Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

There is no good business reason for guest characters in Smash.

Except for maybe garnering more sales in general. Or attracting new potential fans.

 

[P.Kat]

So... Assuming the final characters are Incineroar and Ken... Who will be your Smash Ultimate main?
I'm going to main Isabelle and Incineroar all the way

Sheik, Lucina, and Corrin will always be my go to (adding, Chrom to my overly long list of mains), but if we're talking Ultimate only It'd be Chrom, and Isabelle, (Inklings, and Daisy as secondaries). If Ken doesn't come with inputs like Ryu did, I'd main him too, otherwise to the wayside with him.

Which Fire Emblem newcomer seems most likely to you guys at the moment? I know the prospect isn't very popular, but I still think a new Fire Emblem character would be real cool, and very likely regardless.

Fjorm the Lancer with Ice magic, seem very likely considering FE Heroes success, and she one of the main protagonists of the game, so I wouldn't be surprised if they pick her to be a newcomer.

 

[TechPowah]

On the blogpost for Rathalos, they didn't categorize it into a Monster Hunter series tag, which suggests that they don't plan on posting anything else related to MH.

Except they don't use series-specific tags for games that don't already have a stage or character regardless, aside from Smash related things themselves like FD or BF
or else every individual assist would be getting one of those, like Dillon, Brain Age, etc
so not doing so for Rathalos is making sure that, if MH is getting a character and/or stage, the mystery of it all isn't spoiled early

 

[hazza5557]

Where’s Verge’s newest statement?

 

[MSmariosonic]

There is no good business reason for guest characters in Smash.

I think Sonic's presence in Brawl boosted the sales of the game significantly imo

 

[dezeray112]

Which Fire Emblem newcomer seems most likely to you guys at the moment? I know the prospect isn't very popular, but I still think a new Fire Emblem character would be real cool, and very likely regardless.

I'd go with Edelgard of FE: Three Houses and Celica as Robin's Echo Fighter.

 

[Jetsurge]

Which Fire Emblem newcomer seems most likely to you guys at the moment? I know the prospect isn't very popular, but I still think a new Fire Emblem character would be real cool, and very likely regardless.

Black Knight echo is the only thing possible

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

the half dozen claim also fits what he probly knew at the time.
vergeben said "half a dozen more at least" when ridley was our newest character.

vergeben (or a source telling him at least half a dozen more) probly heard rumors of: simon/"more echos"/pokemon rep/isabelle/ken/square rep
vergeben held off revealing these until he got more info on each one individually but was told/knew about "half a dozen at least" as these are the ones he slowly revealed as he felt more confident in them.

then the ones he didnt know: richter/dark samus/chrom/k rool
fill out the "at least" part of "half a dozen more" as there was probably always rumors of there being more than the ones that were "known".

it IS interesting he never seemed to know echos (isabelles echo status or not was confusing to everyone, after i watched the trailer i wasnt sure until i checked the site)... so its very odd Ken as an echo is now one of his leaks (id be shocked 10x more if ken was unique, than i was about isabelle being unique, it literally fits him better to be an echo).

But aren’t echos excluded?



So wouldn’t there be one more

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

It wouldn't be the first time Verge is wrong about something.

For Smash it would be. He's been very careful since his initial post.

Honestly, I don't think he's wrong, even though I'd rather a different Pokemon.

But aren’t echos excluded?



So wouldn’t there be one more

Even though he didn't know about the other echoes, he for some reason knew about Ken. And no where in his post about at least 6 more mentions that it didn't include echoes -

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/8k0li1/comment/e0pemqo

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Where’s Verge’s newest statement?

Right here
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096

 

[papagenos]

But aren’t echos excluded?



So wouldn’t there be one more

yeah but what im saying is he heard rumors of 5 but also "more echos" so came up with "at LEAST half a dozen more"

 

[Michele]

So......if Vergeben is trustworthy, which we know that he is....then we're likely getting Incineroar.

Salt incoming soon. Expect this, like what happened in Smash 4 with the beautiful, witchy Bayonetta.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Bold proves my point. Either way, its not the characters driving sales is it (remember that software pushes hardware). Also, Smash Wii U sold less than NSMBU, Mario 3D Land and Mario Kart 8. Animal Crossing and Pokemon outsold Smash on the 3DS by a lot.

