Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheCJBrine]

Tbh Smash Bros. isn't a normal fighting game, so imo it wouldn't hurt to embrace the items and some stage hazards every once in a while for a fun tournament...

chaos, chaos

 

[Potato_]

On one hand I get the OP and unbalanced nature of FS meter. Daisy's FS sucks because there's literally nothing you can do about it.

But on the other, shouldn't characters that have good FS moves be higher tiers? Like isn't that just how it works? Is there anything inherently wrong with a top tier Daisy?

There is literally no counterplay to Daisy/Peach FS. You just have to accept that they're going to heal for a ****load and you're going to take a free full charged d-smash.

That's the main issue with Final Smash meters, some are just broken.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Honestly after hearing about the competitive scene, I always thought keeping the random aspects of Smash Bros. could show a player's skill in avoiding or using said aspects, but nope it's apparently always No Items, High-Tiers only, Final Battlefield. I can understand 1-shot kills like the Ultimate Chimera (run you dumb Pigmasks, stop standing around), and Final Smashes, but gosh.

I'm not really part of the competitive scene, although it has interested me some, at least these past few months.

There would be situations where players could skillfully use items to their advantage, but those situations are heavily offset by the random element of luck items bring. It's true that skill will always be important no matter what the ruleset is, but the more chances luck has to screw things over, the less important skill becomes.

 

[Wyoming]

Tbh Smash Bros. isn't a normal fighting game, so imo it wouldn't hurt to embrace the items and some stage hazards every once in a while for a fun tournament...

chaos, chaos

We call those side events.

 

[Double K]

On one hand I get the OP and unbalanced nature of FS meter. Daisy's FS sucks because there's literally nothing you can do about it.

But on the other, shouldn't characters that have good FS moves be higher tiers? Like isn't that just how it works? Is there anything inherently wrong with a top tier Daisy?

Some games with supers have been so imbalanced, that characters are tiered solely on their supers and nothing else.

FS meter isn't a comeback mechanic, it can simply be a win on the spot mechanic

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Hi, what did I miss? last thing I saw was Katalina's boobs and something about sexualizing wimin.

 

[Deleted member]

Nope K. Rool was because of the ballot

Sakurai confirm he got in from several votes from the ballot

And from this

https://smashboards.com/threads/news-how-fans-brought-back-k-rool.457451/

Not say he did but he may have ben the real “most voted for overall” not Bayonetta

As a matter of fact Nintendo felt embarrassed and guilty they had no idea King K. Rool was that popular and requested

I’m just glad this is looking hugely promising that K. Rool will be returning in future games

That's a lot of trust to put into Nintendo for Donkey Kong lol

Like...

• Daisy
• Dark Samus
• Chrom
• All veterans
• Perhaps even, as you said, Simon Belmont

It doesn't feel like these characters would've been that highly placed when we have other characters that fill their place, before Ultimate's reveal that is. Even then I don't remember them "placing high". And the only veterans that everyone wanted back were Snake and Wolf and some for IC, but unanimously across the board it was those two. I don't think these veterans would equate to all veterans.

If we had official numbers, I would've had more faith in who got in and such, but I just can't help but feel a bit cynical about the ballot.

 

[Double K]

Hi, what did I miss? last thing I saw was Katalina's boobs and something about sexualizing wimin.

Oh did I miss another set of talking about Katalina boobs? Rip, because I could have posted more good granboobs that'd be cool fighters for smash

 

[ClaTheBae]

I'm honestly not as big on parrying as I used to be. I feel like it discourages people from approaching to shield pressure and promotes projectile camping. It's not something the game needs.

 

[Double K]

Lol no, Smogonites normally tested things before banning them unless they were blatantly broken. And once they even dropped Kyurem down from Ubers when it turned out it wasn't as broken as it looked. The only reason Smogon rules ban so much is because Pokemon is a horribly, horribly unbalanced game, not because they're super conservative and never willing to take risks.

