Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

Wave 1 DLC with Geno, Rex, and Spring Man. Sounds good for anyone?

Only way this sounds anything other than gross for me is if Spring Man plays like this

 

[Michael the Spikester]

How would you guys feel for Wave 2?

Bandana Dee, Banjo-Kazooie and Isaac

 

[Nekoo]

You know what's great to watch?

Ever since Verg has been talking about that "unusual" Square-Rep that would be out of the Box-art, people see that character as a Day-One DLC.
But what's even greater to watch, is the debate on who it could be. This is like watching an Ace Attorney Debate online about finding who's guilty between Geno, Sora, a DQ Rep (a lot say Eldrick), Chrono and whatnot. Because supposedly that last characters is the only one we can still speculate since Incineroar and Ken might be our last for base game.

I can't wait to see whenever this is true or not... because I will be with any Square Characters since I love their franchise
Even if I have Sora Bias. BUT **** it Chrono would be hype asf and so is Any DQ Rep

 

[osby]

Wave 1 DLC with Geno, Rex, and Spring Man. Sounds good for anyone?

I liked it. I'm really curious about how Spring Man and Rex would fight in Smash.

 

[CosmicQuark]

So if there was one brand new fighter in the base game after Inicneroar and Geno, who do y'all think it's going to be?
My bet's on Elma Because we still don't know why Sakurai bought that Toy Mech...

I think if we get one more big third party character, it would be my bear and bird. ^.^ If Verge is right and there's Minecraft content in the game, it makes sense for Nintendo to negotiate a character if they're negotiating with Microsoft about Minecraft content, which could be a Creeper assist/stage. It all lines up in 2015, however the Minecraft content may have been a last minute addition, and if so, no Microsoft character in the base game.

I'm more skeptical than ever about their chances (post Ultimate's reveal, there was of course a point where their chances were zero), but it would make for a nice big final Smash Direct. I, however, don't think they would end on B&K, but Geno (first/third party distinction is nebulous), mirroring Simon/King K Rool. I find Geno more fitting as a final big announcement, given his huge popularity over the years as a potential Smash newcomer along with Ridley and King K Rool. Also Banjo & Kazooie and Geno make sense to be announced together, as they're third party characters that, to many people, are Nintendo characters (though, that's meaningless, as Simon and King K Rool have no obvious connection).

As long as we get DLC, I’d be fine with Ken and Incineroar being the last fighters in the base game, even though I find it hard to believe they’d save the two least hype characters for last. Maybe Geno will be DLC and they’ll do what they did with Mewtwo?

While I think they *should* end with a bang, it doesn't necessarily mean it's how it will end, and past precedent does indicate Smash tends to leave less hype characters for the final reveals. It just seems weird to make the first announcements with characters like Ridley and K Rool, only to end on a whimper. If there isn't a "big" surprising character left, I have no clue why they didn't just save King K Rool for last. You could say to avoid leaks, but to do that you'd might as well do it all at E3 (even Ridley was leaked before then).

Of course ultimately what order they're revealed in is "because Sakurai wants to". That's the only real answer.

 

[Polan]

Sure, but the reasoning didn't really hold up when Smash 4 or Brawl was leaked. "This can't possibly be the end" skeptics declared. Seriously there were plenty of theories then about linking the 3DS and Wii U versions to get more, or the "final five" if you remember that.
Verge actually does seem to know who it is though. From Gamefaqs:

the name he's heard is probably not geno then if he's afraid of getting mobbed by people for saying it. wonder who it is though...

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Neither were Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf/Toon Link, or Duck Hunt, but those were the last reveals that we got for the last three games.

Those last games weren't ''This is for the fans" through and through however.

Everyone is Here, K. Rool, Ridley, Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus.

So much of this game is built around the concept of Sakurai wanting to please what the fans want.

And you expect him to end on a divisive Pokemon (which pretty much any Pokemon choice will be anyways) and an echo fighter no one really asked for?

Nah. It just doesn't seem realistic to the rest of the project plan and the way things have been going. Literally just throwing one more crowd pleasing character or fan want into base game fixes all of that.

 

[Michele]

Wow, there is a lot of discussion about that CoroCoro mentioning 108 stages. It's like there is going to be a war now. I can see it.

