Snake vs. Lucario

[phi1ny3]

*looks at posts*

bah, Floridians, humbug, Junebug beat CO18 w/ Lucario (and that's impossible even on one match lol)

*leaves before flames*

nonetheless, snake is mega-hard, you've got lucario's juggling and punish game v. Snake's superior control of options, damage racking, and killpower to weight ratio.
lucarios need to be in the air more often for this MU imo (at least for the beginning -> middle %'s), stuffs safe until you want to come back down, then it's annoying.

Snake oos is dumb and really good against lots of lucario stuff.

It's incredibly dumb, and I hope this MU improves.
65:35

 

[AfroQT]

ROFL i know that i probably SHOULDNT post this but i think its hilarious.

I definitely lost to a lucario at MLG, he was mad good though haha.
(still think the Mu is terrible for lucario though)

 

[Toneh]

ROFL i know that i probably SHOULDNT post this but i think its hilarious.

I definitely lost to a lucario at MLG, he was mad good though haha.
(still think the Mu is terrible for lucario though)

its w/e we have no lucarios in FL. Was it close or did you get wreckeddd

 

[gallax]

afro didnt use snake though. he used a bad char vs kirby. dont let him fool you. theres no way he coulda lsot to a lucario with snake.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

lol I hate this matchup sometimes and other times its fun. I play a good Lucario regularly so...

- Learn to Powershield in this matchup, its invaluable.

- At high percents F-Smash is less punishable than you think it is. Be very careful punishing this even if you've powershielded it. The ending lag is pretty low.

- Don't challenge Lucario's Down Air: You will lose. In fact just get away from it, it goes through shields like no tomorrow.

- If you find yourself getting jab comboed at high percents avoid spotdodging as Force Palm stays out long enough to smack you regardless.

- Keep that Up-Tilt fresh till around 120% ish. You'll want to kill Lucario as early as possible. Anything over 150% and he's extremely dangerous.

- Lucario has a legit Glide Toss.

- Tech chasing also helps here.

- Don't let Lucario get above you in the air either.

- F-Tilt is handy in this matchup as always.

- Consider using D-Tilt. It has good range and can punish Lucario's mistakes. Most will never see it coming.

Hey Tech, how's things?

As Snake you have to get us in really close range. You can force us to approach with your Nades, but be careful we don't get to easily snipe you.

Aura Spheres 12% and above will blow up thrown Grenades.

Lucario gets IASA frames in his FSmash.

If you can Powershield our FSmashes then FTilt awayyyyyy.

Also, perfect shield SDI helps with the FTilts there too.

You have to alomost perfectly boost grab our roll from your down throw to grab us again. Throw in a few mind games and you'll have a hard time regrabbing us.

Snake's USmash sometimes helps against our DAir.

Just my two cents.

 

[Attila_]

I know you can SDI it, but I don't know if I'm doing it on reaction or just on instinct. When Lucario's dair, it's super obvious.

can we sdi into anything? im assuming we sdi up and away...

Snake oos is dumb and really good against lots of lucario stuff.

this made me laugh.

 

[Bizkit047]

ROFL i know that i probably SHOULDNT post this but i think its hilarious.

I definitely lost to a lucario at MLG, he was mad good though haha.
(still think the Mu is terrible for lucario though)

I watched your set vs him. Too many sidesteps in front of Lucario, you'll eat fsmashes all day that way. Shield > Lucario. I believe it's probably like 60:40 Snake. I've played him multiple times, he beat me the first time I played him, but then I won the last 3 sets. He's deff legit though, but I could tell you didn't know what you were doing in the matchup.

 

[UltimateRazer]

me vs trela on saturday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Fgd5mJ26I

 

[AfroQT]

I watched your set vs him. Too many sidesteps in front of Lucario, you'll eat fsmashes all day that way. Shield > Lucario. I believe it's probably like 60:40 Snake. I've played him multiple times, he beat me the first time I played him, but then I won the last 3 sets. He's deff legit though, but I could tell you didn't know what you were doing in the matchup.

Cant win em all He was good though.
I still think Snake ***** Lucario. Im just not good at the matchup myself.

 

[theONEjanitor]

this matchup is annoying on both sides.

but what I've learned is
A. you can't outcamp him. you have to get in close on him and try to read a roll or punish a mistake. he'll throw stuff at you from across the screen which will interrupt your nade pulls.

B. I don't ever even bother trying to punish f-smash. if I shield one. i usually just jump or roll away and reset my position. if you're close enough a good thing to try is to roll behind lucario and grab or hit him.

