Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Chis]

So I fixed the OP a bit. How about we start re discussing all the characters with no guides, then chip in to make the guide?

 

[Kinzer]

Why not (re-)start with Bowser?

...Just offering a suggestion, and it seems like a hot-topic after Espy & Vex's MM.

 

[Chis]

Okay, let's start with Bowser. Also can someone ask people from Bowser boards to join? Thanks.

 

[Tesh]

I agree with Kinzer.
What should be important about these threads is discussing how "Character A" can deal with "Character B" and their move set.

Bickering about a number that describes what you haven't discussed is not helpful to anything except a placement on a tier list.

If you can manage to convince the community that Ganondorf has an 80-20 match up with Meta knight without any proof or discussion, it doesn't help a real Ganon beat a real Meta knight.

If someone is coming to this thread for help with a match up, I think this person would need something more along the lines of "If you find yourself caught in this attack, you can SDI out and free a free uair!!" not "If you find yourself caught in this attack, yell 80-20 at the other player. Works every time."

Can't we just discuss whats going to be relevant after 3 2 1 GO?

Or we can have a separate thread for community match up johns. So that next time you lose to Bowser or Donkey Kong you can tell yourself "20:80, there was nothing I could do".

Sorry for the rant, as it is arguably as useless and just posting "I think its 90:10 kthnxbai"

 

[4nace]

Yessss. I need Bowser help! ESPY come train me!

Also, I have lots of experience vs Zelda and Jigglypuff that I can trade for some help with Bowser haha.

If anyone can give me some tips or just discuss tactics, then that would be awesome.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Tesh is absolutely right.

also, i dont think espy needs help with fighting jigglypuff, for 2 reasons.
1. who the hell plays jigglypuff?
2. Espy already does lol.

 

[4nace]

I meant for anyone, not just ESPY haha.
Plus Jiggs Bowser and Zelda are all low tiers hence why i would mention those two.

 

[Kinzer]

Tesh is absolutely right.

D*** you. Tesh just gave you the essay version of what I just F'ing said!

Anyway, I've left a notice on the Bowser boards' MU thread.

If anything, I look forward to Espy/Vex's opinion on this (more emphasis on Espy's opinion obviously because of bias/meatriding).

...But should I expect much? I've been hearing some things that Espy is better at playing the game than giving other people advice. :<

Please tell me I'm wrong on that.

 

[Camalange]

Sonic's spindash gets destroyed by Bowser's UpB OoS.

Random Thoughts as they come to me : With that said, ASC is still a decent option because it can easily shield poke Bowser and lead to attack strings. Bowser gets pretty easily juggled. Ban BF. Side B has a lot more range than you think. Bowser doesn't die until high percents. He's a powerhouse. Bowser can do a lot of cool tricks from ledges and platform, will sometimes do ledgehop Uair as a KO move if you're hovering over or trying to get back on the stage. Ftilt is really strong and has great range. Use Fair and Uair alot. Bowser can get jabs from GR, uncertain of what else he can get on Sonic.

--

awww right. maybe add more later.

 

[Kinzer]

Wait... wut?

The great prophet of Battlefield (and Bairs) just said to BAN it?

Is there something about Bowser that I don't know about and may want to take into consideration?

 

[Camalange]

Wait... wut?

The great prophet of Battlefield (and Bairs) just said to BAN it?

Is there something about Bowser that I don't know about and may want to take into consideration?

Yes.



Sadly -_-

 

[BSP]

Platform pressure maybe? Bowser can do it pretty well

 

[infomon]

Bowser is huge. HUUUUGE!

You can't escape him on BF. His fire covers most of the ground (lol), and the platforms really help him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol at shadowlink getting upset because he agrees that sonic gets ***** by ICs but for completely different reasons.

Oh really?
Perhaps you cannot read

Here let me simplify things for you
Kid: IC's **** Sonic 7-3
Sl84: its disadvantaged but its not **** 6-4


Its an agreement on a disadvantage but a disagreement on the degree.
The fact you fail to realize as well as the reason for criticizing you is laughable.

if we already have an understanding that their character ***** ours,

Except it isnt ****, its a winnable matchup.
But I hear dyslexia has been increasing in occurrence so hey, if thats what happened I wont blame you.

No one is that stupid right?
Right?

than what point does it serve to argue about numbers that people dont even understand the meaning of if we are both coming to the same conclusion?

sonic loses to ICs really really hard. what more needs to be said?[/COLOR]

Okay then lets make every matchup 100-0.
The accuracy doesnt matter, all you need to know is that your character has a disadvantage.
Doesn't matter, its still ****. =D

Kid logic FTW


ANways about Bowser, to be honest I haven't really faced a good one but from what I have seen, his defensive game will prove to be a major annoyance. Fortress OOS is even better than Marth's and far less vulnerable and he moves surprisingly quick for his size.

