Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Chis]

How? It's short and weak. It just auto cancels.

 

[Jim Morrison]

It puts them in a bit of hitstun. And a move that auto-cancels at any time can't be bad. It should be used everytime you land. It also helps spacing, just like Link's does. btw, 10x 4% adds up after a while.

 

[iRjOn]

How? It's short and weak. It just auto cancels.

Its about the length of Marths sword.
Not as long though just about.
And you just said why its weak and auto cancels.
Which leads to nearly all of Toon Links bread and butters even can follow up with his most use kill move upsmash.

 

[Chis]

As in 4% weak.

I know what Zair does, I do main Link.

 

[Jim Morrison]

TL's Z-air isn't about damage, it's setting people up for other attacks.

 

[Chis]

Read the post above yours Guus.

 

[iRjOn]

As in 4% weak.

I know what Zair does, I do main Link.

Toon Links zair is different from Link
considering how the characters use it.
Its not about damage
The damage comes from what zair leads into

 

[Chis]

I know what Zair does, I do main Link.

 

[Jim Morrison]

So how is his Z-air not good?

 

[iRjOn]

I know what Zair does, I do main Link.

Then whats your point?
if you know what it does then why question its goodness?

 

[Chis]

Compared to others.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Others do more damage, but don't set up for stuff as much as TL's does.
Samus does too much knockback, and Link sometimes has 2nd hit for much knockback too.

 

[iRjOn]

heh we are talking about zair being a great move for Toon Link not how great is compared to every zair in Brawl.


So either way lol
Do you all wish for me to explain the projectiles?

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Cause when being directly compared with Link's and Samus' zair, TL's sucks.

D= I haven't used TL in months. Does bair still **** everything in it's path?

Despite how short zair's range is I don't think it's much of a problem at all. Sonic doesn't have too much an amazing range. ftilt might be able to beat it out though.

Is Sonic just tall enough to where, TL can hit Sonic with zair anywhere during his short hop?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I read the TL boards for like 4 days, so I kind of know, but sure, explain. And Renegade, no. Sonic isn't tall enough.

 

[iRjOn]

Cause when being directly compared with Link's and Samus' zair, TL's sucks.

D= I haven't used TL in months. Does bair still **** everything in it's path?

Despite how short zair's range is I don't think it's much of a problem at all. Sonic doesn't have too much an amazing range. ftilt might be able to beat it out though.

Is Sonic just tall enough to where, TL can hit Sonic with zair anywhere during his short hop?

Yes but you wont have to worry about that really cause almost all zairs will be auto cancelled.

But Sonics ftilt doesn't out range zair they are about the same length.
But zair is faster.

Yes bair still pwns
:]

Zair probally will be a problem.

EDIT:
ok I'll explain in alittle.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Well, if Sonic's not tall enough then we should be able to fly in with out amazing ground speed and possibly hit him before he starts it?

I'm just coming up with theories atm. Never got to face a TL.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Usually TL airdodges before using Z-air. You can airdodge and press A in the middle of the airdodge to do Z-air.

 

[iRjOn]

Well, if Sonic's not tall enough then we should be able to fly in with out amazing ground speed and possibly hit him before he starts it?

I'm just coming up with theories atm. Never got to face a TL.

Its not that simple zair think of it as a Marths fair with different machanics
basically saying by the time you run up zair would have come out.
And again Sonic is tall enough.

zair's startup is nearly non exsitant.

 

[Kinzer]

What's this I hear about T.Link's Zair being somewhat disregarded?

Let me tell you bois something.

Zair : It *****.

But seriously now, Sonic is about a little bit taller than Mario... maybe about the same height as Weegee, that's more than enough for the tether to extend full length for as long as it is.

Simply PS if they start spamming this junk against you, but it's still a hassle to deal with.

Either that, or SpinShot over it.

Anyway I petition that we push this off for another day, most of the Sonic boards will be gone, and I myself will have to leave soon for my tourney.

jOn, are this guys negotiating alright with you so far?

 

[Chis]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698&page=139

The Zelda's are doing Sonic. Appreantly spamming down tilt makes it 55:45 - 60:40 in Zelda's favour.

I'm not joking.

 

[Kinzer]

Blah!

I would say that a good Sonic won't be approaching from the ground too often, but yeah, I can't.

I'm going to have to leave in a few minutes.

I still doubt the DTilt lock works too much if at all. For one thing, DI takes care of that, and then we have a Spring.

Too much to do in such little time.

*sigh*

 

[da K.I.D.]

ive come up with a policy...

dont bother helping other character boards with their sonic matchups unless they ask for it, many times i go to correct misconceptions about sonic and i get disregarded basically because they think they know sonic just fine and they never asked for my help.

so unless someone from another board intentionally comes over here and asks for our help like they olimars did, dont bother with it.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Our matches will be neutral and they'll have like 7:3 because they aren't willing to listen to reason. lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

but anyways back to toon link...

WTF does this character do?
do you guys still down air alot? i would guess no, but i really dont know.
does he kill with anything besides up smash?
cant we spring out of his forward smash?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Alright I used to dabble in TLinkery so.....

