Snake: MU Discussion Supplement

[thrillagorilla]

I don't have video evidence off the top of my head but have a friend try to nade a Fthrow Combo.

If I'm not mistaken Snake only needs 1 frame to get a grenade out. If the Snake buffers, he'll pull a 'nade and screw up our combos without much trouble.

Edit: OK, I REALLY need to start typing and proof-reading faster...

 

[jiovanni007]

Yyeah, snakes can take out grenades while we do the combo (if they're fast enough), so we usually have to think of other ways to punish them.

If you have port advantage you can pummel and Snake will get hit by the grenade and you get treated as just a broken grab. Snake's pretty hard though IMO but not impossible. I'd say 35:65 but I won't call counterpick unless ur fighting a pro.

 

[Kewkky]

If you have port advantage you can pummel and Snake will get hit by the grenade and you get treated as just a broken grab. Snake's pretty hard though IMO but not impossible. I'd say 35:65 but I won't call counterpick unless ur fighting a pro.

Better to just let snake take some damage, than you AND snake take grenade damage. Iunno, I'm thinking a hammer/uthrow/dthrow will end up better than a forced grenade explosion.

 

[jiovanni007]

Better to just let snake take some damage, than you AND snake take grenade damage. Iunno, I'm thinking a hammer/uthrow/dthrow will end up better than a forced grenade explosion.

You missed what I was saying. If you have port priority and pummel than snake take damage and you take none. Dthrow and fthrow both result in explosions.

 

[Asdioh]

But...you do take damage. You just don't get knockback.

Right?

 

[TechnoMonster]

The matchup is about 65-35 in Snake's advantage. Kirby has no useful combos on Snake because they are grenadable, and Snake kills at lower percent naturally. Snake's grab game is better (only by virtue of making ours suck), he has better range, and Kirby has to take a gamble to get inside to use his safe attacks and grab.

Snake is the only character who can so effectively take away Kirby's bread and butter via grenades. Kirby has no effective approach strategies against a Snake who plays carefully and doesn't make careless mistakes that get him grabbed/combo'd, and Kirby's matchup changes to get the grab->juggle->knock off stage to build damage in chunks, along with general Kirby tricks with U-tilt and D-tilt.

Snake should not be using the second hit of his F-tilt, his in-close jab, or a number of other things in this matchup, but once the good Snake players piece it together, then Kirby is taking gambles all day to get the big payoffs, and Snake can effectively cheese a lot of your stuff with grenades.

 

[fromundaman]

Most snakes are conditioned this far into the meta game to grenade any combo. So follow up Fthrows with inhale, easy nades.

I usually do hammer when they do that, especially since a well spaced air hammer won't detonate grenades for some strange reason.

 

[Falconv1.0]

People really over estimate the grenades, we still have faster ways of dealing damage, and a very good air game on him.

65/35 my arse.

 

[jiovanni007]

But...you do take damage. You just don't get knockback.

Right?

nope, may need further testing but from my experiences when you pummel you grab-break and snake gets nade'd. kinda hard to follow-up but it can be useful at times. Note that this only works for pummel and dthrow and fthrow will cause damage to both of you and I haven't tried uthrow or bthrow yet. Bthrow would probably be safe due to trajectory, can't really infer anything about uthrow but logic tells me damage for both parties.

As far as dealing damage goes jab1 -> ftilt does 21% which is a massive amount considering utilt can kill at ~90%. our air game isn't that much better. His bair beats us to hell and can be autocanceled. Uair is also very dangerous and will only be used in smart situations. His ground game is tough to get past and relies A LOT on powershielding which usually isn't factored into match-ups. Ftilt can be shieldgrabbed withou a PS but utilt cannot. Snake's attacks have @ssloads of shield stun in case you haven't noticed.

 

[Klarvic]

You missed what I was saying. If you have port priority and pummel than snake take damage and you take none. Dthrow and fthrow both result in explosions.

I like Dthrowing scrub snakes who mess up the mortar slide and Dsmash instead :D

 

[jiovanni007]

I like Dthrowing scrub snakes who mess up the mortar slide and Dsmash instead :D

That's more like plain bad instead of scrubs =/

 

[TechnoMonster]

People really over estimate the grenades, we still have faster ways of dealing damage, and a very good air game on him.

65/35 my arse.