I do think Sonic does make great use of Bowser's size (you can land a 43% combo at the start WITH di) and the ability to jump cancel really helps deal with some of bowser's defensive ability.

Not sure about a matchup ratio.

Edit: Infzy I dont think BF is too much ofa problem, we still out manuever him on BF. Its definitely not a place I would want to go, especially since Sonic hates having an opponent below him.

 

[B!squick]

I played a good Sonic once. He knew way too many approaches and ways to mix them up for me to do much, though I was always ready for UAir and thus I lasted a long time on each stock. I don't think Sonic has any "safe" approaches but predicting them is impossible. x_x Playing straight defense just doesn't work.

 

[Napilopez]

I haven'tplayed a decent ICs in a bit, but I really don'tsee it being any worse than 60:40.

Grabs are a barely an issue, relatively speaking. Desynch stuff and damage as SL sad should be your biggest issues.

I do think Sonic's ability to separate the ICs though deserves more credit. More importantly though, Sonic can pursue a loose nana better than pretty much anyone else in the game, and once Nana is dead its much easier, obviously. You have to play the ICs cautiously while they're together, and relentlessly when they are apart. Like, their is no excuse not to kill Nana after you've separated them enough.

KID and I always disagree on matchups D: except like, marth. lol.

I say bowser is somewhere in the realm of 55:45 to 45:55.

P.S. So I see KID and SL are still fighting, ^_^ <3

 

[Espy Rose]

Bowser can get jabs from GR, uncertain of what else he can get on Sonic.

Bowser can GR chain grab Sonic all the way across a stage and follow up with jab, tilt, any throw, or sideB.

You're gonna eat around 20-30% with every time you get grabbed.

 

[Tesh]

From the Bowser Grab release thread.
Ground release
Sonic

Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release downb(I'm fairly certain all you have to do is airdodge after the first hit)
Grab release ftilt
Grab release jab

Air release
Sonic

Grab release chaingrab
Grab release dash attack
Grab release fair

Not sure how accurate it is, but Ftilt and Fair are both kill moves when fresh at the edge (should be with all the pummels).

Could any Bowser mains tell me why Bair isn't guaranteed, since its only 1 frame slower than fair +2 for pivoting before the jump. Or is it a range problem more than a speed issue?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Bowser can GR chain grab Sonic all the way across a stage and follow up with jab, tilt, any throw, or sideB.

You're gonna eat around 20-30% with every time you get grabbed.

the one time vex did it to you is honestly the only time ive seen in done that well across an entire stage. It seems to be very hard to time

 

[Cassius.]

the one time vex did it to you is honestly the only time ive seen in done that well across an entire stage. It seems to be very hard to time

It's not hard to time...well, all you do is wait for the release, and dashgrab again. For Bowser mains I suppose it isn't that difficult, but there is a margin of error where you can mess up, lol. But Vex did a good job of showcasing the grab release power with that CG across the stage.

Like people said before, BF would be one of your primary bans/strikes when facing a Bowser, since it is our best stage. Klawhopping/dropping can be utilized really well there.

I'll add more when I wake up -.- but I think you guys got the gist of what Bowser is really about. The match between Espy and Vex really helps a lot, but if there are questions I'm sure we could answer =D

I'll also see if I can get the other Bowsers to come here. :/

 

[JayBee]

I played a bowser before. I basically had to take my time and be defensive. show a lot of approaches and fakes. It got obvious to be that any lack of discipline would get be grabbed or side B'd. I did an okay job of baiting those OOS fortresses, but knowing that his size will let me combo the mess outta him, i just played defensive and made sure I was able to pull it out. I didn't feel like he'd destroy me so long as I weaved in and out with dashes n stuff.

I think its in sonic's favor, 55-45.

 

[da K.I.D.]

question: can bowser fortress OOS between hits of the ASC? this is a small tidbit that I think affects the matchup greatly

 

[BSP]

I played a bowser before. I basically had to take my time and be defensive. show a lot of approaches and fakes. It got obvious to be that any lack of discipline would get be grabbed or side B'd. I did an okay job of baiting those OOS fortresses, but knowing that his size will let me combo the mess outta him, i just played defensive and made sure I was able to pull it out. I didn't feel like he'd destroy me so long as I weaved in and out with dashes n stuff.

I think its in sonic's favor, 55-45.

