Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[MrEh]

[2] Random Q: It doesn't grab under Bowser, does it?
No.. implications meant or anything.

:3

Not directly below Bowser, but it still grabs pretty low. The hitbox on an aerial Klaw is just deceptively large.

[3] (on Sonic's side-B vs Bowser's shield) - The reason I threw out the side-B hop 'approach' was that Sonic can double jump, spring, or other movement straight out of the side-B upon contact, or even before it. It's one of the "safest" close range "approaches" Sonic has, only hindered by the Sonic player's own reaction/prediction ability.

I dunno if an OoS Fortress can stop this. Then again, the hitbox for the Fortress is pretty big. *shrugs*

It's possible to stop it with a powershield Fortress though. :/

 

[Jim Morrison]

I lived to 199 against Gf2tw's sonic an that was on wifi (which I don't do well on AT ALL).

Most average powered chars kill bowser close to 130+

For sonic it's probably 160+ unless he's able to use fsmash, uair or some other fresh move.

-Bowser King

Late answer, as I couldn't answer it before.

Bowser King is right, Bowser will live to about 160+, but not 199. It was once when I couldn't get the kill move to hit (durr).
However, I also killed you at 120%

But the short time we played, I didn't notice much in Bowsers favor. How can you lean towards Bowser (small) advantage. I'd say easily, 55:45 Sonic.

*ends Bowser discussion RIGHT HERE*

Lucario is middle-heavyweight, so he'll be killed at around 130-140%, giving him already an advantage of aura.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I dont like this new set up, where people are talking about lucario and bowser at the same time.

and before when we were talking about bowser adn wolf at the same time.

It gives the feeling that we arent organised.

I dont feel like talking about either cus I dont know which one we are really talking about...

Ill e back when im more comfortable with the situation

 

[MalcolmM]

who are we even talking about? lol.

 

[Chis]

Lucario is middle-heavyweight, so he'll be killed at around 130-140%, giving him already an advantage of aura.

What are you on? Sonic is heavier then Lucario.

 

[Jim Morrison]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546&highlight=weight

Lucario is a heavy middle character.

 

[Chis]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546&highlight=weight

Lucario is a heavy middle character.

Then excuse may wrongness. I meant no offence. :embarrass

 

[ShadowLink84]

Gf don't use that one you this one.
Its a bit more accurate.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

 

[Blistering Speed]

*sniff* I'm so proud of you guys ripping into Sagen for Bowser ignorance.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Sorry to bring Bowser up again but I've had some matches against my friend's Bowser now and I feel much more informed now. I personally think this match up is 55-45 Bowser. I could even go as far to say 60-40 Bowser. Sonic does not have an advantage here

I don't think people truly appreciate just how much of a pain Bowsers specials are. OoS Fortress is ridiculously good. It can answer a lot of things Sonic can do because of it's invinciblity frames. Grabs, jabs, spindashes, aerials...it's seriously irritating. Sonic's range pales in comparison to Bowser's. Spaced Bairs were the only thing that I wouldn't get OoS Fortressed for and spaced Bairs are crap in this match up anyway. I'm not saying Fortress is impossible to get around but if you don't sheild poke Bowser and you don't space really really well, you're going to be eating OoS Fortress
What's interesting is that a lot of Sonic's move will clank with the Fortress. I found a lot of Sonic's ground attacks (mainly jab and F Tilt) clank with Bowser's fortress when I wasn't right next to Bowser. When I was right next to him after whiffing an attack against his shield, it would get me everytime

Fire, his neutral B...it's actually a pain. Earlier I said spaced Bairs are crap in this match and this is why. Fire will stop nearly all of Sonic's direct approaches. The exception is a perfect arced grounded spin jump (not a vertical spin jump) or an aerial spinshot which allows you to jump right over Bowser and Bair him. Unfortunetly...this kind of projected so Bowser can stop using his fire to ready himself (his only option really though is shield and an OoS Fortress won't reach Sonic...I think)

Side B (Koopa Klaw) - I hate this move when I'm using Peach. I hate it even more when I'm using Sonic. It can grab Sonic out of a lot of things and can really screw up your edgeguarding since his Side B can grab you out of of your aerials. It sends you flying as well

Another bad thing is killing Bowser. He doesn't die very easily. If he momentum cancels and DI's properly, he should be living at around 140-150%. Actually landing a kill move on Bowser is also difficult. He outranges you so landing an F Smash is hard...D Smash is crap. Bairs...urgh, only if Bowser runs into them. Spaced Bairs don't work like I said so...yea

