Snake: Official Character Discussion

[KishSquared]

Discussion for Snake. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:
Reduce weight (TheCape[.95], LG386, Kish2[.95])

Default Physics:
SH: .95
FH: 1.4
FF: 1.2
DGrav: 1.175
Grav: 1.050

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:
Jab: Less KB (The Cape[.8], LG386, Kish2)
Utilt: Less KB (The Cape[.8], LG386, Kish2)
Dair: Less Landing Lag (Chibo)
Bair: Less Landing Lag (Chibo)

Anything else:
Ftilt physics (LG386, Chibo, Kish2)
Eliminate Up-B grab gimp (Chibo)

 

[The Cape]

Slightly lighter weight
Less knockback to U tilt

His physics are good where they are. His U tilt with its insane hitbox kills way too easy, reduce the knockback on it a bit.
The slightly lighter weight will also help to kill Snake as once of his biggest weaknesses right now is his recovery and we should work to make it a bit easier to knock him off.

Edit:
AAA combo needs less knockback on last hit.

 

[leafgreen386]

Seconding both of cape's suggestions. The utilt probably shouldn't be killing for a good extra 30% or so from where it does now.

Snake is supposed to be a heavyweight, so we can't reduce it too much, but I think we could drop it a little bit. I actually hadn't even thought about the idea of reducing his weight until reading it just now.

The only other move in question then would be... ftilt. I'm not sure if we need to do anything to this move... yet. A fixed teching window should remedy the ftilt lock problem, so that won't be an issue anymore. It's still a very good move, but the utilt and weight nerfs might be all he needs.

 

[KishSquared]

Let's talk specific values. How much less should he weigh? And how much reduced KB to those moves?

 

[The Cape]

Thinking about 20% to both less.

Weight, maybe about 5-10% less, just make him a bit easier to kill.

 

[Almas]

Looks like y'all will need that knockback reduction code - guess I can't get away with not doing it. I've got a couple ideas, I'll try making it either tomorrow night or night after.

 

[kupo15]

Looks like y'all will need that knockback reduction code - guess I can't get away with not doing it. I've got a couple ideas, I'll try making it either tomorrow night or night after.

Pw has a beta version of that don't forget. Maybe it would be easier if you branch off of his work. Just a thought but thanks almas!

 

[CT Chia]

Fix the ftilt-semi lock i mentioned in the other thread

perhaps try and get rid of the grab gimp on snakes upB

maybe give him less landing lag on his fair bair and dair?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I'm not sure we should be buffing Snake. Giving him less landing lag on such powerful aerials (especially ones that come out fast like bair and dair) doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

I agree with the uptilt and jab reductions. The f-tilt problem should fix itself with an increased teching window, but in the meantime we should fix it anyway. I don't agree with decreasing his weight. It really doesn't seem like it's necessary, since the only problem with Snake is a few broken moves. Once we nerf those then I don't see what's so broken about living a long time just like any other heavyweight.

 

[The Cape]

I tried to find that F tilt lock with Snake yesterday. I am aware of the one from vBrawl, but this one it was REALLY easy to DI out or just tech it. With a better teching window it makes it even easier to escape. Chibo, I would like to see a video of this thing to ensure that I am doing it right, but if its what I think it is then it really is nothing to worry about.

 

[kupo15]

yea the ftilt lock really isn't anything to worry about. Its actually worse now than it was in vb

 

[leafgreen386]

Snake's dair is already great at comboing. Why do we want to make it a great approach, too?

 

[kupo15]

snake shouldnt get any buffs imo.

 

[leafgreen386]

On a completely unrelated note, I think these character discussion threads should be titled "<Character> Official Discussion" rather than "Official Character Discussion: <Character>". You can't tell which character thread was posted in if you're in the custom smash projects forum lol

 

[The Cape]

I think Leaf presents a good point, something good for us to do here.

For all the threads:
Do we have everything agreed upon for these characters such that we would be able to move on to more?

 

[KishSquared]

Updated.