I agree with everything you said, but I'd put the ratio at 50 : 50. Like you said, if sonic makes a mistake, he can get chaingrabed, ground release sonic to a side b, about 19 damage or worse. Bowser doesnt have to rack up as much as sonic does before he can kill, so like you said, sonic really has to be ready to punish any opening. 50 :50 just because they can both punish each other well, but sonic has to do a little extra before he can finish him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this is just like the fox v sonic discussion in the other thread,

sonic punishes better, but bowser/fox punishes way harder.

jab to side b is a combo for bowser?

 

[BSP]

I'm not too sure, but ground release to over b is. So let me change what I said : ground release to over b is about 18 damage, not including the pummels bowser can get in.

More: if sonic gets air released, he can get cg'd or fair ed or dash attack, but the point is sonic is gonna take some damage for his mistakes.

lol edit again, puffball said it : "Bowser can GR chain grab Sonic all the way across a stage and follow up with jab, tilt, any throw, or sideB.

You're gonna eat around 20-30% with every time you get grabbed."

So sonic really needs to be carefull here

 

[Flayl]

jab to side b is a combo for bowser?

It can be, depends on your position when Bowser jabs you.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Ok ok. I have to play Vex at pound 4 in a money match so I'm really in here trying to get this down. Never played a GOOD bowser before.

Some things have been repeated over and over so lets start to talk about ways to handle the situation now?

We know getting grabbed by bowser is the thing you least want. Since he has so many options to wrack up damage on Sonic out of it. Spindash vs Bowser is a no go if Sheilded. OOS Fortress eats through it. Hell OOS Fortress eats through alot, is a fast move, and I dont even know how to punish it.

Only advice i heard was to mix up approaches with Cancels etc. I got that. I think every match should be played like that. Common since. But when it comes to attacking. What should we rely on? And what not to rely on?

 

[Umby]

I don't think Fortress is punishable at all if you get hit. Shielded, I think the best you can do is dash attack at moderate percentages. If you pshielded, maybe a grab. After that, uair dat ho.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its tight to time, but any shielded fortress from bowser can be dash grabbed. Also, you need to note that grounded and aerial fortress are two completely different moves.

Grounded fortress, has a strong hit, and is invincible until that hit starts and a weaker hit right after and is completely attackless after that so if you shield it, hes very vulnerable and the only thing he can do use the move to get away. but sonic is faster than it, so he should be able to always punish it. also, i think its one of those moves that if you shield the first part, the second hit cannot hit you.

Aerial fortress is like dks up b except that it covers slightly less horizontal distance and a bit more verticle. however. insteadof just one strong hit and one weak hit, its made up of like 10 reallly small hits that its really hard to DI out of, but even if you dont DI it, I dont think theres one of those last hits that blows you away. so even if you eat all of it, you should be able to fast fall a fair or up air to punish it. Also, aerial fortress has that tornado cancel effect, where if it ends at a certain height (around BF platform height) it hits the ground with no lag.

Also, vex is probably better than this, but when i play good bowsers, if you are inside them and they cant see you on the screen, they instinctively fortress, like every time. so if you can come up with a way to like land inside them and just hold shield, youll pretty much get a free grab.

spring traps are amazing vs bowser. hes really fat, so its hard to miss him. and once hes in the air, his options are bad. he pretty much has up air, which is slow, airdodge, which is punishable cus hes fat, and up b, which, when used that high in the air, is horrendously punishable.

Also, bowser is kinda like the iceclimbers, his grabs will **** you, but you want him to grab as much as possible, because his grab is laggy and really short ranged, so if he whiffs, you should be able to punish pretty hard, which will proceed with the juggling that we need to be good at to win this match. Bowser, seems to me, to be the basic mid tier character, he has very few options a lot of the time, but the options that he does have are very good.

@vex, do you still think I know nothing of youre character? im probably not 100% right, but still id say i have a good amount of knowledge for a non-bowser main

 

[B_AWAL]

Any1 got advice on Olimars?

 

[B!squick]

Well, I see I don't have anything to do really. Don't get grabbed. Stay away from small stages with platforms. UpB OoS is ****.

question: can bowser fortress OOS between hits of the ASC? this is a small tidbit that I think affects the matchup greatly

The only thing would would beat it is something else with invincibility frames, though few last as long as Fortress. In fact, I don't think any do besides Kirby's DownB. Other than that, you need something with godly priority like Ganon's UAir or Kirdy's DAir.

 

[4nace]

Sounds like we should take Bowsers to Yoshis and use the invincible frames to our advantage. If we can clang him in fortress then we could jab-grab or f-tilt quicker than most of his reactions then I think.

