WTF TOO MANY WALLS OF TEXT! @_@ easy duz it ppl
Would you rathers I post reasons with no evidence to support them and then be asked for said reason?
It's a discussion. I prefer walls of texts to anything else.
☆ Since SuSa replied to Kewkky post very well, I can't add anything to it. I almost replied with my own post, but SuSa's is much well detailed. ☆
Thanks, but I didn't touch up on certain parts all to well. I was in a rush (12 minutes late to work...)
☆ True, I guess I have to do more research myself as I am a Stone Kirbyholic. =P ☆
I could probably make a post here helping you and others who are Stone-a-holics...
I used Random for a long time and I love using the stone but you REALLY need to know when to use it to minimize your chances of being punished. Not being a Kirby MAIN may make people see my post as useless however.
☆ Stone on most stage's is not needed, and it's best to use it on stages with good slants like Lylat Curse, I love using Stone there. I wouldn't risk using Stone on boring stage's like Battlefield or Final Destination unless your outside the stage trying to punish Snake when he recovers or just want to use Stone to grab the edge. ☆
Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), some parts of Delfino Plaza, Pictochat (if legal), and Pirate Ship. I don't really use it anywhere else due to its readability.
Since I don't want to be quoting everything, I'm just gonna put dots in between things you say, so you know from where to where I'm quoting.
I didn't quote everything of you either, I left out like 2-3 paragraphs I believe.
I knew I was going to get things mixed up. I was being sarcastic about the whole "PR Snake Skill". Of COURSE there are mart snakes in PR, as well as smart whatever in any other place. New Jersey and Texas aren't the only places with competent players. >_>
That's not what I was commenting on. Obviously - regions generally do have different levels of skilled players. This could be explained by those people having to play the minority of the 'gifted' players (M2K, DSF, Azen, Ninjalink, etc.) therefore coming closer to their skill level simply by playing them. That's a POSSIBLE explanation, but again the point was moot. I wasn't going to say "Come face some WC players or Florida players and see if that changes your opinion about Snake" because I don't know the skill level of your players - hence my point = moot. So I wasn't pulling that 'location card'.
My point in the "experience" part of my argument is that, you can't throw all of the snakes in one bag and say "These are all going to utilt you at 130%", or "these are all going to ftilt when you go near". The point of what I said was for them to notice their opponents' patterns, and maybe even include common sense (when you're at high %, he'll be trying to kill you). Now, I want to emphasize that I'm not saying that people suck, I'm pointing out the things we are SUPPOSED to be looking out for. If it's common knowledge, then I'll still point it out, because it's important knowledge also.
Yes, others won't attempt an uptilt and rather "let it happen" or wait for the right moment - rather then force it, etc.
Yes, I know you were saying to learn to read your opponents playstyle - but that's not the entire part of it. You should also be analyzing which of your moves would be the best to punish their said moves. Some moves have a very 'you can punish with this move' list. If a Snake uses Fsmash and misses, you can punish with most anything. If he whiffs an ftilt or utilt, it's much harder to punish because there is less lag - and the ranges are different. So you have a smaller 'I can punish with this' list. Knowing this list will make your punishing game much better. Then it comes down to spacing and baiting so you can punish.
I didn't mean the "use downB on snake". I myself NEVER use it against snakes, they can just relax right next to you and wait for you to transform back to utilt/ftilt/fsmash you (or even grab you if you're on the ground). I was just using it as an example, to point out that there are some attacks, like the downB, that you're better off NOT using, because of the amount of time you're helpless doing nothing afterwards (while transforming back, or the landing lag you get when you transform back).
We are in agreement with this. So no point furthering this discussion.
If the snake is smart, he'll be punishing YOU for mistakes. Avoid doing ones that are easily readable. That's what I meant, but it's pretty general, and not specific anywhere.
Not just avoid the easily readable ones. You want to make as few mistakes as possible - and not give Snake room to punish. Snake has a very good punishing game (due to range) and a very good pressure game (grenades, c4, mines, nikita on occasion) Snake's entire game is almost built on people making mistakes - which is impossible to avoid every mistake. So the goal is to capitalize on the Snake's mistakes as well. Kirby has a much better punishing game (maneuverability and being able to string attacks together) and a rather good gimping game (dair/footstool, stone for predictable recoveries (and/or hammer) weak bairs...I'm sure you guys know all this. lol) however it's simply
harder for Kirby to do so because Kirby has less options.