Perhaps I'm doing something wrong but...when recovering with Sonic against Bowser...it's like flinging yourself against a wall with only a few holes available for to go through to get to the other side. Spin shot is tragically bad - I got punished nearly every single time I tried to use it both for recovering and on stage simply because Bowser is far too big and his attacks are pretty huge too. Sonic is incredibly limited to what he can when recovering. All Bowser has to do is wait and punish Sonic as he's landing. Grabbing onto the ledge means you risk getting grabbed ---> air trip and because Bowser outranges Sonic...getting back up from the ledge is difficult. Recovering from down below sucks because Sonic doesn't auto snap onto the edge, giving Bowser a free smash (normally F Smash or D Smash, which is surprisingly hard to DI out of)

I haven't even started on his other attacks...his Tilts have huge range and hit hard. Jab might be slower than yours but it vastly outranges Sonic's attacks. F Smash is a horrible move that is ridiculously strong. Bowsers aerials are not to be underestimated as they outrange yours


Having said all that though, we are forgetting one imporant advantage we have in this match up

It's Bowser

Bowser is very big. Whilst this can create a few problems such as a large sheild (the whole of Sonic's Up Smash can be shielded :/) it also makes Bowser a very big target. Fair is a beautiful move in this match, despite me not liking it much. Up Smash is good when it lands and so is Up Tilt. If Bowser doesn't have much of his shield left, spindashes can go through below his shield and hit him (although Fortress can stop spindashes). Whilst Bowser outranges Sonic, Sonic is faster than Bowser. Provided I was close enough/had started them up, my aerials would often get this first hit in. Shielding Bowsers more laggy attacks such as F Tilt and the whole of Fortress (irritating to do) allowed me to punish Bowser with various grabs and the like

Gimping Bowser is not as easy as it sounds. You have to play smart. Bowser doesn't have many options since his recovery isn't great. The only thing he can do provided he's a decent height above the stage whilst off stage is Fair and air dodge. Bait a reaction and hit him (Bair is probably your best choice or a Dair if you get lucky and he DI's wrong)


Feel free to disagree but that's my take on things. I think the match up is around 55-45/60-40 in Bowsers favour. I know I've said a lot more things Bowser has over Sonic but Sonic outspeeds Bowser and if Sonic shields Bowsers more laggy attacks, Bowser is open for getting Faired/grabbed/whatever. The smartest player will normally win but I feel that Bowser has a lot more defensive tools to keep Sonic at bay and Sonic can have a hard time getting round them which is why I've put it in Bowsers favour

 

[Jim Morrison]

Bowsers will love you, Sonics less, I kind of... Disagree with 55:45/60:40. It's dead neutral, Sonic has better approaching game, Bowser has better defensive game, both won't get gimped, even though Sonic has a bit better recovery. Both have a good grab game, Bowser being better, but Sonic having easier time grabbing, Bowser has more range, but the good ranged moves aren't quite fast. Bowser lives longer, but Sonic will build more damage on Bowser than Bowser will on Sonic.
But really, I'm repeating myself, I've said this before already, we already have ended this discussion. Nice post Rick, but ur 2 slo.

 

[Trillion]

For Lucario, his smashes tend to **** me and his upsmash seems to kill me kinda early, as well as i get messed up by his forward b thing sometimes.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Mmm ok. 60-40 was an extremity anyway. Even is fine by me. I'll have to look at things a bit more closely next time

Lucario...I don't like fighting him. Learn to powershield in this match up. That's all I can really say

 

[ShadowLink84]

rickerdy you suck anyway so your input doesn't matter.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

rickerdy you suck anyway so your input doesn't matter.

Talk about p***ing on my barbecued steak bonfire

:/

Spoiler

Your just jealous because my main has bigger boobs than yours

Since you guys are on your last match up...will you be re doing match ups?

 

[da K.I.D.]

i suggest that we either:

1. start from the beginning and reevaluate all the matches in the same order. or

2. take votes on which characters to revisit.

cus theres no way that we can just leave this thread after we finish the last match.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'd say option 2.

And SL, try not to be a **** and contribute to matchups like Rick did, or just don't post at all.

 

[Chis]

I'd say option 2.

And SL, try not to be a **** and contribute like Rick did, or just don't post at all.

Irony.

Also 50:50 Lucario IIRC.

 

[Jim Morrison]

... You're telling me I don't contribute to matchups?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

wtf? You can't have 5:5 in someones favor lol

I say 6:4 Luccy. Somebody make an export.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Suppose I'll make the export.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Talk about p***ing on my barbecued steak bonfire

MWAHAHAHA THE GOLDEN SHOWER OF DOOM!

