Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Opossum]

Have we ever gotten a confirmation of that?

When has this ever been confirmed that the second Mario icon is for Mario Kart? I have seen no evidence. It'd make perfect sense for spin-offs, considering how astronomically huge of a selection you can get just off the base Mario games like Mario 64, Galaxy, Odyssey, etc.

Ever since Brawl, the Sound Test listed Super Mario and Mario Kart as separate franchises.

 

[Deleted member]

Reminder any new series are still fair game if you believe the music theory and, you know, it could end up WONDERFULLY :^)

Yes, yes we can,
Btw, I just found another Thing Sakurai Has Bias Against...
The Game Boy Advance. All we have is Zero Suit Samus... But Then you realize,
Advance Wars got shafted
Golden Sun got shafted
Lyn got shafted..
Rhythm Heaven Got Shafted... (Original game was a Game Boy Advance game)
What Does Sakurai have against the GBA?

Please tell me you're not serious

 

[kylexv]

I keep hearing about Sakurai bias.
Did I accidentally time travel back to 2014?

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

There are 11 more Tuesdays nights before launch.

With this in mind here are my predictions
9/25
10/2
10/9
10/16 (Following an Elma reveal)
10/23
10/30
11/6
11/13 (Following Final Direct with Pokemon reveal)
11/20 (Maybe relates to an echo?)
11/27
12/4

Has Bayo music been confirmed to be the same amount? If so then it could be replaced with a non represented series like Snipper Clips. I mean that could happen at any point so this isn't a good way to reflect future updates, but it works.

I'm not actively predicting a Xenoblade character, but it's interesting they're still safe.

 

[Noipoi]

Even if there were credence to the theory, that in no way helps Incineroar over another Pokemon.
You seem to be conflating a single 'theory' with the general nature of leaks.
Does this mean you just want to buy into hype and any untestable answer to support Incineroar?

Actually the music theory thing and the Incineroar thing were two unrelated thoughts I put in the same post.
I probably could have formatted it better.

 

[ColtonS25]

Well, it seems we have reached the point when all of the various fantheories are coming together...

So when can we officially say that Sakurai is biased against Zelda?

Although I would still love to see these theories get blasted one after another in a later direct, and then Sakurai ends it with a “lol you thought you could predict me “

Really hoping that all of these leaks are just Sakurai trolling us. Thought Vergeben was a credible leaker? Nope. Turns out that it was just Sakurai putting out characters to mislead us. Box theory? Nah, he just threw that together in photoshop and messed with the pattern to make us speculate.

Sakurai is the Ultimate leaker.

Anyways, for the remaining few stages I expect:
1. Minecraft Stage
2. Xenoblade Chronicles X (Elma pls)
3. Battle Royale stage (from Pokemon)
4. Crafted World stage? I'm not confident on this one.
5. PokeFloats 2 (Could be cool if done right!)

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Please tell me you're not serious

I was kinda joking... But on the other hand... It just seems so fishy...

 

[Jedisupersonic]

• Punch Out!!
  • Highly doubt we'll get a unique Punch Out character

Inb4 we get like Urban Champion as a Mac echo or something utterly bizarre.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Even so, I just can't really see Mario Kart having its own icon this time around, because in a way it'd be pretty disrespectful to the other Mario spin-offs that are just as iconic as Mario Kart, such as Mario Party and so forth. If you were to ask people which Mario spin-off that broke more friendships than ever, most people would say Mario Party.

Is there even any Mario Party content in Smash? I know that was always the idea for a Waluigi/Daisy moveset, but I think the only spin-off we’ve heard really is Kart.

Speaking of, how are Dr. Mario and the Paper stage musics classified? I seem to remember that Doc used to be on some of the GnW stages...

 

[Deleted member]

Has Bayo music been confirmed to be the same amount?

Yep. Check the Smash Direct. When they scroll onto Bayonetta, the number matches the amount in Smash 4.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Even so, I just can't really see Mario Kart having its own icon this time around, because in a way it'd be pretty disrespectful to the other Mario spin-offs that are just as iconic as Mario Kart, such as Mario Party and so forth. If you were to ask people which Mario spin-off that broke more friendships than ever, most people would say Mario Party.

Top 3 selling Mario Kart Games
Mario Kart Wii: 37 Million
Mario Kart DS: 23 Million
Mario Kart 7: 17 Million

Top 3 selling Mario Party Games
Mario Party DS: 9 million
Mario Party 8: 8 Million
Mario Party 9: 3 Million

I have a slight feeling that Mario Kart may be just a littttle bit bigger than Mario Party...

