JayBee
Smash Champion
I'll get to work on bowser sometime this week. I just need to look up that past posts again to make sure i dont get too biased, since this is the threads analysis as much as it is mine.
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
This thread needs updating, Snake is easily 65:35 :S
Also, write-up on Snake is needed.
Also, write-up on Snake is needed.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
what is actually involved in a write up, cus I dropped like every tiny piece of wolf knowledge that I could... how does that not constitute as a write up?
is there some BS form that I have submit my shiz in? cus it dont feel like doing that bull crap, you can just take all the stuff i gave you guys and copy and paste it into whatever format you want.
is there some BS form that I have submit my shiz in? cus it dont feel like doing that bull crap, you can just take all the stuff i gave you guys and copy and paste it into whatever format you want.
Chis
Finally a legend
Alright, I'll do that.
Edit:
Wait, Kinzer already did the Wolf write up. How did I miss that...
Well I'll just add yours underneth or something, as a second opinon.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Peach isn't too bad for me. What you need to do is space back airs and play the hit and run style. Literally. Peach has lots of options, but if you're going to wait it out and let her make her moves and you take advantage of that, you shouldn't have too much problems. Peach doesn't **** Sonic over as much as others may think. It's like how I originally thought of Marth. Now Marth is a fun match against Sonic.
[EDITED NOTE]
When playing Praxis at Genesis, I took the match against him. Friendly, but nonetheless, if Peach is supposed to be some horrendous nightmare, and I could take it to Praxis at one of the most hype'd tourneys ever where you need to be at the top of your game? She's not a monster. Know how to face her.
[/EDITED NOTE]
You just gotta learn the match-up. Advantage Peach? Oh yeah. 60/40? Possible. To me it feels 55/45.
Sonic's easiest top tier match-ups, in my opinion, are Falco and Diddy Kong. To me, they're literally 50/50. CP Falco on Yoshi's Island or Pictochat, and when you spin dash over the edge and come barreling through, I figured out that for SOME reason, Falco's lasers literally pass RIGHT through you. And Spin Dash/Spin Charge/Dash Attack renders Diddy's nanner game severely restricted if you play it right, and there's not much that Diddy can do asides hope for you to slip, do an FThrow, or a FAir.
Diddy's frustrating only if you let him be. The same goes for Falco. I'm not afraid of either of them. And I'm not afraid of Peach either.
Every character in the game has one big weakness against Sonic. Cancelling his spin dashes when you don't know when he's coming or not.
Sonic is one of the few lower tier'd characters who actually knows how to shut Diddy down and quicklike. And with one of the safest dash attacks to pick up the bananas if he tries using them against you, throwing them away or glide tossing one into an FSmash (done this before, took the win too for it, was epic).
I can't see the complications behind Sonic vs. Lucario either... Kasai, a Lucario from Maui, was really **** good. His aura, the quickness on some of his attacks and the disjointedness of his FSmash is really dangerous to be sure, but Lucario suffers from the same thing most other characters do. He's just TOO slow. One missed FSmash and I've already closed the gap and grabbed him or dash attacked him. One shielded FAir to DAir, and he gets UAir'd. Pushed off the stage? Stage spike'd or gimped by taking the ledge if you read them going for it.
I haven't seen the real complications behind Lucario yet, personally.
[EDIT AGAIN]
As for Snake? When grounded, Snake is going to absolutely DESTROY you. But once you take Snake into the air, if you're smarter about it and know the potential of your aerials, Snake is helpless. It's like a reversal. On the ground, the match-up is 65/35 for Snake. But in the air, the match-up has turned into something along the lines of 65/35 in Sonic's favor. If you're below or beside Snake (preferably in his front where you're less likely to get the back air as a counter, and below least you avoid the up air), you're at the clear advantage, and there's nothing that Snake can do but either pull out a grenade, risking his own death from that high up, try and attack you, or air dodge.
Snake is on the ground more often then not, controlling so many things though. So pretty much, don't expect smooth sailings. EVER, against Snake. But set him up just right and the damage climbs, and you're that much closer to taking the stock.