65/35 is solid if the Snake knows the matchup. A good Snake is going to be able to move and beat out b-air shenanigans, and is going to be able to mix up his tilts and grabs to deal a lot of damage and keep you away. A good Snake is going to be able to prevent approach by roll with his grab. A good Snake is going to know when he can use his Mortar Slide for free damage. Kirby has to be on point 100% of the time to get the win.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I wouldn't go as low as 40/60 on the Snake match up, 65/35 makes it sound more unwinnable though I don't find Snake too hard on his advantage stages, (maybe except for Battlefield). ☆

 

[RoflWafflez]

Take a Snake to Norfair or something similar, the numerous platforms allow u to aerial assault from above/below by goin thru and sharking with him having nowhere to go, and the lava that rises is great for getting rid of his pesky mines or sitting grenades. Works most of the time.

 

[Asdioh]

If you try to attack Snake through a platform, he'll just drop a grenade and shield :[


I played AndyG earlier today. He's a good Olimar main (how good, I'm not sure, but I'm fairly certain he's one of the better/best ones on allisbrawl) and he picked up Snake like two days ago. I played him in a ladder match, and in one game I got not one, but two kills by dropping my Kirbynade, picking it up, and Fsmashing while holding it.

Regardless of how good the Snake is, you guys need to practice this tactic and try it, it really works. And if it doesn't work, and he tries to counterattack, the grenade will blow you both up, most likely, so at least you get damage that way.

But yeah, practice your timing and tricks with grenades, it's worth it. Kirbynades do the momentum stopping things that Snakenades do, when you pull out a second grenade and shield drop it, right?

Also, Inhaling and jumping offstage *****. I don't know if it because he's new to Snake, but in a bunch of friendlies I got two 0% or near 0% footstool kills, without even using a wall.

 

[A1lion835]

Kirbynades do the momentum stopping things that Snakenades do, when you pull out a second grenade and shield drop it, right?

Yes. Also, if you're at a higher percent and you expect him to go in for a kill move, you can pull 'nades. You take more damage, but you don't die and he takes some damage.

^That tactic lead to a replay I NEED to send you, Asdioh. I did that like 5 times in a row on Delfino, he got really pissed, blew up a c4 near me, but he got hit instead and got star KO'd and I was like "epic mindgames".

 

[jiovanni007]

If you try to attack Snake through a platform, he'll just drop a grenade and shield :[


I played AndyG earlier today. He's a good Olimar main (how good, I'm not sure, but I'm fairly certain he's one of the better/best ones on allisbrawl) and he picked up Snake like two days ago. I played him in a ladder match, and in one game I got not one, but two kills by dropping my Kirbynade, picking it up, and Fsmashing while holding it.

Regardless of how good the Snake is, you guys need to practice this tactic and try it, it really works. And if it doesn't work, and he tries to counterattack, the grenade will blow you both up, most likely, so at least you get damage that way.

But yeah, practice your timing and tricks with grenades, it's worth it. Kirbynades do the momentum stopping things that Snakenades do, when you pull out a second grenade and shield drop it, right?

Also, Inhaling and jumping offstage *****. I don't know if it because he's new to Snake, but in a bunch of friendlies I got two 0% or near 0% footstool kills, without even using a wall.

I find that its not necessary to use fancy tactics on Snake to actually win but you moreso have to be on top of your game. Playing defensively helps a lot. Grenades aren't that great of a camping tool as they're cracked up to be. Ftilt and utilt can be spotgrabbed which leads to aerials which lead to damage. Mainly in this match you have to play more of a counter style but you have to play it very well.

 

[Asdioh]

Spotdodging against Snake up close is almost always a bad idea.

Fsmashing while holding a grenade isn't "fancy," it's unexpected and extremely powerful. One of the easier ways to land Fsmash in my opinion.

 

[jiovanni007]

Spotdodging against Snake up close is almost always a bad idea.

Not entirely...makes it possible to grab after an utilt since you don't get shieldstun and you can grab after ftilt too. Only disadvantage is that he might wait and grab you instead.

 

[SuSa]

I see no Snake mains posting in this.


We don't do item-holding fsmash because its fancy, its because most people aren't used to the animation and run straight into it expecting to punish. The pro is that if you do avoid the Fsmash, we also blow up from the grenade just after if we timed everything correctly. Making you trying to punish us after harder because you may think its safe to run up after the fsmash.

