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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.

Results are only viewable after voting.
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Applebutter61

Applebutter61

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JustCallMeJon said:
This video is explain his reason why Smash 4 decline in popularity. There is no other true reason of why competitive Smash 4 decline aside of possibly Ultimate.

Also, we should stop this Melee vs Smash 4 debate please, this is gettinf out of context.
Click to expand...
You obviously didn't watch the video. And if you did, you clearly didn't listen. However, I agree to end this convo, as this thread is for ultimate. Lol :)
 
Amiibo Doctor

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Kuon said:
But is Melee's competitive scene "superior" to Smash 4's competitive scene? Some people may think so, and some people may think otherwise. It's hard to say which one's superior
Click to expand...
People who think otherwise are wrong. Criticism of Melee's competitive scene is incorrect. Honestly, we've had 15 years to sort this out, folks.
 
Kuon

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Dukeofdeath5 said:
This last leg of Smash 4's competitive life has been characterized by two Bayonetta's ****ing around during EVO grand finals while the entire crowd boo'd them. Smash 4's competitive community has A LOT of growing up to do, and it doesn't help that's it rather spoiled due to receiving so many resources and recognition despite it's youth.

Ultimate may be a catalyst for a better competitive Smash with all the new things it's implementing to assist in that, but that won't make the actual scene any better.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. You've made your point
 
Kuon

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Applebutter61 said:
Was anyone else dissapointed that krystal got AT deconfirmed? But at least shadow is coming:yeahboi:
Click to expand...
I was kind of upset. I didn't realize how much I wanted Krystal until I saw her AT. And Shadow is meh to me. I'd much prefer Krystal over Shadow. But we don't know that Shadow is coming yet (unless you were joking about that part)
 
Nekoo

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Smashing Ramen said:
You do know they might just know the song, and just make up the rest, right?
Loz18 says hi
Click to expand...
Better than arguing about Pokémon games Even though BW/2 > All you ****ing contrarian. Or what the characters will wear at Halloweeen :4pacman:
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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I'll say this about "advanced techniques" like wavedashing or L-cancel or whatever. Yes, anyone who puts in the time can learn them, but the main thing you're doing is building barriers. In Melee if you actually can't L-cancel and you play a character who is not Jigglypuff or maybe Luigi I guess (not that Luigi is a viable character at all), you're wasting your time playing games. The practice you get is mostly useless because your moves have incorrect amounts of landing lag, and every little interaction or strategy you learn is mostly going to be wrong learning. The correct thing to do to improve is to stop playing anyone else and just sit in training mode until you have L-cancels down pat. If you don't realize this for one reason or another (maybe you don't know the technique exists, maybe you just haven't had it communicated to you how essential it really is), you can end up wasting a ton of your time and lose to a lot of people whose fundamental Smash skills are way worse than yours just because it's frankly too important to begin to do without. Something like wavedash is less core to every fundamental interaction working correctly so you can kinda play without it, but not knowing it again just impedes your development as a player since basically you're playing without one of the main important movement options so you'll be wrong learning what to do in so many footsies situations unless again you play like Jigglypuff or Peach who just care less about it than everyone else (or for "characters who are too bad to actually use", Zelda doesn't care either).

The long term effect of this is to largely turn competitive play into a more "elite club" style environment by making the more self-taught type of players less effective and enforcing more of a "if you put in the hours, you get some sort of minimum results" environment. Naturally, it shrinks the community as those self taught style players see what they might perceive to be skillful play just not be rewarded and thus are unlikely to see the value in investing in the game; that's your actual consequence. If my experience, this filter isn't really that important at all for truly strong players; those players win on fundamentals, and their mastery of technical play is just one element on a long list of advantages they seek out in all areas of gameplay so its relative importance is almost meaningless to them. It's more important to players who are fundamentally bad players who have done some grinding. There's a certain type of player who is really just a bad Smash player. This type of player is usually just not good at learning less defined concepts like mix-up or spacing or whatever and usually extremely low on adaptability to unusual match situations, but this type of player tends to grind away really hard so technical barriers are extremely welcome as those can often be reduced to a more simple hours in -> results dynamic that really favors this type of player. It's tragic in a way since doing this still results in a pretty low ceiling for these players (they can be filters on the players who don't put in the time, but these players still just always lose to anyone good); you could even argue that the technical barrier giving these players modest success is just giving them false hope as by clinging to it they prevent themselves from seeing any real improvement.

