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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


Results are only viewable after voting.
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vaanrose

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The competitive scene was a mistake.

It scares modders to make fun stages, and forces them to make Final Destination or Battlefield clones to please it.
I started the Delta stage trend because I personally love playing on the tri-plats the most, not to appease the competitive scene, which would have never adopt modded stages in the first place.
 
D

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I started the Delta stage trend because I personally love playing on the tri-plats the most, not to appease the competitive scene, which would have never adopt modded stages in the first place.
That’s fine.
I just prefer more complex stages.
 

Blargg888

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You know damn well the Fighter Ballot meant nothing lol
I mean, I don't think anybody "knows" that.

In fact, acting like you "know" that the fighter ballot meant nothing has about as much merit as acting like you "know" that it did mean something.

i.e. none.
 

SmashChu

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In Street Fighter 4, Ultra moves are revenge moves. You can ONLY charge ultra by taking damage in some form. Either temp damage from focus or perm damage from getting hit. In Smash Ultimate, FSM builds by getting hit, hitting, and by trying to hit IIRC. They are not comparable.

We've seen it in action. It breaks the game and, even at pre-release stages, has forced character changes and passive play due to their strength. I know you can't understand why this is a bad thing, because you think ****ing revenge meters are comparable to super meters outside of being able to do a special move, but I ask that you try.
Funny you say I should try but that is what I'm saying the community should do. There will be 7 months from release to the first real major (Apex will be too close anyway). That's 7 months of tournaments to show if something is broken or not. To show if there is a real problem with it. \
What is odd is people complain about the stage list on one hand and how there should be more stages but in the same breath complain about Smash Meters. It feels like the irony is lost on Smash players. The issues are the same. You should make the stage list and see how it runs in tournaments. You should have Super Meters on in competitive play and see how they work.

To your point, you shifted to "FSM is bad because other fighting games you use super." I bring up Ultras and now its "Oh, but that one is a revenge move and this isn't" as if that's different? Ultra moves are guaranteed every round. You can not lose a match without getting at least 2 Ultra moves. Smash doesn't have this as you lose the meter is you die. So yeah, there are differences but I fail to see how the FSM is somehow worse. You only pointed out how they are different.

But returning to my point, you can't complain about the stage list being small while saying you can't try FSM (again, I'm not saying they should be standard, just that they should be experimented). How do you determine a stage may be bad? Experimentation. How do we figure out the FSM is bad? My argument has been that. Experimentation. Yet everyone and there mother decends and say "NO NO NO WE CAN'T DO THAT." I'm not telling you to have CEO and EVO with the meter. I'm saying over the next few months to try it in competitive play and see how it works. I'd say the same for the stage list and Sudden Death. To say it's OK to completely disregard testing one while being for testing another is called being a hypocrite.
 
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ClaTheBae

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After looking at it, it seems as if this stage list will just be a test. These stages are so safe that it's probably just a start until we begin testing the rest, which honestly makes sense.
 
D

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You know damn well the Fighter Ballot meant nothing lol
For Smash Wii U? Probably not.

For Ultimate? It's probably the sole reason we got Ridley, K. Rool, DS, Chrom, Daisy and all the veterans back lol.
 

Luigi The President

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For Smash Wii U? Probably not.

For Ultimate? It's probably the sole reason we got Ridley, K. Rool, DS, Chrom, Daisy and all the veterans back lol.
I'll have to forever dispute the Ballot = Ridley claim
Everything else you got right but Ridley got in because he's ****in' Ridley, the #1 most requested since forever. He didn't have a real Ballot presence.
 

Wyoming

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Tots that ain't true man.
We got K. Rool, Dark Samus, Daisy, Chrom...it meant a lot in the end.
And all the veterans.

I think only Ice Climbers and maybe Wolf would have came back in normal circumstances if we didn't have a ballot. And they would have certainly cut a few out if they didn't see the veterans in high demand.

The ballot gave us Everyone is Here, K. Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Daisy. That's fine by me!
 

