Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[~ Gheb ~]

I think it's even. Sonics dashgrab is really stupid...he can grab Wolf out of moves other characters can't. And Sonics moves all look the same...how can you observe him? I have no idea how to react to his attacks...his spin moves have a strange startup lag ... I always fear that my shield breaks but I always mess up the timing for the spotdodge too...stupid moves =/
I usually run away and shine if he uses one of his spining moves, that usually works best...oh yeah KOing isn't what sonic is best at, now is he? So its probably 55/45 Wolfs favour.

Besides Arcanine > Haunter so the Wolf board wins this one either way!!!

 

[Kinzer]

No.

While you're argument seems logical, you ruined it by saying *insert pokeymanz here* > Haunter.

Otherwise I still hate fighting Wolves just because I can't spindash or I get punished for donig so with F/DSmash attacks.

 

[da K.I.D.]

arcanine is super beast awesome mode tho...

also, sonic isnt good at killing, but hes GREAT at gimping. and wolf recovery is definitely below average. so the killing problem is kinda negated.

thats pretty much the entire matchup, everything good that one has is negated by some thing the other has.

and against wolf, i stress this more than any other match.

HOLD ON TO THE LEDGE.

shine is a counter/reaction move, so its hard to say "avoid the shine"

wolf i think has more range and a projectile.
sonic has speed(lol) and superior baiting ability

wolf kills earlier but sonic gets them gimps.

i think it comes down to how well sonic handles lazors and how good wolf is at avoiding gimps.

50-50 overall

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, about holding onto the ledge. If you do that past your invincibility (for some strange reason...), you're getting boned by sideB. Also, lasers only interfere with sonic's spinny ground approaches (idk names), but besides that sonic has no issue with it. Gimping, does sonic have anything that goes through sideB easily? I'm thinking uair or fair.

But yeah, this is most likely a very even matchup, as da K.I.D. said, they just keep cancelling eachother out in terms of advantages. Any stage CP thoughts?

COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT: I never understood how homing attack actually works in a fight. I really don't get it, at all. Just saying, wtf, someone please explain to me how the opponent falls for it. Sonic spins in place, just shield or airdodge or gtfo, then punish the ridiculous cooldown, is it really that difficult?

 

[~TBS~]

we wont be blindingly holding onto the ledge, we will insta-edgehog you. I dont understand Wolf's sideB, sometimes it spikes, but it sends them away sometimes. i dont get it. Our Side B has invincible frames at the beginning, but it has NO priority. so almost any attack will go through it...

HA is completely situational. It actually is almost guaranteed to miss. It is something that 1) shouldn't e used often, and 2) only used as an edgeguarding tool, but then its still bound to miss then. It isn't exactly hard to punish him out of the ending animation. It is extremely situational, so we wont use it much.

 

[Kinzer]

I finally updated the write-up for Jiggz on top of page 254... one less write-up to worry about thansk to SM5 for inspiring me to get it done.

Tell me if anything looks wrong with it, this means Sonic/Jiggz mains mainly, and anybody else who happens to be reading it.

 

[Browny]

imo slight advantage to wolf. 40:60 at absolute worst (meaning a Wolf CP stage)

 

[Tenki]

I think it's even. Sonics dashgrab is really stupid...he can grab Wolf out of moves other characters can't. And Sonics moves all look the same...how can you observe him? I have no idea how to react to his attacks...his spin moves have a strange startup lag ... I always fear that my shield breaks but I always mess up the timing for the spotdodge too...stupid moves =/
I usually run away and shine if he uses one of his spining moves, that usually works best...oh yeah KOing isn't what sonic is best at, now is he? So its probably 55/45 Wolfs favour.

Besides Arcanine > Haunter so the Wolf board wins this one either way!!!

Gheb:

You don't have to visually observe Sonic's moves. Regardless of what he does, there's usually an approach rhythm, and if you get Sonic to miss an approach (especially his SH aerials), you can punish the miss. Or you can shield lol.

