Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ZephyrZ]

WHAT!!!! A special move resulting in victories. It's not like that has never happen in another competitive fighting game befo.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri-00IYp9-U

Thanks for proving my point thought.

We've discussed this quite extensively in its dedicated thread. Some major points against their inclusion that makes them different from other fighting game supers.

- There's no risk to using them, as they're impossible to punish.
- Some of them, like Peach's and Bayonetta's, are completely unavoidable, making them inherently unfair.
- They encourage camping. People can camp to build up their meter, and people will attempt to camp an opponent with a full meter because they're too dangerous to approach.
- They're over centralizing. You could argue that this is something that needs to be tested more I'll admit, but so far it appears that matches revolve far too heavily around Final Smashes since they're so powerful and charge so quickly, which means they carry far too much weight in the match and makes the rest of a character's kit much less important.

 

[Idon]

WHAT!!!! A special move resulting in victories. It's not like that has never happen in another competitive fighting game befo.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri-00IYp9-U

Thanks for proving my point thought.

God, where do I even ****ing begin explaining the false equivalency here.

 

[TreeBranch]

Counter-argument: If we assume it was sometime during development that DLC was decided on, then I could argue Sakurai added content for characters he knew wouldn't be on the DLC as a consolation prize.

(And the "the line-up is now complete" could simply be a statement to minimize the amount of requests flooding his social media. It could have been decided earlier but they only tweeted that so Sakurai stops getting harrassed. I doubt they'd finish the entire DLC negotiation process a few days after its announcement)

Of course we will never know until we see the first character or two. Heh.

That's what I'm thinking. No way he decided to include Rex as a bonus for buying the pass before deciding on the actual pass fighters

 

[Deleted member]

I think the whole "Rex can't be in Smash" is overblown. In general, I feel like people are coming up with their own rules with DLC rather than just observing what happened.

Nintendo is choosing the DLC but Sakurai made the game. He has even mentioned the DLC line-up was just completed. You are talking about two different parties involved here. One made the game and has placed things like the spirits or the Mii costumes in and the other is another entity (though publishing the game) that is deciding what they want. Rex is popular, XC2 did very well and Nintendo sees Smash as pushing their IPs. I don't think they'd say "Oh, we can't add him because of this Mii costume." More likely Sakurai's comment was about the main game, not the DLC.

It'd be pretty ****ing stupid to give a Mii Costume for Rex meant to make up for the fact he's not playable as a bonus for buying the DLC pack if he's in said DLC pack.

 

[-crump-]

Look, I'm not a big competitive guy, but even to me this looks incredibly confusing.

Why on earth is the stage list that small? Banning FoD when that's a staple competitive Melee stage? All this seems to promote is zero variety.

The rules state that Hazards Off will be on with no changes. Under this rule, the platforms on FoD don’t move, thus making it another Battlefield copy and deeming it redundant.

The reason for a small stage list is because it shortens the amount of time spent striking beforehand and counterpicking between games. It’s not optimal, but it makes sense for a very early tournament. I reckon a better system will get thought up eventually to make more stages available.

 

[Pyr]

In Street Fighter 4, Ultra moves can't be used for anything else besides the Ultra move. They are also often stronger than Super moves which is also where you EX moves come from. Ultra moves even get stronger the more damage you've taken, making them an extreme comeback mechanic. Street Fighter 4 never had problems and the game actually resulted in a sort of golden age of fighting games.

It goes back to what I said before. The community isn't even willing to experiment with something and just says "NO WE CAN'T HAVE THIS." How about people actually run it in tournament before saying it's bad?

In Street Fighter 4, Ultra moves are revenge moves. You can ONLY charge ultra by taking damage in some form. Either temp damage from focus or perm damage from getting hit. In Smash Ultimate, FSM builds by getting hit, hitting, and by trying to hit IIRC. They are not comparable.

We've seen it in action. It breaks the game and, even at pre-release stages, has forced character changes and passive play due to their strength. I know you can't understand why this is a bad thing, because you think ****ing revenge meters are comparable to super meters outside of being able to do a special move, but I ask that you try.

 

[kirbsmash]

Pikachu, in that movie, looks....mostly the same.

 

[beans]

Implying Nintendo would ever use Yoshi for anything
#YoshiGangRiseUp

Obligatory "Zinith awakens"

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

I think the whole "Rex can't be in Smash" is overblown. In general, I feel like people are coming up with their own rules with DLC rather than just observing what happened.