Case in point, Mimikyu has been officially banned from 1v1 because Disguise combined with its stupidly diverse movepool let it beat anyone 1v1

 

[Pyr]

Funny you say I should try but that is what I'm saying the community should do. There will be 7 months from release to the first real major (Apex will be too close anyway). That's 7 months of tournaments to show if something is broken or not. To show if there is a real problem with it. \
What is odd is people complain about the stage list on one hand and how there should be more stages but in the same breath complain about Smash Meters. It feels like the irony is lost on Smash players. The issues are the same. You should make the stage list and see how it runs in tournaments. You should have Super Meters on in competitive play and see how they work.

To your point, you shifted to "FSM is bad because other fighting games you use super." I bring up Ultras and now its "Oh, but that one is a revenge move and this isn't" as if that's different? Ultra moves are guaranteed every round. You can not lose a match without getting at least 2 Ultra moves. Smash doesn't have this as you lose the meter is you die. So yeah, there are differences but I fail to see how the FSM is somehow worse. You only pointed out how they are different.

But returning to my point, you can't complain about the stage list being small while saying you can't try FSM (again, I'm not saying they should be standard, just that they should be experimented). How do you determine a stage may be bad? Experimentation. How do we figure out the FSM is bad? My argument has been that. Experimentation. Yet everyone and there mother decends and say "NO NO NO WE CAN'T DO THAT." I'm not telling you to have CEO and EVO with the meter. I'm saying over the next few months to try it in competitive play and see how it works. I'd say the same for the stage list and Sudden Death. To say it's OK to completely disregard testing one while being for testing another is called being a hypocrite.

Ok dude. Let me take this a part, piece by piece. Maybe you will be able to understand, then.

1) We've already seen issues it's caused when used in play by players that barely know what they're doing. We have footage proving it is degenerative to competitive play and unfairly benefits some characters over others. It's also proven to loosely not be for competitive play.

2) You say A, so you must say B! That is an argumentative fallacy and the fact you've decided to go there means you both have nothing legitimate to say and you also failed to understand what is being said. Stages =/= FSM meter. They are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

3) I never said FSM was bad because other fighters use Super. I said it's bad because it promotes passive gameplay. The comparison between it and Super meters are bad because Super meters are used for different things outside of a single super move. That adds DEPTHS TO THE SYSTEM. In Smash, FSM doesn't add anything outside of a frame 1-6, invincible, unblockable, in some cases undodgable, move that can kill at 0% in some cases, deal 50% in others, and heal 60% in 2 others. It's not comparable to other fighter's super moves. Most other fighting game supers would LOVE to be as powerful as this. More on this in a second.

4) It's been seen that both players tend to get 1 full FSM PER STOCK. Either that, or close to it. And, for the rest of that paragraph? ****ing watch a video, dude.

5) FSM are so, SO much more powerful then supers in other games. There are very few games that have supers that are capable of the following:

a) healing half a bar of health, while also securing a round and being unblockable
b) dealing half a bar worth of damage while also being unblockable and invincible throughout, making it neigh unpunishable (unless you're an SNK boss).
c) allowing you to win AN ENTIRE ROUND just because you won last round.

1 stock = 1 round, kind of like Killer Instinct. If I were to go back to some of the classic 2.5d fighters and propose any of those as supers, saying you get 1 PER ROUND, I'd be laughed at.

6) You can't say A AND say B! Nope, you can't use a fallacy like that, especially when discussing 2 unlike things.

7) Again, you cannot say that we need to "experiment" with something we've already seen in action. We watched a Rosa switched to Zelda because of FSM. We watched a Mewtwo die at 20% from THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STAGE. We watched a Daisy heal 180% OVER THE COURSE OF A GAME. We watched, for 30 seconds, while one player played hyper-defensively to avoid a FS in one game and to build their FSM in another. They are degenerative to gameplay at a mid to low level. Imagine if the players were really good and abused the mechanic. I agree we should test what we need to test, but it's clear that FSM is not healthy to a competitive environment. YOU want it tested? YOU do the testing.

 

[ClaTheBae]

Case in point, Mimikyu has been officially banned from 1v1 because Disguise combined with its stupidly diverse movepool let it beat anyone 1v1

Damn really? I haven't played in a while so I haven't been in the loop. Toxapex was the most annoying thing I fought in SM OU

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Oh did I miss another set of talking about Katalina boobs? Rip, because I could have posted more good granboobs that'd be cool fighters for smash

nah, the boobs thing was pretty much over when I logged off, and you were still there.