Don't spotdodge spindash. Pretend you're fighting MK for a sec and remember the caffeinated OoS punishments you'd use to catch MK in his dead time. Except instead of trying to catch Sonic before he can attack with a high priority move, you're trying to catch him before he gets out of range.

For some ideas, check this thread:
How to beat Sonic's bad habits!



@anyone:
It should be given that Sonic's spindashes have like, little to no priority. It's completely a punishment move and should NEVER be discussed as a true approach, but as a bait approach (eg, aerial side-B/down-B > double jump or shield cancel), etc.

@randomnote:
So, Sonic's F-smash outprioritizes Wolf's up-B. It's a rather trivial fact that I picked up playing some Wolf people on wifi. However, I'm going to go ahead and extend it to B-air.
I haven't seen or performed it myself, but I'm going to assume that Sonic can B-air Wolf into or away from the stage if he has to use up-B from below. If not, go ahead and debunk me.

But either way, Wolf should very much avoid getting grabbed from ledge actions, especially things like ledgehopped aerials. Pummel-releases off the edge are evil setups, but they're even more evil if we can grab you out of your double jump.

 

[Zen127]

I'm pretty sure Sonic's D throw can be teched and Dsmashed by Wolf. Lasers can interrupt his side B approaches as well. Sonic has a hard time killing, and I don't even see gimps happening if you were playing a smart wolf. Meanwhile, Wolf kills early, and he's heavy to boot. The only hard time Wolf can have is racking damage with moves besides bair and laser, but hey, Fsmash OoS works as a good punisher for Sonic's D and Usmash.

This match is Wolf's by a slight favor. I'd say 55:45 or maybe even 60:40.

 

[Chis]

The Dsmashing wolf will be shield grabbed. And can't wolf Dsmash be teched too IIRC?

3,000th post.

 

[Kinzer]

Wolf's D-Throw can be teched, however he gets IASA frames on it, which means nothing in this game can punish him after a throw.

Also I can subsitute D-Throw for F-Throw, and problem solved.

The silly tech isn't even worth a mention because it's not going to happen.

 

[tedeth]

Slight advantage to wolf from what i've seen. Nothing worse than 60:40 tho.

 

[Browny]

what (who) have you seen tedeth? are there even any Sonic mains in NSW?

 

[illinialex24]

Umm yeah guys. There is an issue with the Jigglypuff matchup. At the very least you have 2 moves on there that should never be used, and you are completely forgetting DACUS.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Well, no Jigglypuff's will be using Sing, I'll tell you that now. You have to wait til over 100% until the opponent stops waking up before the end of Jigglypuff's singing and punishing her for it haha.

Only marginally more useful than Homing Attack.

I'll update the chart later at:

45:55 v Lucas
40:60 v Dedede
50:50 v Ike (>=o)
50:50 v Jiggz (as nobody can agree numbers)
40:60 v Toon Link

Any objections?

It'd also be cool if someone can do the coding thing for the start of the match-up discussions, as I don't know how to do them/would probably screw them up.

===============

Anyway Wolf:

- Sonic's dtilt > Wolf
- Wolf outranges and outplays Sonic on the ground otherwise
- Sonic has the best of it in the air
- Wolf has massive problems racking up damage, especially with the lahzor being not too helpful against Sonic
-Wolf kills a fair bit earlier than Sonic.
- Sonic gimps Wolf. No ifs and buts about it.

In my opinion it's 50:50. I'd take 45:55, but anything higher then that then the ****'s hitting the fan >=o

(: <3

 

[Tenki]

I'm pretty sure Sonic's D throw can be teched and Dsmashed by Wolf. Lasers can interrupt his side B approaches as well. Sonic has a hard time killing, and I don't even see gimps happening if you were playing a smart wolf. Meanwhile, Wolf kills early, and he's heavy to boot. The only hard time Wolf can have is racking damage with moves besides bair and laser, but hey, Fsmash OoS works as a good punisher for Sonic's D and Usmash.