Nintendo is choosing the DLC but Sakurai made the game. He has even mentioned the DLC line-up was just completed. You are talking about two different parties involved here. One made the game and has placed things like the spirits or the Mii costumes in and the other is another entity (though publishing the game) that is deciding what they want. Rex is popular, XC2 did very well and Nintendo sees Smash as pushing their IPs. I don't think they'd say "Oh, we can't add him because of this Mii costume." More likely Sakurai's comment was about the main game, not the DLC.

I think the stronger argument against Rex is that Xenoblade 2 music is already in the game. If you think about it, there's an implication that the music included with the DLC characters is worth the price, so presumably, they wouldn't have included Xenoblade 2 music in the base game if there was going to be a Xenoblade 2 pack.

 

[FreeFox]

Geez 10% are you kidding me, can't they just use the alternate forms?

I am serious with some fan favorites kicked out the competitive scene. We are getting 12 playable stages:

Starter Stages

• Battlefield*
• Final Destination**
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick Stages

• Wario Ware
• Skyloft
• Arena Ferox
• Castle Siege
• Town & City
• Kalos League
• Frigate Orpheon

 

[Noipoi]

I taught my baby cousin to sing Gangplank Galleon.
The future is looking bright.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Y'know, Skull Kid may be an assist trophy again, but dang his new animation is pretty cool. Instead of the purple void, you have this nice green void surrounding him, plus the entire background of the stage becomes a huge green void.

I like green. I like Skull Kid.

I also doubt he's a boss because of his AT not doing any attacks, but hey it's possible I guess. It would be cool since he's not playable anyway, but I expect LeakyPandy to be wrong once again.

 

[Gyrom8]

Well at least WarioWare will be legal
It better ****ing be

 

[monadoboy]

But we are getting like 10% of all stages as playable. It is totally underwhelming when we have such a huge stage selection. It looks like a waste of work. If this was the selection for competitive and I was Sakurai, I wouldnt even bother with the stage Hazard toggle for the next smash. 90% of all that work was for nothing. I know you probably arent but having a small selection of stages is really boring. And that list is really terrible (there are many stages that are being thrown of the window because of similar stage look). I know that not every stage needs to be playable, walk off stages should remian banned and the same with stages with campy places but this looks like other extreme. Instead of making all stages playable, they are putting almost every stage as unplayable. Wouldnt it be better if we could reach a happy médium between the two?

Honestly, "waste of work" was one of my first thoughts when I saw so many stages returning. It's great, yes, but it's too much.

Players have to put hours and hours of lab/practice on those extra stages. I think it should be up to the majority of players to decide.

 

[Deleted member]

The competitive scene was a mistake.

It scares modders to make fun stages, and forces them to make Final Destination or Battlefield clones to please it.

 

[SmashChu]

Uhhhhhh, did you see ALL of the parry's he did before he used his super combo?

And games like street fighter are much more scrutinized into terms of balancing so most characters have actual tradeoffs to having a decent super combo

The Watch these and see how often Ultra moves win matches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf_TOEmtyac

We've discussed this quite extensively in its dedicated thread. Some major points against their inclusion that makes them different from other fighting game supers.

- There's no risk to using them, as they're impossible to punish.
- Some of them, like Peach's and Bayonetta's, are completely unavoidable, making them inherently unfair.
- They encourage camping. People can camp to build up their meter, and people will attempt to camp an opponent with a full meter because they're too dangerous to approach.
- They're over centralizing. You could argue that this is something that needs to be tested more I'll admit, but so far it appears that matches revolve far too heavily around Final Smashes since they're so powerful and charge so quickly, which means they carry far too much weight in the match and makes the rest of a character's kit much less important.

• With the exception of the two you brought up, if you use it, you lose it. The risk of using them is you wont have them when your opponent will. It's like any other game. You have to find the right opportunity to use them.
• This may be an issue but it goes back to what I said before. Experiment with them first. Using them improperly can be less than adventitious, especially when Peach/Daisy drop healing items that the opponent can use.
• You lose meter when you die so there is a good reason to fight back. From what I've seen, the best way to deal with them is to just play aggressively. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A3Oa0WQwrg&t=84s
• Over centralizing is a silly argument. What does it really mean. You have to focus on an element of a game oh no. Here's a good example. Look at any Moba. You have to play around Ults all the time. Heroes of the Storm it's especially important as the entire team gets their Ultimate at Lv 10. It's so "over centralized" that teams have to focus on when they hit level 10, they often race to level 10, and getting to level 10 first can win games. It's not had a problem with competitive play and players haven't complained about it. You could make a similar argument about Ultras in SF4. "Over centralized" seems to be a Smash community problem. And again, it goes back to experiment. Show, don't tell.