 

[Noipoi]

I think it's tiiiiiiiiiiiiime for me to go on a rant now that it's been almost two weeks since the Direct, and no, this rant has nothing to do with the Direct.

Spoiler: my rant

As someone who's been in the speculation scene since Brawl was announced, the Grinch leak was, in my opinion, hands down THE WORST thing to ever happen to this community in regards to speculation.


As stupid as Chair Theory was, it was at least fun, in a 'turn off your brain' kind of way, and was ultimately harmless in the long run.

And box theory, while MANY people hated it, besides the occasional scuffle, it came down to "You either do or don't believe it".

And, to pull from Smash 4 for a bit, although the ESRB leak had much more devastating implications, it really didn't take 'that' long to be proven as real, meaning that, while yes, the debates were bloody and heated, as soon as the gameplay dropped, I'd wager that most people had accepted it as truth by that point.


The Grinch leak however, I don't think I'll ever look back on fondly. The fact that it split the community roughly 80/20, with the 80 being "Team real" and the 20 being "Team fake".....


I'm going to be blunt. I had VERY good reasons to believe that Box Theory was indeed real, in part due to the source that approached ME(No, I won't tell you what they showed me to convince me), so seeing this fanbase be led astray by, what I considered an obviously fake leak was rather upsetting.


My biggest gripe though is how much of an *** a LOT of people on TeamReal became.

When I had to sift through "Boxcucks BTFO", "Box Theorists on suicide watch!" or "Virgin Bin" posts, or how people who actually wanted Incineroar were just "Virgin Bin bandwagoners", this behavior was ****ing unacceptable.


And this didn't help, AT ALL, by the amount of people who probably joined here off of /v/ JUST to have a laugh about "Muh Grinch Leak" and throw all their ****ty memes like......Steve anal vore all over the place. Funny how I'd wager 9/10 of those people flat out have never shown their face here again after the Direct. They didn't join here to discuss, they joined here specifically to be a ****.


Even when TeamFake brought up legitimately good counter-points, everyone just stuck their fingers in their ears and screamed "NOPE, CAN'T HEAR YOU!"..... I'm sorry, but no, no matter HOW much you compress an image, that doesn't excuse the disappearance of very noticeable background elements.



In short, I really have three things to say:


1# Can we stop the whole "THIS GIVES ME ESRB LEAK VIBES!" when discussing image leaks? For the LOVE OF GOD PLEASE? People were "GETTING ESRB VIBES" from the ****ing Agnes leak, and we all know how that turned out. The ESRB leak is like a unicorn. You will probably never see something like it again.


2# When Vaanrose says something, for the love of god LISTEN. I don't know why he puts up with us, but Vaanrose pointing out the inconsistencies with the background should have thrown MASSIVE shade against the leak, but instead people simply dumbed it down to "COMPRESSION DID IT!"


3# Can we, please, stop acting like Smash is special? When the Box came out, I was 100% sure that the person who had approached me was legit, but the Box Theory debates waged on and on because "Nintendo would NEVER! Smash is SPECIAL!"


Nintendo leaked Lucario, Jiggs and Ness in Brawl.

They leaked Ganon in an offscreen indicator in Smash 4.

They leaked an ENTIRE ROSTER for Fire Emblem Warriors.


For the love of god, stop putting Smash on this invisible pedestal, because Nintendo sure as hell doesn't.





Honestly, I just needed to rant, I'm glad the Grinch hoax is dead, and while I'm not happy we only did get two more characters with Piranha Plant, I feel like this should be a wake up call to everyone to stop and ****ing think. Scrutinize images. Don't 'GET ESRB VIBES', and for the love of god, when people like Vaanrose say something, listen.

The hate against Steve and Incineroar in particular was unbearable, it was embarrassing to watch.
And ironically, the people calling others "Verge bandwagoners" were Grinch leak bandwagoners.

But I won, so I guess it all worked out in the end.

 

[Jetsurge]

I'm still hurt bros...
View attachment 177535
Atleast she still has a shot for DLC.

She's already deconfirmed for dlc

 

[Opossum]

I mean on one hand, yay legal Arena Ferox.

