laser in order to retreat its viable, but as an apporoach its more gimmicky. and more often than not sonic still can punish it off of him covering the ground, and at the very least get close enough to where he can punish falco's next move out of it (usually sidestep) we have examples of sonic's punishing it, and the methods used in those examples can be easily replicated, so that's not the real issue. the real question is: is the player used to the falco matchup to do that for themselves? and apparently we dont talk about that kind of "if" scenario here...

i still remember when Mach Tornado gave everyone problems... lol all it took was for people to not complain about it really...

 

[B.A.M.]

Ftilt is ur friend in this matchup. Space urself appropiately ( approx. where you could perform a screech stop and be within range for an attack). Use ASC only as a punisher, although i think it is still good for this match if u can make good reads as it does soo much damage and puts u in a good position vs falco. Get him in the air, i believe its fairly easy to read his airdodge and uair can space out dair. Also because of his falling speed, its fairly easy to get him into little bair DI traps (bair to upthrow, bair to fair, bair to upair to upair,etc) low-mid percents. When you're going for a kill, throw him off. If they cant tech dthrow, then a HA following the Dthrow will get a falco who attempts the mid-air jump to phantasm recovery. Also Ftilt ***** phantasm. Pay attention to Falco and perform it as he phantasms. It will cancel it out and Falco will fall with no knockback. Thus, he will be forced to up B.

Beware of follow ups to the chaingrab if you are caught. that thing is 40+ guaranteed and a extra 20-30 if its a good falco. Again with the appropiate spacing i describe and sonic ability to Shield Dash with SDSC lasers arent a problem; they should be openings you look for. Dtilt chains, uthrow and bthrow chains are good options at low percents. Remember your Range; getting into boxing range with Falco for too long is how he'll slaughter u with his fast attack speed. screw wasting forward smash on phantasm. mindgame him for the early kill if therecovery is predictable.

 

[BSP]

Instant Air Phantasms

Hard to believe that Sonic isn't fast enough to punish it. Are we talking instant start-up, or less lag at the end? Well, I'll assume instant start up, but I think Sonic could punish it.

K, I've fought Falco offline (yes!) so I think I have a good opinion of it. I don't find Falco's lasers to be that much of a problem, since sonic can spring to him, or spin shot, etc. Point is he can close gaps, so they aren't a problem. The problem is when you are about at jab range in front of Falco. His jab and tilts are very fast, and will most likely beat anything you throw out, except maybe a spaced ftilt (but low damage) or dtilt or Fsmash. I forgot if falco is tall enough to be hit by a SH Bair, but it's really effective if he is. His grab is a problem too, since he can chain you, and he has some good follow ups as well, maybe having a 50% or more output. Good thing is that Sonic can spring out if Falco messes up. Falco can't gimp Sonic, so I don't think you have to worry offstage. Fire bird asks to be gimped, and Sonic can punish phantasm if he is fast enough. Sonic can kill Falco at reasonable percents ( maybe about 120%+, if you keep your killers fresh), and falco can kill Sonic at about the same percent.

I'd say 50 : 50 or 55 : 45, Falco's favor. It probably doesn't matter which, because this match is really close to even.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the only time either of these characters should be dying below 130 is if sonic runs to the middle of the stage and f smashes when he predicts a phantasm to the middle of the stage, or if falco get some kind of crazy double or triple spike or something.

at 130, we can start killing with down smash land campings and bair to punish random stuff, and at 130 falco can punish almost anything you do with up smash out of shield to kill

 

[Kinzer]

I'll read all the posts so far when I get back.

I just want to stress, that Lucario's DTilt is safe on block for you to punish.

 

[JayBee]

its not a destructive matchup to play against. that's what im sensing. To me, if i can avoid the grab at early percents i did a good job at evening the matchup up a bit.

 

[BSP]

So...now what?

I'd go with 55 : 45 Falco's favor.

 

[da K.I.D.]

60 40 falco

sonic can beat falcos mostly because they use their phantasms the same way they do against every other character, but sonic is one of the few characters that phantasm is rarely safe against, since sonic can either shield spotdodge and punish it, or just run to where its going to land before the falco does and just charge a hitbox to put at the spot where he lands.

dont be afraid to just run up and fair between lasers.

learn to powershield lasers.

all of sonics charged smashes beat illusion.

 

[JayBee]

i agree with kid. if it was just the lasers that gave the falco the edge ids say 45:55, but since sonic has to avoid falco's quicker close range dangers even after you get by the lasers, and the threat of the chain grab makes it a bit more. not unbeatable though.

where are the falcos?

 

[Kinzer]

West Coast, or so that's where people say the best are.

Unless you mean Falco boards, in which case I don't think anybody notified them.

 

[Kuraudo]

It feels like 50:50 to me. Either that or 55:45 in Falco's favor. Score one for the hedgehog in closing the gap.

 

[Espy Rose]

It's obviously 60:40 Falco.

 

[King Funk]

55:45 Falco, I play with a very annoying Sonic regularily.

 

[Chis]

So who's willing to do the write up?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Can Falco chaingrab Sonic?

 

[SothE700k]

Can Falco chaingrab Sonic?

Yep, just like any other character. Though just like Marth, Sonic can escape if the Falco is 1-2 frames too slow (which is rare).

