Smash vs Traditional Fighters

[KirbyKaze]

I wrote one out for the Marth matchup and several others long ago. I might dredge them up.

 

[1048576]

Smash is homosexual. There's a lot of ways to cover too many options and we have gigantic reaction windows for a crapload of our tournament staple characters.

I think at this point most of smash is recycled garbage that we know works. While they're not set in stone, the flow chart never lies!

Execution is incredibly important. At this point, it's very likely to die from a technical error or similar misstep. Now, that said, you can still be legitimately stupid and do everything you want and lose just because what you "want" to do isn't what you "need" to do. But this is where terms and personal definitions make everything mucky and difficult to discuss.

Again, the way you're defining execution makes it seem like you're encompassing spacing, timing, reflexes, knowledge, APM, and prediction. In that sense, yeah execution is incredibly important, just like it is in every single other video game. So what are you really trying to say? That smash isn't random? Well that's good. That smash lacks depth? Well lets see your smash flowchart and then lets see something similar for MVC3. I'd imagine you'd find more depth in melee.

As for these giant reaction windows, is there any fighting game faster than melee?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Guilty Gear...?

C'mon, Numbers. You made that easy.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ETWIST51294]

Marvel 2 is also very fast.

GG and MvC2 are the fastest available TBH.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...how could I forget about MvC2?

I have disgraced my family.

*hands Twists a ritual katana. Draws out his own wicked-looking knife.*

Hairy kerry tyme.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Minato]

If we're going by reaction speed and inputs, I'd say Vampire Savior and Super Turbo are two other candidates.

 

[1048576]

It was a genuine question. I'm honestly ignorant. I've played Soul Calibur and every character felt like Bowser, and now I'm playing melee where the best players in the world mess up technically-easy chaingrabs and techchases, because they require very good reflexes.

 

[ETWIST51294]

VS is definitly up there. Esp. is you're playing someone like BB Hood or Bish.

 

[Lythium]

Guilty Gear, obv.

One frame links, all day, every day.

Airdash-input FRCs.

Breaking throws in three frames because level 47 million yomi.

More like unblockable, untechable, undeniable.

Get on my level.

:3c

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

A lot of people go on the SRK forums and think that the fact that the majority of people there think Smash isn't a fighting game, because all the respondents say as much. But it's not like most SRKers are actually competent in the games they play. They are moreso than we are, sure, but the overwhelming majority of those people don't win any tournaments ever, and most of them probably don't think about their game a whole lot outside of playing it.

On the other hand, I was watching a stream of some MvC3 tournament (I don't remember which), and Noel Brown, and a few other high level players were sitting there openly saying that Smash is a fighting game, it's just really weird. And well, Smash is definitely weird.

So just keep in mind next time you try to convince SRK that Smash is a fighting game: it's not a unified front. It also doesn't really matter that much if the Smash community ever gains acceptance outside of SWF. Our community has survived ten years, and is among the most active fg communities--without any help from SRK. We don't need them to like us, as we've already shown.

I would suggest however, that more people take time out to learn and play some other fighting games. There's a lot there to learn. Not only does it give you a better perspective on those games, but I think it also helps your perspective in Smash.

Basically.

Don't take what randoms say seriously. They don't even go to tournaments. Its a bunch of kids trying to analyze the competitiveness of games they don't even play. Capcom nuthugging total.

I don't know why this bugs so many people. People think there is real beef between the communities because of what some SRK randoms say? Put us all in a room and we'll bro out. We could unite with the FG community pretty seamlessly. Just start having AE and Marvel side events at our tournaments and they will start doing the same. And tbh, they have gone to more lengths at including us (see: CEO) than we have of including them.

I wrote one out for the Marth matchup and several others long ago. I might dredge them up.

Please don't.

I'll never beat a Sheik again.

 

[Walt]

Guilty Gear, obv.

One frame links, all day, every day.

Airdash-input FRCs.

Breaking throws in three frames because level 47 million yomi.

More like unblockable, untechable, undeniable.

Get on my level.

:3c

I find slayers 1 frame links hella easy. It's like, the move is over, press any move that uses his legs now. I did 5K>2K>2H>BBU the first time I tired it and can do any of his ground links consistently. I think the one I have most trouble with is 5K>5K>5K>5K>5K lol.

 

[Redact]

I find slayers 1 frame links hella easy. It's like, the move is over, press any move that uses his legs now. I did 5K>2K>2H>BBU the first time I tired it and can do any of his ground links consistently. I think the one I have most trouble with is 5K>5K>5K>5K>5K lol.

