Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Nintendo would be crazy not to make dlc characters and stages for Ultimate. They’d make bank from them alone!

Yeah, so are you ready to pay for Geno if he is DLC?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I honestly have to say I don't think he backed away from his Square rep at all. If anything?

''This comes from a guy who is never wrong."

Makes me believe Verge doesn't lean into box theory and thus believes that the Square Rep IS a thing.

 

[dezeray112]

The only DLC candidates that are highly likely to be an ARMS and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 rep.

 

[link2702]

Um I never mentioned that she was close to Meta Knight's level of brokeness. I only said that she at first just wrecked everyone.

Yeah, but Bayonetta was the most overpowered character that wrecked Smash.

sounds like you did quite clearly there.

 

[MSmariosonic]

At this point i'd rather want Heihachi as DLC

The majority would react quite disappointed if he were to make it in the base roster as yet another fighting game rep. Especially if Incineroar and Ken are a thing.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So if there was one brand new fighter in the base game after Inicneroar and Geno, who do y'all think it's going to be?
My bet's on Elma Because we still don't know why Sakurai bought that Toy Mech...

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I honestly have to say I don't think he backed away from his Square rep at all. If anything?

''This comes from a guy who is never wrong."

Makes me believe Verge doesn't lean into box theory and thus believes that the Square Rep IS a thing.

Well not sure if I understood papa geno right but

If you add incineroar, ken and the Square Enix rep that would create that “atleast half a dozen playable characters thing

 

[Deleted member]

So if there was one brand new fighter in the base game after Inicneroar and Geno, who do y'all think it's going to be?
My bet's on Elma Because we still don't know why Sakurai bought that Toy Mech...

Homura. She’s been teased too hard at this point for it not to happen

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I honestly have to say I don't think he backed away from his Square rep at all. If anything?

''This comes from a guy who is never wrong."

Makes me believe Verge doesn't lean into box theory and thus believes that the Square Rep IS a thing.

You could very well be right, but at the same time Verge may be attempting to construct a back door out in case the info on the Square character is wrong.

At least, that’s what my friends and I think.

Regardless, he certainly isn’t doubling down on it like he did in the same exact post on Incineroar and Ken.

I do think it’s possible that the Square character is the first DLC character, and because it’s going to be epic either way they’ll be shown off toward the end of the final pre-release Smash Direct.

Well, at least that’s my thought.

 

[hazza5557]

As long as we get DLC, I’d be fine with Ken and Incineroar being the last fighters in the base game, even though I find it hard to believe they’d save the two least hype characters for last. Maybe Geno will be DLC and they’ll do what they did with Mewtwo?

 

[Captain Fun]

I honestly have to say I don't think he backed away from his Square rep at all. If anything?

''This comes from a guy who is never wrong."

Makes me believe Verge doesn't lean into box theory and thus believes that the Square Rep IS a thing.

Evidently he's not confident enough to publicly say who it is, even though he's doubling down on Ken and Incineroar.

edit: ninja'd

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'm more inclined to believe 3 than 2.

This game has been about pleasing fans. Incineroar is not a ''crowd pleasing" character to end it on.

Nor is Ken.

I can see both of these getting in, but I do believe the Square rep is Geno and that he is going to be the last ''crowd pleaser." that will end the reveals for base game.

Evidently he's not confident enough to publicly say who it is, even though he's doubling down on Ken and Incineroar.

He's not confident enough to say who the rep is, but he does seem to have confidence in the source of the information.

"The Square Enix character that I heard about is an interesting exception in all of this when it comes to the box theory and my knowledge of there being a character of theirs comes from someone who's never had a habit of being wrong. "

This source he believes to not have a habit of being wrong, which means he trusts them, so thus he does believe the Square Rep to be a thing. He just doesn't seem to know WHO for sure.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

If we get Incineroar, then it looks like I might have myself a new main.

It's a bit too soon to assume that it'd not bring anything new without seeing how it is implemented.

So if there was one brand new fighter in the base game after Inicneroar and Geno, who do y'all think it's going to be?
My bet's on Elma Because we still don't know why Sakurai bought that Toy Mech...

Hard to go wrong with thinking that a Fire Emblem newcomer could be in. Sakurai has no qualms with adding characters from that series.

 

[SmashChu]

You mention this all the time, and it seems as though you consistently miss the fact that people aren’t going to pay $350 or whatever it cost for a Wii U JUST for Smash, or that a lower install base of a home console will lead to fewer people buying a game. OF COURSE Wii U sold less than Brawl, the Wii was the highest selling console Nintendo has ever had. The Wii U having poor 3rd party support and bad marketing impacted the sales of nearly every Nintendo title on the platform.