It's the same thing I've said before. It should be experimented with. It should be tried. So far, no one can show how it's so bad because there really haven't been many tournaments. The game isn't even out yet and no one has tried to run one with it. I hear a lot of people claiming "we discussed it" but you haven't tested it, which is my entire argument. Its the same thing with the stages.

 

[KiBom]

I am serious with some fan favorites kicked out the competitive scene. We are getting 12 playable stages:

Starter Stages

• Battlefield*
• Final Destination**
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick Stages

• Wario Ware
• Skyloft
• Arena Ferox
• Castle Siege
• Town & City
• Kalos League
• Frigate Orpheon

Like there's way better ways to do this. Sakurai gave us a shot ton of stages and were just not using them. We could easily have a list that looks like this.

Neutral:

Battlefield or any BF Form
Final Destination or any Omega Form
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Yoshi's Story (Brawl) HO
Pokemon Stadium 2 HO
Warioware HO
Yoshi's Island HO
Frigate Orpheon HO
Unova Pokemon League HO
Kalos Pokemon League HO

Counterpick:

Dream Land
Peach's Castle HO
Rainbow Cruise HO
Brinstar HO
Pokemon Stadium
Lylat Cruise HO
Castle Siege HO
Smashville
Magicant HO
Arena Ferox HO
Skyloft HO
Town and City HO
Wuhu Island HO
Dracula's Castle HO
Mushroom Kingdom U HO

The Watch these and see how often Ultra moves win matches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf_TOEmtyac

• With the exception of the two you brought up, if you use it, you lose it. The risk of using them is you wont have them when your opponent will. It's like any other game. You have to find the right opportunity to use them.
• This may be an issue but it goes back to what I said before. Experiment with them first. Using them improperly can be less than adventitious, especially when Peach/Daisy drop healing items that the opponent can use.
• You lose meter when you die so there is a good reason to fight back. From what I've seen, the best way to deal with them is to just play aggressively. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A3Oa0WQwrg&t=84s
• Over centralizing is a silly argument. What does it really mean. You have to focus on an element of a game oh no. Here's a good example. Look at any Moba. You have to play around Ults all the time. Heroes of the Storm it's especially important as the entire team gets their Ultimate at Lv 10. It's so "over centralized" that teams have to focus on when they hit level 10, they often race to level 10, and getting to level 10 first can win games. It's not had a problem with competitive play and players haven't complained about it. You could make a similar argument about Ultras in SF4. "Over centralized" seems to be a Smash community problem. And again, it goes back to experiment. Show, don't tell.

It's the same thing I've said before. It should be experimented with. It should be tried. So far, no one can show how it's so bad because there really haven't been many tournaments. The game isn't even out yet and no one has tried to run one with it. I hear a lot of people claiming "we discussed it" but you haven't tested it, which is my entire argument. Its the same thing with the stages.

The problem is some fighters are pretty good without them and completely busted with them. Your Peach/Daisy counterexample doesn't make sense as the sleeping time provides you time to kill the opponent and get all the healing items before they wake up.

 

[Starbound]

I really hope the next game doesn't have Smashville in it...

 

[Deleted member]

I taught my baby cousin to sing Gangplank Galleon.
The future is looking bright.

Excellent.

Now teach them Ashley's Theme!

 

[FreeFox]

Honestly, "waste of work" was one of my first thoughts when I saw so many stages returning. It's great, yes, but it's too much.

Players have to put hours and hours of lab/practice on those extra stages. I think it should be up to the majority of players to decide.

I am not going to ask for 30-50 playable stages. Having at least 20 would have been excellent for me.

 

[TreeBranch]

I think the stronger argument against Rex is that Xenoblade 2 music is already in the game. If you think about it, there's an implication that the music included with the DLC characters is worth the price, so presumably, they wouldn't have included Xenoblade 2 music in the base game if there was going to be a Xenoblade 2 pack.

