SMASHPOCALYPSE:: SPOC IX in February? Link to SPOC VIII results in OP

[Cactuar]

Yeah, and we requested to wait. We didn't just sit there and not play, we made it well known that we were waiting for the results of Loser's. If people had a problem with it, it should have been addressed at that time. Either of the TO's could have easily said "No, you have to play it now, or decide which player will be forfeiting immediately." and we would have made that decision.

It falls under the responsibility of being the TO to enforce the rules of your tournament as they have been displayed prior to the beginning of that tournament.

The thing about them choosing FD third round was that it was a legal stage choice. The first round did not count towards DSR, as it was chosen by elimination. Scar and Hax had no right to complain about it being selected as the CP. This was how the entire tournament had been run up until that point.

 

[pockyD]

i agree that if the T.O. didn't enforce it at the time, it's rather pointless for the T.O. himself/themselves to complain about it 3 days later

 

[Scar]

yeah mages DQ is way too harsh but that's the general rule i was implying

cactuar i'm pretty finished talking to you since you're clearly not being objective whatsoever and are trying to flex your muscles a little bit, i'm pretty sure that i've done everything i can to sort of get past a problem that occurred months ago at this point but you seem intent on thinking what you think and there's nothing i can do to change it

since you're back in the scene we're just going to have to deal with it and if that means that you want to hit me then go right ahead, you've been talking about it for about 4 months now anyways, i hope that at least gets it out of your system

BUT

as i said before i did not ask you to play your match and i was not firm about it because at the time i wasn't really all that invested in it and didn't have a problem with it, i still don't have a problem with it which is what i just said when i said that i wasn't trying to start anything and that i was only making observations.

@white mike this is how it went down

me: DL64
jman: no
me: you went to FD twice even when you won on it
jman: that's your fault, you should have said no
me: you picked it too fast, you went like this "dreamland *select dreamland*"
jman: whatever

if jman had said no again then obviously we would have just had to pick another stage, in retrospect him picking FD was technically against the rules and with my dave's stupid rule, which is new, i suppose that if the stage is not allowed to be picked it's just not allowed to be picked, but there is no rule about whether agreement to play has to be confirmed or whether it's the winner's responsibility to enforce it or anything. so the point is the fact that the rule is new there is no precedent

while i don't think it would be fair to throw that match away, i also don't think it is fair to put the sole burden on the person who didn't pick the stage, especially when allowing FD as a counterpick for them was not without question strategically a bad move, we had to discuss it as a team which there was simply no time for

all that said, the match was close and if they would have won on it they wouldn't have complained about it, and hax and i probably would have complained that they counterpicked us to FD twice

there are always johns in smash, i think everyone knows this

and for everyone that doesn't know what happened (cactus), the set was

FD (stage strike)
=bans of PS and BF=
FD (jman, legal)
DL64 (scar)
FD (jman, technically illegal)
DL64 (scar, technically illegal)

 

[Cactuar]

The fact that you are even bringing that up is weak and has nothing to do with the argument. I've always had a problem with people abusing rules, and making jokes about violence. I have, at every point in time, made it very clear where I stand on my emotional state around you. You have no right to bring any of that up at any point in time as it is noone's business but ours. Had you asked, I would have told you that I'm fine being around you in the smash community, but that you have no business talking to me outside of it. That's all there is to it.

You have done nothing to make any of it better. You have ignored the problem. And you have joked about it from everything that I have heard, which is incredibly disrespectful. Even if you are joking, it is not appropriate and only sets you up to look like an *******.

 

[pockyD]

After the first match, the losing player from the previous match must announce their choice for the next level or elect to have the next level selected at random. Once the stage selection has been announced, the winning player may choose to change their character. Once the winning player has chosen his character for the next match, the losing player may then choose to change characters. After the stage and characters have been set, the players play their second match.

it doesn't sound like this process was followed, which means you should have reset immediately when they started the game on FD, even if you ultimately decided to allow them to play on FD (as a team, not as a T.O.)

and on top of that, two wrongs don't make a right; this isn't meant to be philosophical or anything, but it's not like each side should be allowed to break one rule; if one side got away with breaking a rule because it wasn't properly enforced, it doesn't entitle someone else to do it too

