Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[da K.I.D.]

right, it may be overstated and overemphasised, which is true for both characters being discussed, but its not misinformation.

 

[Kinzer]

*Sigh* Hyprocrisy fail. You ***** and moan about Sonic's common misconceptions and then do the exact same to a different character.

Sorry if what I said is true, and yes I know Bowser is not Ganon slow, but he ain't Meta Knight fast.

QFT (that's twice now >_> <_<)

Bowser is nowhere near as slow as the other heavyweights. Also, bowser doesn't really need the speed (only really handy against projectile spammers, which sonic isn't and even then there's other way's around it).

-Bowser King

It would be nice though, if he did, wouldn't it though?

The fact remains that sonic has terrible priority and kill power compared to the likes of Bowser.

See what I did there?

Your using a misconception that most bowser player's KNOW and try to get around. It's also a very poor misconception.

-Bowser King

Yep! Too bad that's actually true, and I admit Sonic could have a little bit more range on his attacks... oh well.

also to the person bagging on kinzer.
all he said was that bowser is fat. which is fact
that he gets screwed by a stupid game mechanic. also fact
and that he is slow. which is fact as well.

you may say that hes not as slow as some of the other heavies, but the fact still remains that compared to all the other characters in the game, (including the likes of MK, Fox, squirtle, CF and sonic) bowser is still slower than most.

and to the person that was debating me about grabs.

You underestimate sonics throws, Ive taken bowsers from 0-60+ from one grab, but i do see your point and I was also underestimating bowsers grab game, my bad on that one. Sonics is good but a grab from sonic never leads into a 100% guaranteed kill until 190%+ bowsers grab game is definitely better, but sonics is nothing to scoff at either

I can look out for myself (I had to go grab lunch, which is why I didn't respond), but thanks for the back-up Kid.

Remember good people who want to get better have to realise what weaknesses their character has... just because I don't main a character, doesn't mean I don't know whta ruins them *cough D3 cough.*

*Goes to read some of the other posts that weren't directed at making me look stupid.*

*Still has to look up peeve on Dictionary.com.*

 

[da K.I.D.]

I can look out for myself (I had to go grab lunch, which is why I didn't respond), but thanks for the back-up Kid.

ohhhh.... my little boy is turning into a man.

*teary eyes*

 

[Trillion]

Yeah I think that it could probably kill Sonic if the attack is done when Sonic is AT 60%.

There's no denying its god awful speed, first hitting at frame 26, second hit at frame 28. However, what it lacks in speed it makes up for in everything else. This move is hugely powerful, doing 33% for both hits uncharged and with knockback that'll kill most of the cast around 80%. Yes, the move does have two hits (1st hit 10%, 2nd hit 23%) but they link into each other very easily with appropriate spacing.

If Sonic started at 60% andt hen took 33% = 93% then Sonic would probably die. Not for sure on that though. It's likely to happen, but its something we have to look out for. Also, I've been KOed by the up air at some incredibly low percents and KOed by the upsmash at 80%.

 

[Kinzer]

LOL!

Sorry Kid, I didn't mean that in any offensive way, I appreciate your help, but I want to be able to look out for myself instead of depending on other people to baby me.

I would be playing Meta Knight if I wanted an easy way out.

 

[Bowser King]

If Bowser players "know and try to get around" it, then it's not a misconception.

I haven't checked it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bowser's forward smash can kill sonic at 60% when he hits with both hitboxes (unless that isn't in brawl anymore).

Again, the same can be said for sonic.
Also, it IS a misconception because it's used in almost EVERY match-up discussion.

Bowser's big and slow. We all know that. Does that make a match-up go from [EXAMPLE] 60-40 to 45-55 [/EXAMPLE]???

That argument is easily countered because bowser doesn't rely a lot on his speed. A lot of the time he's going to be playing defensive.

If you watched this week's smash podcast, sliq said that ^b is one of the few things boozer has on D3. ^B=defensive for the most part.

I'll take him being big as a legit argument but it's nothing ground breaking because bowser has somuch he can do to help out his big size.

Anyway, SL, read your old post. You CLEARLY said it wouldn't be a factor in the discussion.

EDIT: Saw kinzer's post.

Yes, it would be nice if he was faster. Is it needed? Not really.

-Bowser King

 

[Kinzer]

Well, he is big and kind of slow... but at least we aren't pulling 65:35 on you.

It's just something that can be taken advantage of, no matter what you do (unless you play some kind of Brawl+ where you shrink Bowser's hitbox down to the point like Sonic gets in his USmash).