Try this, it's not a true combo, but a lot of Snakes can get predicted into this if they're not prepared.
UThrow > UThrow > UAir > BAir/FAir (varies on which way they DI)
It's basic reading for how heavy Snake is, and the impulse to back air back down to the ground or air dodge after the first UTHrow. And if you really know what you're doing. Charge a DSmash. They'll land RIGHT down on it if they're caught up in the moment. Great starter on many Snakes. And the UThrows get even better as starters for the combo if not fresh.
[EDITED NOTE]
When playing Praxis at Genesis, I took the match against him. Friendly, but nonetheless, if Peach is supposed to be some horrendous nightmare, and I could take it to Praxis at one of the most hype'd tourneys ever where you need to be at the top of your game? She's not a monster. Know how to face her.
[/EDITED NOTE]
You just gotta learn the match-up. Advantage Peach? Oh yeah. 60/40? Possible. To me it feels 55/45.
Sonic's easiest top tier match-ups, in my opinion, are Falco and Diddy Kong. To me, they're literally 50/50. CP Falco on Yoshi's Island or Pictochat, and when you spin dash over the edge and come barreling through, I figured out that for SOME reason, Falco's lasers literally pass RIGHT through you. And Spin Dash/Spin Charge/Dash Attack renders Diddy's nanner game severely restricted if you play it right, and there's not much that Diddy can do asides hope for you to slip, do an FThrow, or a FAir.
Diddy's frustrating only if you let him be. The same goes for Falco. I'm not afraid of either of them. And I'm not afraid of Peach either.
Every character in the game has one big weakness against Sonic. Cancelling his spin dashes when you don't know when he's coming or not.
Sonic is one of the few lower tier'd characters who actually knows how to shut Diddy down and quicklike. And with one of the safest dash attacks to pick up the bananas if he tries using them against you, throwing them away or glide tossing one into an FSmash (done this before, took the win too for it, was epic).
I can't see the complications behind Sonic vs. Lucario either... Kasai, a Lucario from Maui, was really **** good. His aura, the quickness on some of his attacks and the disjointedness of his FSmash is really dangerous to be sure, but Lucario suffers from the same thing most other characters do. He's just TOO slow. One missed FSmash and I've already closed the gap and grabbed him or dash attacked him. One shielded FAir to DAir, and he gets UAir'd. Pushed off the stage? Stage spike'd or gimped by taking the ledge if you read them going for it.
I haven't seen the real complications behind Lucario yet, personally.
[EDIT AGAIN]
As for Snake? When grounded, Snake is going to absolutely DESTROY you. But once you take Snake into the air, if you're smarter about it and know the potential of your aerials, Snake is helpless. It's like a reversal. On the ground, the match-up is 65/35 for Snake. But in the air, the match-up has turned into something along the lines of 65/35 in Sonic's favor. If you're below or beside Snake (preferably in his front where you're less likely to get the back air as a counter, and below least you avoid the up air), you're at the clear advantage, and there's nothing that Snake can do but either pull out a grenade, risking his own death from that high up, try and attack you, or air dodge.
Snake is on the ground more often then not, controlling so many things though. So pretty much, don't expect smooth sailings. EVER, against Snake. But set him up just right and the damage climbs, and you're that much closer to taking the stock.
Try this, it's not a true combo, but a lot of Snakes can get predicted into this if they're not prepared.
UThrow > UThrow > UAir > BAir/FAir (varies on which way they DI)
It's basic reading for how heavy Snake is, and the impulse to back air back down to the ground or air dodge after the first UTHrow. And if you really know what you're doing. Charge a DSmash. They'll land RIGHT down on it if they're caught up in the moment. Great starter on many Snakes. And the UThrows get even better as starters for the combo if not fresh.
Kinzer
Mammy
What makes Lucario a pain in the *** is that you have to be constantly adapting, and you can't slip-up hardly or you'll risk eating something that hurts; really, really hurts.
Granted, why can't the same be applied to other matchups, I don't know. I think Ike and Lucario play similar in how they reap for your mistakes... the obvious difference being Lucario can force you to do something stupid easier, has a better recovery, combos (in mah Barlwz?!?), and stuff like that.