Box Theory Gladiator vs CoroCoro Warriors
of course, I'm neither on the two sides.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

the name he's heard is probably not geno then if he's afraid of getting mobbed by people for saying it. wonder who it is though...

Or on contrast. It is Geno, he doesn't want to be wrong, then get a Waluigi like rampage when or if Geno got de-confirmed.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

So what's new guys?

Isabelle's revealed, preliminary special edition box is driving most people here mad, a terminal cancer patient may not get to play the game in a few months, and a magazine guesses the game might have 108 stages in the base game.

I think I covered all the bases.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Wow, there is a lot of discussion about that CoroCoro mentioning 108 stages. It's like there is going to be a war now. I can see it.

Box Theory Gladiator vs CoroCoro Warriors
of course, I'm neither on the two sides.

CoroCoro warrior here
More content>>>>>>less content

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

the name he's heard is probably not geno then if he's afraid of getting mobbed by people for saying it. wonder who it is though...

I don't blame him though for wanting to be sure. If he said it is Geno, but it actually turned out to be say Terra or Noctis, oh boy Verge is in for a lynching.

 

[papagenos]

the name he's heard is probably not geno then if he's afraid of getting mobbed by people for saying it. wonder who it is though...

He might be afraid of saying its Geno and not being 100% sure cause if it ISNT then he'd get mobbed by fans who have wanted the character for many many years.

He (or his source rather) probably just heard nintendo/square made a deal for a second character and then one of his sources said who it is but not a source hes 100% on.

i'd still think the safe and likely bet is that its geno, obviously im biased tho.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

the name he's heard is probably not geno then if he's afraid of getting mobbed by people for saying it. wonder who it is though...

If he was afraid of that he'd say absolutely nothing because this fandom can't chill

 

[MalcolmBelmont]

I am more inclined to believe the CoroCoro theory over the Box one.

 

[Bestmand902]

How would you guys feel for Wave 2?

Bandana Dee, Banjo-Kazooie and Isaac

It's like you can see into my hopes and dreams...
Multiple waves of DLC characters would be hype alone but especially if these 3 were a part of it

 

[Rie Sonomura]

108 stages? Thank GOD, there’s then no way Incineroar and Ken would be the last ones if there’s 5 more new stages (plus maybe a DLC button).

My guesses on the last 5 stages:
1. Xenoblade X stage (preferably Sylvalum or Noctium, with Elma as a base roster fighter)
2. Minecraft stage (no fighter, may correspond to Banjo & Kazooie as DLC later cause I have a feeling Super Smash Bros. Ultimate X Microsoft may have the latter party ask for royalties for a playable character)
3. Square Enix stage if the character isn’t Geno (hoping for Neku with Shibuya/some TWEWY stage)
4. Devil May Cry stage if the Dante rumor is true. If not, then a Rhythm Heaven stage with Chorus Kids or Karate Joe
5. Tekken stage (if Heihachi is base, which I have a feeling he might be if they recorded his lines prior to his VO’s death) or a Tales of Symphonia stage (if Lloyd is base)

Incineroar, Ken, and if there’s more than those two not counting the ones with stages mentioned: Waddle Dee, Black Shadow, Dixie Kong will not get stages. Isaac would probably be DLC and get Venus Lighthouse as a DLC stage.

 

[Michele]

Oh and I don't know if this is mentioned but... I love how after getting the HD version and after getting the real copy peoples still call it fake. Like...
Screenshot showing that part where it says 108 stages
Peoples: Fake

Screenshot showing the HD version of CoroCoro
Peoples: F-Fake!

Peoples buying that actual copy and realizing it's all real and not photoshopped
Peoples: I-It's a typo!

It's all like that Shulk reveal/character all over again where peoples said 'Photoshopped Little Mac!' expect that despite real proof peoples are saying it's a typo/mistake. This is making me laugh, LOL.

 

[Door Key Pig]

What did Verge recently say yall???

 

[Staarih]

Neither were Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf/Toon Link, or Duck Hunt, but those were the last reveals that we got for the last three games.