 

[Sesshomuronay]

@randomnote:
So, Sonic's F-smash outprioritizes Wolf's up-B. It's a rather trivial fact that I picked up playing some Wolf people on wifi. However, I'm going to go ahead and extend it to B-air.
I haven't seen or performed it myself, but I'm going to assume that Sonic can B-air Wolf into or away from the stage if he has to use up-B from below. If not, go ahead and debunk me.

But either way, Wolf should very much avoid getting grabbed from ledge actions, especially things like ledgehopped aerials. Pummel-releases off the edge are evil setups, but they're even more evil if we can grab you out of your double jump.

If a wolf actually uses up-B offensively then hes not very good. Wolfs up-b is sooo bad its ridiculous. It doesnt really matter if your F-smash outprioritizes it cuz a good wolf will never use it except for recovery.



Wolf outspaces and kills sonic earlier than sonic kills wolf. Plus wolf has a really good projectile that beats spindash. Oh and D-smash/reflector also beat spindash. Wolfs reflector can be used as an escape from any weird combo like things sonic could do as it gives him momentary invincibility. Sonic has his fast movement speed and a better recovery but not much else over wolf.

60-40 or 55-45 wolfs favor IMO.

Oh wait I didnt notice you guys were doing bowser sorry bout that. ignore this I was linked to an older page so whateva.

 

[Bowser King]

Well, he is big and kind of slow... but at least we aren't pulling 65:35 on you.

It's just something that can be taken advantage of, no matter what you do (unless you play some kind of Brawl+ where you shrink Bowser's hitbox down to the point like Sonic gets in his USmash).

I agree that it does have SOMETHING to do with the matchup but it play's a pretty minor role.

It plays a role in basically every matchup bowsers in. Though, for the most part, it doesn't come as helpful as people make it.

We can use ^b, fire (not as much in this matchup), shield (Which is huge) to help out the problem of our size.

-Bowser King

 

[Trillion]

This is NOT a misconception though. Bowser IS big and slow. It IS a misconception to think that the problem will be the deciding factor in the matchup. I think this distinction needs to be drawn because I think we all agree on this in the way that I just worded it.

That said, I do believe that Bowser's large size is a factor of a match up to some degree. He is a larger target for attacks. A good Bowser WILL play defensive to minimize the effect that this factor has on the match, but I don't believe that the problem can be completely eliminated. Also, Bowser's size, and here I am referring to how his size influences the size of his hitboxes, makes a difference on certain stage. I have played Bowser on Yoshi Island (brawl) and when the shy guys fly in, my opponent was in the middle of trying to land an aerial and he ended up in hitstun that stalled him for a few frames that caused the attack to miss. This is significant on a fast character like Sonic. The same things can work in reverse when a large character's giant hitboxes get caught on hurtboxes that belong to the stage and cause the hitbox to remain active longer than normal causing Sonic or any other opponent to get hit when they might not have otherwise. This is why I believe Bowser's large size does factor in.

 

[Kinzer]

I heard you can SDI into Wolf to avoid the last hit of his Up-B.

It really only should be used to recover at those angles Side-B won't cover.

Edit: Alright then Boozer King, I'll make sure to only make a minor note of it in the write-up, I'm a man of reason and I can see that for Sonic, it is only a minor thing going for him... after all, our stuff likes big targets... I believe ASC if done right could even score 3 hits on him if what I mean.

Can't do that with Kirby.

Moar editting: Don't worry about making any mentions of Wolf, we need any extra input we can get while we discuss teh Boozer on the side (With Steak as the main course)

 

[Bowser King]

This is NOT a misconception though. Bowser IS big and slow. It IS a misconception to think that the problem will be the deciding factor in the matchup. I think this distinction needs to be drawn because I think we all agree on this in the way that I just worded it.

That said, I do believe that Bowser's large size is a factor of a match up to some degree. He is a larger target for attacks. A good Bowser WILL play defensive to minimize the effect that this factor has on the match, but I don't believe that the problem can be completely eliminated. Also, Bowser's size, and here I am referring to how his size influences the size of his hitboxes, makes a difference on certain stage. I have played Bowser on Yoshi Island (brawl) and when the shy guys fly in, my opponent was in the middle of trying to land an aerial and he ended up in hitstun that stalled him for a few frames that caused the attack to miss. This is significant on a fast character like Sonic. The same things can work in reverse when a large character's giant hitboxes get caught on hurtboxes that belong to the stage and cause the hitbox to remain active longer than normal causing Sonic or any other opponent to get hit when they might not have otherwise. This is why I believe Bowser's large size does factor in.