Snake plain out outreaches Kirby. Kirby has to space well and bait attacks from us to even get close enough to attack or grab us.

We don't kill with Ftilt - or at least generally don't mean to. It's our most stale move, and when stale it has far less kill potential. We will be killing with our Jab combo or up tilt. (Most likely up tilt)

The hard part about watching our mine/c4 - is we normally place mines to THROW you into or to force an option when we dthrow you. For C4, many people can keep an eye on it for 10-15 seconds before they are to focused on avoiding or attacking Snake to remember. This is why throws/attacks > c4 work so often. Or you running straight into a C4.

You can suck us out of our Up-B to gimp us. And also if you force us to recover - bair, uair, and dair work wonders. Also Kirby's air game is pretty good, so juggling a Snake is possible - however if the Snake knows how to get down it will be harder. (B-reversals, 'fakeouts' using explosives to guard, etc.) The fortunate thing is not many Snake's I've seen actually know how to get down from the air.

Kirby is lightweight and will die far earlier then Snake, who is like a tank - but again with the gimps. If you can get us in the air at lower percents - or offstage, we should expect to lose a stock.


I'd say 60:40 Snake, possibly 55:45 Snake. I need to face some more Kirby's.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ It's looking more like 55/45 to me everyday. It's not common to have Kirby vs Snake in any tourney to tell this match up and as you say SuSa, there is no other Snake main that posted any useful info on this thread. That makes me wonder if your topic creater made a notice on the Snake boards. ☆

 

[RoflWafflez]

Ah i dont think its 55:45 Snake...he has WAY too much range and power with his tilts that get rid of us fast, i would definitely say 60:40, perhaps worse if it really comes down to it.

Yea, once Snake is in the air he's screwed, but again, its hard to get close to him/get him in a position to go airborne. Baiting is good for us, but a good Snake will avoid it easily.

 

[SuSa]

55:45 and 60:40 in theory.

Not enough Kirby's go up against Snake's in tournament settings - so it's really hard to put the hammer on the nail.

So going off of just theory and each characters options at any time - I'm pretty certain it's not Kirby's favor - but it's not horribly in Snake's favor.


To clear up what I said when I said 60:40 Snake with possible 55:45

 

[Pez55]

I'd say 55:45 Snake because Snake has range, and that's about it, other then powerful attacks.

Kirby can combo Snake with his U-air and U-tilt

Kirby is to light and floaty to be comboed by Snake.

 

[RoflWafflez]

Snake doesnt rely on combos to fight, i dont think ive ever seen a comboing Snake...

Our lightness and floatiness is exatly what hurts us, it makes us die alot earlier than usual to u-tilt, f-tilt, etc. I think Snake has the ability to keep a Kirby at bay to prevent being comboed himself, which is what prevents us from ****** him.
I'm gonna have to stick with 60:40, 55:45 only being if the Snake is not experienced with the Kirby MU.

 

[SuSa]

I'd say 55:45 Snake because Snake has range, and that's about it, other then powerful attacks.

Kirby can combo Snake with his U-air and U-tilt

Kirby is to light and floaty to be comboed by Snake.

Nobody is combo'd by Snake.

The Utilt combo > grenade solves that

Uair > not so much.. maybe at lower percents, but grenades still are a viable option of getting out.


Fthrow combo > uair > regrab > can be SDI'd out of.... <_< pretty sure you guys know this already. (SDI > grenade if needeD)

Snake can rack up damage quickly (large damage output) and KO's you at low %'s (lightweight) while able to survive a long time (heavyweight) and outrange you (both on ground and in air, except I think your Hammer outranges everything but out bair)

 

[jiovanni007]

Nobody is combo'd by Snake.

The Utilt combo > grenade solves that

Uair > not so much.. maybe at lower percents, but grenades still are a viable option of getting out.


Fthrow combo > uair > regrab > can be SDI'd out of.... <_< pretty sure you guys know this already. (SDI > grenade if needeD)

Snake can rack up damage quickly (large damage output) and KO's you at low %'s (lightweight) while able to survive a long time (heavyweight) and outrange you (both on ground and in air, except I think your Hammer outranges everything but out bair)

utilt actually outranges hammer...it's happened to me about 3 or 4 times where I whiff a hammer and get utilt'd without snake moving. May need some testing tho.