Those were secret/hidden characters though (but sure, we got Shulk as the last one pre-release for Smash 4). Anyway, with Sakurai explicitly stating he wants to reveal all fighters before release, I'm inclined to think some sort of "order" would be thought out, with a big name left last. But who knows though, we'll see.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

You know what's great to watch?

Ever since Verg has been talking about that "unusual" Square-Rep that would be out of the Box-art, people see that character as a Day-One DLC.
But what's even greater to watch, is the debate on who it could be. This is like watching an Ace Attorney Debate online about finding who's guilty between Geno, Sora, a DQ Rep (a lot say Eldrick), Chrono and whatnot. Because supposedly that last characters is the only one we can still speculate since Incineroar and Ken might be our last for base game.

I can't wait to see whenever this is true or not... because I will be with any Square Characters since I love their franchise
Even if I have Sora Bias. BUT **** it Chrono would be hype asf and so is Any DQ Rep

Why would someone from Dairy Queen be in Smash? That’s crazy talk, my friend.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

How would you guys feel for Wave 2?

Bandana Dee, Banjo-Kazooie and Isaac

Just replace Isaac With the Chrous Men...
Rhythm Heaven is still relevant (unlike Golden Sun)

 

[Exalt4747]

So besides Vergeben, has anything else of note happened since since the 108 corocoro page?

 

[Murlough]

How would you guys feel for Wave 2?

Bandana Dee, Banjo-Kazooie and Isaac

Miserable because I’d have to spend money on characters I can’t stand.

Bandana Dee is alright but he wouldn’t be my first choice for Ultimate DLC.

Once DLC starts I’m gonna be expecting third parties not more Nintendo. Thats the hype stuff.

 

[papagenos]

What did Verge recently say yall???

he said this.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't understand why 5 stages means more than 2 characters, one is likely Minecraft and there's the possibility that there's other old stages like Poke-Floats or Pac-Maze in there

 

[Megadoomer]

Those last games weren't ''This is for the fans" through and through however.

Everyone is Here, K. Rool, Ridley, Daisy, Chrom, Dark Samus.

So much of this game is built around the concept of Sakurai wanting to please what the fans want.

And you expect him to end on a divisive Pokemon (which pretty much any Pokemon choice will be anyways) and an echo fighter no one really asked for?

Nah. It just doesn't seem realistic to the rest of the project plan and the way things have been going. Literally just throwing one more crowd pleasing character or fan want into base game fixes all of that.

Yeah, that's true. I just remember being annoyed when the Brawl roster was leaked and when an ESRB insider revealed the entire roster for Smash 4 (excluding DLC), and I'm trying to keep my expectations in check this time around.

Even if Incineroar (a Pokemon I'm not familiar with) and Ken (I'm rarely ever excited about echo fighters/clones) are the last two characters added, this game's roster still exceeded all of my expectations. The fact that we got every single veteran back (even ones dismissed as impossible, like Snake) along with long-awaited fan favourites like Ridley and K. Rool has me feeling 100% satisfied with this roster, and anything else is just an added bonus.

 

[Deleted member]

Why would someone from Dairy Queen be in Smash? That’s crazy talk, my friend.

Naturally, if any fast food character got in, it would be Burger King as a Snake echo, as Sneak King is a critically important game to the stealth genre.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Reminder that Box Theory and Coro Coro leak aren't mutually exclusive. They could both be correct.

Vergeben could also be correct, if the SE character is a first dlc reveal.

Honestly this is the stage of speculation where all the pieces should start falling together. But I do hope Sakurai has a surprise that will blow us out of the water, including the possibility of Spirits being a story mode.

 

[drag0nscythe]

SO. Box Theory. This is going to be a large post that I am going to link people to from now on to describe this thing.

This is the box. Why is it so important. For one, it is the special edition box art for the release of Super Smash Bros Ultimate. The game that claims "Everyone is here" and is spouting a massive roster of characters. If you have been following the blog posts and press releases, the major focus of this game is the characters. We have some of the most requested characters released (Ridley, K Rool and Simon) as well as all older characters returning.
The focus on characters is evident by the side of the box and all the marketing, showing off all the characters in a massive wall paper as well as through the collection of images. Why is the box theory here, Lets start breaking down the concept. Since characters are such a focus, it makes sense to put them everywhere.
We were told by Nintendo and Sakurai that this time around, we would know all characters before the release of the game. Every known playable character will be known. If the game is celebrating the characters, and we know everyone will be present, then saying a character will be excluded from the special edition of the game box makes no sense.

