Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

[Dojo999]

Balance? Yes. Peach keeping her float cancel to have no aerial attack lag, fast characters having low lag moves to begin with and many even having significantly reduced lag on them, while some slower characters keep nearly the entirety of the lag on their slow moves and simultaneously losing the huge lag reduction they needed to even be playable against fast characters to begin with is "balance".

I'm sure all of that is true. But not everybody notices, or cares. The cold facts are none of this guarantees a victory. Just like not being able to L-cancel does not guarantee a loss. I'm sure that competitive players have enough experience to use other strategies.

I mean, is this really the cornerstone that your whole, game was set on? Were you hiding behind these one or two moves that helped you win? Cause that's sad. Is L-cancelling like the only thing you do? Your telling me that there is no other way for you to win without this one Fing move? Then you deserve to be beat by someone who can actually play the game using a variety of moves. These techs seem to be on the same level as spamming the same move (lazers) and running away. Once again, man up.

 

[Krell]

Bawww moar pro***got OP.
This game will be superior without ******** advanced techniques. God forbid you play a game how it's meant to be played.

 

[cultofrubik]

Lulz. SheerMadness is a technical player, a pretty good techy player. His game revolves around combos, so that's why he's worried. Of course, I do have a question:

Mindgame johns?

 

[Magus420]

You neglected the fact that heavy characters can actually beat fast ones, and this time around it doesnt take a Heavy Pro to beat a Fast Noob,

So, essentially, characters like Bowser make up for Lag and Speed in Strength and Durability.

It doesn't matter how strong and durable you are in 1vs1 if you're slow and laggy as hell and can't even hit someone.

 

[shadydentist]

Bawww moar pro***got OP.
This game will be superior without ******** advanced techniques. God forbid you play a game how it's meant to be played.

No! This is exactly what i'm talking about! There's no one right way to play the game! Does anyone else understand this?

 

[9bit]

Take the game for what it is, and play it.

 

[Angrylobster]

Bawww moar pro***got OP.
This game will be superior without ******** advanced techniques. God forbid you play a game how it's meant to be played.

Why does it matter to you? You're gonna get owned anyways, advanced techs or not

 

[WastingPenguins]

I'm sure all of that is true. But not everybody notices, or cares. The cold facts are none of this guarantees a victory. Just like not being able to L-cancel does not guarantee a loss. I'm sure that competitive players have enough experience to use other strategies.

I mean, is this really the cornerstone that your whole, game was set on? Were you hiding behind these one or two moves that helped you win? Cause that's sad. Is L-cancelling like the only thing you do? Your telling me that there is no other way for you to win without this one Fing move? Then you deserve to be beat by someone who can actually play the game using a variety of moves. These techs seem to be on the same level as spamming the same move (lazers) and running away. Once again, man up.

Y'know, I like to play the occasional, casual game of chess. I don't know much about it, I just play for fun. But I'll be ****ed if I get on chess forums and yell at the expert players about their strategies and the in-depth way they view the game, because its something I know very little about. That's kind of how this forum feels sometimes though...

 

[Jx31]

I'm sure all of that is true. But not everybody notices, or cares. The cold facts are none of this guarantees a victory. Just like not being able to L-cancel does not guarantee a loss. I'm sure that competitive players have enough experience to use other strategies.

I mean, is this really the cornerstone that your whole, game was set on? Were you hiding behind these one or two moves that helped you win? Cause that's sad. Is L-cancelling like the only thing you do? Your telling me that there is no other way for you to win without this one Fing move? Then you deserve to be beat by someone who can actually play the game using a variety of moves. These techs seem to be on the same level as spamming the same move (lazers) and running away. Once again, man up.

So, what you're saying is, even if I'm winning using one or two moves, I should use other moves for variety's sake. .................Uhhhhhhhh no thanks.

 

[sync]

Guys, you realize Brawl will have its own advanced stuff, right? We'll have to learn it like we learned Melee.

 

[Magus420]

Once again, man up.

Money match me for a very large sum in either game? Man up.

 

[Fletch]

Bawww moar pro***got OP.
This game will be superior without ******** advanced techniques. God forbid you play a game how it's meant to be played.

Dude STFU.