I know it's a legit misconception but it (speed) play's VERY little part in the matchup because bowser doesn't really need it and the amount he has is good enough for what he does.

As for size, I will redirect you to my last post. I said it plays a part but only a minimum.
There are things we can do to counter it but other then that, yes we are huge and you can hit us fairly easily

-Bowser King

 

[Trillion]

I agree, size is a factor that can be worked around to some degree and Bowser's big size, like I said, also leads to big hitboxes. So it works both ways. I think size plays more than minimal though. I don't want to say that it is the deciding factor or that it will always make a huge difference, but Sonic as we all know has a harder time killing then most characters and since Bowser is a big target for our kill moves, it lowers this disadvantage a little, however at the same time, his weight makes us have to wait longer to kill him. So easier to kill when we are finally ready, but takes longer to get him to that point.

 

[Chis]

The speed one which Bowser's attacks come out and lag are slow in comparison to others. Since Sonic is great at punishing/fainting. Speed should be considered.

 

[Trillion]

The speed one which Bowser's attacks come out and lag are slow in comparison to others. Since Sonic is great at punishing/fainting. Speed should be considered.

I think the speed that was being referred to was Bowser's movement speed like running not necessarily lag on attacks. I might be wrong.

 

[Bowser King]

kill him. So easier to kill when we are finally ready, but takes longer to get him to that point.

Wouldn't it be the other way around?

Easier to get damage on him (because his size) but harder to kill because his weight.

The speed one which Bowser's attacks come out and lag are slow in comparison to others. Since Sonic is great at punishing/fainting. Speed should be considered.

Bowser's attacks are surprisingly fast (well not really fast but....pretty fast for the majority). Some moves have after lag but other then that, move speed isn't really a problem unless the bowser is spamming fsmash.

-Bowser King

 

[Trillion]

Wouldn't it be the other way around?

Easier to get damage on him (because his size) but harder to kill because his weight.

Thats kind of what I was trying to say. We can get damage on him easier because of his size, but the weight makes him harder to kill, but when we are ready to go for that final kill shot with the Fsmash for example, hes a bigger target.

 

[Kinzer]

Okay, let's move on to something else besides just exactly how descriptive we can get about how Bowser is fat.

So I herd teh Boozer haz a bettar fwame than Chairizard?

 

[Trillion]

Bowser's flame is thicker then Charizard's and so it can keep people caught in it longer and get them caught in it easier in certain cases, such as short hopping aiming fire downward on the ledge when an opponent is trying to recover or grab the ledge. (This works for Charizard, so I may be wrong saying that it works for Bowser, sorry if thats the case).

 

[Bowser King]

Thats kind of what I was trying to say. We can get damage on him easier because of his size, but the weight makes him harder to kill, but when we are ready to go for that final kill shot with the Fsmash for example, hes a bigger target.

Ahhh...alright.

Well, we've basically discussed the size and speed thing enough so time to move on?

How about killing and gimping?

Killing=Bowser is pro at it and sonic is not very good.

Gimping= Bowser is not very good (he has bair though >:D) and sonic is pretty good at it (not sure what I should rate this as ).

EDIT: You sonic's are so fast that you beat me to it

Boozer's fire is awesome.

-Bowser King

 

[Kinzer]

Some characters, it's tough to gimp Sonic unless they get really dumb with the low-Spring recovery.

Even though teh Boozer might have a huge grab range... you ain't getting rid of Sonic any other way than outright killing him.

Trust me, recovery is oh so easily done, it's not funny.

As for Sonic's gimp game... it's mediocre at worst.

(Still can't gimp the likes of Meta Knight)

Edit: That's just how we

Spoiler

t

roll, BK.

Mhm... BK... Angus... Tasty!

 

[Browny]

I was certain charizards flame is better?

like in the opening cutscene in brawl, they both flame each other and charizard starts to push bowsers back, DBZ style, gohan vs cell with kamaehamaeha

 

[Kinzer]

I certainly hope that's not what you're basing off of DJ.

AFAIK, Boozer's flame is thicker... that's all I know, I'm not sure which one's go longer, which one might decay slower, which has longer/shorter start-up/ending lag, etc.

That, and all I heard was one of them had a better flame than the other from a couple of people, so it must be true.

I just wish somebody would clarify for me the exact details.

 

[Trillion]

I certainly hope that's not what you're basing off of DJ.

AFAIK, Boozer's flame is thicker... that's all I know, I'm not sure which one's go longer, which one might decay slower, which has longer/shorter start-up/ending lag, etc.

That, and all I heard was one of them had a better flame than the other from a couple of people, so it must be true.