On the other hand my god that stage list is embarrassingly small. Unova or riot.

 

[Deleted member]

The hate against Steve and Incineroar in particular was unbearable, it was embarrassing to watch.
And ironically, the people calling others "Verge bandwagoners" were Grinch leak bandwagoners.

But I won, so I guess it all worked out in the end.

Mind giving me the horseshoe you got that made ya lucky? Wouldn't mind at all to get outta this hole.

 

[Double K]

Damn really? I haven't played in a while so I haven't been in the loop. Toxapex was the most annoying thing I fought in SM OU

Yeah, this video explains it wlel enough

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLRIYsGR784

 

[Noipoi]

Mind giving me the horseshoe you got that made ya lucky? Wouldn't mind at all to get outta this hole.

Nah, I don't gotta horseshoe.

I do have a really weird looking birth mark on my right hand, i've always considered it lucky in a superstitious sorta way. You want it?

 

[Double K]

Nah, I don't gotta horseshoe.

I do have a really weird looking birth mark on my right hand, i've always considered it lucky in a superstitious sorta way. You want it?

Birthmarks are most valuable when on the back of the shoulder and in the star shape

 

[pupNapoleon]

uuh dude i agree with you but idk if this is the place to bring up politics

We discussed sexuality for about fifty pages earlier today.
If a moderator wants to bring up my relevant point of view, I will happily point to that conversation.

A wild political discussion appeared!

I'll pass, thanks. I get mad enough about things that don't matter on the internet.

Yeah. The state of America is much less important than slot number five.

 

[ClaTheBae]

Yeah, this video explains it wlel enough

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLRIYsGR784

Yeah i'll watch this when I'm off work. Did this get backlash? I remember the response to the Aegislash ban back in the day and it was pretty split

 

[Double K]

We discussed sexuality for about fifty pages earlier today.
If a moderator wants to bring up my relevant point of view, I will happily point to that conversation.


Yeah. The state of America is much less important than slot number five.

Look, time and place. People don't want to talk about politics not because of apathy-- I'd hope, but because this isn't the time or place to do so

 

[Grunky Peep]

The ballot was just a conspiracy
This is Vergeban #365 signing out

Vergeben: *says anything*
Smash Speculation Youtubers:

 

[monadoboy]

See, this is why I have a hard time not disliking the competitive community. I dunno, it just seems so... wasteful? To look at all these stages and the work put into them and say, "Eh, most of these don't really work for us, so we're going to BAN them." I mean, I guess I understand the desire to make things "fair" for the sake of showcasing the players' skills, but part of Smash is the craziness and chaos of the stages and the Final Smashes and the Assist Trophies. I just can't understand how competitive play doesn't get boring, and it certainly gets boring to watch for me when it's the same few stages and the same few characters over and over. But it's a case of "to each his own" I suppose.

Smash takes from a lot of different games that attract different crowds. Smash is a celebration of all things Nintendo and video games. For this reason, the competitive scene and competitive elements must exist. Rejecting the chaotic part of Smash is in no way wasteful. You can't "waste" what you didn't want in the first place. Competitive play will never get boring, because that's what competitive players want to play.

Let's make myself an example. When I play a video game, I want to analyze the game and come up with the best strategy to win, and items are 100% RNG wildcards. My way of enjoying Smash reflects the fact that Zelda, Pokemon, Fire Emblem and Xenoblade are my all time favorite franchises. I love competitive, Smogon-like Pokemon gameplay, finding the best way to defeat bosses and solve puzzles in Zelda, training my units and finding out the coolest ways to clear maps in FE and building an OP team to stomp the superbosses in Xenoblade.
Games like Mario Party and Mario Kart just don't appeal to me. They are too irrational, full of spur of the moment chaos that just makes me shake my head and switch games.

To me, craziness and chaos is not part of enjoying video games, it's something that kills my enjoyment. I want to feel in control, I want to plan, I want things to follow a logical pattern that I can unravel. How can I enjoy Assist Trophies and Pokeballs when things like Palkia and Skull Kid show up and take all that away? When a box randomly turns out to be a bomb for no reason, or turns out to be full of many useless items? It doesn't feel like the risk/reward of attacking an enemy unit with a 70% hit rate in FE or using Fire Blast in Pokemon. The "reward" in a Pokeball may turn out to be a Goldeen instead of being punished by Palkia, or a super weak Pokemon that doesn't help at all.