Further proof is that there are multiple Mario Kart Levels.

 

[Untouch]

I keep hearing about Sakurai bias.
Did I accidentally time travel back to 2014?

"sakurai is biased because I think he's putting in a character I don't like instead of a character from a series he made"
interesting

 

[Deleted member]

https://twitter.com/LeakyPandy/status/1042123465321578496
Just this. Sounds like a Dragon Quest character but I really doubt the validity of this leak.

They've been wrong before, but can I just say with that one point about awards.

Sakurai BETTER DAMN get an award at The Game Awards this year. This man pretty much risked his life multiple times for our enjoyment, HOW has he not gotten a Creator Award?

 

[pupNapoleon]

Sure.


But at the same time, Verg's been our most reliable source.


It doesn't mean he's guaranteed, but I'll put more stock in Incineroar over other choices when going into speculation due to this.

I'd have felt it was more believable if he said Incineroar from the beginning. I think he had sources, just like Gematsu. I just think he is starting to get on the train of his own confidence.

regardless... music theory has nothing to do with Verg, and one should not have any impact on the other, even in your mind.

 

[Zinith]

4. Crafted World stage? I'm not confident on this one.

There's a lot more credence to this one due to the discovery of the Crafted Yoshi alt render

 

[Thinkaman]

Even so, I just can't really see Mario Kart having its own icon this time around, because in a way it'd be pretty disrespectful to the other Mario spin-offs that are just as iconic as Mario Kart, such as Mario Party and so forth. If you were to ask people which Mario spin-off that broke more friendships than ever, most people would say Mario Party.

This is precisely how previous Smash games have organized their music. (Separate category for Mario Kart, which has its own stages and lots of songs.)

 

[Chrono.]

Yes, yes we can,
Btw, I just found another Thing Sakurai Has Bias Against...
The Game Boy Advance. All we have is Zero Suit Samus... But Then you realize,
Advance Wars got shafted
Golden Sun got shafted
Lyn got shafted..
Rhythm Heaven Got Shafted... (Original game was a Game Boy Advance game)
What Does Sakurai have against the GBA?

You do know Roy is from a GBA game right?

Not to mention WarioWare.

 

[Wyoming]

Likelihood of unique newcomer based on music theory imo:

1. Pokemon
2. Xenoblade
3. Sonic
4. Kid Icarus
5. Mother
6. Star Fox
7. Punch Out
8. Game & Watch/Wii Fit - not happening as there's no one to choose from.

We have 11 weeks left with 9 veteran series with their own emblem in the music list without a track. If they all get one, that leaves 2 weeks for unrepresented series/new series...also could get a new Mii-related track as well. Plus possibly a Mario Kart track that takes a week,

Getting kind of tight with potentially 0-2 open weeks left for music in the current way it is being handled.

So with potentially zero spots open for a new series, this lines up with box theory: Ken and Incineroar being the last newcomers. Pokemon would follow the fire cat and another series would get attention following Ken. If they are revealed in the same Direct however that would leave an open week potentially. And if we have one left that lines up with Vergeben about the Square Enix character - but then that debunks box theory. So it might be a surprise track from elsewhere in that scenario.

Are the stars aligning? Eh, probably not. Sakurai would simply need to add an unrelated series into the mix and it falls apart.

 

[Deleted member]

Elma would actually be pretty cool. The moveset potential for her is crazy, and Xenoblade has been getting a lot of love lately. I wouldn't count her out.

 

[Deleted member]

"Sakurai has Kirby bias"
"Sakurai has Star Fox bias"
"Sakurai has KI bias"
"Sakurai has FE bias"

vs.

"Sakurai hates Metroid"
"Sakurai hates DK"
"Sakurai hates Star Fox"
"Sakurai hates western games"

 

[WertQuadNine]

It's 85-90% true.

That's generous, I'd say 50/50 still. While nothing has disproven it, we still haven't really had anything possible to prove it besides just things not happening

 

[Icedragonadam]

And Lucas debuted on the GBA.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

With this in mind here are my predictions
9/25
10/2
10/9
10/16 (Following an Elma reveal)
10/23
10/30
11/6
11/13 (Following Final Direct with Pokemon reveal)
11/20 (Maybe relates to an echo?)
11/27
12/4

Has Bayo music been confirmed to be the same amount? If so then it could be replaced with a non represented series like Snipper Clips. I mean that could happen at any point so this isn't a good way to reflect future updates, but it works.