Magus isn't even just arguing about advanced techniques being gone, but more that they removed something that is going to make the balance WORSE than Melee. In Melee, some of the slower characters (i.e. Gannon) could compete because of l-canceling, and now that is not looking to be the case, while the faster characters are going to have a clear advantage. I don't care about heavy armor and all the buffs the heavies are getting since it won't matter when they won't be able to get a hit in.

Finally, advanced techniques give the game longevity. Unless we find some miraculous new techniques to give this game some depth, I see Melee remaining the Smash game of choice.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm sure all of that is true. But not everybody notices, or cares. The cold facts are none of this guarantees a victory. Just like not being able to L-cancel does not guarantee a loss. I'm sure that competitive players have enough experience to use other strategies.

I mean, is this really the cornerstone that your whole, game was set on? Were you hiding behind these one or two moves that helped you win? Cause that's sad. Is L-cancelling like the only thing you do? Your telling me that there is no other way for you to win without this one Fing move? Then you deserve to be beat by someone who can actually play the game using a variety of moves. These techs seem to be on the same level as spamming the same move (lazers) and running away. Once again, man up.

That's really not the point he's getting at. The point he's getting at is that L-canceling reduced lag by half. That means that it had a greater effect on laggier moves. That means that it had a greater benifit for SLOWER CHARACTERS and essential is what made them playable on a competative level. Powerful and Durable is more valuable in other fighters than in smash, because your movement is much more restricted in other games. In smash however, the slower character will simply not be able to hit the faster one, because the other guy will simply interupt it or run or block. That's why those slower characters needed L-canceling. It was the speed boost that allowed them to actually land a few attacks on thier opponents and let their power really shine. Power means nothing if it doesn't hit anything.

Speed on the other hand, is much, much more valuable in smash. That's what creates the gap in smash, not power. It's the ones that can safely attack their opponent, and escape from any counter attacks, that wins. That's pretty easy for them with all the space they have to move around, because they're never really cornered. L-canceling didn't help the fast characters that much because it really only shaved off a few frames (Marth's fair went from 15 to 7, ect.)

L-canceling wasn't just one move, it was 5. Nair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair. L-canceling completely changed the uses for these aerials and made gameplay so much faster. L-canceling was the most influential technique.

 

[Dojo999]

Y'know, I like to play the occasional, casual game of chess. I don't know much about it, I just play for fun. But I'll be ****ed if I get on chess forums and yell at the expert players about their strategies and the in-depth way they view the game, because its something I know very little about. That's kind of how this forum feels sometimes though...

I see what you say, but I don't think this can be compared to chess. There is no sequel to chess, chess is not expected to change anytime soon. Video games constantly change and players with it if they want to keep playing.

So, what you're saying is, even if I'm winning using one or two moves, I should use other moves for variety's sake. .................Uhhhhhhhh no thanks.

Nah, I'm just saying, players that use a variety of moves are unaffected because they have other strategies to fall back on. They benefit from not relying to much on a move. Although I will give you that a good player should be able to see an overused move and counter it.

Money match me for a very large sum in either game? Man up.

I dont see what that has to do with what we were talking about, but you got me there. You'd probably kick my ***, proving the point that you don't really need the L-cancel.

That's really not the point he's getting at. The point he's getting at is that L-canceling reduced lag by half. That means that it had a greater effect on laggier moves. That means that it had a greater benifit for SLOWER CHARACTERS and essential is what made them playable on a competative level. Powerful and Durable is more valuable in other fighters than in smash, because your movement is much more restricted in other games. In smash however, the slower character will simply not be able to hit the faster one, because the other guy will simply interupt it or run or block. That's why those slower characters needed L-canceling. It was the speed boost that allowed them to actually land a few attacks on thier opponents and let their power really shine. Power means nothing if it doesn't hit anything.

Speed on the other hand, is much, much more valuable in smash. That's what creates the gap in smash, not power. It's the ones that can safely attack their opponent, and escape from any counter attacks, that wins. That's pretty easy for them with all the space they have to move around, because they're never really cornered. L-canceling didn't help the fast characters that much because it really only shaved off a few frames (Marth's fair went from 15 to 7, ect.)