 

[Asdioh]

(grammarnazi)

Not enough Kirby's go up against Snake's in tournament settings - so it's really hard to put the hammer on the nail.

red is wrong
green is right

(/grammarnazi)


I dunno if any of you guys have experienced this, but these are my experiences...I'll put it as an example.

Let's say there's a Kirby player whose skill level is say, 8 out of 10.
He's playing a bunch of matches (tourney, MM, friendlies, whatever) against a Snake, whose skill level is say 6-7 out of 10.

Kirby wins the first match, 2-stocking his opponent.
Wins the next match, JV 2-stock.
Wins the next couple matches, 1 stock.
After that, matches come down to last hit, or he starts losing.



...that's what it seems like to me. It seems that the more a Kirby plays a Snake, the bigger the advantage the Snake will have. Maybe I have trouble adapting and changing my style, but I don't think that's it. I just think Snake has more options than Kirby does.

I mean, this was my experience in a tourney match a couple months ago: I ***** a Snake for the first 2 stocks of the first match, and then by the end of the match, he caught up and I won, but it was closer than it should have been. After that, he won the next two matches, winning the set.

yesterday, I played an AiB ladder set, and the first game I dominated in, next one I lost, and third one I barely managed to win. After that we played friendlies, and it kept coming down basically to last hit.

It might be because Snake lives so **** long that he can afford to make more mistakes. All of Snake's broken moves and tactics aside, I think his weight is what makes this matchup so difficult. Obviously it's winnable, but the Snake is allowed more mistakes per match.





......unless it's the mistake of Mortar Sliding to the edge of the stage when Kirby's trying to recover. Don't do it, ******** Snake players >=(

 

[SuSa]

utilt actually outranges hammer...it's happened to me about 3 or 4 times where I whiff a hammer and get utilt'd without snake moving. May need some testing tho.

I stated aerial, not grounded. (Or at least I believe I did)

That's what it seems like to me. It seems that the more a Kirby plays a Snake, the bigger the advantage the Snake will have. Maybe I have trouble adapting and changing my style, but I don't think that's it. I just think Snake has more options than Kirby does.

Most Snakes don't know the matchup. More Kirbys do simply from playing a lot of Snakes. (Let's be honest, the # of Snake players > the # of Kirby players)

 

[jiovanni007]

I stated aerial, not grounded. (Or at least I believe I did)



Most Snakes don't know the matchup. More Kirbys do simply from playing a lot of Snakes. (Let's be honest, the # of Snake players > the # of Kirby players)

It said both but I think ur right about air since utilt's hitbox gets smaller as it approaches the apex. But I dunno about the whole Snake experience thing. Out of the 5(?) Snake players in close proximity to me I really only **** one and one is extremely good but I beat him on the first tourney set we ever played (close matches) and still go even in friendlies. He even said I was the first Kirby he ever played and on a 1-10 I'd give him about an 8.5 only because of all the Snake vids I've seen. I mostly just believe that this match is about perfect repetition. Since we know that only a few things work on Snake we have to repeat them tirelessly and in perfect form to score a win. Well maybe more than a few things but I think the picture is kinda clear.

 

[thrillagorilla]

☆ It's looking more like 55/45 to me everyday. It's not common to have Kirby vs Snake in any tourney to tell this match up and as you say SuSa, there is no other Snake main that posted any useful info on this thread. That makes me wonder if your topic creater made a notice on the Snake boards. ☆

I did. There were about three or four requests in front of mine, and I made a link to this thread in my post. I would put up a request on their boards, but you aren't supposed to do that anymore, you have to post in their MU thread which wasn't exactly bustling with activity... My request was only one page back as of today and I made the request on the 25th of last month. <(o.O)>

Edit: Thanks for coming over and discussing, SuSa! I hope more Snake mains can come and join too.

 

[papermario12]

I'll say one thing: Snake is cheap.

 

[A1lion835]

I'll say one thing: Snake is cheap.

A. Cheap=scrub talk.*

B. Why is a sonic main on the kirby boards talking about snake?

*"gay" is also scrub talk, with the exception of talking about Snake, Meta Knight, an infinite or Marth (referring to sexuality).

Anyway, on topic...

I agree with Asidoh. It's easier the first few games, but then they start catching on...and then it gets hard to stop. Grenades easily rack up damage, but copying makes it much easier on you. As I (think) I've said, we can pull grenades to stop KO moves at high %'s which improves this a bit...don't go to battlefield or smashville D:

 

[papermario12]

What's scrub talk?