I just wish somebody would clarify for me the exact details.

I believe Charizard's is longer and Bowser's is thicker. I can't remember which decay's faster, but I think it might be Charizards. I think Bowser's has shorter start up lag and longer ending lag. Again I might be wrong.

 

[Bowser King]

Some characters, it's tough to gimp Sonic unless they get really dumb with the low-Spring recovery.

Even though teh Boozer might have a huge grab range... you ain't getting rid of Sonic any other way than outright killing him.

Trust me, recovery is oh so easily done, it's not funny.

As for Sonic's gimp game... it's mediocre at worst.

(Still can't gimp the likes of Meta Knight)

Edit: That's just how we

Spoiler

t

roll, BK.

Mhm... BK... Angus... Tasty!

Maybe but racking damage is easily possible with grabs.

Gimping MK=Very hard (didn't want to say impossible for the sake of not getting flamed)
Still, sonic's probably one of the better characters at gimping.

Lol Zook calls me Burger King all the time and many people have refrenced it .

I was certain charizards flame is better?

like in the opening cutscene in brawl, they both flame each other and charizard starts to push bowsers back, DBZ style, gohan vs cell with kamaehamaeha

Charizard's has more range but overall bowser's is better.

I believe Charizard's is longer and Bowser's is thicker. I can't remember which decay's faster, but I think it might be Charizards. I think Bowser's has shorter start up lag and longer ending lag. Again I might be wrong.

I'll go test that (or if there's a charizard frame rate thread then we can compare the 2).

-:hunger:Burger King

 

[da K.I.D.]

kishsquared is the bowser main right?

didnt puffy beat him in tourney?

if that is the case and puffy beat ksquared, and I beat sliq, and those are the only two examples we have of a top bowser against a top sonic, I would have to believe that sonic has the advantage in this match.

thats a lot of theory though...

 

[Kinzer]

I wanted to say Steak but then they don't have Steak at BK, just Angus Beef.

Not as good as the original, but still good nonetheless.

And nobody would flame you for saying it's impossible, MK is just that good.

So I feel that we've gotten rid of most everything for teh Boozer as far as discussion goes, the consensus loooks like it's more or less neutral with no clear advantage to either chaarcter, though Bowser seems more reasonable, but still...

Just's just a TL:DR version, but of course when I go to do the write-up I'll be much more detailed, so is there anything that has yet to be covered or am I gettign something wrong or what?

 

[Bowser King]

I wanted to say Steak but then they don't have Steak at BK, just Angus Beef.

Not as good as the original, but still good nonetheless.

And nobody would flame you for saying it's impossible, MK is just that good.

So I feel that we've gotten rid of most everything for teh Boozer as far as discussion goes, the consensus loooks like it's more or less neutral with no clear advantage to either chaarcter, though Bowser seems more reasonable, but still...

Just's just a TL:DR version, but of course when I go to do the write-up I'll be much more detailed, so is there anything that has yet to be covered or am I gettign something wrong or what?

I would say 50:50, possibly 55:45 bowser but the 1st seems pretty reasonable to avoid dispute.

-Bowser King

 

[MrEh]

Wow...you guys were really busy while I was away.

I am curious as to how Bowser would be killing off Sonic at 60% =\

Chaingrab can potentially deal about 25%. After that, Dtilt.

Even though teh Boozer might have a huge grab range...

His grab range is actually pretty sad. Dash grab is fine, but has a lot of lag afterwards.

I was certain charizards flame is better?

Bowser>Charizard

 

[Bowser King]

Wow...you guys were really busy while I was away.

Yeah
I was thinking this discussion was going to turn out bad but discussing with the sonic boards was pretty fun

Chaingrab can potentially deal about 25%. After that, Dtilt.

...that or VB

His grab range is actually pretty sad. Dash grab is fine, but has a lot of lag afterwards.

Agreed. I like putting up my shield when the approach and using bowsers huge size to help grab them :D

Bowser>Charizard

Basically. Charizard's is pretty good for keeping others away but bowser's comes in a lot more handy when it comes to keeping them trapped.

-Bowser King

 

[Sliq]

sliq doesnt d3 do good against wolf as well?

Does well against =/= always wins

D3 will always beat Bowser.

D3 will not always beat Wolf.

 

[da K.I.D.]

fair enough.

yo son, when you comin back to rochester dude?

we got a tourney on the 14th.

 

[ShadowLink84]

1. This is why I shouldnt have to share my tier spot with you. My shoulders are weak from carrying you so much.

you always make me laugh.