The DLC did better than Nintendo had done in the past but it was overshowed in 2017. Compare download revenue in 2015 and 2017. Nintendo made more money off the Breath of the Wild and Xenoblade 2 Passes than they did with Smash and Mario Kart 8.

There is no good business reason for guest characters in Smash.

You mention this all the time, and it seems as though you consistently miss the fact that people aren’t going to pay $350 or whatever it cost for a Wii U JUST for Smash, or that a lower install base of a home console will lead to fewer people buying a game. OF COURSE Wii U sold less than Brawl, the Wii was the highest selling console Nintendo has ever had. The Wii U having poor 3rd party support and bad marketing impacted the sales of nearly every Nintendo title on the platform.

I’d argue it’s entirely your opinion that there’s “no good business reason” because from other times in which you mention this frustration/dislike you have with 3rd parties, you don’t mention the total numbers. You don’t have the data on how much the deals to acquire the properties/licenses themselves are costing Nintendo.

All I will say, because I don’t really want to argue it considering we both know how the other feels, is that I would say the re-introduction of Snake to this game shows there was demand to bring a 3rd party in.

I don’t know if it’s as much about cost as it is literally making one of the, if not the greatest, crossovers in video game history. You can’t do that without spending a good amount of money. Like it or not, more people are more hyped by reveals of Cloud or Ryu than they would be for Rex & Pyra, and that comes from a guy who really, really wants them in the game.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So......if Vergeben is trustworthy, which we know that he is....then we're likely getting Incineroar.

Salt incoming

As well as the inevitable John Cena Memes. (BTW, If Incineroar doesn't have a green alt, I will be sorely upset)

 

[Untouch]

I find it funny that we're allowed to use box art to imply how many characters are left... but aren't allowed to use the stage select screen to imply how many stages are left. Interesting.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So if we assume Ken got Semi-Clone treatment (and pray that they avoided the bannana hair), what 5 more echos do you think could be in the game?

IMO

Shadow the Hedgehog
Impa/Hilda (Imagine the theory craft that'd make if Zelda/Sheik weren't split)
Yarn Yoshi (If Woolly World is one of the supposed 5 stages)
Black Shadow (Feels right to me)
Slot for random hopes and dreams- Gardevoir, Roll, Blaziken, Big Boss.

 

[Soulsaint]

I hope he is right about DLC coming. Because Heihachi would definately make sense for a DLC character I think. And lets hope Isaac happens too then.

 

[Roberk]

Which Fire Emblem newcomer seems most likely to you guys at the moment? I know the prospect isn't very popular, but I still think a new Fire Emblem character would be real cool, and very likely regardless.

I wouldn't expect one for the base game, we already got Chrom.

Heroes really changes up the DLC scene though, it's influence and presence is huge and if they use CYL as a popularity poll then Hector is the 2nd most popular FE character not in Smash (Lyn's the first but, we know how that went) so maybe we can get Hector. It's also kind of weird that we don't have an FE7 rep yet with that game being the most popular/successful FE game before Awakening and the influence behind it being the first international FE game.

Celica is in a similar situation, she was the most popular female of the 2018 CYL. The thing is that Hector was already popular before Heroes and in the 2017 CYL poll he only just barely lost out to Roy. Celica's popularity might be too new. Shadows of Valentia was also technically a success, but a remake of Gaiden on the 3DS a month after the Switch released is obviously not going to do so hot compared to other DLC options like ARMS, XC2, Three Houses, etc.

For Three Houses:
Byleth is the green-haired guy referred to as "teacher". Edelgard calling him "teacher" and him not talking at all in the trailer almost confirms that he is an avatar character. I also think that he will be a Jagen since teachers are, of course, more experienced than their students.

I think the 3 students (Edelgard, Dmitri, and Claude) will be treated as equally as possible in the story since they represent the titular "Three Houses". If Edelgard continues to have rampant popularity after the game releases, we could maybe get her alone, but I imagine with all of the potential parallelisms between the 3 students that they will be one package. Something I've been suggesting is a Pokemon Trainer-like character with Byleth in the background controlling Edelgard, Dmitri, and Claude. The 3 students each bring a weapon that isn't a sword, and Byleth could represent the actual strategy of using multiple units and weapon types.

Who knows though, we only saw one trailer, so there's only so much that can be speculated. I think Hector has a shot if they want to put in "empirically popular" characters, but I wouldn't' be surprised if Three Houses is pushed or if it is successful and actually earns a rep.