I'm not actively predicting a Xenoblade character, but it's interesting they're still safe.

Bayo is probably not going to have another song and neither is mii... So we'll either have 2 standard Songs or....
We may have a new Franchise Represented Bois...

 

[Misery Brick]

Yes, yes we can,
Btw, I just found another Thing Sakurai Has Bias Against...
The Game Boy Advance. All we have is Zero Suit Samus... But Then you realize,
Advance Wars got shafted
Golden Sun got shafted
Lyn got shafted..
Rhythm Heaven Got Shafted... (Original game was a Game Boy Advance game)
What Does Sakurai have against the GBA?

Well if you want to get pedantic, Red's design and Green, especially her, are both from FRLG, so they represent that era of Pokémon technically.
Lucas is from Mother 3 which is a GBA game which counts.
Also Wario represented WarioWare which I believe originates on the Game Boy Advance.

I wouldn't necessarily say he's biased against the system, just not a lot of characters are from that era.
EDIT: Forgot Roy is also from the GBA Fire Emblem games. Probably because I've never picked it up.

 

[Deleted member]

Is there even any Mario Party content in Smash? I know that was always the idea for a Waluigi/Daisy moveset, but I think the only spin-off we’ve heard really is Kart.

Speaking of, how are Dr. Mario and the Paper stage musics classified? I seem to remember that Doc used to be on some of the GnW stages...

The only notable Mario Party content thus far is a direct port of a Minigame Theme from Mario Party 9 being used on Mario Circuit U. Dr. Mario and Paper Mario Medley are classified as Mario songs in Smash 4, but are used on Flat Zone X (PictoChat 2 on the 3DS) and Woolly World (Paper Mario on the 3DS) respectively.

 

[Potato_]

Honestly I'm really hoping the Dante leak is real now.

If Skull Kid is not in, not even as a boss, even after his mysterious absence as an AT then that just gives me more hope they've pushed him to DLC.

This is assuming music theory is legitimate.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

You do know Roy is from a GBA game right?

Not to mention WarioWare.

Said GBA game also has a special thanks to Sakurai in it!

For the extra BAM.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

https://twitter.com/LeakyPandy/status/1042123465321578496
Just this. Sounds like a Dragon Quest character but I really doubt the validity of this leak.

I'm starting to think that it's true

 

[Will]

Even so, you hold him off, last I heard.

If he really could destroy a universe, even holding that abomination back and being able to tank its attacks still seems like a pretty feat to me.

You don't have to kill someone to be comparable to them or have a chance against them, especially when said being requires a specific power not in your control to beat.

Inb4 "muh powerscaling"

Anyone could "damage" Giygas in both games, but it was futile as they can never beat him with raw strength. Defending against his attacks I don't believe is the same thing as consuming the universe as a void. Giygas is just as large as the universe and is consuming it, which is what gives him that universal scale. He can't really control that either, he just expands because his power is effectively limitless in growth. His attacks are just copycats of Ness and his party, since we know he can use PK Rockin.

 

[Jigglymaster]

regardless... music theory has nothing to do with Verg, and one should not have any impact on the other, even in your mind.

As of right now, Music theory supports verg because Pokemon doesn't have a song on the website yet. If it does get one, then yes, it will contradict verg.

 

[Shroob]

I'd have felt it was more believable if he said Incineroar from the beginning. I think he had sources, just like Gematsu. I just think he is starting to get on the train of his own confidence.

regardless... music theory has nothing to do with Verg, and one should not have any impact on the other, even in your mind.

No, that's not how that works.


Verg said only ONE of his sources said it was Incineroar, and that wasn't even meant to go public.


He waited until he could get feedback from all of his sources before he came out and said it himself.



And yeah, it ties into the music theory, because all the music theory implies is "We're not going to get a song until the newcomer is revealed. If they don't have a newcomer, the song can come whenever."

 

[ZephyrZ]

Look, I love Sakurai and I love his games as well, but Sakurai bias is totally real. Just look at all the Uprisimg enemies in Smash Run.

"But that's just because Uprising had a lot of unique enemies to draw from!"

That is true, but so do a lot of other games. And some of Uprising guys are pretty generic. I'm looking at you, Underworld Skuttlers.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You do know Roy is from a GBA game right?

Not to mention WarioWare.

For whatever reason, a character seems to be 'born' in the franchise's conception. My opinion aside, a GBA rep would seemingly be a character from a series conceived during the GBA era.

 

[Dee Dude]

Yo yo yo new AC remix upload!