2. i pretty sure all of bowsers smashes could kill sonic at 60. they might have to be charged but whatever.

A number of moves will kill at lower percentages when chargd. And Di can also help reduce that as well as momentum canceling.

theres also his up air and down b which can both kill stupid early if you hit them high enough in the air.

But thats the same as saying Sonic's uair is a kill move then cause of hitting them high enough in the air.
A kill move flat out kills someone , it doesn't have a strict requirement such as placement.

and note that that post said that bowser CAN kill sonic at 60. Not that he WILL kill sonic at 60

which is why i asked, HOW does Bowser kill Sonic at 60%.
you act as if I was calling you a liar.

If a wolf actually uses up-B offensively then hes not very good. Wolfs up-b is sooo bad its ridiculous. It doesnt really matter if your F-smash outprioritizes it cuz a good wolf will never use it except for recovery.

I thought that was when it mattered? During recovery I mean, since the sweetspot for wolf is rather poor.

Wolf outspaces and kills sonic earlier than sonic kills wolf.

And faster!

Plus wolf has a really good projectile that beats spindash.

NO! *hits you*
Sonic will NOT spindash towards you directly,it is never used for approaching.
if the Sonic is goo though he can bypass it with invincibility frames but that won't happen much to mean anything to the match up.

Oh and D-smash/reflector also beat spindash.

Like I said it doesn't matter.

hough Dsmash is due to poking Sonic's hitbox and well, laser and reflector have laser priority.
Not like will go spindashing at you.

Wolfs reflector can be used as an escape from any weird combo like things sonic could do as it gives him momentary invincibility.

The few combos Sonic has won't be shined away because the hitstun is too long in between hits. Most moves are follow ups and shining won't really do much since Sonic can cancel his movement.

Sonic has his fast movement speed and a better recovery but not much else over wolf.

I think Sonic can also do well in messing with Wolf's ability to space because of his very quick speed.

60-40 or 55-45 wolfs favor IMO.

Agreed.

Oh wait I didnt notice you guys were doing bowser sorry bout that. ignore this I was linked to an older page so whateva.

We'll still respond cause we love you.

Wow...you guys were really busy while I was away.

We're a rather busy board surprisingly.

Chaingrab can potentially deal about 25%. After that, Dtilt.

I don't think the Dtilt would kill of Sonic because he can momentum cancel with side B and then jump then ^B or homing attack.
not 100% sure though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

down tilt will probably kill sonic at around 95 at the edge of final D

 

[Kinzer]

No Shadow, we do not love people, we are not gay.

BTW I get the impression the DTilt thing was a joke.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No Shadow, we do not love people, we are not gay.

Never meant it in a gay fashion

BTW I get the impression the DTilt thing was a joke.

I don't know its hard to tell tone on the web.

@Kid: =\ HI HONEY

 

[Tenki]

[1] If a wolf actually uses up-B offensively then hes not very good. Wolfs up-b is sooo bad its ridiculous. It doesnt really matter if your F-smash outprioritizes it cuz a good wolf will never use it except for recovery.



[2] Everything outprioritizes spindash

[1] By bringing up the "it was on wifi", I meant that the Wolf used up-B either via lag missing the ledge or by accident, and I just realized that obviously trivial "Fsmash outprioritizes Wolf's up-B" fact.

However, I wanted to extend that observation to imply that Sonic's B-air might be able to hit Wolf out of up-B off-stage, as in to gimp, stage spike, etc.

[2] You know, unless the player we're playing against cannot punish spindash for life, we'll only really use spindash as a punisher move (to punish you when you can't do anything) or to do a false approach where we can just shield/jump out and counterattack the move you meant to use to outprioritize Sonic.

-------------------------

@ Bowsar
Doesn't Sonic's tilts clang with fortress, and B-air beat it, if you can bait it out somehow?

Or does its 'priority' die down towards the end?

 

[Kinzer]

It's priority does dwindle as it ends, and as for hitting Wolf out of Up-B, I can tell you that Bair on Lag-Fi will still trade hits with it.

Knkock yourself out on gimping Wolf in-person, were you won't mess up on timing except for human error.

 

[B!squick]

Fortress has invincibility frames. Not through the whole move of course, so it would depend on when and what is used. I don't have a way to reliably test the, "What clangs/beats Fortress" question, but know that good Bowsers will obviously make the best use of those invincibility frames.

Though in retrospec, Sonic is a fast little bugger, so it probably would matter. It has epic priority, I know that for a fact.

 

[Jim Morrison]

So... Bowsers jab...
It's fast and has a pisshuge range.