Jugdral remakes with Leif/Sigurd as an actual candidate for DLC Intelligent Systems, please.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So if we assume Ken got Semi-Clone treatment (and pray that they avoided the bannana hair), what 5 more echos do you think could be in the game?

IMO

Shadow the Hedgehog
Impa/Hilda (Imagine the theory craft that'd make if Zelda/Sheik weren't split)
Yarn Yoshi (If Woolly World is one of the supposed 5 stages)
Black Shadow (Feels right to me)
Slot for random hopes and dreams- Gardevoir, Roll, Blaziken, Big Boss.

Shadow (Sonic echo)
Dixie Kong (Diddy Kong Echo)
Impa (Sheik Echo)
Slippy (Fox Echo)
Plusle and Minun (Pichu Echo)

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I find it funny that we're allowed to use box art to imply how many characters are left... but aren't allowed to use the stage select screen to imply how many stages are left. Interesting.

Well you're allowed to do whatever you want, but we know they were covering characters on the box due to Isabelle being missing.

The stages however could be like the 3DS stage select screen.

Btw I don't think they are mutually exclusive. The box theory can be right and we could have 5 more stages.

 

[ProfPeanut]

I find it funny that we're allowed to use box art to imply how many characters are left... but aren't allowed to use the stage select screen to imply how many stages are left. Interesting.

Because stage screens can be freely expanded to accomodate almost any number at any given time, while physical boxes with given dimensions aren't nearly as flexible.

A fake pattern wouldn't have had a pattern at all, let alone one that would've made a jump for Ken.

 

[Staarih]

So, if we assume Ken and Incineroar are our next reveals (until we know any better)... Incineroar would be fighter #69.

Living.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think we get the Awakening styled "dual protagonist" thing yet again with Three Houses. :ultrobin

Technically there were Three protagonists, cause

I think Sonic's presence in Brawl boosted the sales of the game significantly imo

Think...nah man you know that **** is true (v saving everything back in the days of 2008)

Which Fire Emblem newcomer seems most likely to you guys at the moment? I know the prospect isn't very popular, but I still think a new Fire Emblem character would be real cool, and very likely regardless.

anywho...Edelgard or Celica (with Alm being an alt for either Marth or Lucina...cause she life)

As well as the inevitable John Cena Memes. (BTW, If Incineroar doesn't have a green alt, I will be sorely upset)

If Incineroar doesn’t do as many WWE moves as possible, I’ll find him worthless and disappointing (out of petty bias)

So if we assume Ken got Semi-Clone treatment (and pray that they avoided the bannana hair), what 5 more echos do you think could be in the game?

IMO

Shadow the Hedgehog
Impa/Hilda (Imagine the theory craft that'd make if Zelda/Sheik weren't split)
Yarn Yoshi (If Woolly World is one of the supposed 5 stages)
Black Shadow (Feels right to me)
Slot for random hopes and dreams- Gardevoir, Roll, Blaziken, Big Boss.

Shadow, Dixie Kong, Impa or Hilda, and Viridi (still ain’t letting her go)...Ken would’ve been my 5th choice but he got the exclusion

 

[RandomAce]

Looks at page count...

Something tells me I missed something big-

Verge says it’s Incineroar...

Well I guess my prediction was RIGHT, not in the way I wanted it though.

 

[Q-Long]

Hey everyone. I made an unofficial poll that asks, what dormant / dead Nintendo franchises would you like to see revived? (Pick 8). Ignore the URL lol, I know it says 5.

https://qlongg.polldaddy.com/s/what...anchises-would-you-like-to-see-revived-pick-5

I wouldn't expect one for the base game, we already got Chrom.
I think the 3 students (Edelgard, Dmitri, and Claude) will be treated as equally as possible in the story since they represent the titular "Three Houses". If Edelgard continues to have rampant popularity after the game releases, we could maybe get her alone, but I imagine with all of the potential parallelisms between the 3 students that they will be one package. Something I've been suggesting is a Pokemon Trainer-like character with Byleth in the background controlling Edelgard, Dmitri, and Claude. The 3 students each bring a weapon that isn't a sword, and Byleth could represent the actual strategy of using multiple units and weapon types.

Who knows though, we only saw one trailer, so there's only so much that can be speculated. I think Hector has a shot if they want to put in "empirically popular" characters, but I wouldn't' be surprised if Three Houses is pushed or if it is successful and actually earns a rep.

