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Snake: Official Character Discussion
- Thread starter KishSquared
- Start date
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Changed it to CAN play like his vBrawl self still.
EDIT: I was thinking of moving this discussion out to the workshop to get the masses opinions. Any objections?
EDIT: I was thinking of moving this discussion out to the workshop to get the masses opinions. Any objections?
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
All I would do is shrink U-tilt and F-tilt's horizontal range to ~75% -- this would still be completely disjointed, and I don't think it would dramatically affect his matchups. Then, add some dust GFX to the tilts to show their range.
In return, lower the gravity on his Up-B -- this would lessen the initial hang-time and even give it more height. A 10% reduction was good for Link, so that may be a good starting place here.
Overall, any slight decreases in his matchups due to the tilt changes would be at least balanced with the lessening of his spike-bait quality.
Not huge game-changers, just things to round him out and make a little more sense.
In return, lower the gravity on his Up-B -- this would lessen the initial hang-time and even give it more height. A 10% reduction was good for Link, so that may be a good starting place here.
Overall, any slight decreases in his matchups due to the tilt changes would be at least balanced with the lessening of his spike-bait quality.
Not huge game-changers, just things to round him out and make a little more sense.
The Cape
Smash Master
Just wanted to state that Snake's tilts generally kill better and have more range than Bowsers so the speed does not matter. You stated that they are "GTFO" moves and they still would be with the range changes:
Gonna work with his plusses and minuses here to get some ideas going with Snake.
+Tilts
Disjointed range is just one of their many positive points, losing only one still keeps them as one of his best overall moves
+Camping/Spacing
- Nades, C4, Nikita, etc
- The faster C4 and a faster Nikita would really help Snake with his control of the stage, possibly make the C4 and maybe D smash last longer on the stage so that their stage control elements can take place over a longer period?
+Hits hard
- No changes
+Heavy
- No changes
+Stage Control
-Make this better with faster Nikita and longer duration D smash and C4
-Get's combo'd almost as bad as Falcon
-Redo physics, put him in Bowser or DDD category for getting comboed (with smaller size)
- Also, with the same aspects as Falcon: The heavier nature of the character makes him easier to combo but MUCH harder to KO.
-His recovery is spike bait
- Lower grav on upB or adding an IASA frame 2 frames after he grabs the cypher (til the end) that he can AD out at any time. This leaves him a bit less open and can allow him to C4 recover to avoid the spikes. Faster AD and faster C4 with lighter physics will make this all the more possible
-Awful aerial game
- Aerials have good spacing and do good damage, but the character does not neccesarily need to be an aerial based character as most are since he is good at spacing, range, and keep away. His aerial game actually compliments this well.
-Lack of diversity (debatable but I'll add it)
- I dont agree with this one >.>
-Can play almost identically to his vBrawl self
- One of the reasons he needs fixed.
Overall, I would like to make his pluses more prominent and some of his minuses less prevelant in exchange for removing the silly range on his tilts. The tilts are mostly safe on hit and block, setup combos, KO, etc as Viet mentioned. So why should they have the range of a sword character as well? That seems to make no sense to me.
Gonna work with his plusses and minuses here to get some ideas going with Snake.
+Tilts
Disjointed range is just one of their many positive points, losing only one still keeps them as one of his best overall moves
+Camping/Spacing
- Nades, C4, Nikita, etc
- The faster C4 and a faster Nikita would really help Snake with his control of the stage, possibly make the C4 and maybe D smash last longer on the stage so that their stage control elements can take place over a longer period?
+Hits hard
- No changes
+Heavy
- No changes
+Stage Control
-Make this better with faster Nikita and longer duration D smash and C4
-Get's combo'd almost as bad as Falcon
-Redo physics, put him in Bowser or DDD category for getting comboed (with smaller size)
- Also, with the same aspects as Falcon: The heavier nature of the character makes him easier to combo but MUCH harder to KO.
-His recovery is spike bait
- Lower grav on upB or adding an IASA frame 2 frames after he grabs the cypher (til the end) that he can AD out at any time. This leaves him a bit less open and can allow him to C4 recover to avoid the spikes. Faster AD and faster C4 with lighter physics will make this all the more possible
-Awful aerial game
- Aerials have good spacing and do good damage, but the character does not neccesarily need to be an aerial based character as most are since he is good at spacing, range, and keep away. His aerial game actually compliments this well.
-Lack of diversity (debatable but I'll add it)
- I dont agree with this one >.>
-Can play almost identically to his vBrawl self
- One of the reasons he needs fixed.