C. you can't really punish rolls on reaction, they're too fast and go too far. you have to pretty much predict it. or just don't worry about it.

really patience is the key in this matchup. and getting early kills. if you get that down its kind of easy. lucario can't do anything to you that you don't let him do. the only thing lucario can do to snake is run away from you and hope you make a mistake. so, don't make mistakes lol. also, stay out of the air. but you're snake you shouldn't be in the air anyway. and i would cut down on the spotdodging

 

[Bizkit047]

but what I've learned is
A. you can't outcamp him. you have to get in close on him and try to read a roll or punish a mistake. he'll throw stuff at you from across the screen which will interrupt your nade pulls.

......Uh...Do you know how slow aura sphere is? Lucario has two options. Throw charged Aura Spheres super slow across the stage, or spam small uncharged spheres constantly. Both are slow enough to pull out nades in between pretty easily and jump toss them. I don't see how Lucario can possibly ever outcamp Snake.

B. I don't ever even bother trying to punish f-smash. if I shield one. i usually just jump or roll away and reset my position. if you're close enough a good thing to try is to roll behind lucario and grab or hit him.

The best thing to do about Lucario's fsmash is to powershield it. It's a free tilt or grab. If you don't powershield it, you're gambling getting punished yourself. Rolling behind Lucario isn't a viable option IMO, it will get read by smart players. You may pull it off once, but that's about it. Lucarios may go for another fsmash after the first one, so don't go rush into a whiffed fsmash thinking you're safe. And NEVER sidestep it. It is far too risky. The extended hitboxes means you have to time it very well, and messing up could easily cost you a stock.

So small version, powershield to punish if you can, otherwise I'd suggest probably backing off if you don't.

C. you can't really punish rolls on reaction, they're too fast and go too far. you have to pretty much predict it. or just don't worry about it.

It's not 100% unpunishable on reaction. It's just very hard to. If you're expecting it, you can probably react to it with good reaction speeds. As Snake, I like to jab the opposite direction right before one if I don't think I can react to it. Dair is another viable option, unless you're playing someone who knows how to SDI out of Dair consistently.

really patience is the key in this matchup. and getting early kills. if you get that down its kind of easy. lucario can't do anything to you that you don't let him do. the only thing lucario can do to snake is run away from you and hope you make a mistake. so, don't make mistakes lol. also, stay out of the air. but you're snake you shouldn't be in the air anyway. and i would cut down on the spotdodging

Most of this is right, though. Kill Lucario first and you get a chance to get a pretty good lead. However, due to Lucarios mechanics of his attacks, he can ALWAYS make a comeback even if you take an early stock. The character was made for comebacks. After taking that first stock, you have to try to take the other before dying. Never forget how strong Lucario gets when he falls behind, he can wrack damage up insanely well in a single combo.

 

[phi1ny3]

can we sdi into anything? im assuming we sdi up and away...



this made me laugh.

Whaaaaa-ut?

c'mon, throw me a bone, Lucario doesn't have as great of shield pressure while avoiding certain things as, say Marth or MK, which definitely do make snake's oos seem significantly weaker (that frame 8 grab can really come back to bite snake when trying to punish bad/predictable aerials or spacing). Am I missing something?

 

[Limeee]

snake has **** OoS options
what is he gonna do? backair? LOL

 

[theONEjanitor]

......Uh...Do you know how slow aura sphere is? Lucario has two options. Throw charged Aura Spheres super slow across the stage, or spam small uncharged spheres constantly. Both are slow enough to pull out nades in between pretty easily and jump toss them. I don't see how Lucario can possibly ever outcamp Snake.

depending on the stage and the lucario's sense of spacing. aura spheres can really screw you up. it becomes a game of chicken i.e who's gonna try to throw some **** first.
you can't pull a grenade and throw it without getting hit by or having to shield an aura sphere in between as far as i can tell, if the lucario is spamming them. unless you're like opposite end of fd or sommin

and with that stupid roll and his aerial dominance its not too hard for lucario to get away from you if you get near him. its just requires snake to make his hits count and get some good reads in

but really this match up is kind of easy if you're patient. just shield everything and punish his mistakes/windown lag.

personally i don't bother trying to punish fsmash or rolls.
better players are better at doing this than i am.

 

[phi1ny3]

snake has **** OoS options
what is he gonna do? backair? LOL

tell me why I can't pressure his shield w/ aerials safely at high percent

I'll give you a hint, it's got a big hitbox, and it looks like a giant **** coming at you.