This is years old, but I know when Brawl came out, there were a lot of lower-mid level players in Melee who suddenly found themselves at the very bottom of the new Brawl scene as their tech skill suddenly was useless but they were still being burned by their poor fundamentals, and I'm fairly convinced those players formed the core of the "Brawl sucks" movement (though if they'd stuck around, I'm sure they could have all made excellent Ice Climbers mains). That's just me recounting what I saw here; I know a lot of good players preferred Melee, but those who were really vocal I always noticed didn't tend to actually be any good at Melee either though they seemed to always really tout Melee's technical aspects. I'm not actually trying to come at anyone personally, but I would say that if you feel attacked, maybe some self examination would really benefit you. If you identify with grinding tech skill while lacking fundamentals and feel that you need tech skill filters in order to be able to win, it's not too late for you to rethink your approach to Smash and to start actually developing fundamentals; the first step to overcoming any weakness is acknowledging it! Watch your matches, actually think about why you lost without resorting to reasons like "I didn't use enough advanced techniques" but only using answers that are either legitimately poor strategy ("I needed to be poking way more with dtilt") or poor use of basic game mechanics (like "I frequently throw out fairs that are spaced too deep and thus unsafe on block"), actually make adjustments to your style in future games, and start actually getting better. Being actually good at any Smash game, including Melee, ultimately revolves entirely around fundamentals, and while Melee has a technical filter you're going to have to overcome, it isn't actually a road to make you a good player just an obstacle to overcome before you start on the true path so don't fixate on it! To be honest, you shouldn't fixate on any narrow game dynamic if you want to actually improve, but tech skill is perhaps the single worst thing to fixate on as it has probably the worst capability of any aspect of your game that you could focus on to compensate for lacking ability in other areas.

I think Ultimate made some really good decisions, incidentally. There's a lot of strategic value in a fast pace and having safe aerials, and Ultimate just cut landing lag universally without an input required. Being able to utilize truly high levels of mobility while being free to use all of your attack is really interesting and definitely makes the game more skill intensive, but there's no reason to require a precise button sequence instead of just having the player take off running so being free to use any attack while running is such a better solution than wavedashing. The best way for the game to be is to be very fast paced with an extremely high volume of decisions to be made but actually pretty low technical barriers beyond simply being able to consistently perform fundamental tasks with speed and precision; it creates an environment wherein the skill ceiling is very high but the barrier to entry is very low, and that is what gets you a very healthy competitive community.
 
Applebutter61

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Kuon said:
I was kind of upset. I didn't realize how much I wanted Krystal until I saw her AT. And Shadow is meh to me. I'd much prefer Krystal over Shadow. But we don't know that Shadow is coming yet (unless you were joking about that part)
Click to expand...
Oh, believe me, I'm not joking. Shadow IS coming, mark my words.
 
Idon

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Meritocracy said:
Yeah, it feels like somebody need to do something for sm4sh that never ended up being done, it feels like sm4sh had the potential to rival Melee, but we done goofed and it didn't end up happening
Click to expand...
Nah, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I think the real thing that killed 4's popularity was the relatively slow combat system coupled with the last DLC characters destroying character variety.
Ultimate's announcement didn't help much either.

Fact is, from a competitive standpoint, a stellar cast only means so much when your game isn't 1) fun to play competitively and 2) fun to watch competitively.
In a way, Smash 4 is like reverse MvCI.
 
Pazzo.

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Like Venus I too have a character for your Christmas/Holiday season.

38fe2a93_vbattach95895.jpeg


He's mister De-cember,
He's ready to clash
(Dah nah-nah nah)
He's mister Ice Wizard,
He's coming straight to Smash!
 
Idon

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Amazing Ampharos said:
I'll say this about "advanced techniques" like wavedashing or L-cancel or whatever. Yes, anyone who puts in the time can learn them, but the main thing you're doing is building barriers. In Melee if you actually can't L-cancel and you play a character who is not Jigglypuff or maybe Luigi I guess (not that Luigi is a viable character at all), you're wasting your time playing games. The practice you get is mostly useless because your moves have incorrect amounts of landing lag, and every little interaction or strategy you learn is mostly going to be wrong learning. The correct thing to do to improve is to stop playing anyone else and just sit in training mode until you have L-cancels down pat. If you don't realize this for one reason or another (maybe you don't know the technique exists, maybe you just haven't had it communicated to you how essential it really is), you can end up wasting a ton of your time and lose to a lot of people whose fundamental Smash skills are way worse than yours just because it's frankly too important to begin to do without. Something like wavedash is less core to every fundamental interaction working correctly so you can kinda play without it, but not knowing it again just impedes your development as a player since basically you're playing without one of the main important movement options so you'll be wrong learning what to do in so many footsies situations unless again you play like Jigglypuff or Peach who just care less about it than everyone else (or for "characters who are too bad to actually use", Zelda doesn't care either).

