Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Chis]

I've tested a lot of stuff...if you want me to check out anything else Bowser related, just let me know.

Jab:
1st jab total: 20
1st jab hits on frame 6
1st jab shield hit lag: 7
1st jab shield stun: 7
1st jab advantage: -14
2nd jab hits as early as frame 19 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
Linking to 2nd jab advantage: -12 (opponent has 12 frames b/t shield stun and 2nd jab hit box)
Both jabs total: 36 minimum (assuming fastest possible 2nd jab)
2nd jab shield hit lag: 7
2nd jab shield stun: 7
2nd jab advantage: -17

Ftilt:
Total: 37
First hits on frame 10
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 12
Advantage: -24

Utilt:
Total: 50
First hits on frame 8 – 13 at least
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -35 (assuming it hits the shield on frame 11 which is typical)



Usmash:
Total: 51
1st hit first hits on frame 16
1st hit shield hit lag: 13
1st hit shield stun: 20
1st hit only advantage: -28
Linking to 2nd hit advantage (probably never happens): -7
2nd hit first hits on frame 31
2nd hit shield hit lag: 9
2nd hit shield stun: 13
2nd hit advantage: -16

Fair:
Total: 41
First hits on frame 8 – 10 at least
Landing lag: 24 (auto cancel after frame 36 at latest)
Shield hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -20

Uair:
Total: 44
First hits on frame 16 – 19 at least
Landing lag: 28
Shield hit lag: 11
Shield stun: 17
Advantage: -22

Neutral-B:
First hits on frame 23

Grounded Side-B:
Total: 37
First grabs on frame 8

Standing Grab:
Total: 39
First grabs on frame 9 – 10

Up-B:
First hits on frame 6 (can hit on frame 6 if timed perfectly from shield)
Invincible frames 1 – 5 (no vulnerability if timed perfectly from shield)

His jab is not fast.

 

[Kinzer]

Frame data if measured accurately does not lie.

Wather you think it is slow or not doesn't matter, it's as fast as the game designers made it.

Some people think Ike is fast...

...For a heavy weight.

The same opposite can be said for Sonic, how he is fast...lol?

 

[Bowser King]

Yes, but it's range is pretty huge. It may not be fast (seeing how the word fast is only related to MK and a few others these days...) but it's a powerful, quick move with good range.

-Bowser King

 

[Jim Morrison]

6 frames isn't slow... I doubt you can see 6 frames when playing Brawl...

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

It's not the fastest of jabs but it's still pretty fast. Don't forget it has very good range (same range as his F Tilt I think?)

 

[Chis]

All jabs are meant to look fast >_>

The average jab comes out on frame 3. Bowsers jab is slower than average.

His jab is slow. For a jab.

 

[MalcolmM]

a fast jab would b ZSS frame 1 jab or falcos frame 2 jab. frame 6 is by no means a fast jab. just saying.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't mean it compared to others, but to the rest of Bowsers moves. 6 Frames is good for Bowser.
And it's also quite strong jab.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Back. **** son, you Sonic's post so fast. Lol at Bowser King QFTing me twice <3

We've all come round to my thinking of 60:40? I suppose I can settle for 55:45.

*Edit* Bowsers jab is complete ****. Huge range, good damage (10% for the double hit, the second is guaranteed) and since when is frame 6 slow lol? Maybe relatively if you compare it to the fastest attack in the game (lol reference to ZSS), but that's one tenth of a second! Human reaction is on average 8 frames.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I say 60:40 Sonic advantage, from own expierence :O

 

[Chis]

I don't mean it compared to others, but to the rest of Bowsers moves. 6 Frames is good for Bowser.
And it's also quite strong jab.

Of course it's fast for Bowser, what character's jab is slower then their tilts/smashes?

I what to talk about how well Sonic can punish Bowser though, and how Bowser's size makes him susceptible to things like the ASC.