L-canceling wasn't just one move, it was 5. Nair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair. L-canceling completely changed the uses for these aerials and made gameplay so much faster. L-canceling was the most influential technique.

I think that people who choose heavyweight characters do so, with the full realization that the character will be powerful but slow. They shouldn't try to modify a characters style, it seems to ruin the integrity. If you want to play fast, pick a fast character theres no shame in that.

This is getting a little to intense for me. I'd like to apolagize to anyone I pissed off. My opinions are not an ultimatum. Sorry if I sounded like a ******* to anyone. I'll try to be more tame.

 

[Glinth]

Don't buy the game then, less whiny idiots to deal with <_<

 

[Angrylobster]

I think that people who choose heavyweight characters do so, with the full realization that the character will be powerful but slow. They shouldn't try to modify a characters style, it seems to ruin the integrity. If you want to play fast, pick a fast character theres no shame in that.

The thing is, bowser was still slow compared to shiek or fox in melee with l canceling. L canceling just made it so that the matches against fast characters with characters like bowser or ganon were playable at the least.

 

[draigaran]

To the casual player:

As stated many times, L-cancelling was stated in the Smash 64 manual, proving that it was intended to be in the game and not just an exploit or a glitch. Other techniques in Melee such as wavedashing may or may not have been included intentionally, but I digress. The casual player and the competitive player are on two completely different levels. I'm not going to argue if using advanced techniques deviates from how the person is "supposed" to play. Rather, it should be that each person should play how they want to play.

If you don't want to learn techniques, fine. If you think it's stupid to practice shuffling or wavedashing or dashdancing, fine. But understand that some people want to delve deeper into the game and implement advanced levels of play. Chances are, if you are a casual player, you are not interested in learning that much about the game or going to competitive tournaments. That's expected. Play with other casual players. Go crazy in 1P mode. Or if you're truly convinced that advanced tactics are superfluous, try going to a tourney, give people a run for their money. But don't flame other people for wanting to learn different techniques than the ones you implement.

To the competitive player:

As for the lack of L-cancelling itself, yes it would be detrimental for heavy players with huge lag. Yes, it means we're going to have to re-learn muscle memory for aerials. Yes, the game is different from Melee. Fortunately, Brawl is not supposed to be Melee. Changes are inevitable in any new game. Look at the jump from 64 to Melee. I remember Pikachu was my main in 64, but his up b was nerfed in Melee. Yeah, it sucked, and I muttered at the screen for a good 5 minutes, but I chose a different character to main. New tactics were discovered in Melee. 64 strategies could not be brought seemlessly and effectively to the Melee platform without major adjustments.

64 is not Melee is not Brawl. Adjust. Adapt. Learn. It's what the competitive player does, and it should not come as a burden. Otherwise, we'll spend our time complaining about the lack of wavedashing or L-cancelling, when in reality we should be enjoying a really REALLY sweet game.

But to address the lack of balance argument... uh, L cancel is still in... fast fall before the aerial? Gimpyfish wrote that on the stickied Brawl Impressions at E for All. If others still say that waiting to hit the aerial after fast falling makes the heavy players vulnerable.. then perhaps the heavy players just won't generally be above middle tier. That was usually the case for Melee anyway. There's 35 characters, pick another one if you really can't tolerate your character's lag.

Summary:
Casual players should stop nagging the competitive players.
Competitive players should forget about what can't be done, and focus on discovering new aspects of Brawl.

 

[Stormkeeper]

Seriously, the argument that a change in techniques destroys the competitiveness really only holds water when the physics DON'T change. And that's not the case here. Brawl = new game.

I bet ppl said the same thing about Lcanceling in melee when they found out it wasn't as sweet as Zcanceling was in SSB.

Don't try and downplay the value of Brawl with so little information.

 

[Rang Flash]

So, what you're saying is, even if I'm winning using one or two moves, I should use other moves for variety's sake. .................Uhhhhhhhh no thanks.

Against good players, you probably won't be winning with one or two moves, unless you're Drephen.