 

[Scar]

i never joked about violence with jman in that set though i regularly do at every tournament with jman specifically bc i think it's funny when he laughs at me

also me yelling and threatening physical violence @ spoc is a part of the experience and you didn't have to go

anyways i didn't ignore it and everyone that i've talked to has heard millions of times how badly i felt and still feel

but honestly i have more problems with you as a person that i can count, which has always been true, so i guess i really don't see a point in making things better anymore, i just always wanted to be civil which i thought was mutual until i was recently threatened (albeit conditionally) that "words" would have to be exchanged "outside"

everyone already thinks i'm a dbag anyways, you made pretty sure of that, i'm just trying to move forward and apparently this is the venue i've chosen to do so

 

[GOTM]

yo yo yo, both of those teams are now known to have played in probably the most entertaining doubles set in like....****ing history. no johns about any of that ****. if the stages werent played that were, we wouldnt have awesome **** combos to watch, which all in all is what smash, specially SPOC is all about.

calm down people.

also i mean i can understand why the whole cactus jman thing would piss some people off but like, it could have been a bigger deal. honestly it seems as if some people were mad that it happened just cuz they know there not good enough to make it that far anyway. i keep it real.

but tbh, its scars tourney and what happens is his choice ultimately. if he wanted to play 2v1 on jman he woulda made it happen, lol. but honestly i dont understand why everyone is trying to have this argument now, wtf bring it up when it happens

 

[Scar]

it doesn't sound like this process was followed, which means you should have reset immediately when they started the game on FD, even if you ultimately decided to allow them to play on FD (as a team, not as a T.O.)

and on top of that, two wrongs don't make a right; this isn't meant to be philosophical or anything, but it's not like each side should be allowed to break one rule; if one side got away with breaking a rule because it wasn't properly enforced, it doesn't entitle someone else to do it too

true facts and i won't argue that

but i definitely realized that it was in my team's interest to try to appeal to jman and see if he would allow the match to be played on dl64 anyways, which he did after i asked the second time

so we just picked dl64 and played

that was the whole thing, and if it was a big deal it should have been made a big deal at the time, not 3 days later

 

[Hax]

cactus, scar couldn't have made such a rule because such a thing has never happened before; at least to my knowledge. have some spirit of the game and play the set out; don't bull**** tope out of top 2. i'm not gonna comment further until i know more about what winners finals was like.. if it was jesus sandbagging hard then thats some ****ed up sh*t; unarguably.

as for option 2 being appalling, read closer and learn that nowhere does scar make threats regarding beating up jesus. he merely insinuates that jman might have felt such a thing would happen. there's a difference between someone explicitly threatening to do something and someone thinking something is going to happen; the latter being the case.

yes we allowed jesus to go FD twice; yes we got into an argument regarding him not letting us pick a stage twice. regardless of his motives; he agreed in the end to it happening. idrk what happened; scar did most of the talking while i was off to the side lol. regardless, lack of spirit of the game imo from jesus for even trying to argue (after we let him pick FD) and a rule needs to be enforced: if your opponent allows you to pick a stage again after winning on it, you are allowed to do the same later on in the set.

all i know is jesus's fox lost his anal virginity in that set ahah

jesus i love u but even attempting to not let us pick DL64 was d*ck. this wasn't the world championships; relationships with other [local] smashers should come into play when you make a decision like that. we're part of a loose and chill community; this isn't chess where once you put your hand on a piece you have to move it. after CPing FD for the second time in such a disrespectful manner; - not even giving us the chance to realize you had already CP'd it - that was maaad rude what you did

 

[Cactuar]

I never said anything about having a problem with anything that occurred at SPOC. I went, I played, I left. Nothing more.

It is the TO responsibility to enforce whatever rules they choose to. Not my business, and if a player that it actually affects comes to me to talk about it, then I will consider their argument. Anyone else has the right to talk, but know that it won't change my position at all.

 

[CanISmash]

this is why scars rules are stupid and boring.

grand finals was played on 2 stages. yay for diversity.

haha (opens can of worms back on cp debate)

also get at hax$ t-shirt

 

[Cactuar]

I also never said Scar did threaten Jman. I said if anything like that was said around me, as in it being in person and in a situation to suggest it being an actual option or to make jman feel that that was an option in a manner to coerce a decision, I would take him outside and have a word with him. Read into that however you will, but I would never be violent.