Last time I played Mario Party with my friends we all ended slightly frustrated and just stopped after a short while. We opted instead to play competitive friendlies in Smash and enjoyed the rest of the day. Last time I played Classic mode I quit because I got tired of dumb items and stage hazards getting in the way of the game. If I have to play with items, I'd rather not play. It's not fun, because that's not the type of game that I like to play.

Smash needs to maintain competitive elements to be a true celebration of Nintendo/video games.

I played Brawl for over a thousand hours, I went to many locals for years, and every time I tripped, I felt like the game was punishing me for playing how I want. It's like the game wanted to reject me and my style of playing. I've never looked back at Brawl, not once, after Smash 4 came out, and I don't plan on ever playing it again. Melee? 64? I can play and enjoy, but Brawl? **** Brawl, with a big, bold capital F.

It's borderline insulting when a game that's supposed to be a celebration of video games spits on the reasons you like video games in the first place.

 

[Freduardo]

People talking about what newcomers came from the ballot are missing the obvious.

No, not Bayonetta.

The people have spoken, Pirahna plant, most requested.

Surprised ridley’s In despite his size? Plant doesn’t even need legs.

 

[Double K]

Yeah i'll watch this when I'm off work. Did this get backlash? I remember the response to the Aegislash ban back in the day and it was pretty split

From what I understand, most people who play OU Ladder are really happy for the sake of metagame, disappointed for the sake of fun. Mimikyu had a lot of fun sets to play with, but it had way too much prediction needed and the differences between sets could be as simple as different IVs or item and you had no way of knowing until it hit you

 

[ClaTheBae]

We discussed sexuality for about fifty pages earlier today.
If a moderator wants to bring up my relevant point of view, I will happily point to that conversation.


Yeah. The state of America is much less important than slot number five.

All of those things were fairly lighthearted and mostly related to video games or smash characters. While I completely agree with what you've been saying, there is a certain tone here that I think should be somewhat followed

 

[Noipoi]

Birthmarks are most valuable when on the back of the shoulder and in the star shape

That's a reference I don't understand

 

[pupNapoleon]

Look, time and place. People don't want to talk about politics not because of apathy-- I'd hope, but because this isn't the time or place to do so

And its against forum rules to discuss sexual content, which is ultimately irrelevant.
I reviewed the rules again. Politics are fair game.
So... maybe its not an issue. Or maybe it is. But its certainly not against forum rules.
And it is definitely more important than Katarina's ****.

 

[Shroob]

We talking about Smogon?

Bless those guys, because if I had to deal with one more Sub/Shield/Toxic Aegislash set on ladder I woulda hung myself.


I already hated Aegislash, and then someone made it even MORE obnoxious by turning it into a Stall-based Pokemon.

 

[Grunky Peep]

I think it's tiiiiiiiiiiiiime for me to go on a rant now that it's been almost two weeks since the Direct, and no, this rant has nothing to do with the Direct.

Spoiler: my rant

As someone who's been in the speculation scene since Brawl was announced, the Grinch leak was, in my opinion, hands down THE WORST thing to ever happen to this community in regards to speculation.


As stupid as Chair Theory was, it was at least fun, in a 'turn off your brain' kind of way, and was ultimately harmless in the long run.

And box theory, while MANY people hated it, besides the occasional scuffle, it came down to "You either do or don't believe it".

And, to pull from Smash 4 for a bit, although the ESRB leak had much more devastating implications, it really didn't take 'that' long to be proven as real, meaning that, while yes, the debates were bloody and heated, as soon as the gameplay dropped, I'd wager that most people had accepted it as truth by that point.


The Grinch leak however, I don't think I'll ever look back on fondly. The fact that it split the community roughly 80/20, with the 80 being "Team real" and the 20 being "Team fake".....


I'm going to be blunt. I had VERY good reasons to believe that Box Theory was indeed real, in part due to the source that approached ME(No, I won't tell you what they showed me to convince me), so seeing this fanbase be led astray by, what I considered an obviously fake leak was rather upsetting.