Snake's is subpar, but in this MU, he can punish tons of lucario stuff because Lucario's frame data is relatively UNDERwhelming. Reading it out of context, I can see why people are getting the wrong idea, but against certain bad close fighting characters, it's a different story.

Snake shield -> ftilt against lucario fsmash, dtilt, jab, and ftilt all dai

snake shield -> utilt when lucario's on the ledge getting back onto the stage/trying to pressure w/ aerials

don't forget lucario's subpar grab range when trying to punish landings/tilts.

and then there's grenade drops which can be annoying unless you space carefully certain given attacks.

tl;dr snake's oos is subpar for his tier

against lucario, not so much.

edit: Okay, if you mean literally "ooS" then I can see where you're going with this, bad jump, no upB oos, and slower shieldgrab means obv. less lol

 

[Limeee]

ya i meant "literally OoS"

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah that's pretty understandable for the above mentioned reasons lol.

Another note worth considering, the most annoying thing about this MU from Lucario's end is that I have no clue where to take snake rofl. Most stages that extend lucario's life also make snake equally as annoying to kill, frigate doesn't help much because while lucario's recovery is boosted well here (can wallcling on every ledge lol), snake isn't really hampered in recovery (main reason lucarios pick this stage), and grenade camping can be hard to see (I always hate mentioning something this trivial, but it really does affect outcomes at times), plus the second transformation is really good for snake.

My only ideas for CP are YI, Castle Siege, and maybe Delphino (I really hate the blastzones/ceiling on this stage though), and all of these sound iffy against Snake depending on how they play.

 

[Underload]

Take Snake to Japes. Always.

 

[Limeee]

japes actually sounds like a really good stage for lucario in this match up

good f-smash kills, living forever as lucario, campy, floaty so you don't get ****ed by water

thank god i know what to ban against lucario now

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, except that stage is usually banned in my region/state X_X

edit: might know another one that'd be pretty good, if it's BBR, there's always Luigi's Mansion (assuming the TO agrees to use their extended stagelist lol)

 

[theONEjanitor]

lol @ japes banned but luigi's not

but yeah apparently japes is lucarios best cp stage.
that's another of lucario's weaknesses is that he doesn't really have any good cp stages

 

[phi1ny3]

Luigi's is banned too where I'm from

just another idea for more liberal stagelists out there

The problem is all the things lucario wants snake also benefits largely from.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In that situaiton, you go with what you feel most comfortable in. Stage experience is ever the equal in determing matches as merely the stage itself.

 

[K290]

depending on the stage and the lucario's sense of spacing. aura spheres can really screw you up. it becomes a game of chicken i.e who's gonna try to throw some **** first.

I always spam nitikas in this MU. They absorb aura spheres. Fully charged spheres take to long to charge and it is to easy to set the nikita back on course in that time. The lesser charged ones barely move it.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

just don't die first. that is all

 

[Toneh]

I always spam nitikas in this MU. They absorb aura spheres. Fully charged spheres take to long to charge and it is to easy to set the nikita back on course in that time. The lesser charged ones barely move it.

Spamming nikita's and down tilts is the way to go. Im surprised most snakes dont do it

 

[gallax]

Im surprised people still use lucario vs snake. Thats such a ******** MU. Snakes should always win.

 

[phi1ny3]

Once again another Floridian that doesn't know what happens when Junebug/Trela fight Snakes.

Spoiler

jk, but seriously, the last two FL players who thought this char was easy lost to Junebug...

Used to have a huuuuuge problem with this MU, not so much anymore.

It's definitely tough, but manageable (like a good chunk of Lucario's MUs on A and S tier lol).

This also happens to be the character I like most if I'm forced to play another Lucario player (that and ICs, don't ask why).

 

[gallax]

Once again another Floridian that doesn't know what happens when Junebug/Trela fight Snakes.

I may not know Junebug/Trela but i do know lee martin :/

 

[phi1ny3]

Lee's pretty good I'll admit, definitely a top Lucario

but he picks Lucario for the MUs HE wants to play Lucario for.

MUs like Marth he thinks are even, whereas he says Lucario has a significantly large disadvantage on chars like Diddy Kong, Snake (and for awhile ICs). He's probably a far better MK than he is in Lucario (except in doubles, his Lucario is pretty unparalleled in that field).