Jab:
1st jab total: 20
1st jab hits on frame 6
1st jab advantage: -14
2nd jab hits as early as frame 19 (counting frame 1 as first frame of 1st jab)
Linking to 2nd jab advantage: -12 (opponent has 12 frames b/t shield stun and 2nd jab hit box)
Both jabs total: 36 minimum (assuming fastest possible 2nd jab)
2nd jab advantage: -17

Ftilt:
Total: 37
First hits on frame 10
Advantage: -24

Utilt:
Total: 50
First hits on frame 8 – 13 at least
Advantage: -35 (assuming it hits the shield on frame 11 which is typical)

Usmash:
Total: 51
1st hit first hits on frame 16

Uair:
Total: 44
First hits on frame 16 – 19 at least
Landing lag: 28
Advantage: -22

Neutral-B:
First hits on frame 23


Standing Grab:
Total: 39
First grabs on frame 9 – 10

Up-B:
First hits on frame 6 (can hit on frame 6 if timed perfectly from shield)
Invincible frames 1 – 5 (no vulnerability if timed perfectly from shield)

 

[Jim Morrison]

ASC > Bowser.

 

[da K.I.D.]

he also cant hit our shield either, because anytime sonic shields any attack from bowser, bowser should be eating a SH up air to the face. and that can set up for some interesting followups.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Fortress > Sonic. But I digress, this is why I dislike debating Bowser's matchups, people are stubborn to some ******** pre Brawl fixed ideal. Hell, put him at 70:30 your advantage, he's big and slow and just spams D Smash right? And you can probably get 60% off a single grab on him (lolKID).

 

[Chis]

BS, frame data from the Bowser boards don't lie. There are moves to punish. Fact. He IS big. Fact.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I play both Bowser and Sonic, and I know who can do what. I know Fortress is a good move, just not as good in this matchup as usual. Sonic can actually punish it *wut*, ASC is just way harder for Bowser, because, wether you like it or not, ASC comboes into stuff, not just the holy combo of 50%, but also just ASC hits > DJ > U-air for 29%. A grab won't get in 60%, KID either played a bad Bowser, one who wasn't paying attention or he made it up (not doubting KID, I'll say the 2nd one).
I'll swing anywhere between 55:45 - 60:40. Sonic just has speed, stupid moves that make you go BARR, aerial domination, ASC *woot* and a great recovery.
Bowser has Fortress (less useful here, but still great), huge weight, which is good against Sonic, you can live up to 200% if you have decent DI and shielding abilities. He also has a Chaingrab, but I don't think that is a minor factor here, since grabs won't happen often, because of Bowsers poor grab range and Sonics speed.
Also Bowsers D-tilt sucks, so he can't camp it

Start bashing.

 

[Chis]

F And you can probably get 60% off a single grab on him (lolKID).

That's no joke. Sonic has great grab follow ups, but that's usually player dependent. I don't know what that has got to do with the match up unless he has limited options, a slow areal speed, or something.

Also how does Bowser deal with pressure?

 

[da K.I.D.]

the part where I pulled a bowser up to 60 from a grab was true, but it did require a lot of mindgames, and I do believe it was his first experience with the KID CG. not saying that will happen every time, but sonic can do some crazy stuff off of a grab and it shouldnt be over looked, not ot mention that sonic has a hard to perform CG on bowser as well

bowser has up b and side b out of shield, so hes great at dealing with pressure

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sorry KID, mindgames don't count in matchups .
However, you are right that Sonics grabs factor here. They limit your opponents dramatically, and with a bit of reading skills you can do the right followups.

 

[Chis]

not ot mention that sonic has a hard to perform CG on bowser as well

?

Sorry KID, mindgames don't count in matchups .

If the character is more susceptible to them,
-Limited options
-Poor aerial speed
-Blind spot (underneath them)

Then it should be factored IMO.

 

[Jim Morrison]

You didn't read my whole post did you?...

 

[Chis]

I did Gf2tw. What's your point?

