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Smashing Grounds to the Future! 3
- Thread starter Fortress | Sveet
- Start date
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Rainbow cruise is a better stage than KJ64 and it is easier to beat any strategies there that are considered good.
KJ64 is balls.
KJ64 is balls.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Brb timing out Tink on KJ64.
Brawl strats.
Brawl strats.
Isn't it crap for Marth -and- Peach? And with a higher ceiling than most, making it less than ideal for Fox? W-- why do you like that stage so much!
Dekuschrub
Smash Master
dk64 is ballssss
i actually dont even know who it is good for? does that make it neutral? probably lol
i actually dont even know who it is good for? does that make it neutral? probably lol
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Running away there is almost Hyrule status.
I dunno, I think Marth actually has decent recovery options when you consider the upper left/right platforms. Plus the low middle of the stage is money for avoiding Falco lasers and bull**** like that.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I think Rat knows what's up.
WatchYourRadar
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2010
- Messages
- 93
Bloomington will be coming to this. We had legit johns for the last one, but we are hitting this up for sure.
john!
Smash Hero
i still haven't heard a convincing argument for kj64 being worse than pokemon stadium
Fortress | Sveet
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john!
Smash Hero
bahahaha ok point taken. but i'm not sure that qualifies as an "argument", more of a "cali peach being a douche and ganon not knowing how to deal". that still doesn't compare to being drillshined 0-death on a transformation.
Fortress | Sveet
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john!
Smash Hero
both of those chars don't have projectiles and would be camped out by other characters with projectiles on similar stages. if anyone thinks i'm saying this just cause i'll play peach, then pick peach and play my non-peach on that stage lol. it's not even close to an unbeatable strat.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Fox or Falcon could theoretically time out any character with their speed and similar strategies. Plus Fox has lasers.
Fortress | Sveet
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i find its more about the float, tbh. Fox is really good at camping because of his movement speed and jump height. It was kinda the strat i was going to use on Rat game 3 of our set, but I decided I would have more fun if i tried to actually fight him (and then i found out the middle platforms really help samus escape fox's ****, even if she dies when she gets pushed the stage).
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Float only matters against some (bad)characters. Falcon/Fox/Falco/Sheik/Puff/Marth can tap that.
Sheik/Falco still aren't the best there. Someone find that vid of Cosmo timing out KirkQ/Darkatma on KJ64 with Zelda at that one Purdue tourney. They can just stop the Peach float strat.
Sheik/Falco still aren't the best there. Someone find that vid of Cosmo timing out KirkQ/Darkatma on KJ64 with Zelda at that one Purdue tourney. They can just stop the Peach float strat.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
just curious, how many times have you actually been 0-deathed from drillshines? I'm pretty technical and I have NEVER done that to anybody.
Furthermore, you can SDI into the air during the dair, get shined and land, effectively cancelling your lag. Then peach could dsmash for insane damage because fox will be holding down for drillshines
I'm not sure about waveshines
darkatma
Smash Hero
naw the only reason cosmo beat me there was that I changed course and went offensive when I was up 2 to 1 in the 3 minute mark. I basically found out that I can't play too gay
tbh I wouldn't mind just having european ruleset
5 neutrals + pokestad cp
Honestly the more basic the ruleset the more skill-based the game is
Fortress | Sveet
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1) you can't SDI into the air during the drill, that is called "forbidden smash di" look it up.
2) i've done infinites on people on that stage against the wall, though not so much anymore because my tech skill is super inconsistent.
3) fox is really good against a wall regardless of whether he infinites or not.
i agree. The left KJ64 because in terms of fighting and stage layout it is fairly similar to dreamland and because I figured that the more things I removed the larger the outcry against it would be.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
The only possible thing you can john about on Cruise are the blastzones.
john!
Smash Hero
i feel bad for chris, but i also feel bad for people who get cp'd to gay stages... oh man what a dilemma...
@luke: i've been drillshined on stadium far more than i've been camped out on kj64. and it's a far more reliable and rewarding strategy. it also (arguably) takes less skill than camping someone out for 8 minutes.
@luke: i've been drillshined on stadium far more than i've been camped out on kj64. and it's a far more reliable and rewarding strategy. it also (arguably) takes less skill than camping someone out for 8 minutes.
this isn't really true. we could make the ruleset more "basic" by allowing only fox dittos on fd. that would take away all the skill of knowing how to cope with different stages and different characters. then again if we allowed wack stages like flatzone, that would decrease skill by making fox even cheaper, and increasing random factors like getting comboed to death by falling tools. it's a fine balance.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
If you are able to perform everything on a more complex stage layout you would on FD, wouldn't that take more skill, and potentially lead to even more complex usage/understanding/ability with your character on said stage? The possibilities of Cruise are rediculous. Stage movement does not mean counterpick, or even unbalanced or not fair. In Brawl due to camping elements, moving stages/transforming stages are almost MORE fair/neutral. It has evidence to back up that claim at least.
You CANNOT use characters or their matchups to determine legality of a stage. There sure as hell are 90-10 matchups for certain characters on FD, on Yoshi's, on Dreamland. Character balance should not matter either. How good or bad the matchups are shouldn't matter whether it is 2 top tiers, top vs bottom, or 2 bottom tiers.