 

[Magus420]

But to address the lack of balance argument... uh, L cancel is still in... fast fall before the aerial? Gimpyfish wrote that on the stickied Brawl Impressions at E for All. If others still say that waiting to hit the aerial after fast falling makes the heavy players vulnerable.. then perhaps the heavy players just won't generally be above middle tier. That was usually the case for Melee anyway. There's 35 characters, pick another one if you really can't tolerate your character's lag.

It was in that particular demo, yes. It was removed in the later demo however and is also not present in the completed version of the game. Would've been interesting to still have in though =/

@Dojo999: I said that in response to your 2nd paragraph after quoting me. I was mainly just joking because you happened to use the "Man up" phrase at the end of it that often goes along with MM challenges. It's all good =)

 

[PyrasTerran]

To the casual player:

As stated many times, L-cancelling was stated in the Smash 64 manual, proving that it was intended to be in the game and not just an exploit or a glitch. Other techniques in Melee such as wavedashing may or may not have been included intentionally, but I digress. The casual player and the competitive player are on two completely different levels. I'm not going to argue if using advanced techniques deviates from how the person is "supposed" to play. Rather, it should be that each person should play how they want to play.

If you don't want to learn techniques, fine. If you think it's stupid to practice shuffling or wavedashing or dashdancing, fine. But understand that some people want to delve deeper into the game and implement advanced levels of play. Chances are, if you are a casual player, you are not interested in learning that much about the game or going to competitive tournaments. That's expected. Play with other casual players. Go crazy in 1P mode. Or if you're truly convinced that advanced tactics are superfluous, try going to a tourney, give people a run for their money. But don't flame other people for wanting to learn different techniques than the ones you implement.

To the competitive player:

As for the lack of L-cancelling itself, yes it would be detrimental for heavy players with huge lag. Yes, it means we're going to have to re-learn muscle memory for aerials. Yes, the game is different from Melee. Fortunately, Brawl is not supposed to be Melee. Changes are inevitable in any new game. Look at the jump from 64 to Melee. I remember Pikachu was my main in 64, but his up b was nerfed in Melee. Yeah, it sucked, and I muttered at the screen for a good 5 minutes, but I chose a different character to main. New tactics were discovered in Melee. 64 strategies could not be brought seemlessly and effectively to the Melee platform without major adjustments.

64 is not Melee is not Brawl. Adjust. Adapt. Learn. It's what the competitive player does, and it should not come as a burden. Otherwise, we'll spend our time complaining about the lack of wavedashing or L-cancelling, when in reality we should be enjoying a really REALLY sweet game.

But to address the lack of balance argument... uh, L cancel is still in... fast fall before the aerial? Gimpyfish wrote that on the stickied Brawl Impressions at E for All. If others still say that waiting to hit the aerial after fast falling makes the heavy players vulnerable.. then perhaps the heavy players just won't generally be above middle tier. That was usually the case for Melee anyway. There's 35 characters, pick another one if you really can't tolerate your character's lag.

Summary:
Casual players should stop nagging the competitive players.
Competitive players should forget about what can't be done, and focus on discovering new aspects of Brawl.

A sound argument.

 

[Dojo999]

A sound argument.

Indeed. FYI, I'm not defending the casual or competitive side, I'm defending the game from people who seem less than happy with the final result.

 

[PyrasTerran]

The truth of the matter is that all this angst and anger against the game is going to disappear from the great majority of competitive players once the game actually is in our hands and we are playing it. New techniques will be discovered and the competitive scene will be stronger than ever with a more balanced game than before.

We just need to hold out a bit longer and remember that this game has something for everyone.

 

[Dx-pyrohunter64]

But if L-Canceling was introduced in Brawl the gain would be proportionate for each character (Lets say cut the Lag time in half). Effectly there is no difference. Unless you planed to abuse this to players who were not aware of what L-Canceling was....

Explain.