Lots of other pro lucarios aren't probably up to his skill playerwise, but by the same merit have learned to work through all of his MUs. Even D3 has been deemed "doable", Junebug's recent wins against CO18 and Atomsk (who I know has ample Lucario exp.) are good indicators of this. Junebug also plays Candy and Takeover on a regular basis, and although he hates the MU does very well as Lucario against them.

although Snake is agreeably tough, I still say it's probably 40:60, maybe 35:65 imo (if I had to stick a number on it that was only in increments of 10, I'd lean towards 40:60 though). I still don't know where to take him yet, so I personally just do BF or Pictochat (if it's allowed in my region, usually isn't), and on a more liberal scale, Japes.

 

[ksizl4life]

Lee's pretty good I'll admit, definitely a top Lucario

but he picks Lucario for the MUs HE wants to play Lucario for.

MUs like Marth he thinks are even, whereas he says Lucario has a significantly large disadvantage on chars like Diddy Kong, Snake (and for awhile ICs). He's probably a far better MK than he is in Lucario (except in doubles, his Lucario is pretty unparalleled in that field).

Lots of other pro lucarios aren't probably up to his skill playerwise, but by the same merit have learned to work through all of his MUs. Even D3 has been deemed "doable", Junebug's recent wins against CO18 and Atomsk (who I know has ample Lucario exp.) are good indicators of this. Junebug also plays Candy and Takeover on a regular basis, and although he hates the MU does very well as Lucario against them.

although Snake is agreeably tough, I still say it's probably 40:60, maybe 35:65 imo (if I had to stick a number on it that was only in increments of 10, I'd lean towards 40:60 though). I still don't know where to take him yet, so I personally just do BF or Pictochat (if it's allowed in my region, usually isn't), and on a more liberal scale, Japes.

It doesn't matter if Lee only uses Lucario for matchups he wants to. If he wanted to, he can go all Lucario and have a big chance of doing the same thing as going MK. Why would Lee give himself a lower chance of winning by using Lucario when MK doesn't lose any matchups?

That's why he does it. That's why I do it. We take advantage of people not knowing how lucario works and not knowing the matchup.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I always spam nitikas in this MU. They absorb aura spheres. Fully charged spheres take to long to charge and it is to easy to set the nikita back on course in that time. The lesser charged ones barely move it.

um why am i just being informed of this lol

 

[phi1ny3]

@ksizl I'm just a little disenchanted from the logic that Lee changes, therefore it must be a really bad MU. He hardly plays Lucario, and it seems to be more or less on a whim. Never pulls Luc out on Diddy when that's a pretty tied up even MU when you see Trela, Zucco, and JB play it, or on Snake, or on several others. Not only that, when he's playing it up on an "easy" mu for Lucario, he'll often switch when he's losing (like Lee v. ESAM, even though Lucario is arguably easier to use against Pika than MK, or Brood). I just want to clarify that Lee switching =/= bad MU directly, just a hard MU for Lee and he plays to win (which is by all means the smart thing to do), but it doesn't suit an argument well to say that it's good/bad because Lee's picking thinks so.

also, best edgehog ever = planting a mine near the edge -> edgehogging if they didn't DI your throw/ftilt right and they recover low. Guaranteed damage is too good.

 

[Zucco]

Once again another Floridian that doesn't know what happens when Junebug/Trela fight Snakes.

MENTION ME YOU ****.

I do good vs snake. Ally was scared to play me at mlg. **** those TVs though.

 

[phi1ny3]

MENTION ME YOU ****.

I do good vs snake. Ally was scared to play me at mlg. **** those TVs though.

Oh yeah, didn't you go last hit v. Ally @ MLG Columbus/Apex, or were those friendlies?

 

[Zucco]

Went last hit at a Local NJ tourney. Tripped when I was about to win game 1.

 

[jbandrew]

Why does FL think that Snake ***** Lucario so hard??

AS goes through nades when he's at high percents, and his aura balls give our sheild stun, which deters us from camping at ease. FL lacks good Lucarios... come to NJ or MD/VA or even TX.

Junebug/Zucco/Ksizzle/Lee Martin would like to have a word with you.

 

[SuSa]

Because Snake does **** Lucario, learn the matchup.

 

[jbandrew]

Because Snake does **** Lucario, learn the matchup.

I do believe he wins favorably. 60 40. But definitely not 65 35 or 70 30 as FL states.

 

[SuSa]

Okay, that's just stupid.

Because both use numbers.

It's an advantage (for Snake) nothingmore. nothing less.

Numbers are stupid.