Granted, why can't the same be applied to other matchups, I don't know. I think Ike and Lucario play similar in how they reap for your mistakes... the obvious difference being Lucario can force you to do something stupid easier, has a better recovery, combos (in mah Barlwz?!?), and stuff like that.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
It's the same for people playing Sonic too. Slip-up, and you're gonna eat some considerate damage if Sonic starts something, and then reads into more and more and more. Lucario has the disadvantage of his recovery not doing ANYTHING to you. So if he's gonna recover, at least he can't hit/hurt you in the process. Take advantage of that whenever you can.
He's not too tough.
Kinzer
Mammy
You have to play to exploit any possible mistake in the MU.
I don't think you quite understand or have experienced the misery that every other Sonic has to go through should they be unlucky to have a (good) Lucario in their scene. I'm not calling you out, but I'm trying to see if I can put this in a way that you can see just how unfavorable this is when Lucario plays safe and predicts your every move, and again Sonic thrives on making the opponent panic.
Then again, maybe I should stop going with the majority and say that I think that Lucario is a do-able matchup. I don't know, maybe I'm playing the MU really well, the Lucarios I play suck, or this matchup is really not as nightmarish as it's made out to be. I will not deny that you have to work really @#$%ing hard to do just that though. With Jigglypuff for example, I am almost at the borderline of sandbagging, and just putting out enough effort to relax, but still come out victorious. An extreme example sure, but I'm trying to get the point across that when fighting certain opponents, there's a margin of error that can be allowed before it builds up too much and you collapse under the weight (of the cinderblock (sp?) and drown in your pool).
I don't think you quite understand or have experienced the misery that every other Sonic has to go through should they be unlucky to have a (good) Lucario in their scene. I'm not calling you out, but I'm trying to see if I can put this in a way that you can see just how unfavorable this is when Lucario plays safe and predicts your every move, and again Sonic thrives on making the opponent panic.
Then again, maybe I should stop going with the majority and say that I think that Lucario is a do-able matchup. I don't know, maybe I'm playing the MU really well, the Lucarios I play suck, or this matchup is really not as nightmarish as it's made out to be. I will not deny that you have to work really @#$%ing hard to do just that though. With Jigglypuff for example, I am almost at the borderline of sandbagging, and just putting out enough effort to relax, but still come out victorious. An extreme example sure, but I'm trying to get the point across that when fighting certain opponents, there's a margin of error that can be allowed before it builds up too much and you collapse under the weight (of the cinderblock (sp?) and drown in your pool).
Kuraudo
4Aerith
For me, I feel I'm playing the MU really well. Kasai's Lucario competes with the higher up players in Hawaii, including DarkMusician (the best Zelda, an impressive Meta Knight, and one of the top ranked players on the island) and whatnot. Lucario is hardly bad. We're being disillusioned by the range on his FSmash and the speed his FAir comes out and strings attacks together.
Kinzer
Mammy
What do you mean "we?" People who have trouble shielding? @.@
Sonic must be the only character in this game being capable of punishing Lucario's FSmash (Dash Attack, or a Tilt-attack if you were up close when he did it, but at that range, other characters have options too). As for his aerials, you just have to be quick with OoS options, like Uair (!) or Fair. Sometimes if they'r close enough to the ground when they Dair you, you can punish with Tilts.
<3 Sonic's speed. *Rub*
Sonic must be the only character in this game being capable of punishing Lucario's FSmash (Dash Attack, or a Tilt-attack if you were up close when he did it, but at that range, other characters have options too). As for his aerials, you just have to be quick with OoS options, like Uair (!) or Fair. Sometimes if they'r close enough to the ground when they Dair you, you can punish with Tilts.
<3 Sonic's speed. *Rub*
Kuraudo
4Aerith
And now you're beginning to see the reasons why Lucario is hardly Sonic's worst nightmare. That's the way. ^^b
Browny
Smash Hater
I've never lost as lucario to a sonic afaik.
It's usually a 3 stock too.
It's usually a 3 stock too.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
What kind of Sonics do you face over there? I'd like to see you 3-Stock one of our Sonics over here.