This match is Wolf's by a slight favor. I'd say 55:45 or maybe even 60:40.

If you mean DI'ing Sonic's D-throw downwards, doing a standing tech and D-smashing, I believe it gets shielded/powershielded if Sonic is holding shield.

I said it once and I'll say it again, SONIC'S SIDE B AND DOWN B ARE FOR PUNISHING LAG OR FOR SETTING UP PUNISHMENTS. Seriously. Side-B approach? Side-B/down-B direct approach is garbage. At the most, I'd use side-B when I'm in hop range, to attack your shield since I can just jump out of the way if you try to grab or do a SH aerial out of shield.

Sonic's D-smash is used as a punishment move - it has faster startup and similar knockback to Sonic's F-smash, and it has a 'lingering hitbox' so we tend to use it to punish spotdodges.

U-smash IMO is a crappy approach for Sonic due to its ending lag (seriously, why punish it with F-smash when you have better moves to use?), but it has its uses as a lingering hitbox for camping peoples' landings or counterattacking SH aerials with its invincibility frames at the beginning.

If you wanna talk about how Wolf punishes moves, talk about moves that are actually used by Sonic to approach.

And can't wolf Dsmash be teched too IIRC?

Wolf has frame advantage so you can't do anything at all lol.

Maybe shield his followup?

Well, no Jigglypuff's will be using Sing, I'll tell you that now. You have to wait til over 100% until the opponent stops waking up before the end of Jigglypuff's singing and punishing her for it haha.

Originally posted here by illinialex24.

Although many people thought sing could setup a free move onstage in a tech near the ledge situation (less options for opponent, best is jab lock tech). However, I was controlling 2 characters in training (CPU set to control). I had Jigglypuff sing and I mashed buttons to see how fast I could get out of it. Consistently, it took me until the opponent was at 200% for Jigglypuff to get a frame advantage on the opponent, where she could attack before they can. Thats worthless.​

Anyway Wolf:

- Sonic's dtilt > Wolf
- Wolf outranges and outplays Sonic on the ground otherwise
- Sonic has the best of it in the air
- Wolf has massive problems racking up damage, especially with the lahzor being not too helpful against Sonic
-Wolf kills a fair bit earlier than Sonic.
- Sonic gimps Wolf. No ifs and buts about it.

In my opinion it's 50:50. I'd take 45:55, but anything higher then that then the ****'s hitting the fan >=o

(: <3

Why was there no talk about Wolf's B-air? ;_;

I'd much rather play a grounded game against Wolf.

 

[da K.I.D.]

in my mind back air is more of an approach, and not as much of a move that wolf uses when he is actually battling sonic in the air.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

It works fine against Sonic in the air. If he uses it he can double jump and do it again. If we spring>dair he can fall fast enough to punish. If we don't he can do a nasty bair bair Fsmash "combo" at low percents, a bair bair Nair at mid and at higher percents a fresher bair can get us off the edge for some more damage courtesy of lasers and that stupid ****ing Fsmash upon landing.

I haven't played a Wolf in god knows how long. He could fight much differently now.

 

[Zen127]

The Dsmashing wolf will be shield grabbed. And can't wolf Dsmash be teched too IIRC?

3,000th post.

Wrong. Sonic is still in his Dthrow animation and Wolf's Dsmash is just as, if not, almost as fast as MK's. He's gonna get KO'd if he Dthrows, which I heard is his best throw.

Wolf's Dthrow can be teched but not punished if the player is ready for it, as Wolf isn't in his Dthrow animation when the victim attempts to tech it. So WOLF can shield grab the techer.

Match up still in Wolf's favor.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

PRETTY sure Sonic can buffer a shield before Wolf can Dsmash.

And Uthrow is better against Heavies.