It feels like 50:50 to me. Either that or 55:45 in Falco's favor. Score one for the hedgehog in closing the gap.

WHAT!? Falco has a CLEAR advantage on the hedgehog. Laser camping, Priority: Falco >>>>> Sonic, chaingrabs, reach, the works. 60-40 EASY. Maybe even 65-35, people underestimate this matchup so much.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ah right I see

How much damage can Falco rack up with the chaingrab? Just seems strange that nobodies mentioned it

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Absolutely. He can do it up to about....40%? Haven't done it in a while. DNes and I had some Falco versus Sonic matchups to test **** out. I was able to CG to about 40 and Falco can catch Sonic at the end of it with a Dair Spike if he tries to spring. Some Falco's have trouble CGing Sonic cause a lot of them will do a dashing CG. You need to walk the first few steps otherwise you'll be a few frames TOO SLOW. You dash at about 20 percent.

 

[~TBS~]

What Terios said. It kinda sucks that you have to sometimes hope that they will attempt a dashing grab, and even then, the spike can put people, (especially Sonic) in a bad situation.

This MU is definitely 60:40, saying otherwise is kinda making me want to pat my hand on this here table. I'd kinda say its 65:35 at its absolute WORST. But other than that, no higher than my first opinion on it.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh yeah. Also when Falco does the spike after the CG on the level. He can read your tech and Fsmash pretty hard. Usually I get a sweetspot. If you roll away he can Dash attack and cancel into an Usmash but I'm pretty sure he has to buffer that so if he calls it wrong you escape. Most will probably charge an Fsmash behind them as it's got that hitbox on his back in case you just stand up/get up attack. Be careful if you roll away and he Fsmashes though. If he does a forward one I think he sourspots it. IIRC your best option is to getup attack AS SOON AS POSSIBLE so you can clang. If you wait too long his damage will break the 10 percent and he'll just override your attack. Anybody back me up/prove me wrong on that? He CAN do a 2nd dair but that's not as bad as a sweetspotted Fsmash or a Dash attack Usmash combo.

 

[Kinzer]

Suggesting that Falco is 65:35 is saying that Sonic has as much of a problem with Falco as he does Lucario and G&W.

Even with the Lasers and the Chaingrab, there is no way this matchup is any worse than 6:4. I'd say 55:45, but I still need to get more experience with the matchup before I can say that I can go (near) even with the best player in Vegas if he decided to use his main.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh. Numberwise I'd go with 6:4.

Numbers are dumb lol

 

[Kinzer]

Numbers or not, there's no way at top level play Falco will give you the same problems Lucario or G&W would. I just used number ratios because others where also.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

G&W is overrated.

OH SNAP!

 

[Kinzer]

Agreed.

10learntopunish.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Oh yeah. Also when Falco does the spike after the CG on the level. He can read your tech and Fsmash pretty hard. Usually I get a sweetspot. If you roll away he can Dash attack and cancel into an Usmash but I'm pretty sure he has to buffer that so if he calls it wrong you escape. Most will probably charge an Fsmash behind them as it's got that hitbox on his back in case you just stand up/get up attack. Be careful if you roll away and he Fsmashes though. If he does a forward one I think he sourspots it. IIRC your best option is to getup attack AS SOON AS POSSIBLE so you can clang. If you wait too long his damage will break the 10 percent and he'll just override your attack. Anybody back me up/prove me wrong on that? He CAN do a 2nd dair but that's not as bad as a sweetspotted Fsmash or a Dash attack Usmash combo.

I think its worse personally, since he can dair you once into the ground, than if he reads you right, he can dair you again, which doesnt hit you high enough to be out of the danger zone, so if you airdodge (which you probably will since your in panic mode) he can read that and dair you again. at which point your on the ground again and he can repeat the process, ive seen falcos hit with 4 dairs in a row that way and if you hit with the spiking hit box, it does stupid damage, which can turn a 35% CG into an 90% combo and a KO set up

basically you should probably wait to see what the falco does and than time a get up attack.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Agreed.

10learntopunish.

Lolnair

 

[Kinzer]

What G&W does Nair anyway?

All these n****s do is spam Dair and Bair.

Aye but no seriously... I could go into detail about this if you wanted me to.

 

[Camalange]

What G&W does Nair anyway?

srsly brah?

 

[JayBee]

I dont think G&W is that bad. But its a lot harder to fight one who uses nair a lot. if they dont use nair then they aren't that good yet. just sayin.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Kinzer, saying such idiotic things with such unwarrented conviction is part of the reason why you bother people.

Do me a favor, just type in utd zac on youtube. click on any video, and watch his bair to nair ratio.

as a matter of fact, ill do it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a0tK2DJeGk

its easily his best aerial.

 

[Browny]

his bair hit more than nair did lol...

 

[DMG]

Nair is more dangerous than Bair for G&W

I would know. Zac agrees.

 

[Kinzer]

srsly brah?

No, of course not, I know how bad this MU is.

Kinzer, saying such idiotic things with such unwarrented conviction is part of the reason why you bother people.

Do me a favor, just type in utd zac on youtube. click on any video, and watch his bair to nair ratio.

as a matter of fact, ill do it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a0tK2DJeGk

its easily his best aerial.

You still need to fix your sarcasm detector. You are really bad at not taking the internet seriously.

 

[infomon]

Kinzer, I also wasn't rly sure what you meant lol