And it’s rocking!

 

[Deleted member]

Is there even any Mario Party content in Smash? I know that was always the idea for a Waluigi/Daisy moveset, but I think the only spin-off we’ve heard really is Kart.

Speaking of, how are Dr. Mario and the Paper stage musics classified? I seem to remember that Doc used to be on some of the GnW stages...

If we're talking about past Smash games, just in the Mario IP. And you're not wrong, I too remember Chill being in Flat Zone 2 in Brawl. It's a very weird case for some songs, and that's why I have a feeling Ultimate is gonna get organization of music right this time.

This is precisely how previous Smash games have organized their music. (Separate category for Mario Kart, which has its own stages and lots of songs.)

And now we have Ultimate, which has a much more centralized way of doing so. But then that makes things even more weird, considering in this scenario, it might be a kin to previous Smash games all over again and we can only hear Mario Kart songs on Mario Kart stages and other Mario music with everything else. And if that's the case, that's kind of ridiculous. Mario is practically one series as a whole, we should listen to other Mario songs like Mario 64's main theme on the Mario Kart tracks.

 

[AreJay25]

Look, I love Sakurai and I love his games as well, but Sakurai bias is totally real. Just look at all the Uprisimg enemies in Smash Run.

"But that's just because Uprising had a lot of unique enemies to draw from!"

That is true, but so do a lot of other games. And some of Uprising guys are pretty generic. I'm looking at you, Underworld Skuttlers.

I mean, the Uprising enemies were easy port jobs so I could understand it from that angle.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Good AC track! I have a feeling we're going to still see... too much of Smashville and Town and City going forward so at least we have another good AC track (I didn't like most of the tracks on those stages in 4).

So what series do we have left for new tracks? We saw in the music direct that FF and G&W still just have the two songs each from 4, and we saw that Ice Climber, Duck Hunt, and R.O.B. aren't considered a "series". We can probably safely say the new Pokemon track is being held for Incineroar. That leaves by my count:

Star Fox, Mother, Wario, Kid Icarus, Sonic, Wii Fit, PAC-MAN, Bayonetta

I think that's it? We did see two Mario icons in the direct so maybe we'll get a Mario Kart track or something pre-release or something. Mother, Kid Icarus, Wii Fit, and PAC-MAN all have probably zero competitive stages, but we know Lylat Cruise, WarioWare, and Umbra Clock Tower are all pretty playable and I have some hope for Windy Hill Zone so maybe those tracks will be on stages I play.

The music updates are always the best updates of the week.

 

[Idon]

You do know Roy is from a GBA game right?

Not to mention WarioWare.

Well, to be fair, Roy's technically from Melee.

 

[Q-Long]

Yes, yes we can,
Btw, I just found another Thing Sakurai Has Bias Against...
The Game Boy Advance. All we have is Zero Suit Samus... But Then you realize,
Advance Wars got shafted
Golden Sun got shafted
Lyn got shafted..
Rhythm Heaven Got Shafted... (Original game was a Game Boy Advance game)
What Does Sakurai have against the GBA?

You can add no Gen 3 rep to that list.

A lot of iconic Nintendo characters made their debut during the GBA/GCN era. Isaac, Andy, Ray, Jill, Marshal, etc.

I think a lot of it was unfortunate timing and related to a lot of mishandling by Nintendo's developers. By the time Brawl came out, the DS was 4 years old and the Wii was 2 years old. Hence no Gen 3, but a Gen 4 rep instead.

Advance Wars was extremely mishandled in Japan. AW was released on September 10th, 2001, but its Japanese release was delayed because of 9/11. When was it released eventually? 2004. I understand delaying a game because of a big event, but 3 years?Following that, Advance Wars was plagued with late releases in their own home country. I still have no idea why. I'm surprised it even got an assist trophy in Brawl.

Golden Sun Dark Dawn eventually received a game during the end of DS's life cycle, when the 3DS was about to be the bic boy on handheld market. Golden Sun could have received a sequel earlier, but nope, Camelot was too busy making Mario sports games and eventually a lot of the GS1+2 staff left.

The latest FE game was from Tellius and not any of the GBA continents. So we got my boy Ike instead.

Rhythm Heaven I think had a character played for Smash 4. I wonder if that will still happen.

Also when picking characters for Brawl, it must have been tough. These GCN/GBA gens had competition from the likes of Meta Knight, King Dedede, Wario, Sonic, and more. They stood no chance.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Yo yo yo new AC remix upload!

And it’s rocking!

Finally actual fight music.