My biggest gripe though is how much of an *** a LOT of people on TeamReal became.

When I had to sift through "Boxcucks BTFO", "Box Theorists on suicide watch!" or "Virgin Bin" posts, or how people who actually wanted Incineroar were just "Virgin Bin bandwagoners", this behavior was ****ing unacceptable.


And this didn't help, AT ALL, by the amount of people who probably joined here off of /v/ JUST to have a laugh about "Muh Grinch Leak" and throw all their ****ty memes like......Steve anal vore all over the place. Funny how I'd wager 9/10 of those people flat out have never shown their face here again after the Direct. They didn't join here to discuss, they joined here specifically to be a ****.


Even when TeamFake brought up legitimately good counter-points, everyone just stuck their fingers in their ears and screamed "NOPE, CAN'T HEAR YOU!"..... I'm sorry, but no, no matter HOW much you compress an image, that doesn't excuse the disappearance of very noticeable background elements.



In short, I really have three things to say:


1# Can we stop the whole "THIS GIVES ME ESRB LEAK VIBES!" when discussing image leaks? For the LOVE OF GOD PLEASE? People were "GETTING ESRB VIBES" from the ****ing Agnes leak, and we all know how that turned out. The ESRB leak is like a unicorn. You will probably never see something like it again.


2# When Vaanrose says something, for the love of god LISTEN. I don't know why he puts up with us, but Vaanrose pointing out the inconsistencies with the background should have thrown MASSIVE shade against the leak, but instead people simply dumbed it down to "COMPRESSION DID IT!"


3# Can we, please, stop acting like Smash is special? When the Box came out, I was 100% sure that the person who had approached me was legit, but the Box Theory debates waged on and on because "Nintendo would NEVER! Smash is SPECIAL!"


Nintendo leaked Lucario, Jiggs and Ness in Brawl.

They leaked Ganon in an offscreen indicator in Smash 4.

They leaked an ENTIRE ROSTER for Fire Emblem Warriors.


For the love of god, stop putting Smash on this invisible pedestal, because Nintendo sure as hell doesn't.





Honestly, I just needed to rant, I'm glad the Grinch hoax is dead, and while I'm not happy we only did get two more characters with Piranha Plant, I feel like this should be a wake up call to everyone to stop and ****ing think. Scrutinize images. Don't 'GET ESRB VIBES', and for the love of god, when people like Vaanrose say something, listen.

Don't forget, Nintendo also accidentally leaked Simon with a music track on the website.

 

[Double K]

Crackpot: Cygames rep is another one of their popular girls who appears in several games

aka

Dark Angel Olivia

 

[Shroob]

Don't forget, Nintendo also accidentally leaked Simon with a music track on the website.

To be blunt about that one, there's reason to believe someone within the company intentionally leaked that. The day before it happened, someone went on 4chan saying that they were going to leak the new character via the music.

 

[Double K]

And its against forum rules to discuss sexual content, which is ultimately irrelevant.
I reviewed the rules again. Politics are fair game.

******, I was making wishes for death against Sugiyama last night-- which I still stand by.

The difference is knowing when the conversation calls for it. Don't bring up a goddamn non sequitur statement so you can talk politics when 99% of the people in the thread would rather avoid it because it's a subject that never ends well

 

[Iridium]

People talking about what newcomers came from the ballot are missing the obvious.

No, not Bayonetta.

The people have spoken, Pirahna plant, most requested.

Surprised ridley’s In despite his size? Plant doesn’t even need legs.

But the feet, though.

I like to think it has legs, but as "stems".

Edit: Roots, from what I hear?

 

[TheCJBrine]

To be blunt about that one, there's reason to believe someone within the company intentionally leaked that. The day before it happened, someone went on 4chan saying that they were going to leak the new character via the music.

Yup, Intern-kun was fed up with his low pay.

 

[ClaTheBae]

I reviewed the rules again. Politics are fair game.

Rule 7 is literally that we don't bring up politics in any thread

 

[Double K]

Rule 7 is literally that we don't bring up politics in any thread

Oh **** owned lol

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I really hope the next game doesn't have Smashville in it...

aw but I love Smashville