I’d argue it’s entirely your opinion that there’s “no good business reason” because from other times in which you mention this frustration/dislike you have with 3rd parties, you don’t mention the total numbers. You don’t have the data on how much the deals to acquire the properties/licenses themselves are costing Nintendo.

All I will say, because I don’t really want to argue it considering we both know how the other feels, is that I would say the re-introduction of Snake to this game shows there was demand to bring a 3rd party in.

I don’t if it’s as much about cost as it is literally making one of the, if not the greatest, crossovers in video game history. You can’t do that without spending a good amount of money. Like it or not, more people are more hyped by reveals of Cloud or Ryu than they would be for Rex & Pyra, and that comes from a guy who really, really wants them in the game.

I don't think you people don't realize you are agreeing with me. "They don't want to buy a $350 console to play Smash." OK, well, my point is that guest characters don't affect sales and you are saying that the sales are affected by something other than guest characters (here, the install base).

One thing to note is that I am seeing more people mention that they want less guest characters or that they want it to focus on Nintendo. It use to just be more but I'm hearing it far more often. For instance, here is a thread with someone saying that Nintendo characters should get priority. This was more talking about some of the crazy request, but you get the point.

Totally fine not arguing the point (I've only responded to a few of them). I think what people forget is that people still see Smash as a Nintendo game. A lot of the request for guest are usually tied to Nintendo is some way and when people say to cut characters, they look at the ones with no association (like Cloud). For instance people want Banjo, who was a Nintendo character at one point, and Geno, who was only in a Mario game. I think the only issue is the degree. I'm farther on one side of the spectrum but most people want this to remain about Nintendo.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

It’s Dante.
Geno will be DLC, but the last unrevealed base character is Dante. Mark my words.

 

[link2702]

So if there was one brand new fighter in the base game after Inicneroar and Geno, who do y'all think it's going to be?
My bet's on Elma Because we still don't know why Sakurai bought that Toy Mech...

Some folks think he bought it possibly for geno. I thought it was more for a custom robo character.

But who knows? From what I’ve also heard sakurai is just a big nerd for those mech style toys so he may have just wanted some excuse to add one to his collection.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Oh, you mean competitve Smash. I can't care about it less, tbh.

After EVO, you definitely can care less

I can see both of these getting in, but I do believe the Square rep is Geno and that he is going to be the last ''crowd pleaser." that will end the reveals for base game.

Or they pull a Bayonetta on us all and reveal someone like Clementine (not that I’d be against that)

 

[osby]

As long as we get DLC, I’d be fine with Ken and Incineroar being the last fighters in the base game, even though I find it hard to believe they’d save the two least hype characters for last. Maybe Geno will be DLC and they’ll do what they did with Mewtwo?

"Save the best for last" don't have much utility now that we have preorders.

Also, guys, after K.Rool and Ridley, no character is a crowd pleaser, accept it.

 

[Captain Fun]

I'm more inclined to believe 3 than 2.

This game has been about pleasing fans. Incineroar is not a ''crowd pleasing" character to end it on.

Nor is Ken.

I can see both of these getting in, but I do believe the Square rep is Geno and that he is going to be the last ''crowd pleaser." that will end the reveals for base game.

Sure, but the reasoning didn't really hold up when Smash 4 or Brawl was leaked. "This can't possibly be the end" skeptics declared. Seriously there were plenty of theories then about linking the 3DS and Wii U versions to get more, or the "final five" if you remember that.

He's not confident enough to say who the rep is, but he does seem to have confidence in the source of the information.

"The Square Enix character that I heard about is an interesting exception in all of this when it comes to the box theory and my knowledge of there being a character of theirs comes from someone who's never had a habit of being wrong. "

This source he believes to not have a habit of being wrong, which means he trusts them, so thus he does believe the Square Rep to be a thing. He just doesn't seem to know WHO for sure.

Verge actually does seem to know who it is though. From Gamefaqs:

I really would like to say who the random person said the Square Enix character is. but if it isn't them, I have to deal with a whole other slew of hatred and harassment from people even though I am outright saying I've contacted my people to see if there is anything to what that person is claiming.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don't think you people don't realize you are agreeing with me. "They don't want to buy a $350 console to play Smash." OK, well, my point is that guest characters don't affect sales and you are saying that the sales are affected by something other than guest characters (here, the install base).

One thing to note is that I am seeing more people mention that they want less guest characters or that they want it to focus on Nintendo. It use to just be more but I'm hearing it far more often. For instance, here is a thread with someone saying that Nintendo characters should get priority. This was more talking about some of the crazy request, but you get the point.