I think you should read my post again.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if people refuse to learn sonics true grabbing capabilities than im not going to tell.

also, with the exception of side b, bowser seems really weak in the air

 

[JayBee]

Sorry KID, mindgames don't count in matchups .
However, you are right that Sonics grabs factor here. They limit your opponents dramatically, and with a bit of reading skills you can do the right followups.

what if we consider what occurs from the situation as something along the lines of, "sonic's ability to rack damage from low percentages from one throw on heavies?" that can be considered, right? Sonic gets easy damgae imo in those situations. then Up Smash and Dsmash comes into play, opponent gets racked up to high % before sonic takes a blow, theoretically...


bowsers main air game is fair and side B. not too complex. good, but simple to understand. but ill say it again, characters whose air game is repeated useage of SH aerials especially heavies, are highly suseptable to Hypen Smash due to thier size. then your talking about a sitaution where its unsafe to rely on that, which leans the bowser more towards the tilts jabs and Fortress punish idea. most likely they wont be chasing sonic all over, and we know his jabs, though good, aren't that fast, so its a matter of sonic controlling the floor, and forcing his bait/punish game on a defensive grounded bowser IMHO.

that said, I don't think sonic completely ***** bowser because he is so heavy, and that endurnce give bowser the chance to land those 3 hits to even up the damage that sonic may have racked, especially when sonic is trying for the KO

 

[Jim Morrison]

that's not mindgames though, that's limiting their options to ones you can all punish.

Lulz I have no ****ing clue what I'm talking about.

 

[B!squick]

Lol at people thinking 6 frames is slow. That is all.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lol at people thinking 6 frames is slow. That is all.

Its being said that it is slow for a jab. Not that a 6 frame move is slow in itself.

 

[Chis]

Lol at people thinking 6 frames is slow. That is all.

All jabs are meant to look fast >_>

The average jab comes out on frame 3. Bowsers jab is slower than average.

His jab is slow. For a jab.

The quote. Yeah.

Edit: Darn it SL.

 

[Tenki]

If the character is more susceptible to them,
-Limited options
-Poor aerial speed
-Blind spot (underneath them)

Then it should be factored IMO.

What KID was talking about was his "CG" (the U-throw > airdodge/attack punishment regrab > U-throw > ... > U-throw > F-throw chain), which is almost completely between players.



-===================-

Fortress has invincibility frames. Not through the whole move of course, so it would depend on when and what is used. I don't have a way to reliably test

Sonic can do this thing on certain stages called an invincible spindash roll (iSDR for short).

It eats/ goes through like, anything.

Or at least, that's what you'd think.

However, it isn't unstoppable because of the game mechanic of clanging attacks - specifically between two grounded moves.

If Bowser's up-B doesn't have transcendent priority and you're using a grounded one (presumably what you'd use OoS, no?) then it can clang with moves that do similar damage to it.

Anyway, this whole clang business is only if you miss Fortress, which you generally shouldn't do since you do it out of shield, correct?

Fortress > Sonic. But I digress, this is why I dislike debating Bowser's matchups, people are stubborn to some ******** pre Brawl fixed ideal. Hell, put him at 70:30 your advantage, he's big and slow and just spams D Smash right? And you can probably get 60% off a single grab on him (lolKID).

Okay. So correct me if I'm wrong, but by Fortress > Sonic, you obviously are talking about Fortress OoS, yes?

For an OoS move to land, the character in question is in some sort of low-mobility state, usually dead time, or mid-move commitment time, as is the case with things like MK's SH aerials or Sonic's SH aerials (dear Sonics: SH out of run cannot really retreat, lol.)

So please take and complete this situation:
- Sonic uses a side-B hop on Bowser (meaning he's either in or just outside of Bowser's jab range) and makes contact with shield.

Bowser uses... ??

 

[Jim Morrison]

Fortress, Sonic will get hit. Fortress is 2 fast 4 Sonic!?!?!?!?!??

It starts at frame 6 when used OoS.

 

[B!squick]

The quote. Yeah.

Edit: Darn it SL.

Okay, because the way I reading it it seemed like you were saying it was slow period. But anyway.