And yes, Jman got ****ing raaaaped in that set.

 

[Scar]

right i agree, me neither, and the TO in this case (me) felt no need to enforce any rules at that time, my only concern was that the tournament wouldn't finish on time if winner's finals, loser's finals, and grand finals had to be played sequentially

you expressed to me that winner's finals was going to be decided by forfeiture, which i didn't have a problem with, and so it went

tope didn't have a problem with what happened, he thought it was kind of lame but not to the extent that he would have said so, which is unrealistic

 

[Hax]

CanISmash you don't know enough about top level play to make that statement.. we had a huge discussion about this in the MBR ending with me, scar, XIF, etc. on the winning end of the argument. the case we had made was that CP's are bull**** and while stage diversity is great for introducing people to the game, entertainment, etc. it is illogical for competition when there are approximately 5-7 fair stages. notice how there were NO stage johns at this tourney; that alone is a reason to exclude CP's.

and, lack of diversity!? that was the ****ing greatest set of all time... please

 

[GOTM]

this set was the best doubles set of all the time, so if anything, this proves in itself that scars rules are better than the rules used to be.

we change the rules and one tourney later we get the most **** set i have ever watched. i dont give a **** about the stages, i watch the combos and the players, and a match played on ****ing rainbow cruise would not have had a double raptor boost, double knee, and other **** combos.

 

[Cactuar]

Okay, so the only person who has complained really about what Jman and I agreed to is Mog? I don't understand why this is an issue at all...

 

[DoH]

CanISmash you don't know enough about top level play to make that statement.. we had a huge discussion about this in the MBR ending with me, scar, XIF, etc. on the winning end of the argument. the case we had made was that CP's are bull**** and while stage diversity is great for introducing people to the game, entertainment, etc. it is illogical for competition when there are approximately 5-7 fair stages. notice how there were NO stage johns at this tourney; that alone is a reason to exclude CP's.

and, lack of diversity!? that was the ****ing greatest set of all time... please

Uh, you obviously didn't win that debate, as your side lost the vote as whether or not to allow counterpicks.

Additionally, you could never articulate a clear bright line as to what constituted a legal stage and what the delineation between a starter and a counterpick would be, nor could you create standards as to why we should ban counterpicks without being incredibly arbitrary.

If people practiced counterpicks and knew how to apply their bans properly there would be a significant decrease in stage johns.

 

[SwiftBass]

/sigh

Soooooooooo rule discussion/TO practice couldn't have gone on without added drama?.........

 

[Hax]

none of these things happened because our thread got locked without reason. the vote was also ridiculously invalid considering like 15 of the people who voted agaist us hadn't read/posted in the original thread that sparked the debate; their votes merely went against us because they opposed change to their precious counterpick system.

our line between a legal/counterpick stage was that a CP skews matchups out of proportion; even turning bad matchups into good ones. the only reason such a dumb characteristic even exists is because SSBM was designed to be a party game; terrain benefiting specific characters is nonexistent in anything designed to be competitive. CP's in addition don't exist for literally 90%+ of the cast; considering corneria is geared towards spacies and mute/brinstar are geared towards jiggs/peach. that's 3 ****ing characters able to utilize CP's.. where's the balance in that?

 

[D20]

In all honesty, I never understood why stages such as Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, and Mute City were ever legal. The problem with playing only on the neutral stages is that several characters are no longer threatening to go deep into brackets. When you limit stages, you limit the viability of certain characters. Is this an issue for competitive Melee? I don't know. Most characters are already obsolete.

Scar, it is your tournament. Run it the way you want to. I think things ran relatively smoothly with the new set of rules. However, I believe that this set of rules could cause players to under-perform and make poor strategic decisions in tournaments outside of this region (unless more TOs adopt this strategy). These are only my opinions and I trust your judgment.

In regards to players splitting the pot, I think it is the players' decisions. If they want to split, they can go right ahead. However, I would always love to see players like Cactuar and Jman play the set out as competitively as possible (even if they split after the tournament). Give the community and the fans something positive to cheer and talk about. Again, these are only my opinions.