 

[Kinzer]

Why are we going to be revolving around D-Throw anyway... pretty sure F-Thrown and U-Throw can just as fine. Besides that if nobody knows the silly tech (I mean nobody) We can still go on with it... and it's still useful offstage if we decide not to release you after pummeling you >.>

Alex, I guess I can make a specific mention of it, but I kinda though Dash-Attack and USmash were a part of it. >.>

Roy, I thought Lucas was even.

 

[Tenki]

Wrong. Sonic is still in his Dthrow animation and Wolf's Dsmash is just as, if not, almost as fast as MK's.

Oh, it's as fast, if not, almost as fast as MK's?

Okay good. Because Sonic powershield's MK's buffered D-smash if he holds shield after a D-throw.

thanks for confirming.



edit:
besides, Sonic's U-throw does more damage (12% unstale) and his F-throw sets up for weirder stuff/is faster/rarely DI'd/does more damage than D-throw.

 

[Browny]

ffs let that be the last opst discussing the dthrow. uthrow is better in almost every single aspect anyway.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I dont believe you can Dsmash sonic afterwards.
I was playing terios afterwards and each time he teched a Dthrow, he couldn't follow up with anything that was slower than a jab. @_@

Wolf's Dsmash is 8 frames or so. So I believe you can shield or jab him before it hits. not sure though.

<_<

Screw it just u throw his ***.

 

[aeghrur]

Lol, I feel that SL has just made one step closer to posting like the rest of us.
Either way, I can't believe this whole discussion isn't around Forcing us to approach, and blocking our every approach. Instead, it's around... our d-throws... O_O

 

[A2ZOMG]

And no, you are unlikely to catch Sonic with an upsmash when he is returning to the ground, if the Sonic knows what he's doing. Hold shield as you land, and you airdodge into a shield. I keep on telling people that in most cases its useless to try to hit Sonic out of an autocancelling height dair, the attack needs huge vertical range in order for sonic not to be safe. Your best option is almost always to grab Sonic upon landing, as he can do very little against that except an extremely well timed spot dodge.

I actually punish this all the time. You do something like air dodge to the ground, you have like 2 frames where you are vulnerable. I time the Up-Smash so that it lingers into those 2 frames and then you die.

If you D-air, the goal is to simply hit you before you land.

I've played more G&Ws recently, and I just think its easier, so I don't think theres any point in changing the matchup numbers =/. As my spacing and pivots gets better, I find it way easier to punish G&W startup lag. You'd be really dumb to try to run into charging smashes, as its a virtually instant charge release, but otherwise statup lag is punishable via powershield+grab. Tech chases on G&W also seem easy because of his slow roll.

You haven't played a G&W that shieldcamps correctly then. Sonic literally can't touch G&W at all if he knows how to shieldcamp. Anything he does on G&W's shield gets punished. If G&W needs more time to restore his shield, he can just edgecamp for some time, then get back on stage.

Techchases don't work on G&W if he knows DI.

Go do Bair from whatever, we know what to expect from this broken-arse move so we can do anything we can to avoid the move and punish from a fresh shield which we should always have for that reason. If our shield gets worn-down, we run like the annoying @#$%ers we are. Not to mention G&W has to do so much junk from a neutral position just to punish with Bair, what with having to turn around, jump, and start up the attack. G&W's Bair is so overrated it's ridiculous. If Sonic is one of if not the only character who can run away from Mach Tornado and still be able to punish it isn't something mention-worthy, why is Bair any different?

It isn't let me tell you, they both require a healthy shield to withstand, they're easy to punish if you've been exposed to them time after time, and the only reason neither work is because of the player's incompetance or the-... nevermind, all Sonic's should be keeping their shields up just because.

If you run away, and go near the ledge, and then I B-air you, you get hit.

If you try to punish something, but I anticipate that before hand, you get shut down by B-air and a number of other things like Up-B out of shield, Up-smash, etc, etc. Since you can't punish any of G&W's Smashes on block, your shield won't last forever. You can't edgecamp like G&W can, so you have to go in the air or roll at some point to get away from him before he shield pokes you.

