Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Sosuke]

Oh, stupid of me.
I forgot that you can just run up -> power shield --> continue if your at the appropriate distance.

But if its close, just take the damage.

At least I got to it before I have to leave. ^_^

 

[oOJaseOo]

He just said the arrows part...
:3

i know im a slow typer <(>.<")> wasnt there when i started

 

[infomon]

Sonic approaching: I'm assuming Sonics usually approach with stuff like Spin dash and Side B (whatever its called >_>). And I've been hearing this stuff about how Sonic's weakness is Dtilt? For when Sonic approaches right? =/ Thats sorta dumb.

lolllllllll you've fallen into the trap those are like, the two worst misconceptions about Sonic that we Sonics have learned to hate/mock the most But because we make fun of them so much, ppl start to think we're serious

Spindashes are quite lousy approaches, but great punishers. They're also just a need way to move around the stage and apply pressure or just to be unpredictable in general. They're the main approach you'll see by n00b Sonics, but good Sonics will just train you not to expect them (there's lots of different ways to cancel the spindash approaches, lolz), then maybe hit you with them when you don't expect them and react early.

Sonics like to run in quick + shieldgrab... or bait and punish (often with a grab). IMO.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Oh, side-B is called spin dash (SD); and we call down-B spin charge (SC).

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yess! I didn't miss it!
Sorry for taking so long with this, I forgot that I was going to post in this thread. >_<;


TL Approaching: As said before, TL's Zair is really good. Personally, I don't care about the other characters height. I Zair the same way almost every time (o it cancels when the chain is out at its maximum length). I've never had problems with short characters at all. Zair leads to stuff like grab, Nair (maybe a quick draw after), bomb throw (Toon Link can Zair with a bomb if he air dodges first. Thats why you see a lot of air dodging before Zair) and pretty much other stuff like that. It MIGHT lead to Usmash, but that usually doesn't work on better players. Other approaches TL has are: Short hop Nair-> retreat during the Nair-> quickdraw (If a TL does this, I'm pretty sure you should be able to get up to him while hes quick drawing because Sonics so fast). Run straight past you, Short Hop, Bair (this pretty much means don't drop your shield if he runs past you). Thats all that comes to mind right now.

This would be rather akward, since Sonic is forced to approach, Toon Link shouldn't have to approach. However, I think Toon Link actually might be better off approaching than projectile spamming if his weak spot is indeed 45 degrees (see below), because Sonic will get hit by one arrow or so and continue the approach for a decent 20%. Sonics offensive feels much more natural and better than his defense, which kind of sucks. Don't go throwing out punishable move, Sonic is the king of punishment.
As for the B-air barrage, that won't work on Sonic for very long, Spring will save us out of it. And yea, Z-air is good, but not matchup breaking.

Sonic approaching: I'm assuming Sonics usually approach with stuff like Spin dash and Side B (whatever its called >_>). And I've been hearing this stuff about how Sonic's weakness is Dtilt? For when Sonic approaches right? =/ Thats sorta dumb. Well, most Toon Links (excluding me ^_^) don't use Dtilt much. So thats not much to worry about I guess? I'm pretty sure you can do a jump during the spin dash, so that might be a good approach? Hitting Toon Link's shield diagonally from the top is pretty much TL's weakness, so do moves that do that. Theres not much he can do about it.

*bad Michael Jackson impression*
Sasukebowser are you ok, are you OK Sasukebowser, you've just been hit by false information and Sonic board memes.

Quite frankly, both of those are false. Sonics rarely approach with Side-B/down-B (I'll call it SDR from now amirite) unless they know their opponent has no idea on how to work with it.
As my signature says, this only works for MK, which still doesn't work. We have spinshot to go right over D-tilt. DO NOT D-TILT.
Yes, we definitly have a move that hits 45 degree angle (above his shield), which would be ASC, which we all love. It has 2 hitboxes in a row, which do 20% or something close to that, with some decent knockback. I don't really see much problems for approaching Sonic if that is TL's weakness.