The long term effect of this is to largely turn competitive play into a more "elite club" style environment by making the more self-taught type of players less effective and enforcing more of a "if you put in the hours, you get some sort of minimum results" environment. Naturally, it shrinks the community as those self taught style players see what they might perceive to be skillful play just not be rewarded and thus are unlikely to see the value in investing in the game; that's your actual consequence. If my experience, this filter isn't really that important at all for truly strong players; those players win on fundamentals, and their mastery of technical play is just one element on a long list of advantages they seek out in all areas of gameplay so its relative importance is almost meaningless to them. It's more important to players who are fundamentally bad players who have done some grinding. There's a certain type of player who is really just a bad Smash player. This type of player is usually just not good at learning less defined concepts like mix-up or spacing or whatever and usually extremely low on adaptability to unusual match situations, but this type of player tends to grind away really hard so technical barriers are extremely welcome as those can often be reduced to a more simple hours in -> results dynamic that really favors this type of player. It's tragic in a way since doing this still results in a pretty low ceiling for these players (they can be filters on the players who don't put in the time, but these players still just always lose to anyone good); you could even argue that the technical barrier giving these players modest success is just giving them false hope as by clinging to it they prevent themselves from seeing any real improvement.

This is years old, but I know when Brawl came out, there were a lot of lower-mid level players in Melee who suddenly found themselves at the very bottom of the new Brawl scene as their tech skill suddenly was useless but they were still being burned by their poor fundamentals, and I'm fairly convinced those players formed the core of the "Brawl sucks" movement (though if they'd stuck around, I'm sure they could have all made excellent Ice Climbers mains). That's just me recounting what I saw here; I know a lot of good players preferred Melee, but those who were really vocal I always noticed didn't tend to actually be any good at Melee either though they seemed to always really tout Melee's technical aspects. I'm not actually trying to come at anyone personally, but I would say that if you feel attacked, maybe some self examination would really benefit you. If you identify with grinding tech skill while lacking fundamentals and feel that you need tech skill filters in order to be able to win, it's not too late for you to rethink your approach to Smash and to start actually developing fundamentals; the first step to overcoming any weakness is acknowledging it! Watch your matches, actually think about why you lost without resorting to reasons like "I didn't use enough advanced techniques" but only using answers that are either legitimately poor strategy ("I needed to be poking way more with dtilt") or poor use of basic game mechanics (like "I frequently throw out fairs that are spaced too deep and thus unsafe on block"), actually make adjustments to your style in future games, and start actually getting better. Being actually good at any Smash game, including Melee, ultimately revolves entirely around fundamentals, and while Melee has a technical filter you're going to have to overcome, it isn't actually a road to make you a good player just an obstacle to overcome before you start on the true path so don't fixate on it! To be honest, you shouldn't fixate on any narrow game dynamic if you want to actually improve, but tech skill is perhaps the single worst thing to fixate on as it has probably the worst capability of any aspect of your game that you could focus on to compensate for lacking ability in other areas.

I think Ultimate made some really good decisions, incidentally. There's a lot of strategic value in a fast pace and having safe aerials, and Ultimate just cut landing lag universally without an input required. Being able to utilize truly high levels of mobility while being free to use all of your attack is really interesting and definitely makes the game more skill intensive, but there's no reason to require a precise button sequence instead of just having the player take off running so being free to use any attack while running is such a better solution than wavedashing. The best way for the game to be is to be very fast paced with an extremely high volume of decisions to be made but actually pretty low technical barriers beyond simply being able to consistently perform fundamental tasks with speed and precision; it creates an environment wherein the skill ceiling is very high but the barrier to entry is very low, and that is what gets you a very healthy competitive community.
Click to expand...
Yeah uh...
What this guy said!
 
Kuon

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NineS said:
Just wanted to drop this in:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
(Yes, I know he's not a leaker, and he's just a speculator. But he's been a really on point speculator.)
Click to expand...
I've never heard of either of these people. Is one of them a "leaker"?
 
Last edited:
Meritocracy

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Idon said:
Nah, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I think the real thing that killed 4's popularity was the relatively slow combat system coupled with the last DLC characters destroying character variety.
Ultimate's announcement didn't help much either.

Fact is, from a competitive standpoint, a stellar cast only means so much when your game isn't 1) fun to play competitively and 2) fun to watch competitively.
In a way, Smash 4 is like reverse MvCI.
Click to expand...
Um, you started with nah, and then repeated the same point I made.
Also, don't blame DLC, blame the people too lazy to learn to how to play around DLC
Amazing Ampharos said:
I'll say this about "advanced techniques" like wavedashing or L-cancel or whatever. Yes, anyone who puts in the time can learn them, but the main thing you're doing is building barriers. In Melee if you actually can't L-cancel and you play a character who is not Jigglypuff or maybe Luigi I guess (not that Luigi is a viable character at all), you're wasting your time playing games. The practice you get is mostly useless because your moves have incorrect amounts of landing lag, and every little interaction or strategy you learn is mostly going to be wrong learning. The correct thing to do to improve is to stop playing anyone else and just sit in training mode until you have L-cancels down pat. If you don't realize this for one reason or another (maybe you don't know the technique exists, maybe you just haven't had it communicated to you how essential it really is), you can end up wasting a ton of your time and lose to a lot of people whose fundamental Smash skills are way worse than yours just because it's frankly too important to begin to do without. Something like wavedash is less core to every fundamental interaction working correctly so you can kinda play without it, but not knowing it again just impedes your development as a player since basically you're playing without one of the main important movement options so you'll be wrong learning what to do in so many footsies situations unless again you play like Jigglypuff or Peach who just care less about it than everyone else (or for "characters who are too bad to actually use", Zelda doesn't care either).