Okay, let's review, on Bowser's end:

Bowser=
-Big and slow (duh)
-Aerials are sub par and has that nasty blind spot beneath him
-Somewhat laggy moves which seem all the more laggy compared to Sonic

BUT=
-His shield is huge
-His options out of that shield are many
-His range beats out Sonic
-Klaw Hopping makes the aerials pretty good, but due to the blind spot this probably wont be used much.
-Fortress; It's pretty ****, it damages, and it even KOs at high percents.
-Bowser Bombing (DownB) to the ledge quickly gets Bowser back on the ground where he likes to be and can be a nasty edge guard


This is Bowser in a nutshell, feel free to correct me on anything though.

Now, what's this about mind games? Someone's mental game varies greatly between person to person and should never have any relevance in any match up, ever. If you include that then what about other variables? If, say, I had lots of money and payed every Sonic player to lose I could claim Bowser to be better in the match up. How would that be any different then a Sonic player winning with uber mind games claiming Sonic to be the better?

More over, match ups assume the players to be of equal skill. The only variable is the character. Wouldn't mind games be apart of said skill, thus not being a factor?

But, whatever, takes it how you wants it. I say the match up is equal +/- 10, no more, no less.

 

[Chis]

What KID was talking about was his "CG" (the U-throw > airdodge/attack punishment regrab > U-throw > ... > U-throw > F-throw chain), which is almost completely between players.

I know, but if they have a noticeable blind spot or something ( Marth/Rob) then it should be realised. IMO.

 

[MrEh]

Doesn't Sonic's tilts clang with fortress, and B-air beat it, if you can bait it out somehow?

During the startup frames of the attack, the Fortress pretty much beats everything because of the invincibility frames. After those frames are gone though, tilts and Bairs should clank with the hitbox. After the hitbox disapears, tilts and Bairs beat it, since he's pretty much a spinning hurtbox by that point. ^^

also, with the exception of side b, bowser seems really weak in the air

Bowser's side B is stupidlty disjointed. It will beat out all of Sonic's aerials except for a perfectly spaced Bair. Since it's a grab, it takes priority over almost everything that isn't more disjointed then itself. ^^

Anyway, this whole clang business is only if you miss Fortress, which you generally shouldn't do since you do it out of shield, correct?

This is correct. Fortress should only be used OoS or if you love Fortresshogging. So yes, it will probably clank with the Spin Dash. Fortress is generally unpunishable as long as the Bowser player uses it intelligently. However, the Fortress can be baited, and its lag can be exploited. (Unless the Bowser knows how to Fortresshog. In that case, there's nothing anyone can do to punish that. ><)

If I know that the Fortress isn't fast enough to punish a certain attack OoS, I won't do it. If you attack my shield and you're out of Fortress range, I'll usually do something else. Jabs or Klaws work well as punishing moves to strike opponnents OoS that the Fortress cannot normally reach.

So please take and complete this situation:
- Sonic uses a side-B hop on Bowser (meaning he's either in or just outside of Bowser's jab range) and makes contact with shield.

Bowser uses... ??

The anser to this is obvious.

He uses an OoS Dtaunt. ^^

 

[Blistering Speed]

For the record, when I said Fortress > Sonic it was merely a mimic response to Gf2tw saying ASC > Bowser.

MrEh's got this, I'm tired lol, though I still stand by my 60:40.