Stage legality should be based off of nothing more besides broken strategies. A lot of stages get banned without reason, and a lot of stages are accepted to be more fair without reason, or rather with the wrong reasons. X characters are bad on Y stage does not make Y stage unusable or removable from competition.
Whatever though, you can't teach an old dog new tricks and a lot of Melee players are getting older/grumpier and won't adapt to change.
You CANNOT use characters or their matchups to determine legality of a stage. There sure as hell are 90-10 matchups for certain characters on FD, on Yoshi's, on Dreamland. Character balance should not matter either. How good or bad the matchups are shouldn't matter whether it is 2 top tiers, top vs bottom, or 2 bottom tiers.
Stage legality should be based off of nothing more besides broken strategies. A lot of stages get banned without reason, and a lot of stages are accepted to be more fair without reason, or rather with the wrong reasons. X characters are bad on Y stage does not make Y stage unusable or removable from competition.
Whatever though, you can't teach an old dog new tricks and a lot of Melee players are getting older/grumpier and won't adapt to change.
john!
Smash Hero
define "broken strategies". the fact is that the characters that are already really good in melee are also the ones that can abuse these "broken strategies" on counterpick stages the most. character matchups play a huge role. imagine there was a stage where every character could use a "broken strategy" equally well. that would not be banworthy despite the presence of a "broken strategy". unless you define "broken strategy" to mean a strategy that gives one character a giant advantage over another, in which case you just contradicted yourself by saying that characters and their matchups don't matter.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
A broken stategy is a something that is literally unbeatable, or almost to that point. Sheik chaingrabbing Pichu is not a broken strategy even though it is 0-death usually. Another factor in stage legality should be whether the stage causes unplayable conditions. For instance, Peach's Castle where no one has to go to the other side to fight, or MK2, where a lot of characters have invincible stalls, and can transfer ledges if/when their stall could be interrupted. Brinstar is super gay, but KJ64 has more potential broken strategies.
Matchups don't matter for the broken strategy. Please re read the OP. Otherwise you get into arguments potentially saying every stage is banworthy depending on strategies/tactics of terrible matchups.
Matchups don't matter for the broken strategy. Please re read the OP. Otherwise you get into arguments potentially saying every stage is banworthy depending on strategies/tactics of terrible matchups.
john!
Smash Hero
what strategies are unbeatable on kj64? that's why i said, if anyone thinks peach is unbeatable on kj64, go peach and i'll face you with non-peach, and if it's truly unbeatable then i should get 4-stocked, or at least soundly beaten.
i don't think there are broken strats on the vast majority of stages, i'd even be okay with 9 neutrals, i just think you're being unequally selective about which stages are fair and which ones aren't. ultimately it's all up to the TO to decide what ruleset would make people the happiest.
i don't think there are broken strats on the vast majority of stages, i'd even be okay with 9 neutrals, i just think you're being unequally selective about which stages are fair and which ones aren't. ultimately it's all up to the TO to decide what ruleset would make people the happiest.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
I never said Peach was unbeatable, read my old posts. Falcon/Fox though, can be extremely ******** if they want. If one matchup has a 0-death chaingrab on a stage named FD, like Fox-Marth, just as much should be weighed in that strategy as Sheik 0-death Pichu on FD. That's all I meant by matchups and measuring the strategies.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
how many are going to this?
Oro?!
Smash Hero
they average around 30. Just IL locals mainly. **** son you are like fiending for tourneys. Posting in every thread in the MW lol... Of course you coming would probably bring WI/MI, possibly IN.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
i just found some cheap plane tickets is all
but i think there's a big melee tournament in FL this day anyways
but i think there's a big melee tournament in FL this day anyways
Fortress | Sveet
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Cruise takes no skill. You can outcamp and run away with fox very easily. Its a really fun stage, but so is big blue. Fun + complex fighting =/= fair or balanced. Simply running away makes the stage not balanced = banned.
Hey hbox, if I were to run a large tournament (50+ entrants) with this ruleset would you be interested in attending (assuming it doesn't clash with a larger tournament)
Hey hbox, if I were to run a large tournament (50+ entrants) with this ruleset would you be interested in attending (assuming it doesn't clash with a larger tournament)
wall drillshine doesnt work, you cant DI up but you can DI behind them and just get shined the other way
cruise still takes more skill than people realize vs good players; if youre trying to stay far away from people with fox that puts you in danger of dying at 30%, and thats a tough deficit to make up if your whole plan was running away with lasers
dk64 on the other hand, they get a guess right and hit you, you just have to recover which is easy as hell when you have the options of going both up high and down low. john, very rarely do spaceys actually play as gay as is available on dk64, i havent seen hardly anybody actually do it in person myself, but their vertical movement combined with the high platforms for them to jump on makes it really, really hard to catch them
cruise still takes more skill than people realize vs good players; if youre trying to stay far away from people with fox that puts you in danger of dying at 30%, and thats a tough deficit to make up if your whole plan was running away with lasers
dk64 on the other hand, they get a guess right and hit you, you just have to recover which is easy as hell when you have the options of going both up high and down low. john, very rarely do spaceys actually play as gay as is available on dk64, i havent seen hardly anybody actually do it in person myself, but their vertical movement combined with the high platforms for them to jump on makes it really, really hard to catch them