Overall, I would like to make his pluses more prominent and some of his minuses less prevelant in exchange for removing the silly range on his tilts. The tilts are mostly safe on hit and block, setup combos, KO, etc as Viet mentioned. So why should they have the range of a sword character as well? That seems to make no sense to me.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I'll work on something this weekend and run it by that guy Shanus was talking about. I still don't like the idea but...whatever.
P.S. I only added Bowser's frame data to use as a point of reference.
P.S. I only added Bowser's frame data to use as a point of reference.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
As you'll probably hear/read/know the F-air IASA with Up-b gives Snake infinite recovery. Unless there is something PSA can do I don't know about then I'm 99% positive the only way to fix that is to remove IASA with Up-b, but won't that negate the major reason for having it? We might need a quick discussion on Snake sometime tomorrow.
Revven
FrankerZ
It was fixed already Shell, we're all good.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Ya, PSA can do everything. I was wrong 
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I saw this post by Leaf
Before I go on I should apologize for the name calling during all of this. Today I decided to change up my playstyle and I got together with the best + players in Toledo. I actually played a full on camping Snake instead of the more offensive minded one I had before. I'm sorry for name calling because frankly I wasn't playing Snake the way he should be.
Anyway, I guess I'll just go down the change list.
Snake
F-Tilt:
-Outermost hitboxes shifted inwards. Horizontal range from center of character: 19->15 units (F-Tilt 1); 23->19 units (F-Tilt 2)
Overall this is fine but I'd like to try it combined with a damage nerf and readjust the tilt range out very slightly (1, MAYBE 2 units max) Drop the damage to something like 16%.
U-Tilt:
-Initial Hit: Outermost hitboxes shifted inwards. Horizontal range from center of character: 18->14 units
-Added BKB to upper (boot) hitbox. Hitbox B:[1x Size; 12 Dmg; 95 KBG; 45->60 BKB; 84∞]
The range nerf is well and dandy but the KB nerf seems to be giving the move absurd shieldstun. I swear I was getting punished when the only change was a size nerf but since the BKB buff I was able to be a little silly with them.
D-Tilt:
-IASA changed from 35 to 29; angles to 70/65/60 from 80/75/70
This move is basically safe on block and can be used 2-3 times to either a)force a shield poke b)force a jump. If they jump it's u-tilt to the face.
D-Smash:
-1.200x speed after charge
A good change with the speed changes of Brawl+.
F-Smash:
-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.20x
Cool
F-Air:
-Now interruptible with a midair jump or Up-B starting on frame 29
Do we have a problem with it being a much more legit spike and a slight combo starter? Snake never had trouble with edgeguarding (it's one of his biggest strengths) This opens up recovery problems I discuss next:
Up-B:
-Now interruptible with an airdodge starting on frame 21 from 41
His recovery is now way too safe. F-air resets Snake's momentum so F-air -> jump -> F-air Up-b cover stupid high vertical distance. Combine that with the fact he can air dodge right away out of it and it becomes way difficult to gimp Snake. Sure, Snake still can't recovery straight vertically, but even moves that send out at a Knee like trajectory aren't so tough to recover from anymore. Unless you are Falcon or Sonic you can't reach Snake in time before he just gets too high up. Then it's FF AD to safety (which needs to be fixed)
Overall the tilt nerfs required more time to adjust to for me then before. They forced Snake into his camping role (and I mean REALLY camp) which is what I know realize everyone had such a major problem with. I just really think we overbuffed Snake. I guess I ask the WBR if taking another pass at Snake will go against our goal to let a metagame develop. He might not be popular but it won't take long for news of his stupid good new tricks to spread.
P.S. Grenades were always a bigger problem then tilts.
and figured I'd take the time to point out a few issues I have with Snake. I honestly think we made him a lot better, borderline too good. He's shutting down too much of the cast from my play experience.
Before I go on I should apologize for the name calling during all of this. Today I decided to change up my playstyle and I got together with the best + players in Toledo. I actually played a full on camping Snake instead of the more offensive minded one I had before. I'm sorry for name calling because frankly I wasn't playing Snake the way he should be.
Anyway, I guess I'll just go down the change list.
Snake
F-Tilt:
-Outermost hitboxes shifted inwards. Horizontal range from center of character: 19->15 units (F-Tilt 1); 23->19 units (F-Tilt 2)
Overall this is fine but I'd like to try it combined with a damage nerf and readjust the tilt range out very slightly (1, MAYBE 2 units max) Drop the damage to something like 16%.