I'm not going to argue about who is going to die sooner since that's player, but I'll just say G&W is paper-weight light... :/

If he DIs well, most of your KO moves don't work reliably until like 140%.

G&W should KO at like 110% easily with a fresh F-air or D-air. He should be surviving to like 160% with Bucket Braking. He only dies early if he spaces SUPER HORRIBLY on a charged F-smash.

But seriously, Sonic doesn't have any good answers to G&W's shieldcamping or edgecamping, while G&W in a few situations can rush down Sonic with the B-air (not always, but the point is G&W has situations where it's safe to do that, while there are really no reliable situations where Sonic can rush down G&W at all). He KOs earlier with pretty much anything. I'm pretty convinced at this point it's one of Sonic's worst matchups by far after solidly beating a fair number of Sonic mains who were able to beat my Mario.

 

[Browny]

go away with your ridiculous % KO numbers. Everyone else is capable of DI'ing well, G&W isnt the only character allowed to do it

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W's KO moves have enough knockback to the point where DI doesn't matter against him. If he knows the percents, which he can get you to easily if he's patient, you just die regardless if you get hit by his KO moves.

For Sonic against G&W, landing enough hits is actually an issue. Moreover, G&W's momentum cancel makes him take hits better than Bowser in several situations.

The way I see it (and the way it has always been for me for the past few months) G&W pretty clearly survives a lot longer than Sonic.

 

[_clinton]

go away with your ridiculous % KO numbers. Everyone else is capable of DI'ing well, G&W isnt the only character allowed to do it

Bucket Break...one of only 3 moves in this game that stop all momentum if used right...Yoshi has one as well (lol at what the other 2 moves are) for one

 

[Kinzer]

You haven't played a G&W that shieldcamps correctly then. Sonic literally can't touch G&W at all if he knows how to shieldcamp. Anything he does on G&W's shield gets punished. If G&W needs more time to restore his shield, he can just edgecamp for some time, then get back on stage.

If you run away, and go near the ledge, and then I B-air you, you get hit.

If you try to punish something, but I anticipate that before hand, you get shut down by B-air and a number of other things like Up-B out of shield, Up-smash, etc, etc. Since you can't punish any of G&W's Smashes on block, your shield won't last forever. You can't edgecamp like G&W can, so you have to go in the air or roll at some point to get away from him before he shield pokes you.

If he DIs well, most of your KO moves don't work reliably until like 140%.

G&W should KO at like 110% easily with a fresh F-air or D-air. He should be surviving to like 160% with Bucket Braking. He only dies early if he spaces SUPER HORRIBLY on a charged F-smash.

But seriously, Sonic doesn't have any good answers to G&W's shieldcamping or edgecamping, while G&W in a few situations can rush down Sonic with the B-air (not always, but the point is G&W has situations where it's safe to do that, while there are really no reliable situations where Sonic can rush down G&W at all). He KOs earlier with pretty much anything. I'm pretty convinced at this point it's one of Sonic's worst matchups by far after solidly beating a fair number of Sonic mains who were able to beat my Mario.

G&W's KO moves have enough knockback to the point where DI doesn't matter against him. If he knows the percents, which he can get you to easily if he's patient, you just die regardless if you get hit by his KO moves.

For Sonic against G&W, landing enough hits is actually an issue.

The way I see it (and the way it has always been for me for the past few months) G&W pretty clearly survives a lot longer than Sonic.

They haven't played me either than I guess... anybody can be in the neutral position at the start of the match... I know better than to approach G&W because of his tools, and I have no reason to approach with that mindset... not to mention G&W can't going to force one, I happen to be very patient. (Bacon does not count, it is slow, and too easy to punish with FTilt)

LOL insta-edgehog and G&W approaching me or jumping offstage/out of the way to let him whiff his Bair... C'mon man, both characters can play gay, why would G&W be any different? His Bair isn't THAT long.