Jugdral remakes with Leif/Sigurd as an actual candidate for DLC Intelligent Systems, please.

I really hope the waifu people are satisfied with all of this Awakening representation... because I would really love Sigurd, Epharaim, or Hector.
I really hate the stereotype that modern Fire Emblem is all fan service. It was just Fates and Awakening (not hating on those two games either) and now its been relegated to the quarantine zone, aka Heroes. Because Shadows of Valentia wasn't like that and 3 Houses doesn't seem to be either. Not only that, those 3 would bring a new weapon to the table and they're all awesome.

The new characters in 3 Houses look all awesome too. I can totally see Edelgard wielding a royal halberd to battle in Smash (if I recall correctly that is her melee weapon of choice).

 

[Megadoomer]

I hope he is right about DLC coming. Because Heihachi would definately make sense for a DLC character I think. And lets hope Isaac happens too then.

I'd be more surprised if DLC wasn't coming, to be honest. While they don't intentionally "save" characters for DLC, it expands the game's shelf-life/popularity/speculation period, makes them a good amount of money between characters/stages/Mii costumes, and it allows them to add characters who wouldn't have been options for the base game. (either due to licensing issues or those characters not existing when development started)

 

[CosmicQuark]

So......if Vergeben is trustworthy, which we know that he is....then we're likely getting Incineroar.

Salt incoming soon. Expect this, like what happened in Smash 4 with the beautiful, witchy Bayonetta.

I think Isabelle was the first to start the flow of salt for Ultimate--Incineroar will cause a flood of salt.

And then Black Knight will be the final reveal--as a unique character.

 

[praline]

I hope he is right about DLC coming. Because Heihachi would definately make sense for a DLC character I think. And lets hope Isaac happens too then.

Nintendo would be crazy not to make dlc characters and stages for Ultimate. They’d make bank from them alone!

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Bold proves my point. Either way, its not the characters driving sales is it (remember that software pushes hardware). Also, Smash Wii U sold less than NSMBU, Mario 3D Land and Mario Kart 8. Animal Crossing and Pokemon outsold Smash on the 3DS by a lot.

The DLC did better than Nintendo had done in the past but it was overshowed in 2017. Compare download revenue in 2015 and 2017. Nintendo made more money off the Breath of the Wild and Xenoblade 2 Passes than they did with Smash and Mario Kart 8.

There is no good business reason for guest characters in Smash.

Why are you comparing Smash to other titles??? What are you trying to imply? How does DLC third party characters in Smash correlate to anything outside of Smash? Again you keep on talking about the base Smash 4 game while ignoring that the WII U was a failure. it should be apparent if not common sense that guest characters from one game isn't going to save a console ( Smash 4 can't outsell Brawl if the Wii U install base is drastically inferior to it without breaking mathematics and causality) Smash 4 helped the Wii U for sure . I'm not arguing for that because that's nonsensical. You also comparing Smash 4 to Switch titles on a console that has a much larger install base than the WII U, not to mention you also comparing revenue without being specific. MK8 only had 2 DLC packs on the WII U (FAILED console) and Deluxe has no DLC. BotW is on both the Switch and Wii U. You again are comparin on a failed console to a very successful console in this case. My case was for left field third party picks broadening Smash appeal and hence increasing revenue. (Smash 4 DLC was a major success in regards to the WII U). I don't see WTF third party characters as base characters; I see them as DLC and it makes sense from a buisness perspective.

You are simply wrong if you believe there is no good buisness reason for adding third party characters. I'm not even saying guest characters because they are ALL returning anyway. Sonic probably will stay in Smash.

I'm also talking about third party DLC since that's where a lot of contention is held since Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta are in. What does revenue on other titles has to do with Smash 4 DLC being a success? If another title made more revenue from their DLC; is that implying that Smash DLC wasn't successful and thus guess characters are not good buisness wise? I'm not seeing the correlation. Far to many variables for that (install base for consoles play a large part on how much revenue a game can make)

 

[osby]

So......if Vergeben is trustworthy, which we know that he is....then we're likely getting Incineroar.

Salt incoming soon. Expect this, like what happened in Smash 4 with the beautiful, witchy Bayonetta.

I mean, Bayonetta (and Shulk and Olimar, to a lesser extend) brought something new to Smash. Incineroar is just another Pokemon, one that judgind by the reactions, not one that more interesting than Lucario or Greninja.