Projectiles: Yeah, well... yeah. Three of them. Whole bunch of stuff can be done with all 3, and they can be used in combination sometimes.

Arrows: Mostly used for arrow cancels. Ex: Nair- > quick draw, Fair, Bair. bomb pull, w/e -> quickdraw. The good news is that Sonics fast enough to get close enough to punish Toon Link for these! The bad news is that you'll get hit by an arrow and take a little damage. But whats that compared to a free grab, tilt or w/e you have the time to use?

I agree, QD seems awfully useless here, because of the lag you have. I'd only use it when you hit Sonic with N-air/F-air and then QD, or B-air and turnaround QD.

Boomerangs: Useful for jsut having something out that can damage whoever hes up against. Doesn't really lead to anything when thrown forward (maaaaaaybe Fair if TLs lucky), but on the way back its like a little "flinch" move. Lets say TL throws a boomerang. You sidestep and run up to him and grab. The boomerang on the way back will hit you, release TL from the grab, and probably give him a free grab or move. Think of the boomerang as a Falco shooting a laser coming towards TL while they're on the same team. The boomerang takes a lot of time to throw and catch, so thats always something to punish.
Oh, and boomerangs go through like everything on the way back, including the stage.

Boomerang is my most dreaded projectile. I'd just wait for it to return to TL when he has just thrown one, or just walk/run behind it. If I'd grab you and Boomerang is returning, I'll use B-throw on you :O

Bombs: Probably the most versatile projectile, as they can be held and thrown and stuff. They have some stun and lead to some stuff blah blah blah. They can be dropped on platforms/ the stage/ and the edge pretty easily if the TL has practice with it.

I don't see bombs as much trouble, since Sonic will almost always be in your face. That's the problem when fighting Sonic and people discussing his matchup, they think they can always keep camping and use projectiles, but once Sonic gets one attack in, his barrage continues, and he keeps pressuring, one attack after another. He won't give you the time to pull out a bomb, or if you have one, throw it safely. You'll take the hit up in the face.

Killing: TL sucks at killing. Sonic is sorta bad too. Toon Link can Bomb -> Fair or Uair if the set up is right, because bombs actually have some stun. Usmash after Zair works sometimes I suppose, although I don't do it much. Toon Link has this new thing called "invinci-bombing" When he air dodges and drops a bomb at he same time. Since the bomb has stun and Toon Link's invulnerable at the time due to the air dodge, He can use an aerial or maybe Usmash after he approaches you with one of these. This is relatively new, so I don't have much info on it.
TL kills much better vertically then he does horizontally. Keep that in mind

For Sonics killing: idk. Do what you usually do?? Maybe go to stages where its easier to kill horizontally. Sonic's Fsmash and Bair will be essential if you do so.

I am happy to say I feel like both characters suck equally at killing. As TL kills vertical, I'd stay away from Green Greens this one or Corneria, instead go to Jungle Japes. TL's recovery isn't that cool on that stage. Sonic usually kills with F-smash yea. Don't think it's that hard to land, because you'll get quite a few of them, sometimes as punishers, sometimes just Sonic screech stops behind you, F-smash your back.

Random stuff: TL's Dsmash gimps at slanted platforms,
What stage that Sonic would choose has slanted platforms? Actually, which stage does, other than Yoshi's Story?
DI-ing out of Sonic's Usmash usually leads to aerials from TL 9probably Dair...).
DI-ing out of U-smash usually results in being smacked to the ground, so I don't see a D-air happening O_o
Teching Sonic's Dthrow = TL Dsmash (at least thats what I do).
****, someone took Boxob seriously and knows you can teach our D-throw



This is pretty much all, since I have to go out.
I'll be glad to answer any questions and explain anything when I get back.

Yesz, we have a good post!