Spoiler

Your just jealous because my main has bigger boobs than yours

Just cause its true doesn't mean you have to say it T_T

Since you guys are on your last match up...will you be re doing match ups?

I would like to think so.

I'd say option 2.

And SL, try not to be a **** and contribute to matchups like Rick did, or just don't post at all.

I don't contribute to matchups?
Don't make me slap you with my 72 oz steak.

Grow a sense of humor.Its obvious I don't make such statements.

 

[Kinzer]

*Can't multi-task*

The reason I have Bowser still up is because some people might have joined in on the discussion late, does not mean you should be discouraged from talking about Lucario if you have something to get off your chest.

If you think we're done with Bowser, then let it die.

Talk about p***ing on my barbecued steak bonfire

:/

Spoiler

Your just jealous because my main has bigger boobs than yours

Since you guys are on your last match up...will you be re doing match ups?

I think Sonic is sexier than Peach.

BTW we'll probably just take a vote on matchups we should go over instead of a semi-random order.

1. start from the beginning and reevaluate all the matches in the same order. or

Doing that is boring, it's much more efficient to just go over matchups that matter more.

Because people will care wather Mario is a slight disadvantage and change it to neutral, than say somebody like Meta Knight who some can argue that Sonic is one of the better choices if not the best counterpick against Meta Knight and yet he still has a solid "disadvantage".

P.S., how unsafe is it for Lucario to get his Forward Smash shielded?

I think it mgiht be possible to get a FTilt tipper on him at worst.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Lucario's Fsmash has IASA frames and he can just do another.

 

[Kinzer]

Who would do another forward smash besides C-Stickin' n00bs? >.>

We're talking about tourney-going Lucarios here, but that's fine that my idea got debunked so I don't use it in the write-up.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I Fsmash you. You're Sonic and therefore fast on the ground. The idea of you trying to run in and punish isn't exactly far fetched is it?

 

[Kinzer]

FSmash probably has too much shieldstun and pushback for perhaps even an FTilt right next to Lucario to trade hits with best case scenario.

Something else...

If Lucarios start taking to the skies, start spamming Uair, for sure.

 

[phi1ny3]

Who would do another forward smash besides C-Stickin' n00bs? >.>

We're talking about tourney-going Lucarios here, but that's fine that my idea got debunked so I don't use it in the write-up.

You don't usually fsmash again, you usually do shield, spotdodge, ftilt, AS, or jab, although sometimes another one might come around.

P.S., how unsafe is it for Lucario to get his Forward Smash shielded?

I think it mgiht be possible to get a FTilt tipper on him at worst.

Don't bother, if you PS it, even if the fsmash is tipped, just drop shield to grab, iirc, because MK has the same option. fsmash has such redunkulous range, it's not often "outranged" by things. btw, if the lucario isn't trying to tip often with fsmash, he's not using it right, and if he doesn't tip with it, punish with shield grab before it's lingering hitboxes push you away. Query: does sonic ftilt have more range than marth fsmash? Because lucario's fsmash pushes a shielding character, making it decently safe on block, and has more range than marth's fsmash.

FSmash probably has too much shieldstun and pushback for perhaps even an FTilt right next to Lucario to trade hits with best case scenario.

Something else...

If Lucarios start taking to the skies, start spamming Uair, for sure.

*punishes with lucario dair* why? Lucario's dair comes out in 5 frames, has a ginormous hitbox (as in can outspace bowser upB hitbox), and punishes with good damage even at low %s. If you uair, you'll prolly want to punish, not spam, lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

thedisjoint on Sonic's Uair is enough so that if w trade hits, you'll be on the worst end of it since we'll usually have the second strike out during the first hit of your Dair.
*shrug*
I still wouldn't advise it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Frankly, I wish all boards had two things:
-Frame data
-although this is asking for a little too much, hitbox range.
I could've sworn that prepping a uair means that it's "telegraphed"? Unless you spinshot it, I don't see it consistent enough of an option to punish lucario's aerial game easily enough to say "spam uair". When does uair come out on?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Here's the hitboxes
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211629

The frames are in the Sonic guide.

 

[Kinzer]

Uair is just that freaking good.

And when I said Spam, I meant use it right, but use it more than any of your other aerials.

It has the range and the speed to do it, so don't go complaining to me when you get Dair-Stomped by a Lucario and you could've saved yourself by doing moar Uairs! :D

 

[ShadowLink84]

Frankly, I wish all boards had two things:
-Frame data
-although this is asking for a little too much, hitbox range.
I could've sworn that prepping a uair means that it's "telegraphed"? Unless you spinshot it, I don't see it consistent enough of an option to punish lucario's aerial game easily enough to say "spam uair". When does uair come out on?