Totally fine not arguing the point (I've only responded to a few of them). I think what people forget is that people still see Smash as a Nintendo game. A lot of the request for guest are usually tied to Nintendo is some way and when people say to cut characters, they look at the ones with no association (like Cloud). For instance people want Banjo, who was a Nintendo character at one point, and Geno, who was only in a Mario game. I think the only issue is the degree. I'm farther on one side of the spectrum but most people want this to remain about Nintendo.

I do think it’s interesting regarding Cloud at this point. With Final Fantasy VII coming to Switch, the argument that he “isn’t as closely related to Nintendo” isn’t or at least wouldn’t seem nearly as potent.

At least I don’t think it would. Granted I think focusing on 3rd parties that are more “Nintendo” goes against the purpose of them and would dilute the overall quality. The names we’ve gotten so far are bigger than any “Nintendo” 3rd party people suggest, and personally I think it’s a good thing.

I just wonder about who will be added via DLC.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

I’ll be fine with DLC unless the game comes out and all the DLC is leaked because it’s already on the disc

 

[papagenos]

Ok so basicly you think ken might be a acception?

Him being part of the half a dozen despite being the original (alpha) of echo fighters?

I will accept the box theory if that’s the case

yeah ken would be the exception.

odd vergeben hasnt gotten any echos yet but honestly it might just be a coincidence he never got leaked an echo besides ken (or that he felt confident in any echo he may have heard about enough to come out and leak them).

probably just coincidental OR his sources are like gematsu and have access somehow to EARLY game plans and MOST echos were added later (cause they take less development time)... in fact that even fits with ken cause likely the idea of echos might have started with "ok well obviously ken if we do this echo thing..." and then just added more characters as echos but later in development.

ok i now feel like im guessing waaaay too far into things so maybe ive been speculating a bit too long now haha

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So, 5 extra stages to see huh? One of them is probably the Minecraft content Verge wasn't sure about the details

 

[92MilesPrower]

I'm seeing some hate for 3rd parties on here, and it just bothers me. I mean sure, Smash was always primarily about Nintendo's all stars, but that doesn't mean 3rd party characters shouldn't be included, especially when some are considered pretty much "family" to Nintendo. Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu and Simon are all right at home in Smash, with each of them and most of their games essentially being synonymous with Nintendo. Snake, Cloud and Bayonetta might stand out, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be in Smash. Metal Gear and Final Fantasy are both very popular franchises that had a strong connection with Nintendo back in the 80s and 90s, and either way deserve to be considered some of "gaming's greatest." (Also, Cloud is pretty much THE Final Fantasy guy whether you like it or not.) Bayonetta, essentially being Nintendo exclusive nowadays, was the winner of the ballot, being voted for the most by fans around the entire globe, so she isn't going anywhere, despite the negative reactions to her being overpowered.

TLDR: Ignoring whether or not they push sales, the 3rd party characters are deserving to be in the game. While some may seem right at home moreso than others, they're all considerably "family" for Nintendo because of the importance of the franchises they represent, and/or their connection to Nintendo, and/or their sheer popularity.

 

[osby]

After EVO, you definitely can care less

Or they pull a Bayonetta on us all and reveal someone like Clementine (not that I’d be against that)

EVO was actually really fun. It was nice seeing competitive players having fun for a change.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I’ll be fine with DLC unless the game comes out and all the DLC is leaked because it’s already on the disc

Their online Service is iffy and all, but I'm Pretty sure Nintendo wouldn't stoop that low.
They're No Capcom or EA

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Damn it, out of all the nice gen 7 Pokemons they could've chosen, they pick Incineroar over Tsareena or Decidueye.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

We talking third party characters? Third party characters are hype because they're from hype games. It's not that hard to figure out. Unless you're braindead and got hyped at Ice Climber getting a rerelease

 

[---]

Personally I'm expecting more salt in regards to a potential 2nd Square Enix rep than Incineroar. Either way the last revealed character always gets **** on extra hard.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

Their online Service is iffy and all, but I'm Pretty sure Nintendo wouldn't stoop that low.
They're No Capcom or EA

The thing is, with Vergeben confirming an SE character but saying that the game will be supported post-launch, I’m getting scared that my “pre-order on-disk DLC Geno” theory is true.

 

[Megadoomer]

Bold proves my point. Either way, its not the characters driving sales is it (remember that software pushes hardware). Also, Smash Wii U sold less than NSMBU, Mario 3D Land and Mario Kart 8. Animal Crossing and Pokemon outsold Smash on the 3DS by a lot.