BTW, Sasuke, we can play on wifi if you want :O

SONIC BOARDS CAN HAS SMARTNESS PILL

 

[iRjOn]

Gf2tw
Sonic yes is a pressure character.
Yes he will be in your face.
But that doesn't mean Toon Link cant get you out of his face.
When Toon Link camps unless hes spamming you, hes camping "on the move" thus being called highspeed camping by me.

Toon Links dont really stay "still" or in one spot unless their spamming you.

QD is not awfully useless cause its lagg still isn't that much.
Toon Link probally wont QD in your face.

About that blind spot it is there but even for Sonic its difficult to capitilize on.
ASC does fair can I think but really the only character that I think can acctually abuse this is MK...

 

[infomon]

Gf2tw
Sonic yes is a pressure character.
Yes he will be in your face.
But that doesn't mean Toon Link cant get you out of his face.
When Toon Link camps unless hes spamming you, hes camping "on the move" thus being called highspeed camping by me.

That sounds....... very correct. Like that's a very good way to describe the way TLinks play (from vids I've seen at least)... I like it.

 

[Sosuke]

lolllllllll you've fallen into the trap those are like, the two worst misconceptions about Sonic that we Sonics have learned to hate/mock the most But because we make fun of them so much, ppl start to think we're serious

Spindashes are quite lousy approaches, but great punishers. They're also just a need way to move around the stage and apply pressure or just to be unpredictable in general. They're the main approach you'll see by n00b Sonics, but good Sonics will just train you not to expect them (there's lots of different ways to cancel the spindash approaches, lolz), then maybe hit you with them when you don't expect them and react early.

Sonics like to run in quick + shieldgrab... or bait and punish (often with a grab). IMO.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Oh, side-B is called spin dash (SD); and we call down-B spin charge (SC).

Okay. Thank you.
I'm like "So why do they even DO that approach if it can be stopped with Dtilts?? Oh well... idk how to use Sonic, so whatever *shrugs" They probably have some stuff I don't know about"
But ok. This is better. =P

*now knows the secret of Sonic's approach* >_>
MUHAHAHA!

Sawnik's grab must be gud den huh??

SONIC BOARDS CAN HAS SMARTNESS PILL

I'm not really sure how to respond to your post other then "ok". ^_^;;
I suck at this game too much to play on Wifi. Sowwy.

Well we could, but I'd probably just go random. =/
Not to say I wouldn't try my hardest, but I jsut wouldn't pink TL (if thats ok with you).
I nu liek using TL online. It makes me sad.

But I really have to go right now!
See you guys later.


- = ....

!!!!!!!!!1!1111one!!

 

[infomon]

*now knows the secret of Sonic's approach* >_>
MUHAHAHA!

Sawnik's grab must be gud den huh??

lolz, not particularly. Just that we're fast enough to run in and grab ppl when they do lotsa stuff. And our grabs often set up for other stuff, which I guess is good, but nothing's guaranteed.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonics grab game is uber almost everyone. Throws do a rough 10%, pummel is fast and 3%, just got a poor grab range. I'll play you sometime later than, saske.

 

[Tenki]

And again Sonic is tall enough.

Thiiis.

If Samus can do it with her height, TL can do it, too.

[1] Sonic approaching: I'm assuming Sonics usually approach with stuff like Spin dash and Side B (whatever its called >_>). And I've been hearing this stuff about how Sonic's weakness is Dtilt? For when Sonic approaches right? =/ Thats sorta dumb. Well, most Toon Links (excluding me ^_^) don't use Dtilt much. So thats not much to worry about I guess? I'm pretty sure you can do a jump during the spin dash, so that might be a good approach? Hitting Toon Link's shield diagonally from the top is pretty much TL's weakness, so do moves that do that. Theres not much he can do about it.

...

[2] For Sonics killing: idk. Do what you usually do?? Maybe go to stages where its easier to kill horizontally. Sonic's Fsmash and Bair will be essential if you do so.


[3] DI-ing out of Sonic's Usmash usually leads to aerials from TL 9probably Dair...).
Teching Sonic's Dthrow = TL Dsmash (at least thats what I do).