IF, the keyword... you won't do it right everytime, and even matchup discussions have their limits on how far both characters can be perfect. BTW I have been able to punish G&W's attacks... perhaps the player was not frame perfect, but it's somewhere close, I've done it, and you cannot disprove that no matter how hard you want to try without having to get frame data ofr a helluva lot of things... besides that, punishing is one thing, but being able to react with things like an Up-B, be it out of shield or not, have to wait for things like... oh I dunno... Lag? Deadframes exist, and Sonic players always work to find them because they can only do so in this short timeframes.

Again, IF! I doubt they'll get it dead-on all the time, and besides that, there's only so long before you get pinned, like say you get FSmashed near the end of the 2nd stage of Castle Siege... I'd like to see you DI that. It's not always going to be on Final Destination from the other side.

Both character can live at the same percent, G&W isn't the only character with a a momentum-killing move. BTW unless I'm really screwing up, I don't ever see my opponents live past 150%, in which case I'd just play to rack-up damage to post 200%, and go for the grab... U-throw kills in that range... however that shouldn't even be happening... unless as I've already said, I screw up bigtime. Yes I'm willing to admit I mess up here and then.

Not approaching is one way to answer it.G&W's shield can be poked. I'm not convinced unless you make names, in which case nobody has probably heard anything about anybody. He may have an easier time with K.O.s, that which I cannot deny, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen all the time, and I also explained why Sonic is going to be living longer than G&W unless somehow he happens to land an USmash (not going to happen every other second -_-).

Sure, if I can get you at the ~110% range, G&W won't be able to live to my Forward smashes either! ^_^ Again Sonic players can play campy if they want to, contrary to popular belief.

It could or it couldn't be, but personally I see little trouble to it thanks my multiple experience with very good G&W players... I can always pick up on G&W's deadtime in which he can't do anything, I assume other Sonic and G&W players alike would do the same thing if they wanted to get anywhere in tourneys.

Well now I hope you realise that Sonic is G&W but heavier. The only reason he would be dying any sooner than G&W, is because he fell into some stupid junk... I haven't been killed by an USmash iv forever, it's always DSmash because it has more range... but man how easy is it to land a FTilt OoS when you get hit by a Dsmash, huh? It's funny because most of the G&W players I face get so scared of me that they release the attacks as I get to them, but I always put up a shield, and my PSing against G&W has gotten so phenominal, that unless it's a Dair/Bair, I won't really have any trouble. :D

 

[_clinton]

G&W isn't the only character with a a momentum-killing move.

Hey how is it going?
Well as far as recovery goes...the only other special moves that work like his are Yoshi's Egg Roll and DK's Uspecial...

 

[Kinzer]

It's going great.

And I should make a specific mention of it too By the way.

Sonic's Down-B.

 

[_clinton]

Are you sure Sonic's Dspecial stops it? I mean I used to think Magnet did the same thing...and even tried some things with Thunder...but they didn't end well ^_^

I guess I might as well go check...

 

[Kinzer]

You can go check.

Both Sonic's down-B Spin Charge and his Side-B Spin Dash will stop knockback momentum.

Although you actually have to have a charge on Diwn-B, or else it won't work.

 

[Chis]

Clinton, we know about bucket breaking since a Sonic board member found it....

 

[_clinton]

Clinton, we know about bucket breaking since a Sonic board member found it....

Neat...Well sorry Bucket Breaking isn't new to me but Sonic having something like it was (Which is another thing I add to the list of things Side B does better then Down B)

 

[Kinzer]

Actually Down-B is better for momentum-canceling... granted not by much, but a little can go a long way.

Also Chis Down-B momentum-braking was only recently discovcered by Infzy.

 

[Chis]

I know Kinzer.

 

[Kinzer]

Then why did you not mention him in specific? Besides that, Clinton didn't know, so I just enlightened him, you didn't have to let him know aagin because I already informed him of it. >.>

 

[Chis]

Clinton my not have known that Infzy was a Sonic main.