An outline of the actual match (no theorycraft bs):
- Bowser will live commonly up to around 170%, Sonic will live till around 110%, though this number can drastically fluctuate if Bowser happens to get any smash off before then.
- Sonic doesn't have any safe approaches, Bowser can straight jab or F Tilt against any except for perhaps SH U Air or perfectly spaced B Air. Bowser's will Side B through any attempts at running grab or shield. This means Sonic must rely on fakeouts, which isn't the strongest stance.
- Bowser and Sonic both have mediocre grab range (Bowser's isn't particulary, people just assume bigger because of his size), but Sonic's I'm assuming is quicker and he can of course punish better with them because of his running speed. This is however counteracted by the fact that Sonic's grabs are dependant on mindgames and Bowser has stronger, reliable options from grab.
- Bowser won't be gimping Sonic. Maybe he'll get off an intercepting B Air or F Air occasionally but even then Sonic will still recover. Sonic however has much difficulty gimping Bowser too thanks to Fortress' invinciblity frames and large priority. Sonic can punish Bowser's recovery with most likely an aerial if he instant edgehogs and forces Bowser to the stage, but that's the extent of it.
- Bowser will rack damage generally from defending against Sonic's approach options, though he can go on a measured offensive. Sonic will rack his damage from getting inside and punish the Bowser when the Bowser makes a mistake.

I've missed some stuff out most likely but I'd said thats the half of it, I'll update when I'm not so tired.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Meh, 55:45 Sonic advantage is mah number.

Then again, 55:45 is neutral, so it's basicly the same as saying 50:50.

 

[Bowser King]

MrEh's got this, I'm tired lol, though I still stand by my 60:40.

In who's advantage?

Definitely not 60:40 Sonic


-Bowser King

 

[Blistering Speed]

Haha, I meant 60:40 Bowser, though as previously stated I could stretch to 55:45 Bowser.

 

[Kinzer]

- Sonic doesn't have any safe approaches, Bowser can straight jab or F Tilt against any except for perhaps SH U Air or perfectly spaced B Air. Bowser's will Side B through any attempts at running grab or shield. This means Sonic must rely on fakeouts, which isn't the strongest stance.
- Bowser and Sonic both have mediocre grab range (Bowser's isn't particulary, people just assume bigger because of his size), but Sonic's I'm assuming is quicker and he can of course punish better with them because of his running speed. This is however counteracted by the fact that Sonic's grabs are dependant on mindgames and Bowser has stronger, reliable options from grab.
- Bowser will rack damage generally from defending against Sonic's approach options, though he can go on a measured offensive. Sonic will rack his damage from getting inside and punish the Bowser when the Bowser makes a mistake.

I've missed some stuff out most likely but I'd said thats the half of it, I'll update when I'm not so tired.

Haha, I meant 60:40 Bowser, though as previously stated I could stretch to 55:45 Bowser.

We have fakeouts, because it's settled that approaching without making you mess up will end up in jabs/Fortress OoS, but it's ratehr his best method in this field.

well it could also just be the fact that for a grab, Sonic's is very short, and trying to go in for a grab will result in the above scenario again. Does not mean they're mindgame dependent or Bowser has a better grab game, it just means applying mindgames makes the grabs easier to get off if not with Bowser the only way too... and AFAIK Bowser just has throws that send people flying away but not far enough to kill.

And~~~~~~

The way I see it, it can go either way, Bowser may have more tools to work with, but Sonic can break some of them and rust a coupel of others... meaning you better use use what you have in your arsenal correctly, or we will do some pretty nasty stuff.

It's not like say G&W who just has solid answers to Sonic, it's do (and be logical about it still) or die (perhaps literally) for either character.

I say that it's 50:50, and I will out it down as so because the community consensus is the same thing, so I will put it down as that just to satisfy a bigger majority of people

P.S. people are right, a 6 frame jab is slow when you think about a jab and compare it to other attacks, but when looked at from a different perspective, it's still a fast attack, and one of Bowser's fastest attacks.

 

[Chis]

If you want numbers from me, it's around 55:45 Sonic.

 

[Bowser King]

P.S. people are right, a 6 frame jab is slow when you think about a jab and compare it to other attacks, but when looked at from a different perspective, it's still a fast attack, and one of Bowser's fastest attacks.

Exactly.

Does it really matter if it's slow for a jab? It's still fast either way and there's nothing you can say that counters that.


FACT= Jab is strong, has good range, good to use against approaches and is relatively fast for a MOVE.

EDIT: IMO. it's 55-45 bowser but I'd be fine with 50-50 (though I'm leaning strongly for the 1st).

-Bowser King