​

Ignorance is not an excuse...you can't seriously be suggesting that it's abuse just because someone was not aware of a *(tech/glitch/exploit/move). Ok so let's say hypothetically, a person was not aware that samus is able to recover/grapple onto the stage, and because of that, they get thrown off guard, get combo'ed to hell and they lose a stock...I see no abuse in that at all, I see someone who has not had enough experience with the game who has just learned something new. Something that adds a newer element to the game. Yes I know that the samus grapple recovery was NOT a glitch obviously and that it was intended. So let's imagine a similiar scenario: hypothetically speaking (once again), that L-canceling was back in the game. In a Ganon ditto match, little jhonny notices that his opponent is doing the same attacks that he is, exceot that his opponent is recieving noticibly less lag after doing an aerial attack (Dair,Fair,Uair,Nair,Bair). Also he sees that his opponent can do combos that he can't do even after practicing and practicing hours upon hours...Now, he can react a couple of ways...
1) the typical n00b way - "ZOMG!!11!!!11! HE IZ UZING TEH H@xX0Rz!!!11!"
2) He can curse the entire time he's getting 4-stocked, 5-stocked, or W/e stocked, throw a b*tch fit, and end up throwing his wiimote into his t.v, breaking it, thus solving the problem
or
3) Having a "Wtf?" moment-->coming to this site--> finding out that his opponent was L-canceling-->Learns how do L-cancel himself-->if he's gotten any better (experience-wise not necessarily technical-wise) he 4-stocks,5stocks, W/e stocks another n00b, which in turn causes that person to follow one of these three steps

So like I said Ignorance is not an excuse.

On a different note, I can L-cancel. I try to be a technical player because I've been playing smash bros since the first day the 64 version came out (only reason I got a 64 and a gamecube) and it's no big surprise that Games get old. So learning adv. techs has helped to keep this game alive, as many people before me have said It adds depth to the game.. This is fact, even if it was unintentional.

Which brings me to my final point...(lol sorry if I'm being boring but it was your decision to read my post ) The exclusion of L-canceling in brawl will affect me but not as much as others. I'm not saying I'm happy that it is gone, but I am also not saying that I am furious that it was removed. I am simply saying that I see the competitive play being hurt but not dead, and that dissapoints me. I hope that new adv. techs can be found to keep brawl alive in the same way that melee was kept alive.

Whew...that was the most I've ever said in a pt so far lol, like the other guy in this thread here said, I'm more of an observer. I tend to read more then I post (which is why I think this post was so long) but this time I felt like I had to state my opinion.

Sorry for the misspellings, laziness is and will be my downfall

 

[Revolver Roosevelt]

advanced technique discovered:
Spacing. It's used to evade attacks and hit when the enemy doesn't expect it. It can basically be mixed with practically any movement technique in the game. It's only a matter of time till the elitists start exploiting it to beat honorable "scrubs."

I say HAL should update the game to remove spacing.

 

[Magus420]

The truth of the matter is that all this angst and anger against the game is going to disappear from the great majority of competitive players once the game actually is in our hands and we are playing it. New techniques will be discovered and the competitive scene will be stronger than ever with a more balanced game than before.

We just need to hold out a bit longer and remember that this game has something for everyone.

You can't really assume it will be more balanced without even playing it though, let alone on a competitive level. Hopefully it is, yeah.

 

[PyrasTerran]

advanced technique discovered:
Spacing. It's used to evade attacks and hit when the enemy doesn't expect it. It can basically be mixed with practically any movement technique in the game. It's only a matter of time till the elitists start exploiting it to beat honorable "scrubs."

I say HAL should update the game to remove spacing.

haha :D

The exclusion of L-canceling in brawl will affect me but not as much as others. I'm not saying I'm happy that it is gone, but I am also not saying that I am furious that it was removed.

Good on you.

Personally, ROB and the clones are bigger threats than the lack of advanced techs.

You can't really assume it will be more balanced without even playing it though, let alone on a competitive level.

That's true.. but what I can safely assume is that almost everyone who has the game has given it nothing but praise.

It's we who DON'T have the game that are complaining the most.

 

[3GOD]

You neglected the fact that heavy characters can actually beat fast ones, and this time around it doesnt take a Heavy Pro to beat a Fast Noob,

So, essentially, characters like Bowser make up for Lag and Speed in Strength and Durability.

There are also these magical things called commas, by the way.

Heavy characters can beat fast ones in Melee, but even then it's very difficult if the fast character plays smart enough.

In Brawl it will be virtually impossible even with "Strength and Durability." Since the heavy characters seem to be even MORE laggy RELATIVE to the faster characters, they have no ability to pressure the faster characters. What the faster character lacks in weight (durability), he makes up for in ability to avoid hits and completely control the spacing/position in the match.