ZephyrZ

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  • With the exception of the two you brought up, if you use it, you lose it. The risk of using them is you wont have them when your opponent will. It's like any other game. You have to find the right opportunity to use them.
That's still not the same as other supers which can usually be punished, from my understanding. Besides, that "risk" is made moot by the fact that some are completely unavoidable, like Peach's and Bayonetta's.
  • This may be an issue but it goes back to what I said before. Experiment with them first. Using them improperly can be less than adventitious, especially when Peach/Daisy drop healing items that the opponent can use.
Peach/Daisy's are completely unavoidable when used probably, so I don't see what your point about it "backfiring" here is.
And if you mess up trying to knock the meter out of your opponent, you die at 20-50%. Playing too aggressively against someone with a full meter is dumb.

I'm not sure what that clip proves when all that went wrong there for Sheik was that they mistimed their attack.
  • Over centralizing is a silly argument. What does it really mean. You have to focus on an element of a game oh no. Here's a good example. Look at any Moba. You have to play around Ults all the time. Heroes of the Storm it's especially important as the entire team gets their Ultimate at Lv 10. It's so "over centralized" that teams have to focus on when they hit level 10, they often race to level 10, and getting to level 10 first can win games. It's not had a problem with competitive play and players haven't complained about it. You could make a similar argument about Ultras in SF4. "Over centralized" seems to be a Smash community problem. And again, it goes back to experiment. Show, don't tell.
Overcentralizing means that one element of the game become's so prominent that the game's other features no long carry as much importance. It creates a system where the game has less variety in its viable options then it would otherwise. Why focus on risky things like approaching, juggling, edgedguarding when you can be filling up that sweet sweet meter that kills super early instead? I'll admit that this one point in particular could be tested more, but it's not the only option and I'm pretty sure Bayonetta's FS is so incredibly stupid that testing that move would just be a waste of time anyway.
 

Grunky Peep

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I am serious with some fan favorites kicked out the competitive scene. We are getting 12 playable stages:

Starter Stages

  • Battlefield*
  • Final Destination**
  • Lylat Cruise
  • Smashville
  • Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick Stages

  • Wario Ware
  • Skyloft
  • Arena Ferox
  • Castle Siege
  • Town & City
  • Kalos League
  • Frigate Orpheon
Where's muh Pokemon Stadium 1?
 

Luigifan18

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You can't have a competitive match on a stage that can kill you. A stage can't win a tournament. I understand your point of view, but hazards are completely off the table when it comes to competitive matches. It doesn't showcase player skill, which is the point of competitive Smash
Playing around hazards takes skill.
 

Noipoi

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I'll have to forever dispute the Ballot = Ridley claim
Everything else you got right but Ridley got in because he's ****in' Ridley, the #1 most requested since forever. He didn't have a real Ballot presence.
It's still weird to thing about.

Ridley, Ridley, the number one most requested fighter in Smash history. The eternal meme, Mr. Too Big for Smash, got in. I'm gonna play him. Isn't that insane?

Thanks Sakurai.
 
D

Deleted member

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For Smash Wii U? Probably not.

For Ultimate? It's probably the sole reason we got Ridley, K. Rool, DS, Chrom, Daisy and all the veterans back lol.
I'll argue that Ridley really didn't need the ballot with how much he got supported already.

I mean, I don't think anybody "knows" that.

In fact, acting like you "know" that the fighter ballot meant nothing has about as much merit as acting like you "know" that it did mean something.

i.e. none.
The fact we still don't know results to this day and with the whole Bayonetta thing just makes me very doubtful of the merit of the ballot, imo.

Tots that ain't true man.
We got K. Rool, Dark Samus, Daisy, Chrom...it meant a lot in the end.
I'll even argue that K. Rool was almost close to a Ridley situation where he really didn't need the ballot.
 

Blargg888

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You can't have a competitive match on a stage that can kill you. A stage can't win a tournament. I understand your point of view, but hazards are completely off the table when it comes to competitive matches. It doesn't showcase player skill, which is the point of competitive Smash
Or can it?

Perhaps we'll get Icicle Mountain as a DLC character.

That's right, not a stage, a character.

You can literally play as the incredible [citation needed]
stage that is Melee Icicle Mountain. You'll win every tournament you attend by the sheer power of your Vertical Scrolling attack.
 
D

Deleted member

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Yeesh, and people say the competitive scene behaves immaturely. Some of the reactions to the stage list in this thread are way over the top. You can voice displeasure or disagreement without insulting others or insulting an entire part of the competitive community.