I'll create new threads when I have time today, it seems that we've locked these down pretty well.

 

[goodoldganon]

Well it looks like Snake is next on the chopping block like MK, so I wanted to post here so we can go about these nerfs in a better fashion then MK. For better or worse MK received two MORE nerfs in the newest Beta set and we really didn't have any form of a vote in it. Let's face it, nerfing has to happen, but we need to go about it in as tactful way as possible.

So now that that is out of the way we can discuss Snake. Before we begin I feel I need to mention that above all else we need to protect Snake as the unique character he is. Not only was he the first 3rd party character added to Smash, no character plays quite like him. Between grenades, mines, C4, his awkward smash attacks, his tilts, and his Snake Dash there truly is no character that feels anything like him. Above all else I believe we need to think of the character first and foremost. The BR has proven to me when we sit down and think about it, we can come up with some really cool and creative ways to fix characters. (Yoshi's insta-shield or Bowser Don't Care)

Now, before I begin I am going to assume that we believe Snake needs a nerf. I'm not 100% sold on any form of a serious nerf, but I will do my best to come up with reasonable nerf ideas. Now lets see the popular nerf ideas...

1) His jab and tilts are too strong!

I can kind of agree, but these are Snake's bread and butter moves. We have to be very careful with what we do to them. First off, his jab isn't all that great, it's 2 am so I'm not gonna do any extensive testing ATM but it's not killing at absurd percentages. Not only can you DI out of the third hit if you are quick, DIing up can significantly increase ones life.

Now the F-tilt is Snakes GTFO of me. It has great reach, damage, and priority. This move could probably be considered too good, but at the moment it is sort of broken. On one hand you can semi-lock people with the first hit and once they figure out to SDI out of it you can usually just hit with the knee then go into a d-tilt, an u-tilt, or sometimes a C4 stick if place perfectly. Nerfing the second hits knockback seems like a reasonable way to keep the move as a strong GTFO of me move, but I'd like to see the first hit fixed if at all possible.

The U-tilt is the bane of all Snake's opponents and rightfully so. The move has the most bizarre hitbox.

I'm 99% sure we can't adjust hitboxes so it seems the best way to nerf this attack would be to nerf the knockback. Problem is that then the move becomes a more reliable combo attack, especially into the N-air. Once again, it's late but believe me when I say it is a WHOPPING amount of damage. Also, we lack Star KOs in this game. It seems like a poor reason, but the U-tilt allows for a greater diversity in kills.

As you can see it's a tricky road to go about nerfing Snake because nerfing moves might end up giving him new tools to continue fighting with...

2. Let's nerf his weight!

Here is a nerf I can get behind. I'm not dedicated enough to find our new weight lists since the gravity changes but I'd be willing to throw 5 dollars down saying Snake is the heaviest character (on an average of vertical and horizontal weight.) Is it possible to add him to Flimsy Armor code? Either way, Snake shouldn't be heavier then DK, Ganondorf, D3, or Bowser, let alone be the heaviest character in the game. It needs to be fixed.



Long story short, I think Snake's moveset is fine. Snake has some hard counters now a days thanks to hitstun and the ease in juggling him. Also, his Cypher is affected by momentum and the faster fall speeds make the Cypher do a big dip before going up. Add that with his recovery that SCREAMS spike bait and the fact you can just grab it from him and his recovery seems a lot less powerful. I do have a problem with Snake's weight and we need to address that.

Last but not least I offer a 'different' suggestion to go about nerfing Snake. What if we give him stale moves again? Most of Snake's attacks are 'hit it and quit it' so his combo game shouldn't be affected too much. The foreseeable problem comes from the u-tilt, but we can change the actual percentage it deals, leaving the KB alone. I feel this goes along with Snakes 'intelligent' style of play. Much like in MGS acting rashly on the battlefield will surely result in death for Snake.