And no, I'm not calling you out or anything, but really. If you're never losing to Sonics with your Lucario, when there's so many over here, that might say something for their lack of experience.
Maybe you're just a totally beastly player.
And no, I'm not calling you out or anything, but really. If you're never losing to Sonics with your Lucario, when there's so many over here, that might say something for their lack of experience.
Maybe you're just a totally beastly player.
Browny
Smash Hater
nah, aus sucks at everything. the vast majority of my luc vs sonic experience is on wifi, theres one tourney-level sonic user i can play offline here but still, I dont remember losing in either case.
its mostly coz no one is going to surprise me with any Sonic tricks, when I know all of Sonics options extremely well and lucarios, it makes it a little one sided in my experience :/
its mostly coz no one is going to surprise me with any Sonic tricks, when I know all of Sonics options extremely well and lucarios, it makes it a little one sided in my experience :/
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I agree with this, as i also play both lucario and sonic at a tourney level, and playing against sonic with lucario always seems like I have a solid advantage. The problem with sonic, is that he can do some major damage, after he gets in side somebody but the same goes for a character like lucario. but since we are taking this particular matchup ill give an example.
sonic whiffs a f smash. if im lucario and sonic is at 0, i will
1. Side b
2. to side b
3. to SH fair
4. to nair,
5. to jab 12
6. to grab up throw
7. to full hop nair
8. to aura sphere
steps 1 through 6 are all a full combo in most cases (you CAN mash out of side b but nobody ever does), step 7 is hard to get out of if I time it right, and step 8 is more to block your options and make you walk into more attacks.
lucario misses an f smash, if im sonic and lucario is at 0 i would
1. dash attack
2. to f tilt,
3. to run up and SH ASC
4. to double jump up air
5. to spring down air,
6. to spring up air.
from step 2, EVERYTHING you do requires a read or a mindgame, or intense spacing or a mixture of the 3. Sonic can easily rack up 70-80 damage in one string of hits. but you need to read your opponent every step of the way, where as other characters, such as lucario and fox, have auto comboes that goes to almost similar percentages, and require only minimal reading of DI. thats the diff. between sonic and better characters.
Kinzer
Mammy
How do some of those combos even exist with DI being in this game?
Bah, Nobody ever gets close to perfect play~.
Bah, Nobody ever gets close to perfect play~.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Side B doesn't work on me often. LOL I used to secondary Lucario, and once people learned to break out, I learned to as well if I were to face one. If you don't break out though...prepare to get combo'd by Lucario. lmao
My combo on Snake exists due to reading and understanding their DI. So it's all a matter of how good you are at keeping the momentum going. Don't ever stop!
My combo on Snake exists due to reading and understanding their DI. So it's all a matter of how good you are at keeping the momentum going. Don't ever stop!
Kinzer
Mammy
Don't Stop, Just Go!?
...Yeah yeah! Row row, fight da powuh!
...Actually to keep this on-topic, what do the majority of you think about Jigglypuff? I am very interested in her (nevermind the fact nobody uses her). If you ask me, Sonic has a slight advantage. I am willing to back-up my claim if anybody is curious.
...Yeah yeah! Row row, fight da powuh!
...Actually to keep this on-topic, what do the majority of you think about Jigglypuff? I am very interested in her (nevermind the fact nobody uses her). If you ask me, Sonic has a slight advantage. I am willing to back-up my claim if anybody is curious.
You do realize that I had never played against a Sonic player in my life before, right?
>_>
Kinzer
Mammy
And chances are you never will again.
...How did I miss that part? I even saw the edited brackets... >:/
...How did I miss that part? I even saw the edited brackets... >:/
Boxob.
Smash Lord
Kinzer
Mammy
Oh man, let's not make something out of this. One too many a time people make too much out of a friendly, and it just gets ugly. :/
Yes he lost. Yes it was a friendly. Yes, it could be considered that it happened too long ago. At least we got some referential, yesh?
Somebody say something relevant before I kill this thread with my post/presence. :/
Yes he lost. Yes it was a friendly. Yes, it could be considered that it happened too long ago. At least we got some referential, yesh?