Lets break down the sides. There are groupings of 9 as the the box moves down, with each group alternating from side to side. A good graphic that was made by Scoliosis Jones shows it well.

There are 32 on each side of the box. One can argue about Nintendo not caring about numbering before, but they do care about solid look and feel. The only argument that can be made against this design is that the best for last will be on the back. But given the hype cycle, how is Ridley, Simon and Cloud not considered the best? That does not make sense. All characters are being treated as equals. We see it by the one side we have.

I would agree that Smash does not care for the exact number of fighters. But it also has to be seen by breakdown. The fans consider Ivysaur, Squirtle and Charizard as separate movesets, but Nintendo does not. The Mii fighters are considered separate characters even though in the CSS, they share the same space. So the actual number is a mess. And Echos are new characters, but do not go against the official numbering. It is odd. We can say though that the CSS has a visual dynamic to it.

Speaking of CSS

The CSS will have some look to it. If you look at N64, it was a perfect rectangle of 12. Melee had an almost perfect rectangle, with two symmetrical holes on either side. It cause a stir to no end and I am positive it had an effect on how the CSS was designed since then. Brawl was again a perfect rectangle with Random now getting its own space. Smash4 is an odd one. The 3ds looks weird with the base roster, but it looks great on the Wii U. On the flip side, if we look at it with the original intended DLC lineup, the 3DS screen would have been a perfect rectangle with everyone on the screen no problem. The Wii U is the same after DLC. With the addition of Corrin, the perfectness of the item was tarnished, but they made it work.
Why go into all that. The CSS plays a part into the argument.

With the Box hinting at 2 more, the CSS can have tons of meaning, especially with the pure focus on character order. The rows can almost be broken down by game perfectly. Even expanded keeps it close enough, with most of the unique newcomers being pushed to a new row for ultimate alone. Does this mean the CSS will be like that. No. It does not. Could be much different.

Sakurai said not to expect to many newcomers. They did add in everyone from previous games with many changes to each. Most people predicted 6 or so newcomers. As a rough estimate.
Inkling
Ridley
Simon
K Rool
Isabelle
(6th one)

As for echos, it was obvious that they were not having to many newcomers this time around. Best is to pad the roster. And since they were masters at marketing, they are able to get away with inflating their numbers with little effort (which I am fine with. no complaints here.) They are not some kind of master plan. Just a way to make a larger roster to keep excitement. It also lends to easy DLC later.

Given all this circumstantial evidence, it makes sense to assume only 2 more characters. Given all this, lets look at arguments against the theory.

1) We have 2 months to the direct. There has to be more.
A) No. We can skip October entirely. We skipped July. Nothing says they need to have a direct. They could easily do a 50 fact early November. Nothing states we need a character in October.

2) There has to be more. They cannot end on such a weak final Character as [Insert character here]
A) Yes they can. They ended the September Direct with Isabelle. They also have ended past games with weak final characters also. Olimar and Shulk are not big names. Nintendo has a history of having weak end games with release info.

3) The boxart releases all the information to early. It spoils everything. It has to be fake.
A) Nintendo has spoiled things in the past. They released Lucario and Ganondorf by mistake before in promotional materials. Fire Emblem Warriors Box art also spoiled all the characters in that game also. It happens. As for people arguing that it is just a photoshop that can be changed later. I ask them, why so much effort. Why start with Luigi, character 9 and then have sets of 9 alternating from side to side. Why do that if it is a temp piece that will be replaced. This is an image on Amazon that is used for selling that product. I doubt drastic changes are in place. Certain pieces of info can be omitted, but not a heavy redesign.

4) There has to be atleast 3 more. It makes no sense to have 2 left with so much time.
A) Well. If I remember Smash4 50 fact. Mewtwo was the DLC hype character at the end and we had only 2 from that, that were in the base game. It was more focused on the game itself then the characters (which can be a contradiction if you think about it. But last direct was similar.) I expect a similar thing, discussing modes, Spirits, online and DLC. We do not know everything about the game yet, with the 2 blurred spots on the menu screen being an example. The direct will not just be about characters.