 

[leafgreen386]

I actually don't think knockback really needs that much adjusting. I would rather nerf his damage output. His tilts are so ridiculous because they hit you once and deal large damage with a good hitbox, and then at high percents, they kill you. So... just make it so that at high percents they kill you and have a good hitbox. The move is still useful, but snake won't get nearly as much reward for landing it at non-killing percents.

I can also agree with lowering his weight slightly.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ya, someone finally read my post. Was worried I wasted time. Lowering the actual percentages he deals seems reasonable. I'll look into getting the numbers on his attacks and we can adjust him accordingly.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm in agreement that Snake is quite powerful, and can stand to lose a nerf. The main concern with Snake is that his damage out put offsets his ability to live to absurd percents.

Snake is fine right now, including his distorted tilts. The best solution to keep his character is to give him a small reduction in damage out put for his moves, and make him die earlier. Maybe 5%, 10% at most. I believe this will fix him.

I wouldn't recommend any other changes.

 

[Ulevo]

Jab - 4%, 3%, 7% / 14%

Dash attack - 11%

Ftilt - 18%

Utilt - 13%

Dtilt - 10%

Dsmash - 14% uncharged, 19% fully charged

Fsmash - 22% uncharged, 30% fully charged

Usmash - 4% first hit box, 10% second hit box (charge only increases hit box distance)

Cypher - 6%

Grenade - Explosion 12%, Nthrow 2%, Fthrow 4%, Bthrow 3%, Dthrow 3%, Uthrow 2%

Nikita - Armed 14%, Dud 7%

Fthrow - 9%

Bthrow - 9%

Uthrow - 10%

Dthrow - 12%

Grab hit - 2%

Nair - 6%, 5%, 4%, 13%/ 28%

Fair - 14%

Bair - 14%

Uair - 14%

Dair - 6%, 5%, 5%, 12%/ 28%


My recommended changes:


Jab - 4%, 3%, 5% / 12%

Dash attack - 10%

Ftilt - 14%

Utilt - 12%

Dtilt - 10%

Dsmash - 14% uncharged, 19% fully charged

Fsmash - 22% uncharged, 30% fully charged

Usmash - 4% first hit box, 10% second hit box (charge only increases hit box distance)

Cypher - 6%

Grenade - Explosion 10%, Nthrow 2%, Fthrow 4%, Bthrow 3%, Dthrow 3%, Uthrow 2%

Nikita - Armed 14%, Dud 7%

Fthrow - 8%

Bthrow - 8%

Uthrow - 10%

Dthrow - 8%

Grab hit - 2%

Nair - 5%, 5%, 4%, 6%/ 20%

Fair - 12%

Bair - 12%

Uair - 12%

Dair - 4%, 4%, 4%, 8%/ 20%


This, along with a 5% flimsy armor code like Meta Knight has now should be more than enough to keep Snake in check. Also, I think increasing his short hop slightly in order to allow him to do lagless Uairs again would be good.

 

[goodoldganon]

Thanks for doing that. I can't get the TV today for some reason so sorry I made you get it. The changes all seem fine to me.

 

[leafgreen386]

Those changes sound good. Very reasonable, I think.

I would like to see ftilt at 13% and utilt at 11%, though, personally.

The sh thing sounds fine, too.

edit: 3 lines and my sig still doesn't show? What's up with that? lol - Ah, there it is.

 

[The Cape]

Interesting ideas:

Make AAA have less KB and link together better. Make them work like a regular AAA combo and have KB at 0 similar to Mario's AAA combo at 100%

F tilt we can make it do less damage

U tilt give it less KB and also speed up the frames where it has a hitbox (so they arent out as long)

These are some interesting ideas I came across that we might consider. Some frame data to help as well:

Snake:
AAA:
Hit: 3-5
IASA: 11
Total frames: 23

Hit: 4-6
IASA: 7
Total: 25

Hit: 10-13
IASA:
Total: 51

F tilt:

Hit: 4-6
IASA: 11
Total: 32

Hit: 6-7
IASA:
Total: 45

U tilt:
Hit: 6-14
IASA:
Total: 38

 

[Revven]

Actually Cape, how about making Utilt do less damage as well? We don't really have that many Star KOs anymore and Snake's Utilt was kinda nerfed from that department as well (since down gravity on most of the cast affects vertical KOs). If we lessen the damage, then the KB is fine. How much does the Utilt do now at the moment?