[3] Vids of DIing out of Sonic's U-smash plz.
also, I'm inclined to think that if you down-DI stand tech Sonic's D-throw, a buffered/held shield will p-shield or shield your D-smash.

[2] probably some bait for a F-smash or D-smash. Once in a while, sweetspot D-air or F-air/B-air off-stage for gimp.

[1] Some enlightenment:

I beat Anther's Sonic, after being down a stock, because OS was standing right there and said "dastrn: don't move and hit down tilt."

It worked. Sonic is garbage.

OS: "No disjointed hitboxes of any kind, spam works. And there's nothing that Sonic can do, because the only things that go around it are so telegraphed that the other person can just move out of the way. Like, I literally walked up to DastrnMarco and said
'hey, you're playing Anther's Sonic and you're down a couple stocks; Hold down and just hit A alot. He's gonna jump and do a neutral B. Shield and roll. Then down-tilt again. He then beat Anther's Sonic.'"

----------------

As for approaches, I'd personally walk and shield, or run and shield until close range.
What I'd do then would probably rely on what you're doing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Os has this nasty problem where he makes large generalizations that are rather untrue.

 

[Jim Morrison]

No he doesn't. OS is very knowledgeable when it comes down to Sonic. He has studied him for over 3 minutes, which is enough to be able to generalize Sonics whole gameplay.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

no He Doesn't. Os Is Very Knowledgeable When It Comes Down To Sonic. He Has Studied Him For Over 3 Minutes, Which Is Enough To Be Able To Generalize Sonics Whole Gameplay.

Qft

 

[iRjOn]

Ok so how could Sonic handle a Toon Link?
I can kinda help I use to main Sonic
I rememeber all his AT's
So any ideas?

 

[illinialex24]

In honor of supporting Steak, I have changed my avatar.

 

[da K.I.D.]

awesome...

(my) sonic will do a lot of standing still and walking against a tink, to try and get in between the projectilesand once he does, he has to keep up the pressure, and we will cancel a lot of approaches to attempt to make you do some thing that makes you vulnerable, we have a crap ton of follow ups off of grabs.

 

[illinialex24]

awesome...

(my) sonic will do a lot of standing still and walking against a tink, to try and get in between the projectilesand once he does, he has to keep up the pressure, and we will cancel a lot of approaches to attempt to make you do some thing that makes you vulnerable, we have a crap ton of follow ups off of grabs.

Oh yeah does anyone here have photoshop? I'm too lazy to find a pirated version but I want to change a pokemon to an A! steak sauce bottle and I need Photoshop.

 

[iRjOn]

awesome...

(my) sonic will do a lot of standing still and walking against a tink, to try and get in between the projectilesand once he does, he has to keep up the pressure, and we will cancel a lot of approaches to attempt to make you do some thing that makes you vulnerable, we have a crap ton of follow ups off of grabs.

Hmm does Sonic have any answers for anything Toon Link can do?
Only thingy Sonic can do that I can thihk of is mind games...but those are erelavent in match up disscusions...

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

If Toon Link is doing arrow> boomering> bomb wanting us to approach. Sonic can just run and shield the arrows. Stop or walk and power shield the boomerang, and then depending on how close Sonic has gotten: If the TL goes for it again, repeat. If he runs away, chase but be ready to shield. Either way, Sonic will quickly get in TL's face and start his pressuring.

I'm pretty sure Sonic can shield or dash away from zair before getting hit. Dair is a bad option for TL as Sonic can bair, dair and I think even upair if he's carefull as the hit box for dair only goes up to around TL's hands.