PS - Magus420 is my hero.

 

[iMichael]

No L-canceling blows lol......we'll just have to suck it up though.

 

[Nephiros]

I'm pretty sure those who say L-cancel was in Smash 64's manual may be confusing it for teching, like people did when checking the old SSB site. If not, some actual proof could be nice, though in the end it doesn't really matters.

As for Brawl, I don't see what's the point of making such a fuss about it. Landing aerials seems less laggy now anyways, so if anything it's just kinda automatic L-cancelling, which emphasizes the strategic aspects of the game rather than the technical ones.

 

[Dx-pyrohunter64]

Good on you.

Personally, ROB and the clones are bigger threats than the lack of advanced techs.

I haven't seen much of the clones, I hear in one thread that they've been luigified and in another that they carbon copies of each other, so I can't really comment on that other then I really hope sakurai had a good reason for making clones.

As for ROB, I was 100% against him and hated him with a passion, but after seeing how he plays in a video, I'm actually thinking of using him as my wtf? character, possibly even one of my secondaries lol. His attacks seem really fun to pull off

 

[Dojo999]

No L-canceling blows lol......we'll just have to suck it up though.

I love you.

 

[MeLeo]

Okay, with f&@$in' all these &@%$ stickers and all the other fancy (you get bored of them after a few weeks) addons, you'd think Sakurai and Co. would have added an option to turn L-Cancelling On/Off as a &@%$ COURTESY.

I main Ganondorf and this no L-Cancelling BS just killed my high hopes for Brawl.

Wow, it makes no sense whatsoever to take out L-Canceling...
Teching is still in, but L-Cancelling isn't!?
He couldn't put L-Cancelling in but make it a menu option or something like I said above!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO3yqRNVwI0
Look at 01:51, CF tech rolls. If L-Cancelling really was taken out to appease to the casual smasher, then why the hell is teching still in then?

How the hell did Sakurai figure L-Cancelling should be taken out?
Why the hell does Ganondorf look nerfed while Marth still looks top tier?
Why is Ganondorf slower? (namely run speed, fall speed, and all aerials)

I will main Ganondorf no matter what, but I get the strange feeling that I will be shield grabbed and smashed out of shields a whole lot...

Taking out wavedashing is one thing, you can play very well without it for most characters, but L-Cancelling is mandatory... ESPECIALLY for the slow/heavy characters.
Geez, where did the development team refer to for user feedback? The Melee Gamefaq forums?
Why did they scrap the FastFall L-Cancelling present in the demo? I would have adapted to that.

I for one won't give up hope. Be it a different way to L-Cancel or a future patch, I will not give up hope.
Are any of you guys in denial like me? Please comment, misery loves company

That's really not the point he's getting at. The point he's getting at is that L-canceling reduced lag by half. That means that it had a greater effect on laggier moves. That means that it had a greater benifit for SLOWER CHARACTERS and essential is what made them playable on a competative level. Powerful and Durable is more valuable in other fighters than in smash, because your movement is much more restricted in other games. In smash however, the slower character will simply not be able to hit the faster one, because the other guy will simply interupt it or run or block. That's why those slower characters needed L-canceling. It was the speed boost that allowed them to actually land a few attacks on thier opponents and let their power really shine. Power means nothing if it doesn't hit anything.

Speed on the other hand, is much, much more valuable in smash. That's what creates the gap in smash, not power. It's the ones that can safely attack their opponent, and escape from any counter attacks, that wins. That's pretty easy for them with all the space they have to move around, because they're never really cornered. L-canceling didn't help the fast characters that much because it really only shaved off a few frames (Marth's fair went from 15 to 7, ect.)

L-canceling wasn't just one move, it was 5. Nair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Uair. L-canceling completely changed the uses for these aerials and made gameplay so much faster. L-canceling was the most influential technique.

Quoted for being the most correct, 100% on the dot, KINGLY post ever in all the Brawl forums. You, sir, spoke my mind exactly.