Let's be real, how many of you actually play high level to the point where this would even affect you?
 

Luigi The President

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I'll argue that Ridley really didn't need the ballot with how much he got supported already.



The fact we still don't know results to this day and with the whole Bayonetta thing just makes me very doubtful of the merit of the ballot, imo.



I'll even argue that K. Rool was almost close to a Ridley situation where he really didn't need the ballot.
But that doesn't explain every other choice that was listed. Also, if we're going by a trusted source a moderator here has, the Ballot drew attention to K. Rool that Nintendo had long abandoned. So if we trust that it's indeed why he's in.

Even if you don't trust that, the Ballot explains a ton of other Ultimate picks.
 

vaanrose

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That’s fine.
I just prefer more complex stages.
Then create them. I take umbrage with people complaining how others choose to mod the game. You want something in Smash, then put it there yourself. I'm not even mad that Chronicles Simon is missing, because he won't be missing for long.
 

Nekoo

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Yeesh, and people say the competitive scene behaves immaturely. Some of the reactions to the stage list in this thread are way over the top. You can voice displeasure or disagreement without insulting others or insulting an entire part of the competitive community.

Let's be real, how many of you actually play high level to the point where this would even affect you?
I say "I"
 

ZephyrZ

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Playing around hazards takes skill.
Competitive Smash isn't just about raw skill. It's about getting into your opponent's head, anticipating their movements and options, and outplaying them by staying one step ahead of them whenever possible. Competitive Smashers want to have fights with human opponents, not with stages.
 

SvartWolf

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God, where do I even ****ing begin explaining the false equivalency here.
I think that maybe FSmashes like roy or Kirby arent TOO terrible considering it doesn't have too much active frames, therefore roll is like an actual option, but stuff like zelda Fsmash, Space animals FS, the Belmonts FS, Samus FS and even Link and Marth FS, (and by all the gods Peach/Daisy FS of brokendness) shouldnt be close to anything competitive.

On the other hand, jigglypuff and teh psy boys got terrible FSes taht are more a hindrance than anything.

yeah.. its a fun mechanich for fun matches... but is terrible for anything half serious.
 
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D

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But that doesn't explain every other choice that was listed. Also, if we're going by a trusted source a moderator here has, the Ballot drew attention to K. Rool that Nintendo had long abandoned. So if we trust that it's indeed why he's in.

Even if you don't trust that, the Ballot explains a ton of other Ultimate picks.
Like who, Inkling and Isabelle? It felt pretty obvious given the two franchises massive growth that they'd get reps.

The only character I see that'd be "affected" would be Simon Belmont, but looking across various polls, it never seemed like that was the case.
 

TheCJBrine

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Honestly after hearing about the competitive scene, I always thought keeping the random aspects of Smash Bros. could show a player's skill in avoiding or using said aspects, but nope it's apparently always No Items, High-Tiers only, Final Battlefield. I can understand 1-shot kills like the Ultimate Chimera (run you dumb Pigmasks, stop standing around), and Final Smashes, but gosh.

I'm not really part of the competitive scene, although it has interested me some, at least these past few months.
 
D

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Yeesh, and people say the competitive scene behaves immaturely. Some of the reactions to the stage list in this thread are way over the top. You can voice displeasure or disagreement without insulting others or insulting an entire part of the competitive community.

Let's be real, how many of you actually play high level to the point where this would even affect you?
It makes a lot of modders work with the competitive scene in mind.

Look at the Smash U stage mods at Gamebanana: mosts of the stages are clones of Smashville, Battlefield or Final Destination.
 

Luigi The President

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Like who, Inkling and Isabelle? It felt pretty obvious given the two franchises massive growth that they'd get reps.

The only character I see that'd be "affected" would be Simon Belmont, but looking across various polls, it never seemed like that was the case.
Like...

  • Daisy
  • Dark Samus
  • Chrom
  • All veterans
  • Perhaps even, as you said, Simon Belmont
 
D

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Then create them. I take umbrage with people complaining how others choose to mod the game. You want something in Smash, then put it there yourself. I'm not even mad that Chronicles Simon is missing, because he won't be missing for long.
I don’t have the skill.
But yes, skin mods are better in general for me.

They can get more creative.
 

beans

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I'll argue that Ridley really didn't need the ballot with how much he got supported already.