First hit comes out on frame 5 and is disjointed. It can blow up bombs on green greens without Sonic getting hurt.

 

[Browny]

btw im inclined to believe sonics uair operates the same as kirbys bair, in which his feet are invincible. either that, or sonics hurtbox does not extend with his legs at all.

Dont try to punish lucario fsmash with anything other than a dash attack or MAYBE an SH fair. phil do you have the - frame advantage on fsmash? I know a dash grab doesnt work, but maybe a shiled cancelled one will :/

 

[ShadowLink84]

shield canceled dash grab doesn't work either. I've tried that many times and I never get to Lucario in time to grab him. Maybe if you powershield it.

 

[tedward2000]

Ima take a shot at this, but ima say its in lucario's favor. Stages will narrow or widen that favor, but out of current allowed stages nothing under 50:50.

As for beating lucario's aerial game, I say good luck to that. Sonic's Up-air will even the odds, Yes. However that primarily about it.

Lucario's movement is a defensive set. Its to push you back, and keep you away. Sonic's is to run up(literally) and poke and jab. Thats a bit of a problem if lucario can't hit Sonic, and Sonic can't touch lucario.

Also. A lucario over %130 needs to die, and fast. The aura boost is a double-edged sword for cario and a pain in the arse for everyone else.

Aura sphere is slow, your-to-slow slow, but when supah charged and with aura boost added to it, its hitbox is huge and can kill. It's a Swiss army Bus, and it cuts a linear gap in ones recovery. Air dodge and recover, you can't clink with a charged AS in the air, let alone on the ground (then you would want to shield or PS it)

Aura doesn't clink, but lucairo's paws can.

Keep to hit and run tactics, cause like said, if your to close you gonna get grabbed or worse.
Its a long match either way.
-t2

 

[Kinzer]

We can also has Bair, but I like the idea that I can decay my Uair and make it all the more easier to chain it on itself more than say I would want to weaken my 3rd best killing move, which especially for Lucario I will want to eliminate by any means necessary.

So before I forget, what stages are good/bad to take Lucario to? I heard Yoshi's Island is the worst neutral to CP, and places with small blastzones will shorten Lucario's lifespan and keep him at a weaker state.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i suggest that we either:

1. start from the beginning and reevaluate all the matches in the same order. or

2. take votes on which characters to revisit.

cus theres no way that we can just leave this thread after we finish the last match.

i suggest number 2 because that way we can be sure to get the oldest matchups recovered first.

And SL, try not to be a **** and contribute to matchups like Rick did, or just don't post at all.

at least im not the only one saying this now.

I think Sonic is sexier than Peach.

P.S., how unsafe is it for Lucario to get his Forward Smash shielded?

I think it mgiht be possible to get a FTilt tipper on him at worst.

Lucario's Fsmash has IASA frames and he can just do another.

not really.
I play lucario and my old teams partner mained him. I definitely know this match.
If lucario double f smashes, you can punish with just about anything as long as its fast. dash grab, dash attack, fair...
but if the lucario follows a shielded f smash with jab or spotdodge, you can him hit with anything. not even a instant dash attack out of shield with hit him. at the very best you can clank with his jab, which will reset both players and if you are expecting that, you can have a f tilt ready.

thedisjoint on Sonic's Uair is enough so that if w trade hits, you'll be on the worst end of it since we'll usually have the second strike out during the first hit of your Dair.
*shrug*
I still wouldn't advise it.

this is why you cant just ignore everything somebody says. Everybody can get it right once in a while...

first of all, a perfectly spaced up air from sonic, will beat a perfectly spaced down air from lucario. BUT that perfect spacing will almost NEVER HAPPEN. first of all, lucs down air, is a five frame, Huge Lingering hitbox. In order to beat it, you have to space an up air to hit with the second hit, (frame 13/15 i believe.) with an attack that doesnt linger at all.

So all in all for all intents and purposes, lucarios down air beats sonics up air, its better off not to try to beat his down air with anything, unless you are a masochist.

A MUCH MUCH better idea is to act like you are going to act from under him (if hes in the air, either run all the way under him or short hop under his down air range) and bait the down air, so as to give yourself a pretty large, defenseless stationary target to hit with either n, f, or b air.

anyways...

55-45 lucario.
lucario is harder to gimp in the hands of a good player, and therefore, he will get a lot of aura boost and it can be hard to kill him.