TLink's won't Dair much if at all. I used to use it against Sonic's who would Uthrow/Smash/tilt me and try to spring since the stall then fall floating mechanic gave me a wall to assess the situation.

Fair can kill. Fsmash, Usmash. I've killed with fresh/nearly fresh bairs before. Not typical though. Dsmash can also kill pretty well.

I don't think we can spring out. The whole point of the first part of Fsmash is to stun them. When the hitstun is decayed I think we can but that's irrelevant as we're not going to get Fsmashed to the point it's decayed and if we DO their item spam is sure to refresh it.


This may be an outdated style but from what I remember TLink's play revolved heavily around item spam. SHDA(Shorthop Double Arrow) Boomerangs and Zair made up a huge part of it. Basically forming a brick wall until the opponent was in a proper position to begin bair chains. Tlilnk has a NASTY RAR. Sonic can spring out after the second/third one but Tlink can punish Spring to dair by throwing a boomerang right after we spring. If we dair we get hit and Tlink is fast enough to follow it up and possibly Usmash. If we don't dair they have time to pull a bomb and prepare an item assault.

Regardless of how that just read I think it's 55:45/6:4 for Tlink at the worst. I don't personally fear the matchup but I know what's to be expected. Then again I heard the TLink boards were rather productive as of late. His style could have changed drastically since I last truly used him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i might pick him up soon, he seems like a fun character and i hear he counters GaW

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fsmash doesn't kill evenw hen fresh. if you DI up you'll be out of hitstun long enough to jump away or spring.
or you can hit him before he can attack you.

 

[da K.I.D.]

thats what i thought...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Orly? Good to know.

So I guess our MAIN fear is Hyphen Smash against our Dair.

 

[oOJaseOo]

Alright I used to dabble in TLinkery so.....

TLink's won't Dair much if at all. I used to use it against Sonic's who would Uthrow/Smash/tilt me and try to spring since the stall then fall floating mechanic gave me a wall to assess the situation.

Fair can kill. Fsmash, Usmash. I've killed with fresh/nearly fresh bairs before. Not typical though. Dsmash can also kill pretty well.

I don't think we can spring out. The whole point of the first part of Fsmash is to stun them. When the hitstun is decayed I think we can but that's irrelevant as we're not going to get Fsmashed to the point it's decayed and if we DO their item spam is sure to refresh it.


This may be an outdated style but from what I remember TLink's play revolved heavily around item spam. SHDA(Shorthop Double Arrow) Boomerangs and Zair made up a huge part of it. Basically forming a brick wall until the opponent was in a proper position to begin bair chains. Tlilnk has a NASTY RAR. Sonic can spring out after the second/third one but Tlink can punish Spring to dair by throwing a boomerang right after we spring. If we dair we get hit and Tlink is fast enough to follow it up and possibly Usmash. If we don't dair they have time to pull a bomb and prepare an item assault.

Regardless of how that just read I think it's 55:45/6:4 for Tlink at the worst. I don't personally fear the matchup but I know what's to be expected. Then again I heard the TLink boards were rather productive as of late. His style could have changed drastically since I last truly used him.

our up air and usmash are our main kill moves and we have quite a few tricks to keep you guessing but all in all you got the basics

 

[Chis]

Any Toon Links up for some wifi?

Hint: I'm in the UK

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

our up air and usmash are our main kill moves and we have quite a few tricks to keep you guessing but all in all you got the basics

I only played him for like two weeks back in.... late May/Early June. So sorry for any incorrect statements.

And yeah. Uair. Forgot about that. Freakin' hurts man.

 

[iRjOn]

but anyways back to toon link...

WTF does this character do?
Alot of Spam that is hard as hell for Sonic to get through.

do you guys still down air alot? i would guess no, but i really dont know.
Nope

does he kill with anything besides up smash?
Yes I'll order them from used to least used
Usmash(you know this one)
Uair
Fair
Fsmash
Dsmash

cant we spring out of his forward smash?
Something to test probally considering how stupid fsmash is.

I'm back awake

I'll explain projectiles in a moment lol.


Oh and KID Toon Link goes even with GnW not really a counter.

 

[oOJaseOo]

Any Toon Links up for some wifi?

Hint: I'm in the UK

lolz i would but i havent hooked up my wifi yet

but there is a local tourney down here 21st feb we got some big names comeing (Aiko,Tails chao,ROOOOY! himself oh yes sonic fans,Willz, and there was talk of fuzzyness but he hasnt confirmed i dont think but yea your welcome to come if you can make it just talk to yeniths and ill give ya the link aswell http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204449 aint i ever so nice ^^

I only played him for like two weeks back in.... late May/Early June. So sorry for any incorrect statements.

And yeah. Uair. Forgot about that. Freakin' hurts man.

lolz tis ok mate you didnt wrong me in anyway ^^

 

[iRjOn]

Ok a quick over view of his projectiles.

Boomerang
Try to avoid the returning rang dont shield just get out of the way spring something.
Cause if you shield at high % free grab or we might usmash your shield which pokes shields at times.
If you get hit and we are close either free uair or usmash even fsmash well basically free hit cause it leads into anything we are in the position to do.