How quickly can you guys get out of dair once you hit the button? Say, if there's no bottom? Me and the TL were both just off stage last stock for us both. I'm under him too far to do anything but spring as I don't have my second jump. He dairs and I spring through it. He continues to go down and hits the spring with the dair he initiated and then continues to dair,though the speed of it is slower (like it is after TL hits as you guys know) and doesn't stop until the bottom blastline. The stage was Smashville. Also,he was just above stage level when he initiated the dair.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The Dair is out for an extremely long amoung of time and considering how fast he shoots down. if he dairs if there is no bottom, he'll most likely die, if not die, get set up to be gimped.
he won't dair very often.
If he Dairs the ground, Sonic is fast enough to grab him.

Like I said, TL won't Dair often against anyone, its too unsafe most of the time.

If he is being sent up and Dairs, he won't fastfall and it will act as a shield from any uairs considering the narrow hitbox of Sonic's Uair. Its very good defensive wise rather than offense.

 

[iRjOn]

If Toon Link is doing arrow> boomering> bomb wanting us to approach. Sonic can just run and shield the arrows. Stop or walk and power shield the boomerang, and then depending on how close Sonic has gotten: If the TL goes for it again, repeat. If he runs away, chase but be ready to shield. Either way, Sonic will quickly get in TL's face and start his pressuring.

I'm pretty sure Sonic can shield or dash away from zair before getting hit. Dair is a bad option for TL as Sonic can bair, dair and I think even upair if he's carefull as the hit box for dair only goes up to around TL's hands.

How quickly can you guys get out of dair once you hit the button? Say, if there's no bottom? Me and the TL were both just off stage last stock for us both. I'm under him too far to do anything but spring as I don't have my second jump. He dairs and I spring through it. He continues to go down and hits the spring with the dair he initiated and then continues to dair,though the speed of it is slower (like it is after TL hits as you guys know) and doesn't stop until the bottom blastline. The stage was Smashville. Also,he was just above stage level when he initiated the dair.

Dair
If we are off stage it wont end.
We will die.
If we hit your spring we will pogo thus ending the move after a few more frames begining able to recover before getting close to the bottom really.
And if you spring under Toon Links dair start up you'll be spiked.
:\
You might still survive though.

Sonic cant dash away before zair hits.
He can just shield it...
If we expect that though you'll be grabbed.

Dashing or walking through Toon Links Projectile Spam isn't an easy powershield here and powershield there.
By the time you begin to breech the barrier a smart Toon Link would a) have reset the senario or b) not do something so risky and try to spam a sonic.
But its still possible to shield through it.

 

[Vyse]

I tried using Sonic against Australia's best MK and failed hardcore
=_=

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre bad and you should feel bad...

masochist...

back to toonlink...

i dont really know what specifically we should do deal with tinks attacks and tactics, its seems lik a spur of the moment thing...

 

[Tenki]

Sonic cant dash away before zair hits.
He can just shield it...
If we expect that though you'll be grabbed.

General idea for a situation:
[Toon link Z-air] > [Sonic shield]> [Sonic F-air OoS]?

 

[illinialex24]

Anybody want steak??

 

[Kinzer]

Is a broken link, Alex.

I really need to start reading all these WoTs in the thread.

 

[thecatinthehat]

oh no it isnt.

I see it crystal clear.

I think I just came.

I wonder when this thread will be updated.

 

[ShadowLink84]

General idea for a situation:
[Toon link Z-air] > [Sonic shield]> [Sonic F-air OoS]?

Not gonna happen, TL is too far away and if you stay on the ground to dash towards him you'll get grabbed.

 

[iRjOn]

General idea for a situation:
[Toon link Z-air] > [Sonic shield]> [Sonic F-air OoS]?

hmmm that seems like a good idea.
Cause a SH fair from Sonic I think hits Toon Links blind spot diagonally above him.

But since zair auto cancels it probally wont work multiple times.
Good idea though Tenki

10steaks for Tenki
:O
wh00t

Anyway from what we know both characters kinda have to wing it.
I know both sides considering I use Sonic but I dont really see any potential answers for Toon Links abilities.
I know there are some though.
Like close range Sonics Jab combo reaches far enough to challange Toon Links.
Dtilt might be troublesome
Ftilt would be good against him close range.