The long term effect of this is to largely turn competitive play into a more "elite club" style environment by making the more self-taught type of players less effective and enforcing more of a "if you put in the hours, you get some sort of minimum results" environment. Naturally, it shrinks the community as those self taught style players see what they might perceive to be skillful play just not be rewarded and thus are unlikely to see the value in investing in the game; that's your actual consequence. If my experience, this filter isn't really that important at all for truly strong players; those players win on fundamentals, and their mastery of technical play is just one element on a long list of advantages they seek out in all areas of gameplay so its relative importance is almost meaningless to them. It's more important to players who are fundamentally bad players who have done some grinding. There's a certain type of player who is really just a bad Smash player. This type of player is usually just not good at learning less defined concepts like mix-up or spacing or whatever and usually extremely low on adaptability to unusual match situations, but this type of player tends to grind away really hard so technical barriers are extremely welcome as those can often be reduced to a more simple hours in -> results dynamic that really favors this type of player. It's tragic in a way since doing this still results in a pretty low ceiling for these players (they can be filters on the players who don't put in the time, but these players still just always lose to anyone good); you could even argue that the technical barrier giving these players modest success is just giving them false hope as by clinging to it they prevent themselves from seeing any real improvement.

This is years old, but I know when Brawl came out, there were a lot of lower-mid level players in Melee who suddenly found themselves at the very bottom of the new Brawl scene as their tech skill suddenly was useless but they were still being burned by their poor fundamentals, and I'm fairly convinced those players formed the core of the "Brawl sucks" movement (though if they'd stuck around, I'm sure they could have all made excellent Ice Climbers mains). That's just me recounting what I saw here; I know a lot of good players preferred Melee, but those who were really vocal I always noticed didn't tend to actually be any good at Melee either though they seemed to always really tout Melee's technical aspects. I'm not actually trying to come at anyone personally, but I would say that if you feel attacked, maybe some self examination would really benefit you. If you identify with grinding tech skill while lacking fundamentals and feel that you need tech skill filters in order to be able to win, it's not too late for you to rethink your approach to Smash and to start actually developing fundamentals; the first step to overcoming any weakness is acknowledging it! Watch your matches, actually think about why you lost without resorting to reasons like "I didn't use enough advanced techniques" but only using answers that are either legitimately poor strategy ("I needed to be poking way more with dtilt") or poor use of basic game mechanics (like "I frequently throw out fairs that are spaced too deep and thus unsafe on block"), actually make adjustments to your style in future games, and start actually getting better. Being actually good at any Smash game, including Melee, ultimately revolves entirely around fundamentals, and while Melee has a technical filter you're going to have to overcome, it isn't actually a road to make you a good player just an obstacle to overcome before you start on the true path so don't fixate on it! To be honest, you shouldn't fixate on any narrow game dynamic if you want to actually improve, but tech skill is perhaps the single worst thing to fixate on as it has probably the worst capability of any aspect of your game that you could focus on to compensate for lacking ability in other areas.

I think Ultimate made some really good decisions, incidentally. There's a lot of strategic value in a fast pace and having safe aerials, and Ultimate just cut landing lag universally without an input required. Being able to utilize truly high levels of mobility while being free to use all of your attack is really interesting and definitely makes the game more skill intensive, but there's no reason to require a precise button sequence instead of just having the player take off running so being free to use any attack while running is such a better solution than wavedashing. The best way for the game to be is to be very fast paced with an extremely high volume of decisions to be made but actually pretty low technical barriers beyond simply being able to consistently perform fundamental tasks with speed and precision; it creates an environment wherein the skill ceiling is very high but the barrier to entry is very low, and that is what gets you a very healthy competitive community.
Click to expand...
The problem is that the information to learn is almost nonexistent, instead people like BSD post advanced tech while EXPECTING you to know these fundamentals, with out ever coverin the fundamentals them selves.
 
Imadethistoseealeak

Imadethistoseealeak

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Smashing Ramen said:
You do know they might just know the song, and just make up the rest, right?
Loz18 says hi
Click to expand...
Then we would know tomorrow at 10 am...or whatever time they said. Anyone this is one of those great leaks that has multiple kill times, instead of just who knows but probably fake.

Edit: whelp Lol
 
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