thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
This is a supplement thread to cover the Snake Match-up, since it wasn't universally agreed who had the advantage or by how much.
Note: This thread will be in use until the next tier list is out. The Kirbys will then decide whether or not to keep this thread as the main location for this MU discussion or move it to the new thread in the event that Maestro decides not to continue the old thread.
Here is what the Kirby boards have written...
The Snakes have not yet covered Kirby in their current MU thread.
What is the same since the last time this MU was discussed? What is different? What was never agreed upon? That's what we are here for.
Let the discussion commence.
Note: This thread will be in use until the next tier list is out. The Kirbys will then decide whether or not to keep this thread as the main location for this MU discussion or move it to the new thread in the event that Maestro decides not to continue the old thread.
Here is what the Kirby boards have written...
Overview:
Snake, from the Metal Gear series, joins the brawl! Armed with various explosives, mines, and rockets, Snake can put the hurt on fast. His combination of heavy weight and stellar recovery can sometimes make getting a KO difficult. His tilts are, in a word, broken. And his aerials are either killers, massive damage rackers, or both. This is one tough fight, but don’t despair. Kirby definitely doesn’t have it easy, but Snake is not an impossible opponent.
Pros+Cons:
+3rd Heaviest character in the game
+Neutral A combo, F-tilt, and U-tilt are all potentially kill moves
+N-air and D-air can both do over 25% damage if all four kicks connect, and they can both be autocancelled (N-air out of a full jump, D-air out of a short hop)
+F-air, B-air, and U-air are all kill moves (down, sideways, and up respectively)
+D-smash, U-smash, F-smash, Side-B, and Down-B are all explosives with incredible power
+Snake-dashing (Dash attack-cancelled up-smash) does not require a hit to cancel the dash attack
+Has several on-stage edgeguard options
+Has several invisible disjointed hitboxes
+When able to recover high, is incredibly difficult to gimp
-Small second jump
-Smashes and specials are laggy
-Poor defensive aerial game; easy to combo once you have him in the air
-Grabbing the cypher (Up-B) when Snake is recovering, and releasing him without pummelling will not give his cypher back; a well-timed C4 is required to recover, and even then, Snake could put 25% on himself to recover
Watch out for:
U-tilt - Snake’s primary kill move, the u-tilt can kill at 100% when fresh, without DI. Did I mention the incredibly broken invisible hitbox?
F-tilt - A mere tilt with strength and damage of a smash; can do 21% fresh, and is a possible kill move.
Neutral-B - The grenades are Snake’s primary method of camping. Watch for shield dropping, or ‘cooking’ the grenades, which prevents you from catching and throwing them back.
Snake-dashing - When cancelling the dash attack into a U-smash, Snake can travel the length of Final Destination with ease. The hits can combo into each other.
How to win:
Use Neutral-B – This move is incredible for this matchup. Stealing Snake’s grenades and counter-camping is infuriating to your opponent. Or you could suck Snake up out of his cypher to Kirbycide. An important thing to note: if you are standing on ground and you suck Snake up out of his cypher and spit him out he does not get his cypher back. That’s right; the Inhale has the same properties as grabbing the cypher.
Be a grab ***** - Snake sucks in the air. Grabs will get him there. D-throw -> U-tilt is all the more effective because none of his aerials are quick enough to stop it. Also, grabs are free damage. They are even more useful because Snake’s game is ground-based, so he will usually be within running shield grab range.
Spam B-air – When Snake is in the air, he has no answer to B-air. It’s faster than all of his aerials, hits him out of his cypher, and is all-around incredible. Expect it to go stale, and if it doesn’t, you’re doing something wrong.
Throw out a hammer or two – Snake is very heavy, but even that doesn’t protect him from the monstrosity that is the aerial hammer. Just throw it out there occasionally to keep your opponent on his toes.
D-air -> F-smash – Just do it. It will get you kills. Snake's heavy weight and high traction means that the ground hit of the D-air won't make him slide very far. Perfect to follow up with a F-smash for the KO.
Spit out or Swallow?
If you Inhale at lower percents, swallow to take his power. Grenades are a very effectve projectile, especially if you know how to cook them. At higher percents, Spit to keep Kirbycide options open.
What NOT to do:
Approach from the air above 100% - U-tilt will trade hits or outright beat every aerial Kirby has. Stick to the ground, spam Final Cutter if he U-smashes, and try to get him in the air.
Expect to grab the cypher a lot– If a Snake is good, he will survive being cypher-grabbed. If he’s better, he will not get cypher-grabbed in the first place.
Forget about proximity mines – Always keep track of the mines. Detonate with FC or Stone if you can.
Roll behind him – When he D-throws you, the easiest you can make his job is to roll behind him, into the reverse F-smash or D-throw string.
Neglect Final Cutter – This is your all-purpose long range move. It disrupts the Nikita, stops grenades, explodes mines, and goes through U-smash spam to damage Snake. This move is the sole reason why Snake cannot camp Kirby to hell and back. Use it. Love it.
Lose track of the C4 – Snake can stick that thing anywhere. Even onto you during the beginning and ending animations of Stone (Thanks Eternal Yoshi). It can be transferred to you if he stuck it on another player. If he’s placed it on the field, know where it is. If you manage to grab him and it’s on the field, he cannot recover. Also remember, the hitbox of the C4 is short enough that you can spotdodge it.
Use multi-hit moves on the cypher - An attack will only break Snake off the cypher if it does 7% or more in one hit. Thus, U-air, B-air, and N-air will get Snake off the cypher, while F-air and D-air won't.
Stages (in order of priority):
Rainbow Cruise – Try camping, Snake. I dare you. This is your go-to stage, but a smart Snake will ban it.
Luigi’s Mansion – Huge blastzones shift the play from outright kill to gimp. (Courtesy of Commander Blitzkrieg)
Jungle Japes – High ceiling to avoid U-tilt KOs and small platforms make Snake uncomfortable.
Lylat Cruise – Tilting stage allows for stone mindgames and messes with Snake’s recovery.
Brinstar – Tiny ceiling and sides, and Snake has an infinite chaingrab at the bottom. Ban it.
Final Destination – Match will be: grenade, grenade, nikita, plant mine, snake-dash, rinse, repeat. It will end with U-tilt KOs.
Green Greens/Corneria – Tiny blastzones make for a happy camper (but only if the camper is Snake)
Synopsis:
Snake is a tough matchup, but far from impossible. Watch out for his broken tilts and Snake-dashing. If you can, Swallow him to be able to camp with cooked grenades and Final Cutter. If you can’t, Kirbycide or Spit out under the stage -> B-air stage spike is so satisfying. Go after him while he’s recovering. You might get a cypher-grab KO or Kirbycide for your troubles. Grabs will get him in the air, where he’s vulnerable. In the air, use B-air very often. Take him to Rainbow Cruise, Luigi’s Mansion, Jungle Japes, and Lylat Cruise. These counterpicks can swing the match in your favour.
Major Contributors: Asdioh, Gonzo
The Snakes have not yet covered Kirby in their current MU thread.
What is the same since the last time this MU was discussed? What is different? What was never agreed upon? That's what we are here for.
Let the discussion commence.