Bombs
These will be flying everywhere the hitstun on these lead into alot also. If your above us well at least me idk about everyone else but bombs will fly up and if your hit depending on where you are expect a uair, fair, or usmash.

Arrows this is gonna take a min gotta think.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'd rather get hit for 4% when you're not around than Spring and give you a free U-smash/tilt/air.

 

[Sosuke]

Yess! I didn't miss it!
Sorry for taking so long with this, I forgot that I was going to post in this thread. >_<;


TL Approaching: As said before, TL's Zair is really good. Personally, I don't care about the other characters height. I Zair the same way almost every time (o it cancels when the chain is out at its maximum length). I've never had problems with short characters at all. Zair leads to stuff like grab, Nair (maybe a quick draw after), bomb throw (Toon Link can Zair with a bomb if he air dodges first. Thats why you see a lot of air dodging before Zair) and pretty much other stuff like that. It MIGHT lead to Usmash, but that usually doesn't work on better players. Other approaches TL has are: Short hop Nair-> retreat during the Nair-> quickdraw (If a TL does this, I'm pretty sure you should be able to get up to him while hes quick drawing because Sonics so fast). Run straight past you, Short Hop, Bair (this pretty much means don't drop your shield if he runs past you). Thats all that comes to mind right now.

Sonic approaching: I'm assuming Sonics usually approach with stuff like Spin dash and Side B (whatever its called >_>). And I've been hearing this stuff about how Sonic's weakness is Dtilt? For when Sonic approaches right? =/ Thats sorta dumb. Well, most Toon Links (excluding me ^_^) don't use Dtilt much. So thats not much to worry about I guess? I'm pretty sure you can do a jump during the spin dash, so that might be a good approach? Hitting Toon Link's shield diagonally from the top is pretty much TL's weakness, so do moves that do that. Theres not much he can do about it.

Projectiles: Yeah, well... yeah. Three of them. Whole bunch of stuff can be done with all 3, and they can be used in combination sometimes.

Arrows: Mostly used for arrow cancels. Ex: Nair- > quick draw, Fair, Bair. bomb pull, w/e -> quickdraw. The good news is that Sonics fast enough to get close enough to punish Toon Link for these! The bad news is that you'll get hit by an arrow and take a little damage. But whats that compared to a free grab, tilt or w/e you have the time to use?

Boomerangs: Useful for jsut having something out that can damage whoever hes up against. Doesn't really lead to anything when thrown forward (maaaaaaybe Fair if TLs lucky), but on the way back its like a little "flinch" move. Lets say TL throws a boomerang. You sidestep and run up to him and grab. The boomerang on the way back will hit you, release TL from the grab, and probably give him a free grab or move. Think of the boomerang as a Falco shooting a laser coming towards TL while they're on the same team. The boomerang takes a lot of time to throw and catch, so thats always something to punish.
Oh, and boomerangs go through like everything on the way back, including the stage.

Bombs: Probably the most versatile projectile, as they can be held and thrown and stuff. They have some stun and lead to some stuff blah blah blah. They can be dropped on platforms/ the stage/ and the edge pretty easily if the TL has practice with it.

Killing: TL sucks at killing. Sonic is sorta bad too. Toon Link can Bomb -> Fair or Uair if the set up is right, because bombs actually have some stun. Usmash after Zair works sometimes I suppose, although I don't do it much. Toon Link has this new thing called "invinci-bombing" When he air dodges and drops a bomb at he same time. Since the bomb has stun and Toon Link's invulnerable at the time due to the air dodge, He can use an aerial or maybe Usmash after he approaches you with one of these. This is relatively new, so I don't have much info on it.
TL kills much better vertically then he does horizontally. Keep that in mind

For Sonics killing: idk. Do what you usually do?? Maybe go to stages where its easier to kill horizontally. Sonic's Fsmash and Bair will be essential if you do so.

Random stuff: TL's Dsmash gimps at slanted platforms,
DI-ing out of Sonic's Usmash usually leads to aerials from TL 9probably Dair...).
Teching Sonic's Dthrow = TL Dsmash (at least thats what I do).



This is pretty much all, since I have to go out.
I'll be glad to answer any questions and explain anything when I get back.

 

[oOJaseOo]

for arrows id say try go over em but then we kill upwards so may not be a good idea at high% we tend not to short hop double arrow with faster chars depends how closethey are , our arrow cancel is ussually a follow through from nair,bomb throw, another arrow(SHDA) w/e our arrows have strange propertys in a way cause they float unlike links which fall depending on charge, our arrows have decent gimping ability, oh and we can turn em so even if were not faceing you we can still turn around and shoot ya.

Edit: oh god sasuke beat me to it oh well lolz

 

[iRjOn]

I'd rather get hit for 4% when you're not around than Spring and give you a free U-smash/tilt/air.

If we aren't around we cant follow up...
So just shield it...>.>
I think I said if we are close
:O

Hey its Sasuke
:D

He just said the arrows part...
:3