Pretty sure 5k>2k>2h>bbu has plenty of lax, no 1 frame or close to it about that

5k repeat is 2 frame iirc?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Again, the way you're defining execution makes it seem like you're encompassing spacing, timing, reflexes, knowledge, APM, and prediction. In that sense, yeah execution is incredibly important, just like it is in every single other video game.

I didn't provide a definition of "execution". I just said it's clearly very important. Because if you can't do what you want to do when you want to do it, then you'll probably just lose by being mistake-punished a bunch.

How important that is depends on how all-encompassing your definition of "execution" is. This is unfortunately one of those terms that we never got a solid definition for, much like "technical skill", "mindgames", and their ilk. I'm not sure to what degree I extend "execution" because it's a vague term by nature. But at its most basic, I think it infers to the ability to do inputs accurately. This is an important skill, for the reasons in my last post (and probably others).

So what are you really trying to say? That smash isn't random? Well that's good.

I was mostly trying to put a lid on that little side topic because I think it's irrelevant to this discussion. No matter what game you play, you will be rewarded for having a certain level of accuracy with your commands. Smash is not unique in this respect.

That smash lacks depth?

I'm not sure how you got here. I think we exaggerate how difficult it is to do some of the stuff we do, though. I also think most stuff can be broken down. I mean, I think I greatly overcomplicate my combos but at the end of the day most characters can follow a basic outline to have good punishments. We so often say, "Smash doesn't have real BnB combos" but I'm somewhat hesitant to agree with this lately.

Well lets see your smash flowchart and then lets see something similar for MVC3. I'd imagine you'd find more depth in melee.

Since people seem to be asking for it...

Sheik vs Marth down throw guide (NTSC):

(0-20)
--------

• u-tilt if he DIs anywhere but away; if he DIs the u-tilt hard away you can regrab him at some percents (often nicks him through his jump), otherwise you have to fair and "reset" him (depending on his DI you can sometimes tilt or whatever before he lands or as he is landing); at the higher end of this range you can uair him and try to link from there but I forget when uair becomes safe to do > if he SDIs the u-tilt up to attempt an escape, delay it a bit so you nick his jump (time it so it'll eat his side b/fair mixup) and then spam buttons until he dies (probably uair)
• Regrab if he DIs away

--------
(20-30)

• SH or FJ (forget which) uair if he DIs anywhere but away > it's not hard to link an aerial after the uair; FJ uair falling uair often trades with his fair and sets him up for additional follows if you're at low percent > if he goes behind you, usually do bair after uair
• Regrab if he DIs away

--------
(30-55ish)

• Some kind of uair if he DIs anywhere but away; you can also u-tilt at this point too iirc and it'll link to fair if he DIs away but I forget when that starts working again
• Dash attack if he DIs away > if he DIs away you can fair, if not you can fair or uair

--------

After that it's basically d-throw u-tilt aerial for a while (forget when it stops working sort of legitimately) and you can start d-throw u-smash KOing him at like mid 70s depending on the level (if he doesn't DI away)

If there's platform interference, either react with uair underneath him or cover 3/4 techs with dair. You can also waveland regrab if you're lazy (and convinced they won't tech stand).

As for these giant reaction windows, is there any fighting game faster than melee?

Others have answered this for me.

But it's not really the answer I wanted, so I'll elaborate. I think the reaction window for most characters is reasonable enough so we can do the staple / standard follows consistently and competently if we train. I also think this game has a great deal of leniency with its combo system because we see so many different combo styles.

While it's good our game provides an outlet for creativity, I cannot help but think it's partially because our game allows the comboing player a lot of room for error. Many times I have seen someone drop a combo spectacularly (as a result of their own mistake) on a space animal and pick it back up by tech chasing something.

tl;dr I think combos are brain-dead easy. And even if you suck, you can just memorize some simple stuff and get good follows even if you're not creative or whatever.

 

[ETWIST51294]

KK, are you saying combos are braindead easy for your character or for all characters?I disagree with Foxes combos being easy.

 

[Brookman]

which of fox's combos are not easy??

 

[Druggedfox]

The super efficient/useful dark combos obv

 

[Niko45]

Certain characters have extremely cut and dry comboing (ex: sheik, CF, Jiggs) but other characters (ex: Marth, Fox, Falco, Peach) have their fair share of BnB but also lots of jank and room for creativity as well.

 

[ETWIST51294]

There are some hard situational combos with Fox.

 

[Winston]

The hardest parts of Fox Comboing to do are like... turnaround utilts and drill -> grab/ drill -> tilt ... but you can usually substitute those things with things that are almost as good.

also, maybe being really, really good at uthrow uair.