I'm looking at this as you would for Samus' charged shot.

 

[The Cape]

U tilt does 12% and I like that idea SMK. Make it do 10%?

How about the AAA, forward tilt, and the speed of the U tilt suggestions?

Also, third A in AAA do 4% instead of 7?

 

[Revven]

Making it do 10% sounds pretty good to me. As far as the speeds go, I think Ftilt could stand to be a little slower on the first hit, that **** is too fast atm and pressures shields real bad. Making AAA link better sounds good to me, you can always DI the first two hits to get out before getting hit from the last hit. It also nerfs it without having to nerf the last hit's KB.

 

[Yeroc]

Here's an idea. We should test to see how many hitboxes there are in the move. It looks like there should be several, hopefully it's not just one gigantic one. If it is indeed multiple boxes, we can effectively remove that absurdly far out one by changing the damage and kb to 0.

 

[The Cape]

O.O

Yeroc, you are a genius. Come visit me. I shall hug you

 

[leafgreen386]

Yeroc, if this ends up working, then you are awesome. The problem is I doubt it's split up into convenient chunks, and this could drastically affect the move. I'm afraid that it actually is just one big hitbox out front and probably has an accompanying back hitbox.

Also, guys, ulevo already looked up all the damage moves do and made suggestions to reduce them. Did you miss that post or something?

I don't think snake needs any kb changes except on his third jab. Most of his moves just need decreased damage and he needs slightly reduced weight.

 

[Yeroc]

Yeah, it's not working. Seems as if there's a hitbox for his foot, and one for the rest of him plus that ungodly sphere surrounding him. for that portion I'd argue a slight KB decrease, and maybe a very, very slight increase on the other hitbox as incentive for using it to kill instead of the big part of the move. Make it like most other utilt hitboxes or something.

 

[MuBa]

Yeesh this thread's been dead for a long time now.

Alright here are some changes I think should be implemented:

TheCape's faster Fair.

Faster Box taunt

Able to get out of Cypher quicker.

His own grenades do half damage and KB to him.

Faster charged Upsmash.

Yep....good enough XD

 

[JCaesar]

Pretty major buffs for a character that a lot of people already put in the top 10...

Make his godtilts less ridiculous and I think it would be a fair trade.

 

[MuBa]

Yea I wanted to say something about his tilts...For his uptilt I say do NOT change the size of the hitbox, but rather shift it where it's a nice balance in between (so basically it hits behind him too, but if you guys find that too broken then I guess a shorter hitbox is also fine).

Snake is very weak in the air I must admit and the Fair change alone won't do him any good so I proposed an idea of the C4 falling at a faster rate and/or make him able to hold his grenades as an "item"

By no means should Snake be good in the air, all he really needs is something that will efficiently help him get back on the ground, where his true strength lies.

The NOW timing should be raised from 15 frames to 20 b/c it will give him better clearance for him to -> SH -> C4 plant -> Double Jump -> NOW tactic.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Snake is very weak in the air I must admit and the Fair change alone won't do him any good so I proposed an idea of the C4 falling at a faster rate and/or make him able to hold his grenades as an "item"

Please no. That nade walk anim is the only thing stopping him from comboing into nades and also blowing himself up at every possible moment.

I really don't like the idea of a faster Usmash. Its already amazing as cover fire, and great for camping.

I think Cape has already done cypher and C4 speedups, and they work pretty well.

As for faster fair, that makes edgeguarding Snake a little too tedious imo. I really don't think it needs many changes. Maybe if it always spiked, but thats more of a "hand-holding" thing as others would say.

 

[MuBa]

As for faster fair, that makes edgeguarding Snake a little too tedious imo. I really don't think it needs many changes. Maybe if it always spiked, but thats more of a "hand-holding" thing as others would say.