 

[Mekos]

hey guys this game is going to be fine...has anyone ever heard of Power stone 2...one of the greatest games ever on the dreamcast...or maybe mario strikers charged...or mario kart...

All of those games the items are kept on for competitive play...

You guys are looking at it if we dont use items...yes i agrea smash was better without items and more fun...but hey this is a different game lets try touney play with items first...

I think to many people have already rules items out...All im saying is lets first try to play the game it was intended to be played like and not complain about some advanced play that is not here that was in a DIFFERENT game...

 

[WastingPenguins]

As for Brawl, I don't see what's the point of making such a fuss about it. Landing aerials seems less laggy now anyways, so if anything it's just kinda automatic L-cancelling, which emphasizes the strategic aspects of the game rather than the technical ones.

This is patently false, at least for most of the heavies. If you don't believe me, there's a Ganondorf Target Test video floating around and Ganon looks laggier than ever, maybe even more so than Melee. Ike looks pretty bad as well.

As for the people talking about spacing as the solution-- try spacing Ganon's d-air my friends. That doesn't even make sense, and its too bad because that move is laggy as all hell. I just booted up Melee and tried to play some Ganon without l-canceling and I don't think that casual players can really understand just how bad this hurts him. In fact, I KNOW that casual players can't really understand how bad that removing l-canceling from Melee would hurt the depth of that game.

ANYWAY, I still have hope that it'll all work out somehow because of some differences in how the game plays that I am not able to grasp before playing. I'm still looking forward to the game a LOT. However, I don't think it's too crazy to imagine the POSSIBILITY that Brawl could be a bit worse than Melee from a pure gameplay perspective. This isn't really saying that much because, to me, Melee is about as fun, deep, and generally perfect as a game can play. Only time will tell. I guess my point is that, despite my disappointment over this news, I'm still cautiously optimistic and continue to anticipate this game.

 

[Sliq]

Everyone in this thread is noobs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Look at how laggy Ganondorf's aerials are. Good thing they reduced lag, right? Oh wait, Ganon is laggy as ****. People are going to be shield grabbing the **** out of him, not to mention DD camping and then grabbing him as he takes 4 hours ti get up from one attack.

All of the slow characters are going to be worthless because of lag, and so we have effectively reduced the cast in half (for competitives). What fun!

With aerials this laggy, that **** better have MASSIVE knockback and shield stun, otherwise Ganon will be useless.

 

[luckycharmstrixme12]

I am pretty sure this thread is going to be a war against casual v. competitive players.
P.S. Or maybe your mad because you'll suck at smash without l-canceling. Jk. I don't use advanced techniques. I like being my unprofessional nooby self.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Heavy characters can beat fast ones in Melee, but even then it's very difficult if the fast character plays smart enough.

In Brawl it will be virtually impossible even with "Strength and Durability." Since the heavy characters seem to be even MORE laggy RELATIVE to the faster characters, they have no ability to pressure the faster characters. What the faster character lacks in weight (durability), he makes up for in ability to avoid hits and completely control the spacing/position in the match.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q3r54AfB-Qc&feature=user

Ike seems to move just fine without L-cancelling...

Everyone in this thread is noobs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Look at how laggy Ganondorf's aerials are. Good thing they reduced lag, right? Oh wait, Ganon is laggy as ****. People are going to be shield grabbing the **** out of him, not to mention DD camping and then grabbing him as he takes 4 hours ti get up from one attack.

Are we seeing the same video? Except for his fair, his nair and bair hit lightning quick in the air...

 

[choknater]

The thread is incorrect.

Not because there is no L-Cancelling...

but because smash will NOT suck.

 

[WastingPenguins]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q3r54AfB-Qc&feature=user

Ike seems to move just fine without L-cancelling...

Ike doesn't do a single aerial in this video. Not one. How does a video where without even ONE l-cancelable move demonstrate anything about l-canceling? I assure you, Ikes aerials have TONS of lag.

Are we seeing the same video? Except for his fair, his nair and bair hit lightning quick in the air...

I do not mean this in a condescending way, I promise, but do you know what L-canceling does? It cuts down the LANDING lag AFTER the aerial. It doesn't matter how fast his moves come out in the air, the problem is that Ganon sits there for a week AFTER every laggy aerial.