As long as you don't hit them the opposite direction in the direction that you're moving from your jump momentum, Fox's ability to techchase/air chase them and hit them from below with bairs/utilt is so good that it gives him that leniency in the punish game that KK talked about.

not TOO difficult.

things like JC waveshining Marth are pretty hard, but arent even that useful I feel.

I do feel like on the fly creativity gives you that extra explosiveness that standardized stuff doesn't. You'll rarely 0-death someone with standardized stuff; you'll just get consistently good punishes. That being said, I think the majority of the player base would vastly improve if they focused on perfecting their standard punishes rather than trying to be creative.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Certain characters have extremely cut and dry comboing (ex: sheik, CF, Jiggs) but other characters (ex: Marth, Fox, Falco, Peach) have their fair share of BnB but also lots of jank and room for creativity as well.

All of those characters have (massive) room for creativity and jank. Smash is fairly lenient on punishment windows (IMHO). What I posted on Sheik is just what I find generally logical. You can of course do all sorts of zany things and half the time it might have a chance of working just because this game doesn't let you block in the air (among other things like SDI and random nonsense).

The risk of doing wacky, zany things is that they might not work that great.

If someone thinks comboing with Fox is difficult, they likely suck at using u-tilt or do not understand his platform game. Or both.

I do feel like on the fly creativity gives you that extra explosiveness that standardized stuff doesn't. You'll rarely 0-death someone with standardized stuff; you'll just get consistently good punishes. That being said, I think the majority of the player base would vastly improve if they focused on perfecting their standard punishes rather than trying to be creative.

This is character / matchup dependent. Some characters are simply not conducive to being 0-deathed by specific characters (or all of them). I do feel there is more potential for people to make mistakes vs non-standard combos simply out of lack of familiarity (or being caught off guard) but in the same token, these standards are so common for a reason...

 

[Roneblaster]

as a wise man named lemondude829 once said:

"can you upthrow up-air?"

"yes"

"then you can play fox"

i miss kirbykaze

 

[Niko45]

Fox and Marth particularly strike me as having the most flexibility in comboing and at many points (mid-combo) they can choose paths with which to take as far as what combo they want to do.

I feel like Marth at least often does not have a clear cut best combo and basically confusing someone's DI is what he wants to do more than anything else.

Has anyone mentioned CCing? That opens up different kinds of combos and pseudo-combos, as well as takes many combos away. Fair dtilt with Marth for instance, is a combo that doesn't exist without CCing.

 

[Roneblaster]

But you can always just fair them a bunch.

 

[MuraRengan]

I often wish I knew another fighting game in-depth enough to make an informed judgement on smash vs other fighters. But every time I think about learning another fighter, I just end up thinking that it would be time better spent getting better at Melee.

However, despite how uninformed I am about other fighters, despite how inexperienced I am with the top levels of Melee, despite how much of an ******* it makes me look, I'd be willing to risk my testicles by saying that Melee is a deepest fighting game out there.

 

[Beat!]

But why? Why make such ignorant statements about things you're not knowledgeable about? You even acknowledged it yourself. What's the point?

And why is it so important that Melee is sooo much "deeper" than other fighters anyway? It's an awesome game either way, Who cares, really.

 

[1048576]

Do most other fighters have a variant knockback system? Soul Caliber really doesn't.

As far as execution is important... eh, the stuff that you don't include in execution (reflexes, prediction, game knowledge) are just as important.

 

[MuraRengan]

But why? Why make such ignorant statements about things you're not knowledgeable about? You even acknowledged it yourself. What's the point?

And why is it so important that Melee is sooo much "deeper" than other fighters anyway? It's an awesome game either way, Who cares, really.

Just as I admitted that I I'm ignorant about other fighters, I'll admit that there is no legitimate defense to the point of proclaiming that Melee is the best fighter or to why it's important that Melee be the deepest fighter.

In short, the point is that it's an easier response to ignorant judgements about Melee for me to be just as ignorant and condescending towards other games as well because getting better at Melee will always be more important than trying to prove idiots wrong.

It matters that Melee is the deepest fighting game because the point brought up about Melee as a fighter is that it is not deep, when, in fact, this is far from the truth. I'm petty, and I want people to respect my game, just as I would respect theirs.

 

[Beat!]

Being ignorant is not a very effective strategy if you want people to respect your game.