Could be worth noting if the bowser doesn't know the sonic match-up. might get a few free f-tilts before they figure it out.

 

[da K.I.D.]

bowsers jab out ranges sonics jab and is faster than our f tilt.

if bowser clanks with fortress, he can just fortress again, and itll probably beat everything, seeing as it has instant invincibility frames 1-6

 

[Boxob.]

bowsers jab out ranges sonics jab and is faster than our f tilt.

if bowser clanks with fortress, he can just fortress again, and itll probably beat everything, seeing as it has instant invincibility frames 1-6

In the event you clash with his fortress, shield. He WILL fortress again, it's his best attack out of clank, out of shield, out of anything lol.

You should always be able to get the powershield off as long as he does it right away. And if not, then you're safe, just jump back and reset the situation. Don't get greedy against bowser, it'll get you killed or severely punished.

 

[BSP]

Boxob is right, sonic can't get greedy or he might get punished pretty hard. Same with bowser though.

happy kinzer?

 

[Kinzer]

Greefy...?

Beefy...?

I'm afraid even though we basically are the meat department of SWF, Bowser has us beat there.

Seriously though, when does the Fortress' hitbox come out? That's fancy and all how it's probably the safest CQC OoS move, but yeah...

Does it come out on the 6th frame?

I'm too lazy to test it myself and I'm sure there's already some info on that somewhere.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Fortress hits on frame 6, is invincible frames 1-5

Good greef...

 

[Tesh]

Bowser boards says it comes out on frame 6, directly after the invincible frames end. Does this mean if there is a gap in shield stun for a multihit move he can just use this to power through anyway? Everyone makes mistakes but this sounds like an awful thing to go up against for any low range character with no projectile. With perfect timing, that is pretty much a frame 1 OoS hit.

If Bowser just stands there, what can we do about him. You can't really fake one of a dozen approach options if he has an option that beats all of them OoS.

His size and slow Dair would suggest to me that uair1-F/Dsmash would work here, but how do we get him in the air to get this 170ish damage needed to finish him off. When I do manage to land something, I find its best to footstool him in the air(either the animation is long or its just because he is big) and ASC him. His size allows for some easy tech chasing and if you can SDJ-footstool consecutively it can be huge damage.

So how can we safely deal some damage to a Bowser in a neutral standing position without getting grabbed or hit by fortress. Is there enough range on bair to hit the back of his shield and get away before he can grab or fortress?

But I have a plan. 50 springs on his head or CP DDD.

Edit:It might be worth noting that (like everybody in this game) Bowser is put in a similar position if we just stand there and do nothing, as we can punish any attack he throws out too hastily. So maybe 8 minute staring contest + 1 spring.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Does this mean if there is a gap in shield stun for a multihit move he can just use this to power through anyway? Everyone makes mistakes but this sounds like an awful thing to go up against

It is. thats why bowser can up b, wolf can down b and marth can up b all between the hits of snakes nair, and i know that if you time it right, marth can up b between the ASC hits. which is why I asked about bowser doing the same thing.

So how can we safely deal some damage to a Bowser in a neutral standing position without getting grabbed or hit by fortress. Is there enough range on bair to hit the back of his shield and get away before he can grab or fortress?

good question.

Get inventive. Bowser is slow (in the relativity of this matchup) so try running straight at and past him, and see if he reacts, I bet he wont do anything fast enough, and maybe it will open up an oppurtunity for you. like i said, try to make up ways to literally get inside of him with your shield, so as to make him do a very punishable up b.

 

[Kinzer]

It is. thats why bowser can up b, wolf can down b and marth can up b all between the hits of snakes nair, and i know that if you time it right, marth can up b between the ASC hits. which is why I asked about bowser doing the same thing.

I hope you've considered hitstun (it exists in this game).

Or if you meant doing the invincible attacks out of a shield, that there is shieldstun, and...

...Is "freezeframe" the right term for this? I don't know the word for it, but when an attack connects with something, there is an amount of time it is frozen, and I believe this causes the hitbox to stay out longer too.

A great example is Sonic's Fair, or Pikachu's DSmash. As Sonic, if my shield is being pressured by a multi-hit move, I have to hold it in longer because it extends the duration of the attack, and it's a pain because I just want to drop the shield and hit them with something da****!

Sure, when you're counting frames, the difference is hardly noticeable, but it's still there, and it still makes a Helluva difference. If I were playing Bowser, all I have to consider is shieldstun and timing my Up-B right (and I suppose whether or not it would hit, no point in trying to go after something like Aura Sphere if done from far away).