I main Kirby, Mario, Yoshi, Wario, MetaKnight(even though hes cheap, i like him), Luigi, Pikachu, Red(you know who im talking about), and many others. Sonic is just the character I use the most.

 

[Asdioh]

Holy hell. I just played G-reg on the AiB ladder, and even though you said "cheap/gay are scrub talk," I can only describe his Snake as "gay"

I took him to Yoshi's Island the first match, and he just jumped around on the platform laying and detonating C4s and grenades. THE WHOLE TIME. There was like, nothing I could do about it, at least, not on wifi. I managed to get an Inhale->footstool for a kill, but I still couldn't beat him.

Then I took him to Pictochat and he did the same thing on the transformation that has all those random lines. So I waited it out, and yeah. I somehow won that one. It helped that he randomly fell into the piranha and killed himself.

Then he took me to Smashville, and Snake is broken. His hitboxes are absolutely ********, and he has so many options. This matchup is 60:40 his favor at LEAST ... on wifi. No, I was not really outplayed, I did the best I could considering input delay and Snake's broken hitboxes/camping ability on wifi. Seriously, his jab hit me even though he was punching in the opposite direction @_@

Then I hit him near the right of Smashville with a fresh Fsmash, towards the right of the screen, at like 104-110% and he DIed it and lived. What the hell.

SO BROKEN AHHH

 

[papermario12]

Holy hell. I just played G-reg on the AiB ladder, and even though you said "cheap/gay are scrub talk," I can only describe his Snake as "gay"

I took him to Yoshi's Island the first match, and he just jumped around on the platform laying and detonating C4s and grenades. THE WHOLE TIME. There was like, nothing I could do about it, at least, not on wifi. I managed to get an Inhale->footstool for a kill, but I still couldn't beat him.

Then I took him to Pictochat and he did the same thing on the transformation that has all those random lines. So I waited it out, and yeah. I somehow won that one. It helped that he randomly fell into the piranha and killed himself.

Then he took me to Smashville, and Snake is broken. His hitboxes are absolutely ********, and he has so many options. This matchup is 60:40 his favor at LEAST ... on wifi. No, I was not really outplayed, I did the best I could considering input delay and Snake's broken hitboxes/camping ability on wifi. Seriously, his jab hit me even though he was punching in the opposite direction @_@

Then I hit him near the right of Smashville with a fresh Fsmash, towards the right of the screen, at like 104-110% and he DIed it and live. What the hell.

SO BROKEN AHHH

Why did he do nothing but lay and detonate C4s and grenades? Spamming/camping like that should be against the rules, that's very cheap if you ask me. Do you have a vid of it?

And I don't even need to talk about his UpA attack, all of you already know how cheap it is.

 

[Asdioh]

Why did he do nothing but lay and detonate C4s and grenades? Spamming/camping like that should be against the rules, that's very cheap if you ask me. Do you have a vid of it?

And I don't even need to talk about his UpA attack, all of you already know how cheap it is.

No offense, but it's obvious that you're new. Very few things, or I suppose nothing, in this game can truly be considered "cheap."

You just...play to win. I mean, the Snake was doing "cheap" strategies against me (jumping around where I couldn't reach him and dropping bombs lol laggy wifi is amazing)
So I did "cheap" stuff against him (Inhale him, jump off the stage for an easy kill)

:\



Anyway, I just played another Snake, and I don't think he mains Snake but I got some stupidly awesome combos, and won in like 2:15 so I got to save the replay :]
I don't feel so bad anymore. 8-2 on the ladder...lost one match to a Fox I should have beaten, lag sucks -_-

First game came down to last hit, and I Fsmashed and Fox Upsmashed at the same time, and of course he won. :[
Second game I picked Jungle Japes and he died by:
1. I shielded his attack, he fell in the water, and he couldn't recover
2. I grab released him into the water, he barely missed the Klaptrap, but hit it and died when he surfaced XD
3. he killed me, I came back and Inhaled him as I was falling, into the water on the left, free kill :]
Lamest game EVER, I saved the replay XD

 

[A1lion835]

.

Sorry for me being a total dickface. I blame the lack of sleep : /

 

[papermario12]

Sorry for me being a total dickface. I blame the lack of sleep : /

I dont get it.

 

[A1lion835]

I dont get it.

...

I was being an ******* to you.