 

[MuraRengan]

I'm not being ignorant as an attempt to get them to respect my game. My ignorance is a result of not wanting to learn other fighters. When it comes to trying to get people to respect Melee, I'm doing nothing, because I shouldn't have to go out of my way to demand a respect that should be natural. So I'll settle for returning ignorance with ignorance, and disrespect with disrespect.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Just as I admitted that I I'm ignorant about other fighters, I'll admit that there is no legitimate defense to the point of proclaiming that Melee is the best fighter or to why it's important that Melee be the deepest fighter.

In short, the point is that it's an easier response to ignorant judgements about Melee for me to be just as ignorant and condescending towards other games as well because getting better at Melee will always be more important than trying to prove idiots wrong.

It matters that Melee is the deepest fighting game because the point brought up about Melee as a fighter is that it is not deep, when, in fact, this is far from the truth. I'm petty, and I want people to respect my game, just as I would respect theirs.

You're a well spoken dumb***. What you're saying makes no sense. Prove idiots wrong? If they're idiots, so are you. Stop being a hypocrite. Why is it okay for you to say your game is the deepest fighter when you have no idea about anything other than melee but if they say that it's not deep with no knowledge of smash they're idiots?

You're a bias hypocrite.

Just go on and play your game instead of making baseless statements. Ignorants smashers piss me of MORE than ignorant FG player. Why? Because you guys give them ****ing reasons to bash us. If you don't play anything other than Melee, don't say that your game is the "deepest". We all know it's deep, but the deepest? How the **** would you know? If you do have knowledge other FGs past the scrub stage, say what you want, build a good arguement.

edit: you want more respect? Well stop saying statements like the one I quoted, it makes us look ****ing ********.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm not being ignorant as an attempt to get them to respect my game. My ignorance is a result of not wanting to learn other fighters. When it comes to trying to get people to respect Melee, I'm doing nothing, because I shouldn't have to go out of my way to demand a respect that should be natural. So I'll settle for returning ignorance with ignorance, and disrespect with disrespect.

Respect is earned, Mura. Not handed out to you on a silver platter. Same in life as it is here when it comes to our respective communities.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Brightside6382]

I never understood why smash players are so insecure about their game that they go around saying it's "deeper" with no prior knowledge of any other FG's.

 

[Lythium]

Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

 

[MuraRengan]

You're a well spoken dumb***. What you're saying makes no sense. Prove idiots wrong? If they're idiots, so are you. Stop being a hypocrite. Why is it okay for you to say your game is the deepest fighter when you have no idea about anything other than melee but if they say that it's not deep with no knowledge of smash they're idiots?

You're a bias hypocrite.

Just go on and play your game instead of making baseless statements. Ignorants smashers piss me of MORE than ignorant FG player. Why? Because you guys give them ****ing reasons to bash us. If you don't play anything other than Melee, don't say that your game is the "deepest". We all know it's deep, but the deepest? How the **** would you know? If you do have knowledge other FGs past the scrub stage, say what you want, build a good arguement.

edit: you want more respect? Well stop saying statements like the one I quoted, it makes us look ****ing ********.

I thought I made it perfectly clear that I understood exactly how stupid, biased, w/e I'm being. But if it makes you feel better to chew me out for a fault I'm aware of, then do so.

But for your sake, I'll put this in the proper context.

Smash vs. Other FG Communities is not a two way street. There was never some point in time where both held the same amount of respect for each other. Smash has been discriminated against. Smash has always been the one that is ignorantly looked down upon for no good reason. The Smash community has been the only one that has had to prove its worth. Yet we still get no respect, because the people in other FG communities insist on being stupid. We have always been the ones trying to rationally prove why our community should be respected, and we have always respected other communities. Well, I'm not doing that anymore. If other FG communities want us to prove to them why our game is good, then I think it's time that they also prove to us why their game is good. I think it's time that they demand our respect, instead of us playing the victim all of the time. Respect isn't coming by just being nice, we've been trying that for nearly 10 years. So if they're unwilling to give us that respect, then I won't return it to them. Other FG communities are never going to respect us, so I'm not going to respect them either. The Smash community needs to stop being the victim, stop begging on our knees for the respect of big brother. Saying that smash is a better game than others isn't meant to be a statement of truth, but a statement of faith, of confidence, to tell them they they haven't earned our respect either, because we're a community that respects ourselves and doesn't need the respect of others if they're unwilling to give it.

Respect is earned, Mura. Not handed out to you on a silver platter. Same in life as it is here when it comes to our respective communities.

Smooth Criminal

This is actually exactly my point. I don't know anything about any other fighters, but I see their thriving communities, and the obvious effort they put into learning their games, and I respect that, despite having no reason to respect the game itself. Why should it be any different from them to us? In all truth, other FGs haven't earned my respect, because I don't play them. I've got no reason to respect the other games, other than the faith I place in the people who play it. The Smash community gives respect to other communities and other games. But why? How many of us play those games? And have those communities given us any reason to respect them? If the answer to those two questions is "no" then it's time we stopped respecting them.