5) There are 108 stages. There has to be more characters coming with them.
A) No it doesn't, Adding in another stage for Mario, Kirby, Zelda, Splatoon and even some of the missed Older smash stages is a possibility. It does not mean another character. It just means more stages.

5) The user MasterPeteDiddy posted about this on Gamefaqs arguing against it.

Spoiler: His Post

Amazon uploaded an image of the box that the special edition of SSBU will come in. We can clearly see one side of the box. You can take a look here:

https://www.amazon.com/Super-Smash-...GX4GWC2/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1536981332

34 characters are lined up on the right side of the box, with 2 spaces left.

The other 35 characters we know of are presumably on the left side of the box, with 1 space left.

The characters tend to alternate between sides based on their official numbers. 9 on the left, 9 on the right, 9 on the left, 9 on the right, and so-on, until at the end we have 8 on the left and 7 on the right. Some people are reaching the conclusion that this box tells us that there are 2 characters remaining to be seen (as Isabelle is not on the box) with 1 as a newcomer and 1 as an echo of a character between Palutena and Cloud since those would be the last 8 characters on the left side before switching back to the right. Many people are taking this to mean we'll see a character like Ken or Medusa, and then one more last character. I'd like to propose an alternate theory.

The characters on the right are probably shifted forward one space in the last set of nine to account for blank space in a bottom corner of the left side. This box design was drawn up before Isabelle was even revealed, and obviously is not final. There are probably 2 blank spaces on the bottom right corner of the right side and 1 blank space in the corner of the left side not because those are spaces where specific characters go, but because 69 isn't divisible by 2 or by 36.

Nintendo has separate divisions for things like game design and marketing. Sakurai has stated before that he had nothing to do with the box art of previous games. Right now the roster of this game is one of Nintendo's biggest secrets. Taking this box to mean something would entail believing that Nintendo would trust a box artist with knowledge of the entire roster just so they could make tentative, non-final box art which... does not include the final roster. It's unlikely at best and also kind of silly.

On the official site, there is a mural featuring every character shown so far. It was shown first without Ridley and Daisy, then updated to include them, then updated to include the characters revealed on 8/8/18, and also again updated yesterday to include Isabelle. With every update, characters have been moved around and even resized. (All of the characters are now smaller than they originally were, so that the image can fit more characters.) If they can do this for this giant artwork, constantly, then they can change some tentative box art. I happen to have a promo case for Brawl in my possession, and it is COMPLETELY different. Definitely take this with a grain of salt. Or like, a whole gallon of salt. I doubt this means what it's being extrapolated to mean.

Tl;dr: The box means nothing and y'all are way too thirsty or just not thinking this through enough. The other side of the box probably just has a blank space too. One blank space is on one side with two on the other just so there aren't three black spaces in a row all on the same side. This was an artistic choice made by someone who did not have every asset at hand and who was working on obviously non-final material, nothing more.

A) He is arguing that the box art will ****. Ok. So the lines of are shifted forward so that the spaces are even. Why? We only see one side of the box. Why should they care about shifting it forward to match the sides. This point makes little sense given half the information is hidden. And the purpose of the pattern. Even if we took this point of the shift, still only 2 characters left.
As for the seperate divisions, I highly doubt they are going to release promotion images without having people in the loop. That screams problematic. For the Mural, it is shown to be a living promotional art piece. Not something people will be buying. The box also comes much later in the timeline compared to the mural.
The take-away from his post is that the artwork so far has been living. Which is a fair point if not for the fact that it does not address the look-and-feel of it all. CSS also plays a role. Again show me how the mysterious extra characters fit in. Otherwise, it is all just denial. This post is not adding anything to the argument already discussed..

From all this, (and more will be added as I see it), all the math is pointing to there being only 2 left.

If you want to disagree, fine. But do not just say you disagree. Give proof of the opposite. Show me that the CSS can have meaning and not look like crap with 1-3 more characters outside of the predicted 2. Show me what the box can look like with its current design. If you think the character portraits will shrink on the sides. Prove it. Make a mock in the CSS creator. Give us an idea.