Somebody say something relevant before I kill this thread with my post/presence. :/
Boxob.
Smash Lord
yo kinzer i herd u suck/
Kuraudo
4Aerith
The game we did play though was hella fun. Do that again next time I'm down or you go to Canadia or something?
Kinzer
Mammy
Kuraudo
4Aerith
yeah. come on over, eh?
Kinzer
Mammy
I'm sure if I ask my mom in a way that makes it look like a road-trip (she just loves to go outta town. :/) Then I don't see why I can't pay a visit in the Summer Vacation (unless she realizes that doing these constant trips costs a Helluva lot of money, in which case no chance.)
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Funny story about that, Summer Vacation, I plan on hosting a (hopefully) massive event. 64/Melee/Brawl over the course of 3 days. The Canadian Genesis, I suppose.
Totally up for it
I'm just saying not to try to discern matchup data from a friendly with someone with no clue what they were doing xDI'll try to make it up to Canada sometime, but I'm on a Smash hiatus while I buy a house.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
XD; We've got a pretty good Peach player over here as well, DTP, whom knows the match-up really well as well, and actually wrecked me beforehand because he knew the match-up better than me. But now the match-up is no problem and less complicated once we both understand it, so there's those credentials.
Sorry if our friendly example was offensive/unfounded, regardless.
You go, Prax. Buy that house. BUY IT.
[EDIT]
... Wow. That first sentence was garbage. LMAO Well well well well lolz
Sorry if our friendly example was offensive/unfounded, regardless.
You go, Prax. Buy that house. BUY IT.
[EDIT]
... Wow. That first sentence was garbage. LMAO Well well well well lolz
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
if you want it to be as big as genesis, there should be a thread up for it at least 6 months in advance
We played 2/3rds of a friendly game at the HOBO you showed up to.
Joshkip
Smash Journeyman
i know its a bit out of place but
(Typical ZSS picture that's not really suitable...)
use this for zss matchup pic?
(Typical ZSS picture that's not really suitable...)
use this for zss matchup pic?
Chis
Finally a legend
Anyways, let's move on to Falco?
Edit: Yeah, I'll do the Peach write up.
Also, Kid, do you want to rewrite the Ike match up? Since you play San and all.
Edit: Yeah, I'll do the Peach write up.
Also, Kid, do you want to rewrite the Ike match up? Since you play San and all.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
depends, what do i actuallly need to do?
Chis
Finally a legend
Well, explain what to look out for, avoid and how to win really. I would prefer it if you kept to the format, but if you really don't want too, then don't.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
if thats the case, didnt I do that like 10 pages ago?
and just for kicks (aka im lazy) put the big long post I make about wolf and the multiple posts i made on ike together and put that on the OP as written and then somebody else can put the falco right up in the correct procedurre and format and such, and let the community tell which is more effective at helping them with the matchup.
cus a lot of the time when people do stuff by the format theres all this BS about the characters background and where they came from and all this story telling BS that has nothing to do with smash at all, and then the stuff that it does seems like it doesnt help and is way too general.
I read this write up about how to fight mario this one time and there were all these point less references to his games and all that, and all I learned about how to fight mario after this massive wall of text was that power shielding fireballs and trying to attack afterwards gets you down smashed.
and just for kicks (aka im lazy) put the big long post I make about wolf and the multiple posts i made on ike together and put that on the OP as written and then somebody else can put the falco right up in the correct procedurre and format and such, and let the community tell which is more effective at helping them with the matchup.
cus a lot of the time when people do stuff by the format theres all this BS about the characters background and where they came from and all this story telling BS that has nothing to do with smash at all, and then the stuff that it does seems like it doesnt help and is way too general.
I read this write up about how to fight mario this one time and there were all these point less references to his games and all that, and all I learned about how to fight mario after this massive wall of text was that power shielding fireballs and trying to attack afterwards gets you down smashed.
Trent
Smash Champion
Stage wise he seems to have trouble on Lylat, and obviously ban Japes.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
fd is never a ban or avoid for sonic.