PS - I love East Coast smash!

 

[DoH]

But you never define what out of proportion is, or why that's a good standard to have, or what the benefit removing the strategy of in terms of stage selection is. Dumbing smash's unique aspects down to make it more like other fighters is a terrible standard because it assumes that smash is like other fighters, and you might as well make FD the only viable stage because platforms benefit specific characters that can abuse them.

Additionally your assumption that only Peach/Jiggs pick Mute Brinstar and only Spacies pick corneria is fallacious at best; Ken vs PC on Mute during MLG involved no Peaches or Jiggs, and it's a great counterpick not only against Spacies but also Sheik, Falcon, and the Marios. I take Jigglies and Falcons to Corneria because they have trouble with those stages, and I know some Climbers and Marths like the stage. Sheiks and Falcons like Brinstar against spacies.

People need to be more creative with their counterpick choices and utilizing their opponents weaknesses in addition to their character's strengths.

With that being said, I did like the idea of not being ****ed by not winning the first match. I'd like to experiment with the SPOC rules some more though.

 

[prog]

Time for Lady Proga to deal with the progarazzi.

In prog's opinion, what's done is done. What happened happened, if it was a miscommunication, if it was an accident, its in the past. You learn from it and do what it takes to make sure that it doesn't happen again, or at least learn from it. New rules were being tested, whatever the outcome was with those, it's all good. Prog personally feels that the reasoning behind it (improving EC on neutrals) has its heart in the right place, and is a good idea. Prog also wants to thank everyone for supporting SPOC.

In closing, prog wants to get back to the real issue with SPOC: why something bad always happens with a prog related vehicle.

Over and out.

 

[ranmaru]

I don't care about diversity, I just want to play smash man. :]

Plus I'm a doc player so I have to take what I can get. I liked the strike thing, only time I messed up on that was when I was playing a marth player, forgot to strike out yoshi's. I was just striking out things I wanted to strike out just so that I wouldn't have those little inconsistent things there that I don't like. Although, I made sure to strike it out the second time in that set lol.

Spoc was really fun, I hope that I will go again man.

Also, I hear that a good stage for doc would be FoD. I don't like it at all, because it messes me up as well.

Maybe I'm just not that good yet for cp, dunno. Right now I'm trying to improve my game, not see how my character might fit with each stage. Well, I play on each one to be used to it though. I generally have no problem on a stage, only very little things, like the wind on dream land. (which would be why I'd strike it out) Basically I don't know how to use them fully yet, and I don't know how I will ever learn to. I guess it'll come from experience. I mean, for example against capfal I'd just ban fd on him or something, that way I'd have platforms to make him adjust to. Fox, he is fast, so I don't know what to do there lol. Others, meh. Dunno. xD

Sure I may be a noob and get ignored. :[ I will still smash on, because I don't know what else to do.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

I don't care what the rules are when it comes to stages. I just go by the rules of the tournament, play, have fun and thats it.

 

[SwiftBass]

Sure I may be a noob and get ignored. :[ I will still smash on, because I don't know what else to do.

nah never dat.


plus u got like over 1k post so like s'all good

 

[ranmaru]

Thanks bro. But yeah, if there is rules, I'll be fine with whatever. I just wing it, and do my best. There is never dissapointment for me. There was in my first tournament, and then less in my second, but from there on I knew its a learning experience, and that I wish I could be better. : D

 

[Deleted member]

CanISmash you don't know enough about top level play to make that statement.. we had a huge discussion about this in the MBR ending with me, scar, XIF, etc. on the winning end of the argument. the case we had made was that CP's are bull**** and while stage diversity is great for introducing people to the game, entertainment, etc. it is illogical for competition when there are approximately 5-7 fair stages. notice how there were NO stage johns at this tourney; that alone is a reason to exclude CP's.

and, lack of diversity!? that was the ****ing greatest set of all time... please

Had you been on the winning end of the argument, your idea wouldn't have gotten crushed in the poll. Don't discuss anything else MBR in the open public. Save it for your MBR peers or other close friends that can keep their mouths shut.