The fact we still don't know results to this day and with the whole Bayonetta thing just makes me very doubtful of the merit of the ballot, imo.



I'll even argue that K. Rool was almost close to a Ridley situation where he really didn't need the ballot.
They dont want to show the number cuz Goku got its spot stolen.
Also I'm pretty sure we got datamined content showing that Bayo was already in the works before ballot.
Also also, I think they took from the ballot that we wanted the veterans back. So it would choosing all the veterans or many newcomers. The veterans option was the easies to fill.
 

Iridium

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Yeesh, and people say the competitive scene behaves immaturely. Some of the reactions to the stage list in this thread are way over the top. You can voice displeasure or disagreement without insulting others or insulting an entire part of the competitive community.

Let's be real, how many of you actually play high level to the point where this would even affect you?
Me.

But seriously though, with the amount of distractions we've seen on many stages, whether it be hazards or weird platform placements, it's not very surprising to see so many striked out, to be very honest.

I won't deny the fact that FoD is a fair choice, for example, but some stages, like Great Plateau Tower, have those small things with big effects later. Not sure why anyone would complain more than look at the problems with the stages.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
I'll have to forever dispute the Ballot = Ridley claim
Everything else you got right but Ridley got in because he's ****in' Ridley, the #1 most requested since forever. He didn't have a real Ballot presence.
Okay, I'll concede that Ridley probably had nothing to do with the ballot.

I still believe that the rest did, though.
 

ClaTheBae

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Playing around hazards takes skill.
This argument makes no sense. The skill in a fighting game tournament comes from who is better at handling the mechanic of fighting in said game. We are talking about tournament level play. Once again, you cannot have a stage win a tournament. The point of high level competitive play is to see who is better at fighting the other player, introducing obstacles only obstructs that goal.
 

TreeBranch

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Or can it?

Perhaps we'll get Icicle Mountain as a DLC character.

That's right, not a stage, a character.

You can literally play as the incredible [citation needed]
stage that is Melee Icicle Mountain. You'll win every tournament you attend by the sheer power of your Vertical Scrolling attack.
So that's why Wooly World got cut!
It must be playable
Somebody call Zinith
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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I'll argue that Ridley really didn't need the ballot with how much he got supported already.



The fact we still don't know results to this day and with the whole Bayonetta thing just makes me very doubtful of the merit of the ballot, imo.



I'll even argue that K. Rool was almost close to a Ridley situation where he really didn't need the ballot.
Nope K. Rool was because of the ballot

Sakurai confirm he got in from several votes from the ballot

And from this

https://smashboards.com/threads/news-how-fans-brought-back-k-rool.457451/

Not say he did but he may have ben the real “most voted for overall” not Bayonetta

As a matter of fact Nintendo felt embarrassed and guilty they had no idea King K. Rool was that popular and requested

I’m just glad this is looking hugely promising that K. Rool will be returning in future games
 

Starbound

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On one hand I get the OP and unbalanced nature of FS meter. Daisy's FS sucks because there's literally nothing you can do about it.

But on the other, shouldn't characters that have good FS moves be higher tiers? Like isn't that just how it works? Is there anything inherently wrong with a top tier Daisy?
 

Potato_

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I hope Steve becomes top tier when he gets released, just to spit on """competitive"" players
Where is the relation? If you knew competitive players you'd know most of them wouldn't care beyond Steve being a new character that they'd have to learn the matchup of.

Yeesh, and people say the competitive scene behaves immaturely. Some of the reactions to the stage list in this thread are way over the top. You can voice displeasure or disagreement without insulting others or insulting an entire part of the competitive community.

Let's be real, how many of you actually play high level to the point where this would even affect you?
Some people just want to enjoy the core mechanics of the game and not have pokeballs or Smash balls or other stuff interrupt that. I don't understand why that gets people so worked up.

I mean I love competitive smash and I still think the stage decisions are a little overboard. But for some people to suddenly say all of competitive smash is worthless because they won't play on certain stages that drastically change the experience is ridiculous.

They have different priorities than you, and that's okay.
 

ClaTheBae

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On one hand I get the OP and unbalanced nature of FS meter. Daisy's FS sucks because there's literally nothing you can do about it.