Hence where my argument of Snake's advantage comes into play. He's allowed to make far more mistakes - because often times the Kirby player doesn't know
what to use to punish or doesn't know if they can punish - hesitates - and get's punished themselves.
As said way back in this thread - the Kirby player cannot make nearly as many mistakes.
They're both in the same boat where the one who spaces improperly gets punished. Kirby can punish a failed, spaced snake ftilt by waiting out until he finishes whatever he's doing, then walking a small amount and ftilting. Kirby can punish utilts by knowing the disjointed hitbox's range and doing the same thing (unless you powershield while running towards him... Grabbing wins here)...
Not entirely true, there are some moves for Snake that only have to be spaced well. Kirby has to space
close to perfection. Snake also has more options to punish, blah blah blah. I don't want to repeat myself twice in one reply.
See, the bad thing about using an area's people as examples of something we're trying to point out is that, unless the people we want to convince have had proof of some sort, they won't believe out word... Which is why I try to no say "our snakes are good", the same as "our snakes are NOT good". Let's just leave the affirmations to whoever wants to apply some of what's said to their game (no offense intended).
This is why I am not using area to justify my 60:40 opinion nor any of my evidence being based off of players in a particular region.
Yep, and I gladly admit it. The good thing about losing is that you know you can improve and do better. Me, I've been losing against DDDs (******** grab games win) and MKs (self explanatory), but my tourney results aren't what I'm here to talk about, since the topic is about Snake. And I don't consider myself "faling to adapt"... I'd rather just call it "learning from experience", sounds better.
Eventually I'll find a way around grabs and laser swords.
If you are losing to the same people - you may be learning more - but you are
still failing to adapt
in game which is what is important. You do not want to
do better the next time but rather
win this time. So whether or not you would
rather call it something, it is in reality failing to adapt.
I know how they work, and I know their functions in society. I'm pointing out how people's experience are constantly used to point out a number or two -- I can say "My experiences tell me that Snake gets owned by WoP whenever he uses cypher", but we all know that's not the case with ALL the Snakes, ergo me not wanting to use my own experiences to point out a matchup number. If we want to find the perfect number for this, we'll need someone to learn both characters, play against himself at full power, and see who comes out the victor each time... And we can't possibly do that, so we have to use everyone's numbers and points to determine a generalized one.
We can use 2 people who uses their character at high levels of play whom are of equal skill level. Which is likely impossible - so rather we look at the previously mentioned strengths, weaknesses, movesets, advantages over, and disadvantages against of each character. We also take many peoples ideas because one person cannot possibly cover every possible thing. Generally people end up coming to an agreement in a majority that dictates one number - and the minority can still hold their belief of a different number. Generally their number isn't drastically off anyways. (eg; if the matchup is 60:40 they feel its 55:45 or 65:45)
I don't know the olimar vs kirby matchup, to tell you the truth... I was always falling for pivot grabs, and I always tried to outspeed him whenever I saw another grab approaching. In due time, I'll find out a good way of taking him down that doesn't include me being thrown backwards because of me spamming bairs like it says in the MU discussion... Because that's what I tried doing that time, and it didn't work. (they were friendlies, btw).
Playing as an Olimar - I find Kirby an easy matchup until
I make a mistake and get punished for it. Then it becomes a hellish matchup. Spacing bairs and avoid grabs is really the best way to approach an Olimar (coming from my Olimar perspective. I have never used my Kirby vs an Olimar...)
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And in the end, my personal view, my own opinion, still stands to me... Campy snakes aren't a problem. Aggressive snakes might be troublesome to a couple of people. Snakes that are both campy and aggressive ARE troublesome.
When a player knows when to be defensive (camping) - and when to be aggressive. They are generally always better then playing just one stile.
Against Kirby, a Snake player should not be trying to play defensively. Kirby is good at avoiding things because of his maneuverability. A grenade here or there (OoS ACT's or Instant-Grab from platforms etc) can be helpful, but we shouldn't be trying to camp with them.