It's not even the fact it has music, but more that it was specifically shown off by Sakurai to show that Xenobalde 2 was indeed getting representation. Rex and Springman's pretty much deconfirmations makes me pretty doubtful anyone introduced past them will make it in

 

[monadoboy]

I think the stronger argument against Rex is that Xenoblade 2 music is already in the game. If you think about it, there's an implication that the music included with the DLC characters is worth the price, so presumably, they wouldn't have included Xenoblade 2 music in the base game if there was going to be a Xenoblade 2 pack.

On the other hand, there's never enough Xenoblade music until the entire OST of all three games is in

 

[Iridium]

I really hope the next game doesn't have Smashville in it...

Eh, it's fine. Boring, but it's fine. I do wish players would branch away from that stage a bit more for other stages, though.

 

[Oz37]

See, this is why I have a hard time not disliking the competitive community. I dunno, it just seems so... wasteful? To look at all these stages and the work put into them and say, "Eh, most of these don't really work for us, so we're going to BAN them." I mean, I guess I understand the desire to make things "fair" for the sake of showcasing the players' skills, but part of Smash is the craziness and chaos of the stages and the Final Smashes and the Assist Trophies. I just can't understand how competitive play doesn't get boring, and it certainly gets boring to watch for me when it's the same few stages and the same few characters over and over. But it's a case of "to each his own" I suppose.

 

[Deleted member]

Like there's way better ways to do this. Sakurai gave us a shot ton of stages and were just not using them. We could easily have a list that looks like this.

Neutral:

Battlefield or any BF Form
Final Destination or any Omega Form
Fountain of Dreams
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Yoshi's Story (Brawl) HO
Pokemon Stadium 2 HO
Warioware HO
Yoshi's Island HO
Frigate Orpheon HO
Unova Pokemon League HO
Kalos Pokemon League HO

Counterpick:

Dream Land
Peach's Castle HO
Rainbow Cruise HO
Brinstar HO
Pokemon Stadium
Lylat Cruise HO
Castle Siege HO
Smashville
Magicant HO
Arena Ferox HO
Skyloft HO
Town and City HO
Wuhu Island HO
Dracula's Castle HO
Mushroom Kingdom U HO

Alright Drac's Castle and Mushroom Kingdom U are debatable but Magicant should never be legal.
You wanna see what that stage is like without hazards you can literally find a mod for it for Wii U Smash 4 on gamebanana. The bottom platform makes it so unfun.

 

[Blargg888]

• This may be an issue but it goes back to what I said before. Experiment with them first. Using them improperly can be less than adventitious, especially when Peach/Daisy drop healing items that the opponent can use.

Except the opponent can't use them, because they'd be asleep.

 

[ClaTheBae]

The Watch these and see how often Ultra moves win matches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf_TOEmtyac

• With the exception of the two you brought up, if you use it, you lose it. The risk of using them is you wont have them when your opponent will. It's like any other game. You have to find the right opportunity to use them.
• This may be an issue but it goes back to what I said before. Experiment with them first. Using them improperly can be less than adventitious, especially when Peach/Daisy drop healing items that the opponent can use.
• You lose meter when you die so there is a good reason to fight back. From what I've seen, the best way to deal with them is to just play aggressively. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A3Oa0WQwrg&t=84s
• Over centralizing is a silly argument. What does it really mean. You have to focus on an element of a game oh no. Here's a good example. Look at any Moba. You have to play around Ults all the time. Heroes of the Storm it's especially important as the entire team gets their Ultimate at Lv 10. It's so "over centralized" that teams have to focus on when they hit level 10, they often race to level 10, and getting to level 10 first can win games. It's not had a problem with competitive play and players haven't complained about it. You could make a similar argument about Ultras in SF4. "Over centralized" seems to be a Smash community problem. And again, it goes back to experiment. Show, don't tell.

It's the same thing I've said before. It should be experimented with. It should be tried. So far, no one can show how it's so bad because there really haven't been many tournaments. The game isn't even out yet and no one has tried to run one with it. I hear a lot of people claiming "we discussed it" but you haven't tested it, which is my entire argument. Its the same thing with the stages.

That doesn't null the points of it promoting camping, (which I think parrying already does). That's something we really don't want in this game. Sure other fighters have it but the way this game works is vastly different from other games that use ults

 

[Grunky Peep]

Eh, it's fine. Boring, but it's fine. I do wish players would branch away from that stage a bit more for other stages, though.

*COUGH* Fountain of Dreams *COUGH*

 

[monadoboy]

The competitive scene was a mistake.

It scares modders to make fun stages, and forces them to make Final Destination or Battlefield clones to please it.