But on the other, shouldn't characters that have good FS moves be higher tiers? Like isn't that just how it works? Is there anything inherently wrong with a top tier Daisy?
If we use them in competitive play, then yes, but that would be problematic. When a single move is keeping someone high tier, it's generally pretty annoying.
 
D

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On one hand I get the OP and unbalanced nature of FS meter. Daisy's FS sucks because there's literally nothing you can do about it.

But on the other, shouldn't characters that have good FS moves be higher tiers? Like isn't that just how it works? Is there anything inherently wrong with a top tier Daisy?
The thing is is that you can't really avoid FS like Daisy's. They affect the whole screen and aren't really balanced around competitive play.
 

Shroob

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I think it's tiiiiiiiiiiiiime for me to go on a rant now that it's been almost two weeks since the Direct, and no, this rant has nothing to do with the Direct.


As someone who's been in the speculation scene since Brawl was announced, the Grinch leak was, in my opinion, hands down THE WORST thing to ever happen to this community in regards to speculation.


As stupid as Chair Theory was, it was at least fun, in a 'turn off your brain' kind of way, and was ultimately harmless in the long run.

And box theory, while MANY people hated it, besides the occasional scuffle, it came down to "You either do or don't believe it".

And, to pull from Smash 4 for a bit, although the ESRB leak had much more devastating implications, it really didn't take 'that' long to be proven as real, meaning that, while yes, the debates were bloody and heated, as soon as the gameplay dropped, I'd wager that most people had accepted it as truth by that point.


The Grinch leak however, I don't think I'll ever look back on fondly. The fact that it split the community roughly 80/20, with the 80 being "Team real" and the 20 being "Team fake".....


I'm going to be blunt. I had VERY good reasons to believe that Box Theory was indeed real, in part due to the source that approached ME(No, I won't tell you what they showed me to convince me), so seeing this fanbase be led astray by, what I considered an obviously fake leak was rather upsetting.


My biggest gripe though is how much of an ass a LOT of people on TeamReal became.

When I had to sift through "Boxcucks BTFO", "Box Theorists on suicide watch!" or "Virgin Bin" posts, or how people who actually wanted Incineroar were just "Virgin Bin bandwagoners", this behavior was ****ing unacceptable.


And this didn't help, AT ALL, by the amount of people who probably joined here off of /v/ JUST to have a laugh about "Muh Grinch Leak" and throw all their ****ty memes like......Steve anal vore all over the place. Funny how I'd wager 9/10 of those people flat out have never shown their face here again after the Direct. They didn't join here to discuss, they joined here specifically to be a ****.


Even when TeamFake brought up legitimately good counter-points, everyone just stuck their fingers in their ears and screamed "NOPE, CAN'T HEAR YOU!"..... I'm sorry, but no, no matter HOW much you compress an image, that doesn't excuse the disappearance of very noticeable background elements.



In short, I really have three things to say:


1# Can we stop the whole "THIS GIVES ME ESRB LEAK VIBES!" when discussing image leaks? For the LOVE OF GOD PLEASE? People were "GETTING ESRB VIBES" from the ****ing Agnes leak, and we all know how that turned out. The ESRB leak is like a unicorn. You will probably never see something like it again.


2# When Vaanrose says something, for the love of god LISTEN. I don't know why he puts up with us, but Vaanrose pointing out the inconsistencies with the background should have thrown MASSIVE shade against the leak, but instead people simply dumbed it down to "COMPRESSION DID IT!"


3# Can we, please, stop acting like Smash is special? When the Box came out, I was 100% sure that the person who had approached me was legit, but the Box Theory debates waged on and on because "Nintendo would NEVER! Smash is SPECIAL!"


Nintendo leaked Lucario, Jiggs and Ness in Brawl.

They leaked Ganon in an offscreen indicator in Smash 4.

They leaked an ENTIRE ROSTER for Fire Emblem Warriors.


For the love of god, stop putting Smash on this invisible pedestal, because Nintendo sure as hell doesn't.





Honestly, I just needed to rant, I'm glad the Grinch hoax is dead, and while I'm not happy we only did get two more characters with Piranha Plant, I feel like this should be a wake up call to everyone to stop and ****ing think. Scrutinize images. Don't 'GET ESRB VIBES', and for the love of god, when people like Vaanrose say something, listen.
 
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