Just saying you do not agree and believing it is crap "because of a feeling" is not acceptable. I have given images and logic to back up the only to more idea. Prove me wrong.

 

[praline]

Yeah, so are you ready to pay for Geno if he is DLC?

Of course I am lol

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Oh and I don't know if this is mentioned but... I love how after getting the HD version and after getting the real copy peoples still call it fake. Like...
Screenshot showing that part where it says 108 stages
Peoples: Fake

Screenshot showing the HD version of CoroCoro
Peoples: F-Fake!

Peoples buying that actual copy and realizing it's all real and not photoshopped
Peoples: I-It's a typo!

It's all like that Shulk reveal/character all over again where peoples said 'Photoshopped Little Mac!' expect that despite real proof peoples are saying it's a typo/mistake. This is making me laugh, LOL.

You show a long box with a mural art and no one notices. You show a box with a few missing slots, or a magazine that says 108, and everyone loses their minds.

 

[Michele]

So besides Vergeben, has anything else of note happened since since the 108 corocoro page?

We're over the box theory I think. At least for now. That theory is one of the dumbest I've heard.
-
Also, wow, Mr. Green-Haired Boy, your post is SO long, but read this: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77004278 The TC counters the box and says that it means nothing. I hate to say it, but I agree with the TC in the thread. The theory is one of the dumbest I've heard in a while.

 

[dezeray112]

So what's new guys?

There is also Vergeben hinting that the speculated Generation VII Pokemon is likely to be Inceniroar and re-iterates that Street Fighter's Ken Masters is also in as Ryu's Echo Fighter.

Source: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096/908847363

Other than that, looking the 108 stages detail from Corocoro, if I were to make a couple of guesses, I expect a stage from Sun and Moon and perhaps a Minecraft stage.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

The thing is, even if Geno is announced as DLC, the salt storm is still going to come because he’ll be ****ing DLC.
Times have changed since Sm4sh. Geno being DLC changes nothing, I’m still afraid of how the community will react. Most people will be pissed that they have to wait to play him rather than be happy he’s in at all.

 

[Dee Dude]

How would you guys feel for Wave 2?

Bandana Dee, Banjo-Kazooie and Isaac

Oh god yes yes yesssss. My 3 most wanted for this game please...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The thing is, even if Geno is announced as DLC, the salt storm is still going to come because he’ll be ****ing DLC.
Times have changed since Sm4sh. Geno being DLC changes nothing, I’m still afraid of how the community will react. Most people will be pissed that they have to wait to play him rather than be happy he’s in at all.

Then the problem isn't Geno being DLC, the problem is people acting like babies about getting what they want but having to wait a bit

 

[SvartWolf]

I don't think if we got DLC that the picks would be popular characters pre switch era, with the exception of very popular ATs ...

I can see stuff like Crash bandicot, Minecraft Steve, Dark Souls Character, Bethesda Character, Arms character, BOTW character or XBC2 character happening instead...

Still, if popular picks like skull kid or geno aren't on base game, expect them on another role like AT or Boss...

And what the thing with people saying that Corocoro info and Box info are mutually exclusive? certainly it opens more teh possibility of what is posible, (and therefore slightly dents box theory) but is perfectly posible that both things are correct anywways ._.

 

[Dee Dude]

Does Geno even need his own CGI trailer? I feel like he’d make perfect DLC imo.

 

[CosmicQuark]

We're over the box theory I think. At least for now. That theory is one of the dumbest I've heard.
-
Also, wow, Mr. Green-Haired Boy, your post is SO long, but read this: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77004278 The TC counters the box and says that it means nothing. I hate to say it, but I agree with the TC in the thread. The theory is one of the dumbest I've heard in a while.

As much as I think the box theory is dumb, there will always be chair theory, the pinnacle of reaching. I've said my piece on box theory--if it is true and not a placeholder, it's a stupid design choice to order them by number, except skip some in the middle to enforce a 9 slot patter with 6 slots per row. As someone who was happy Ultimate is finally ordering characters by their appearance (I can easily spot my character from my memory of past games), that was the first thing I noticed. On the box, Zelda isn't after Sheik, Roy is? Then it's a dumb box.