I'm not going to complain about him much if he gets in (he's not even the worst newcomer in this game for me) but it'd a weak ending. Weaker than a character from an niche franchise, imo.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

I still believe the major thing that separates Echoes is having different animations and win screens. The small tweaks to moveset are just to justify them being a different slot in my eyes.

Richter might just only have different taunts and win animations. And that’s what makes me worried.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think Isabelle was the first to start the flow of salt for Ultimate--Incineroar will cause a flood of salt.

And then Black Knight will be the final reveal--as a unique character.

If anything Chrom would’ve been the first Salt Miner, then Isabelle

 

[lightdrago]

Looks at page count...
View attachment 164636
Something tells me I missed something big.

CoroCoro leaked and stated there would be 108 stages, yet uses images from the 8.8 direct like Famitsu, who claims 103 stages. We don’t know if this was a typo or intentional leak.

And if you care for Vergeben, he doubled down and said Incineroar’s in.

 

[Soulsaint]

You know, if Incineroar and Ken are the last ones anounced with spirit mode amd the rest. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are the last characters anounced. Maybe theyll anounce what DLC characters will be coming after release in of the directs. That would explain the gap in time.

 

[Michele]

I mean, Bayonetta (and Shulk and Olimar, to a lesser extend) brought something new to Smash. Incineroar is just another Pokemon, one that judgind by the reactions, not one that more interesting than Lucario or Greninja.

I'm not going to complain about him much if he gets in (he's not even the worst newcomer in this game for me) but it'd a weak ending. Weaker than a character from an niche franchise, imo.

Yeah, but Bayonetta was the most overpowered character that wrecked Smash. Hell, she was the only character who could properly do an zero to KO combo efficiently.

I'm hoping Ultimate doesn't have any character that can do this. Brawl had several characters that could do an OHKO move but it was only because of how knockback worked.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Here’s my take on those unknown stages while keeping the box art theory in mind since I do think the logic for it is sound. Not sold on it but it makes sense to me.

1) Minecraft stage (Steve? as DLC so M$ can reap the money)
2) Monster Hunter stage (cause Rathalos gotta Ratholos on it’s own stage. Monster Hunter as potential dlc character)
3) S/M should get a stage regardless if it gets a rep or not.

Now time to suggest two series without actual representation:
4) Labo City (fight your opponenrs while avoiding against cardboard constructs)
5) Star Link stage (who knows. It’s big now and getting Star Fox content so it could be a way to reciprocate it. However, if not Star Link then maybe...
5a) Fatal Frame stage (it could have potential for a neat albeit freaky stage and FF doesn’t necessary a rep)

Next, here are some suggestions of stages that could fill those two spots (or even the MC and MH spots above to) of repped franchises with new stages:

1) Gangplank-Galleon (didn’t see it before but perhaps they didn’t want to spoil it until later)
2) Ridley’s Lair (same as above)
3) Kirby Star sallies stage
4) Fire Emblem Fates stage
5) Yoshi’s new game constrict stage
6) Gyromite for ROB
7) New Sonic stage
8) Dr Mario pill bottle stage
9) Second SF stage lol (Air Force Base, Flamenco Tavern, Battle Harbour)

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

yeah but what im saying is he heard rumors of 5 but also "more echos" so came up with "at LEAST half a dozen more"

Ok so basicly you think ken might be a acception?

Him being part of the half a dozen despite being the original (alpha) of echo fighters?

I will accept the box theory if that’s the case

 

[link2702]

Yeah, but Bayonetta was the most overpowered character that wrecked Smash. Hell, she was the only character who could properly do an zero to KO combo efficiently.

I'm hoping Ultimate doesn't have any character that can do this. Brawl had several characters that could do an OHKO move but it was only because of how knockback worked.

Bayo definitely isn’t anything close to brawl metaknight levels of brokenness

 

[osby]

Yeah, but Bayonetta was the most overpowered character that wrecked Smash. Hell, she was the only character who could properly do an zero to KO combo efficiently.

I'm hoping Ultimate doesn't have any character that can do this. Brawl had several characters that could do an OHKO move but it was only because of how knockback worked.

Oh, you mean competitve Smash. I can't care about it less, tbh.

 

[Michele]

Bayo definitely isn’t anything close to brawl metaknight levels of brokenness

Um I never mentioned that she was close to Meta Knight's level of brokeness. I only said that she at first just wrecked everyone.