 

[Tope]

I do feel like i would have had a better shot at replaying cactuar in losers finals, but i was glad to play jman too. It wasn't really that big of a deal, but it is odd waiting so late to play out winner's finals.

 

[Pakman]

Scar, that is not cool bringing up personal stuff on SWF. You can talk about that through PM's and aim. You're better than that.

Cactus and jman, you were within every right to do what you did, but it is completely understandable why people feel a little peeved about it.

Everybody else, get over it. It happened and seeing as how it is an issue, I assume most TO's who are aware of it will make an amendment to their rule set. So in essence, the fact that it happened brought it up for discussion and the community seems to think that the players in winners' finals waiting for losers' finals is not cool, is a positive step in making better rules for the community.

I would suggest ending this issue or opening a new thread in the melee discussion section before someone comes in and closes the thread.

 

[thumbswayup]

Are you guys arguing?!

There's no arguing in Melee!

 

[Milos]

/topecrushed

cant wait for the next spoc, i love coming to philly and seeing all my nikkas

i think you should be allowed to cp any and all stages, but that jiggs and peach should be banned on mute, fox banned on onett etc

lol wouldnt that be funny

 

[toasty]

LOL Thumbs I was just about to say "o_O That ain't MD/VA Brawl Results Thread..."

That teams set was OMFG AMAZING!

I can't wait to see more videos!

I also can't wait to see all you people at RoM2 =D Sad I couldn't make it to this...busy makin that paper sonnnn ^_^

For whatever tallying purposes there may be, if/when I host, I'll be adopting the SPOC stage list.

 

[GOTM]

milos your one of the coolest cig partners ever, LOL

 

[White_Mike]

These falcon mains hate CP stages god lol.

CP stages add an extra element of strategy to melee, and I love that.

considering corneria is geared towards spacies and mute/brinstar are geared towards jiggs/peach. that's 3 ****ing characters able to utilize CP's.. where's the balance in that?

The fact that certain stages are "geared" towards certain characters is exactly what the counter pick system is for. That's why they're counter pick, that's the startegy that's behind them. Trying to make melee balanced makes me LOL so hard, this game will never be balanced.

 

[Mogwai]

w/e, I'm over it, I still just think it's lame, but it's apparently none of my business so I won't go on.

MBR is a joke, it's headed by someone who's barely active in the community anymore and is full of people that made me go o_O.

 

[Tope]

no the MBR is a big deal.................

 

[Alukard]

seriously ... i loved the striking stages thing ... but i dunno about zero counterpicks ... =\

i dunno but its not that amazing imo i miss coneria ... and mute and stuff ... i love the feeling of using my abilities to play various characters ... i mean i understand how hax and scar feel tho ... with just cf lololol

but yea its w.e ... i'm like dj on this... i came to have fun and compete and well try to win doubles =]






and as for the whole CP during doubles thing ... jesus did the same to us ... except i didn't argue it ... i just see his true colors now ...


just play ur matches when they are called ... and enforce that

 

[White_Mike]

and as for the whole CP during doubles thing ... jesus did the same to us ... except i didn't argue it ... i just see his true colors now ...


just play ur matches when they are called ... and enforce that

Alright sure that's kind of messed up but you could easily just reset lol.

I don't know if it's that serious as to say it shows someone's "true colors."

People act differently inside and outside of smash, and money is money.

I don't see why people are catching so many feelings though.

 

[pockyD]

yeah I love that "Pink Reaper" is in there

It's ok, TOs have never really listened to the SBR anyway (I don't know a single tournament, outside of maybe 10-man midwest tournaments, that has EVER used the "official" recommended ruleset) except for the 12 year olds who are worshiping the tier list, so i wouldn't really be worried about what the SBR recommends or doesn't

anyone else surprised that "worshiping" only has one P?

 

[Mogwai]

yeah I love that "Pink Reaper" is in there

It's ok, TOs have never really listened to the SBR anyway (I don't know a single tournament, outside of maybe 10-man midwest tournaments, that has EVER used the "official" recommended ruleset) except for the 12 year olds who are worshiping the tier list, so i wouldn't really be worried about what the SBR recommends or doesn't

anyone else surprised that "worshiping" only has one P?

I'm at least partially surprised.