I never understood why smash players are so insecure about their game that they go around saying it's "deeper" with no prior knowledge of any other FG's.

That sounds like the opposite of insecurity to me.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I never understood why smash players are so insecure about their game that they go around saying it's "deeper" with no prior knowledge of any other FG's.

Almost worth writing an essay about the psychology behind it all.

Almost.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ETWIST51294]

I thought I made it perfectly clear that I understood exactly how stupid, biased, w/e I'm being. But if it makes you feel better to chew me out for a fault I'm aware of, then do so.

But for your sake, I'll put this in the proper context.

Smash vs. Other FG Communities is not a two way street. There was never some point in time where both held the same amount of respect for each other. Smash has been discriminated against. Smash has always been the one that is ignorantly looked down upon for no good reason. The Smash community has been the only one that has had to prove its worth. Yet we still get no respect, because the people in other FG communities insist on being stupid. We have always been the ones trying to rationally prove why our community should be respected, and we have always respected other communities. Well, I'm not doing that anymore. If other FG communities want us to prove to them why our game is good, then I think it's time that they also prove to us why their game is good. I think it's time that they demand our respect, instead of us playing the victim all of the time. Respect isn't coming by just being nice, we've been trying that for nearly 10 years. So if they're unwilling to give us that respect, then I won't return it to them. Other FG communities are never going to respect us, so I'm not going to respect them either. The Smash community needs to stop being the victim, stop begging on our knees for the respect of big brother. Saying that smash is a better game than others isn't meant to be a statement of truth, but a statement of faith, of confidence, to tell them they they haven't earned our respect either, because we're a community that respects ourselves and doesn't need the respect of others if they're unwilling to give it.

The thing is, you're completely wrong and you have no idea what you're talking about. If they hated us so much why were we at EVO for so long? Why is smash on the front page of SRK when ever something big happens in the community? Why is the biggest insult I've heard to smash for SRK "it isn't a FG"?

You almost never see someone out right say smash is a terrible game. I've have seen where ignorant SRK members say smash isn't hard (but they're most likely talking about Brawl so w.e, can't argue that). Plus, the only community that ever says **** about smash is the capcom community. Not MK, not SNK, not doujins, just them. And again, the most they say is "Smash isn't a FG".

So stop acting like the entire FG scene is just bullying the smash community and we are the victim.

Hell, you don't even know the reason old school players hate smashers. But it's not because of smash I can tell you that much.

 

[Lythium]

It's not insecure so much as completely unfounded.

Though it goes both ways.

/shrug

edit: Welp, ninja'd.

 

[Niko45]

I never understood why smash players are so insecure about their game that they go around saying it's "deeper" with no prior knowledge of any other FG's.

I think you're overthinking it. I at least tend to say Melee is deeper because it's deeper.

Nah, honestly though, I've been really getting into MvC3 recently and that game is really fun nd has a lot going on. Now I know it's not considered the ultimate 2D fighter or whatever but the more I learn about it, the more I appreciate Melee for being that much better.

 

[Pengie]

Oh hey look here an SRK post about an article on tiers! Now why on Earth is the preview picture a Mewtwo? What's that? The article mentions Smash?!? Why look at that it does! I bet those comments are aflame with people tearing the Smash community apart!!! What's that? People are actually being open to Smash as a competitive game?!?

Once again: the "conflict" between the two communities comes from the fact that people on this site like to blow a couple of troll comments from SRK randoms out of proportion and post ignorant comments like Mura's in retaliation in turn making us all look bad.

 

[L7Junkie]

I never understood why it matters which game is the "deepest", especially since most people consider "deep" as nothing more than requiring a lot of button presses, lol (most people, not all, don't attack me *flinch*).

To me, thought process is what makes a game "deep". Which means every game can be "deep", a completely random game like rock-paper-scissors can be "deep" if you put enough thought into which...item, I guess, the other might pick.

But really, why does it matter? Whether or not Smash is the deepest or not, if you love the game, that should be enough. Outsiders don't understand our game? So what, they're not the ones playing it, so their opinions really don't matter. Our tournaments do decent enough without SRK or whoever else. Plus, when you really think about it, Smash IS the deepest... since it's basically the only one of its kind and there's nothing to compare it to, lol.

And you forget, there are thousands that bash us because we play a video game professionally. You just can't win them all, lol. So, if you love Smash, just play Smash and shut up.