Hmmm... Spin dash and spin charge dont seem to useful against Toon Link...

 

[da K.I.D.]

well it depends, if you z air as soon as you jump, we can punish, and you cant fast fall it fast enough, if you do it while your falling, thats a different story.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Dair
If we are off stage it wont end.
We will die.
If we hit your spring we will pogo thus ending the move after a few more frames begining able to recover before getting close to the bottom really.
And if you spring under Toon Links dair start up you'll be spiked.
:\
You might still survive though.

Sonic cant dash away before zair hits.
He can just shield it...
If we expect that though you'll be grabbed.

Dashing or walking through Toon Links Projectile Spam isn't an easy powershield here and powershield there.
By the time you begin to breech the barrier a smart Toon Link would a) have reset the senario or b) not do something so risky and try to spam a sonic.
But its still possible to shield through it.

Spring has invinci frames while Sonic is rising up. The example I pointed out was from a recorded friendly between me and Espy. It should be the newest vid in the Steak Cinamas thread vs Toon Link. So you can see for yourself. It happens at the very end of it.

I wasn't sure if Sonic could run away from zair or not. But I'm fairly certain he can he can shield the zair and still avoid the grab.

 

[Tenki]

If you try to invincy-frame through TLink's D-air, he'll pogo-stick bounce off of the spring. Meanwhile, you'll have to land before you can sanely try to do a gimp attempt, and he'll probably be mid up-B or already on the edge by the time you can run off the edge.

And as for the shield the Z-air +F-air idea, I meant it to be a 'countermove' to Z-air>grab.

However, if he's spacing it and doesn't go for the grab, you can just empty jump, lol.

edit: screw it, if he goes for a Z-air>grab (and you're SURE he'll grab), might as well shield > SH ASC counterattack.

But just keep in mind he has other choices from a Z-air landing .. lol

 

[Jim Morrison]

But just keep in mind he has other choices from a Z-air landing .. lol

Nah, I'll just pretend grab is all there is.

 

[iRjOn]

Spring has invinci frames while Sonic is rising up. The example I pointed out was from a recorded friendly between me and Espy. It should be the newest vid in the Steak Cinamas thread vs Toon Link. So you can see for yourself. It happens at the very end of it.

I wasn't sure if Sonic could run away from zair or not. But I'm fairly certain he can he can shield the zair and still avoid the grab.

Hmmm I understand.

But if you dont prefect shield zair then you cant avoid the grab really.
And its not that big a deal cause Toon Links dont grab too much anyway.
Toon Link has better options after zair.

Oh KID
Toon Link can Airdodge and zair it will extend its full length then be auto cancelled.
So it makes it easier to zair imo. Gives you something else to think about.
This is all in a SH of course.

But still anywho what else we got?

 

[Browny]

lol TL... i got one TL main on my FC list, all he does is throw boomerangs, spams fsmash and dair. Its only a hard matchup coz that **** is hard to dodge on wifi >_<

also this discussion is dying. Next character?

 

[Kinzer]

Well there's still a few posts to kill before the next character, and I have been extremely lazy to read all of these WoTs... I still need to read some for Jigglypuff! -_-

How about this, does each board agree to something? Wather I get an answer or not, I should be able to find out (some time...), and I'll still be able to do a write-up just to get SOMETHING worthwhile out of it.

So whose the next character anyway, wasn't it Bowser?

Edit: Correction, it's Wolf... and God oh mighty I hate Wolf, it's like a MK with more camp.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Wolf is kind of fun cause he's weak to our strengths and we're weak to his strengths.

 

[Kinzer]

I need TL:DR data people (if deliverable (sp?)), meaning are both boards more or less fine on what should be written up, or is there still some friction/undecided things that must be discussed before we move on to Wolf?

 

[MalcolmM]

illnalex i am FEELING that puffball with the A1.

 

[Browny]

ROB is not 50:50

that is all