Snake can't edgeguard with Fair efficiently especially when he has a specific DI that reduces his flexibility of aiming the aerial. And since the Fair isn't easy to land as is the you can't consider it as a "hand holding" thing so I think Fair always spiking wouldn't be such a bad idea to implement.

 

[The Cape]

The faster fair also came with a weakening to the hitboxes.

As for the always spiking idea, thats a bad one. Since we cannot differenciate between meteors and spikes with the hitbox data that would just make Snake's **** fair into a spike instead of a meteor which is BAD. Also, the "flub" hit kills well off the top.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'd rather leave Snake exactly how he is right now. A perfectly balanced character. Still really solid, but has counterpicks and weaknesses.

 

[shanus]

I'd rather leave Snake exactly how he is right now. A perfectly balanced character. Still really solid, but has counterpicks and weaknesses.

and bingo was his name-o

 

[goodoldganon]

First off before we begin, this video goes out to everyone that wants to change Snake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WHptG35EWU

*Grumble grumble*

Now, let's sit down and do this right. Let's first lay out what Snake does well:

+Tilts
+Camping/Spacing
+Hits hard
+Heavy
+Stage Control

-Get's combo'd almost as bad as Falcon
-His recovery is spike bait
-Awful aerial game
-Lack of diversity (debatable but I'll add it)
-Can play almost identically to his vBrawl self

Anything else?

So Snake right now is the only character in Brawl+ that still plays basically the same in both games. He can combo a few extra things and he gets combo'd a little harder, but overall he functions pretty much the same. He is also one of it not Brawl+s only character that must play defense pretty exclusively.

Seem fair?

I am doing my best to be as unbiased as possible.

So right now, our main beef with Snake is basically his tilts. His tilts (specifically F-tilt) is 'too good' for multiple reasons. Those are:

1. kill potential
2. great damage-racking ability
3. most killers for Snake
4. best GTFO move
5. virtually safe on shield (**** is better than Dancing Blade pre-nerf)
6. allows for tech chase or free pseudo lock.
7. safe on clank with most moves due to its speed-range-power ratio.

Currently F-tilt strikes on frames 4 and 5. Combined both hits of F-tilt do 20-21%. (8 on the first, 12 on the second). Both hits suffered 3 extra frames of block stun and 7 extra frames of block hit lag in vBrawl. I've never been sure of Brawl+'s multiplier so someone else can do the math. It is imposible, too tough to quantify the number of frames of lag Snake will have after the F-tilt is finished connecting because you can interrupt the first hit at anytime between frames 6 and 31.

U-tilt is considered less of a problem because it doesn't have the setups like F-tilt, but people still deem it too good. It does 13% on hit. The move hits on frames 6-13 and lasts till 37. It has 4 extra block stun frames and 9 extra block hit lag frames in vBrawl.

Bowsers F-tilt and Up-tilt hit on frames 10 and 8-13 respectively.

These two moves cover many of the same purposes and that is getting people off of Snake. F-tilt is used to set up the bounce on the first hit or a horizontal killer while Up-tilt is used as his damage killer. F-tilt also has the added benefit of hitting for a lot of damage. A problem with both tilts is they just overshadow jab. Jab hits on frames 3-4 and at only 2-3 frames slower these tilts are seen as better GTFO moves.

That summarizes my post about Snake's Brawl+ incarnation and what we feel is wrong with him.

TL:DR on What people hate about Snake:

• Snakes tilts overshadow his jab (the traditional GTFO move) at getting Snake space
• His ability to camp is too hard to punish. Besides for spot dodged or whiffed attacks, people believe it is too tough to reliably punish poor Snake play
• His tilts over shadow other aspects that make Snake unique
• ?He can still play like his vBrawl self and he still has to camp to do well in high level play? (I was unsure if this was considered a negative, hence the questions marks.

Until we agree upon this post I will not be posting my ideas and plans to 'fix' Snake.