U-Tilt:
-Initial Hit: Outermost hitboxes shifted inwards. Horizontal range from center of character: 18->14 units
-Added BKB to upper (boot) hitbox. Hitbox B:[1x Size; 12 Dmg; 95 KBG; 45->60 BKB; 84∞]
The range nerf is well and dandy but the KB nerf seems to be giving the move absurd shieldstun. I swear I was getting punished when the only change was a size nerf but since the BKB buff I was able to be a little silly with them.
D-Tilt:
-IASA changed from 35 to 29; angles to 70/65/60 from 80/75/70
This move is basically safe on block and can be used 2-3 times to either a)force a shield poke b)force a jump. If they jump it's u-tilt to the face.
D-Smash:
-1.200x speed after charge
A good change with the speed changes of Brawl+.
F-Smash:
-Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x->1.20x
Cool
F-Air:
-Now interruptible with a midair jump or Up-B starting on frame 29
Do we have a problem with it being a much more legit spike and a slight combo starter? Snake never had trouble with edgeguarding (it's one of his biggest strengths) This opens up recovery problems I discuss next:
Up-B:
-Now interruptible with an airdodge starting on frame 21 from 41
His recovery is now way too safe. F-air resets Snake's momentum so F-air -> jump -> F-air Up-b cover stupid high vertical distance. Combine that with the fact he can air dodge right away out of it and it becomes way difficult to gimp Snake. Sure, Snake still can't recovery straight vertically, but even moves that send out at a Knee like trajectory aren't so tough to recover from anymore. Unless you are Falcon or Sonic you can't reach Snake in time before he just gets too high up. Then it's FF AD to safety (which needs to be fixed)
Overall the tilt nerfs required more time to adjust to for me then before. They forced Snake into his camping role (and I mean REALLY camp) which is what I know realize everyone had such a major problem with. I just really think we overbuffed Snake. I guess I ask the WBR if taking another pass at Snake will go against our goal to let a metagame develop. He might not be popular but it won't take long for news of his stupid good new tricks to spread.
P.S. Grenades were always a bigger problem then tilts.
The Cape
Smash Master
I agree that grenades are a bigger problem than tilts, but they can also be abused against Snake.
The recovery is still fairly gimpable as Snake is disadvantaged when he first pulls out the cypher and the fair and upB changes also assist with his movement on stage.
The D tilt IASA might have been a bit overdone I can agree with that as well.
The fair change from my experience playing at the tourney this past weekend is that it does more to Snake's mobility than his combo and KO game. The move is very easy to see coming and can be dodged or outsped with relative ease. If you get hit by the move Snake is either really crafty or you made a bad error.
My personal beef with Snake left (only thing) is that the U tilt was shifted back and now has created a decent sized hitbox behind him. It just looks really odd and might be something we can consider cleaning up.
Would be interested in hearing your thoughts further GoG but in my opinion and experience playing Snake against a good deal of people he is a really solid character now, but not overpowered once we fix the U and D tilt issues.
Please post your thoughts.
The recovery is still fairly gimpable as Snake is disadvantaged when he first pulls out the cypher and the fair and upB changes also assist with his movement on stage.
The D tilt IASA might have been a bit overdone I can agree with that as well.
The fair change from my experience playing at the tourney this past weekend is that it does more to Snake's mobility than his combo and KO game. The move is very easy to see coming and can be dodged or outsped with relative ease. If you get hit by the move Snake is either really crafty or you made a bad error.
My personal beef with Snake left (only thing) is that the U tilt was shifted back and now has created a decent sized hitbox behind him. It just looks really odd and might be something we can consider cleaning up.
Would be interested in hearing your thoughts further GoG but in my opinion and experience playing Snake against a good deal of people he is a really solid character now, but not overpowered once we fix the U and D tilt issues.
Please post your thoughts.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I need to test Fair > Jump > Fair > Up-B recovery, but if it really is silly, I'd suggest setting a custom bit variable to control the use of the IASA to be turned off after he does his first fair and then not be reactivated until he hits the ground again.
As far as the Fair being a legit spike, it's still got a hefty amount of wind-up, and if snake's going to be going offstage for the spike, that means he must choose between that and charging up a U-smash / Nikita / etc. on stage. It's a new option, but I don't think it's really one that will overpower his edge-guarding game.
I agree with cleaning up the U-tilt hitbox. More impressions to come after playing Phil.
As far as the Fair being a legit spike, it's still got a hefty amount of wind-up, and if snake's going to be going offstage for the spike, that means he must choose between that and charging up a U-smash / Nikita / etc. on stage. It's a new option, but I don't think it's really one that will overpower his edge-guarding game.
I agree with cleaning up the U-tilt hitbox. More impressions to come after playing Phil.