The DLC did better than Nintendo had done in the past but it was overshowed in 2017. Compare download revenue in 2015 and 2017. Nintendo made more money off the Breath of the Wild and Xenoblade 2 Passes than they did with Smash and Mario Kart 8.

There is no good business reason for guest characters in Smash.

These seem like flawed comparisons, particularly the part about Nintendo making more money off of Breath of the Wild and Xenoblade season passes compared to Smash and Mario Kart 8 DLC. The season passes are about four or five times more expensive than individual Smash characters or stages (it reminds me of the claim made in the early days of the Gamecube that Luigi's Mansion made more money in its first day than the first Harry Potter movie made on opening weekend while ignoring the fact that Harry Potter tickets didn't cost $50 each), and they're on a console that is SIGNIFICANTLY more successful. (the Switch surpassed the Wii U's lifetime sales in its first year)

Launch titles like New Super Mario Bros. U make for an unfair comparison (many of them sell extremely well because they're almost no competition at the time - it's a big reason why games like Super Bomberman R and Ultra Street Fighter II sold as well as they did), and assuming you didn't make a typo, you're comparing a Wii U game's sales to the sales of Super Mario 3D Land, a 3DS game, where there's a massive difference in terms of install base. (plus Pokemon and Animal Crossing are much more casual games than Smash, so they're going to sell much better - it's part of what made Wii Fit, Tetris, the Sims, and Minecraft some of the best-selling franchises of all time)

---

As for your last point, there are plenty of good reasons. If a Venn Diagram was made of Smash fans and fans of specific Nintendo properties (Mario, Metroid, Animal Crossing, etc.), there would be plenty of overlap - anyone who's interested in one of those franchises would have likely played Smash Bros. at some point. The same couldn't be said for fans of franchises like Final Fantasy or Castlevania - they're franchises on classic Nintendo consoles, but nowadays, they're on just about everything. There wouldn't be as much overlap, so fans who moved to other consoles would see those characters in Smash, and that would get them interested in the game. (especially if it's a series like Mega Man that had been neglected for a few years)

The Switch's popularity also means that a lot of third party titles (every series in Smash aside from the Konami ones) have made their way to the system, so if someone likes Final Fantasy, plays Smash, and wants to learn more about Ryu, then they could get the Street Fighter anniversary collection.

It seems like a win-win - both Nintendo and the third party companies that are involved attract a broader audience. (plus, it's not like there are a ton of third party characters in the game - there's only nine of them, and that's spread out between eight different series)

 

[Door Key Pig]

- Nope, the time has passed, honestly

But they had a successful game released in the same year as the project plan finalisation!

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So what's new guys?

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Just saw a Gamefaqs post via Push Dustin's Twitter that talked about how 108 is a big number in Japan, a celebratory number, and it could be in reference to the 20th Smash anniversary.

Just intresting! I don't take credit, go to his Twitter to see the Gamefaqs post, I'm bad at linking tweets.

 

[Megadoomer]

I'm more inclined to believe 3 than 2.

This game has been about pleasing fans. Incineroar is not a ''crowd pleasing" character to end it on.

Nor is Ken.

I can see both of these getting in, but I do believe the Square rep is Geno and that he is going to be the last ''crowd pleaser." that will end the reveals for base game.

Neither were Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf/Toon Link, or Duck Hunt, but those were the last reveals that we got for the last three games.

 

[Deleted member]

I for one welcome our new heel wrestler cat overloards. I dunno why, but Incineroar has really grown on me. Rowlet is my favorite starter, but Incineroar’s probably my favorite of the final stages.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Wave 1 DLC with Geno, Rex, and Spring Man. Sounds good for anyone?

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Wave 1 DLC with Geno, Rex, and Spring Man. Sounds good for anyone?

Geno yes!, i'm indifferent for the other two tho.
edit: Actually, i'd be alright with either Spring Man or Ribbon Girl, i like their super-hero aesthetic

 

[Deleted member]

Wave 1 DLC with Geno, Rex, and Spring Man. Sounds good for anyone?

Replace Rex with Ardainian Soldier and it’s perfect.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Just saw a Gamefaqs post via Push Dustin's Twitter that talked about how 108 is a big number in Japan, a celebratory number, and it could be in reference to the 20th Smash anniversary.

Just intresting! I don't take credit, go to his Twitter to see the Gamefaqs post, I'm bad at linking tweets.

That would make sense... Do you guys think Sakurai will Mention The 20th Anniversary during the final Smash direct?