I see the matchup being very even, with both characters hitting 150% multiple times, but lucs. aura boost will a lot of the time get him the stock kill before you. and dont be surprised in that happens every stock.

also, from what I remember, frigate is lucarios best stage. Is that still the case?

if you can, CP to GG or corneria. if you cant... maybe delfino? or PS1?

 

[Kinzer]

I don't have to impersonate somebody else to tell you that is true.

Besides that, even Martha looks more womanly than Peach, you can't even tell the difference sometimes... and with Peach... wait a second... doesn't Peach have like, what? A *insert some kind of letter that goes before "A" here* bra size?

C'mon KID, don't make me link a pic of Zero Suit to tell you what *should be and is* sexier than Peach.

P.S. it has been proven I am a masochist, and if you see Lucario hanging a little bit above the ground, you should expect Dair-stomps and be shielding/retreating so your shield doesn't die down. Where else can Lucario use Dair... oh that's right, higher up where you have much more space to work it, and that means you'll be hitting anybody out of anything (except for that fat penguin with the freakishly long Dair). Nothing is safe from Sonic's long, disjointed legs, except for maybe when they trade hits from the first horizontal hitbox... Regardless, you should be using Bair for THAT purpose.

Ever I agree with this too:

"A MUCH MUCH better idea is to act like you are going to act from under him (if hes in the air, either run all the way under him or short hop under his down air range) and bait the down air, so as to give yourself a pretty large, defenseless stationary target to hit with either n, f, or b air."

Also I recommand if you're going to chase Lucario into the ceiling blastzone, expect a Dair, because nothing else he has is going to protect him from under him... that would be humiliating if you got yourself killed for trying to get him.

So just how mobile is Lucario in the air... I'm talking about top speed and acceleration... I get the feeling Lucario can turn in the air better but is a little bit slower in terms of top speed (well Duh, Sonic is only the 6th fastest aerial character in the game).

 

[phi1ny3]

not really.
I play lucario and my old teams partner mained him. I definitely know this match.
If lucario double f smashes, you can punish with just about anything as long as its fast. dash grab, dash attack, fair...
but if the lucario follows a shielded f smash with jab or spotdodge, you can him hit with anything. not even a instant dash attack out of shield with hit him. at the very best you can clank with his jab, which will reset both players and if you are expecting that, you can have a f tilt ready.



this is why you cant just ignore everything somebody says. Everybody can get it right once in a while...

first of all, a perfectly spaced up air from sonic, will beat a perfectly spaced down air from lucario. BUT that perfect spacing will almost NEVER HAPPEN. first of all, lucs down air, is a five frame, Huge Lingering hitbox. In order to beat it, you have to space an up air to hit with the second hit, (frame 13/15 i believe.) with an attack that doesnt linger at all.

So all in all for all intents and purposes, lucarios down air beats sonics up air, its better off not to try to beat his down air with anything, unless you are a masochist.

A MUCH MUCH better idea is to act like you are going to act from under him (if hes in the air, either run all the way under him or short hop under his down air range) and bait the down air, so as to give yourself a pretty large, defenseless stationary target to hit with either n, f, or b air.

anyways...

55-45 lucario.
lucario is harder to gimp in the hands of a good player, and therefore, he will get a lot of aura boost and it can be hard to kill him.

I see the matchup being very even, with both characters hitting 150% multiple times, but lucs. aura boost will a lot of the time get him the stock kill before you. and dont be surprised in that happens every stock.

also, from what I remember, frigate is lucarios best stage. Is that still the case?

if you can, CP to GG or corneria. if you cant... maybe delfino? or PS1?

I can see why sonics would suggest uair, with it's strong priority, but like he said, baiting it is going to do you a whole lot more good than raw trying to trash it. Luckily, the aerials sonic can do after certain attacks give you a good window, just be careful.

Oh, and on stages, you are pretty much right, except delphino is alright for lucario (although I bet it's one of sonic's good stages), and PS1 is actually sometimes a CP for lucario.

On lucario's air mobility, It's pretty decent, considering dair stops movement, it allows juggling attempts to whiff and allow lucario to get to the ground. Also that his fair has good arc and range, comes out decently quick (frame 7), and strings, if not combos (see below for conditions), nair at low percents can also continue string since autocancel and it's secondary weak hitbox is what is taken advantage of. We consider lucario more air oriented, but he has enough of a ground game to stay solid and very good, most of his moves on the ground tend to lean towards defensive. Query: does sonic have a really fast aerial (like two frame fast) that he can do in response to strings? Our fair strings pretty much combo anyone who doesn't have a muscular upB move (like Marth's or Bowsers with invincibility frames at frame 1), or nairs that come out on frame 2 (like peach).