Eh, I prefer the competitive scene to modders by a landslide, and no one is really forcing them to do anything.
Heck, I remember a stage completely based on the "Heyyeeyyeah" He-Man meme and there was nothing competitive about that.

 

[Noipoi]

Excellent.

Now teach them Ashley's Theme!

You.
I like you.

 

[Deleted member]

That's what I'm thinking. No way he decided to include Rex as a bonus for buying the pass before deciding on the actual ballot fighters

You know damn well the Fighter Ballot meant nothing lol

 

[KiBom]

Alright Drac's Castle and Mushroom Kingdom U are debatable but Magicant should never be legal.
You wanna see what that stage is like without hazards you can literally find a mod for it for Wii U Smash 4 on gamebanana. The bottom platform makes it so unfun.

I made this in like 2 minutes there definitely could be some mistakes on it. My point still stands that 12 is far too few though.

 

[Deleted member]

Eh, I prefer the competitive scene to modders by a landslide, and no one is really forcing them to do anything.
Heck, I remember a stage completely based on the "Heyyeeyyeah" He-Man meme and there was nothing competitive about that.

You are lucky.
Most of the stages mods that i find are Battlefield or Final Destination mods.

 

[Deleted member]

See, this is why I have a hard time not disliking the competitive community. I dunno, it just seems so... wasteful? To look at all these stages and the work put into them and say, "Eh, most of these don't really work for us, so we're going to BAN them." I mean, I guess I understand the desire to make things "fair" for the sake of showcasing the players' skills, but part of Smash is the craziness and chaos of the stages and the Final Smashes and the Assist Trophies. I just can't understand how competitive play doesn't get boring, and it certainly gets boring to watch for me when it's the same few stages and the same few characters over and over. But it's a case of "to each his own" I suppose.

The resounding opinion on reddit is negative, and they usually have a much more competitive mindset. I can see the stage list changing with time.

 

[Gyrom8]

Y'know, Skull Kid may be an assist trophy again, but dang his new animation is pretty cool. Instead of the purple void, you have this nice green void surrounding him, plus the entire background of the stage becomes a huge green void.

I like green. I like Skull Kid.

I also doubt he's a boss because of his AT not doing any attacks, but hey it's possible I guess. It would be cool since he's not playable anyway, but I expect LeakyPandy to be wrong once again.

Tbh Skull Kid got a pretty good deal as far as non-playable characters go. The fact that you can have a Mii costume and Majora's Mask is great, as you can sort of cover up the fact that you're playing as a Mii. Of course, it's nothing like the real thing moveset wise, but it's a lot better than other characters got, many of whom are stuck with derpy looking Mii faces.

 

[beans]

Yo, why dont we change the Smashville stage name to Amiibo Festival.
No one will play that.

 

[Luigi The President]

You know damn well the Fighter Ballot meant nothing lol

Tots that ain't true man.
We got K. Rool, Dark Samus, Daisy, Chrom...it meant a lot in the end.

 

[ClaTheBae]

See, this is why I have a hard time not disliking the competitive community. I dunno, it just seems so... wasteful? To look at all these stages and the work put into them and say, "Eh, most of these don't really work for us, so we're going to BAN them." I mean, I guess I understand the desire to make things "fair" for the sake of showcasing the players' skills, but part of Smash is the craziness and chaos of the stages and the Final Smashes and the Assist Trophies. I just can't understand how competitive play doesn't get boring, and it certainly gets boring to watch for me when it's the same few stages and the same few characters over and over. But it's a case of "to each his own" I suppose.

You can't have a competitive match on a stage that can kill you. A stage can't win a tournament. I understand your point of view, but hazards are completely off the table when it comes to competitive matches. It doesn't showcase player skill, which is the point of competitive Smash

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

I am serious with some fan favorites kicked out the competitive scene. We are getting 12 playable stages:

Starter Stages

• Battlefield*
• Final Destination**
• Lylat Cruise
• Smashville
• Pokemon Stadium 2

Counterpick Stages

• Wario Ware
• Skyloft
• Arena Ferox
• Castle Siege
• Town & City
• Kalos League
• Frigate Orpheon

This is gonna make the competitive scene stale, it's a shame that they don't use Alpha and omega stages.

 

[Noipoi]

Tots that ain't true man.
We got K. Rool, Dark Samus, Daisy, Chrom...it meant a lot in the end.

Inklings too.
I mean, they were basically confirmed anyway but they were pretty requested back then.