Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[SquashiniKun]

How would you feel if Smash Directs were a monthly thing?

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Fool, Dark Samus is the first transgender fighter on the roster after all these years.


He didn't outright say it... but he did say there was a mode which will be your main way of unlocking fighters... I assume that this is it.

instresting

 

[T-Hell]

On the website we can see Classic Mode and Training, but no sign of Stadium modes (Homerun is my favorite mode)

I'm scared and I hope they will just announce them later

Games & More is still there and they are traditional modes now, so I doubt they are going nowhere.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I mean, Dark Samus isn't actually Samus but we still call her that name.
I don't see anything wrong with treating her as if she's female even if she's a being born of phazon who likely has no care or preference for human pronouns or gender constructs.

 

[CroonerMike]

So....anybody else want Skull Kid?

 

[KMDP]

Shadow and Ken most definitely do. Also, I think the "rival" bit might be a translation thing. I'd have to watch the *** trailer to read what it says there. It might be more of a general "antagonist" thing, you catch my drift? Like 向こう。Which basically means "opposition" "opposite party" etc.... Anyone got a link?

Also, the Links already have Ganondorf to fit that bill.

King K. Rool's trailer in Japanese is also called "The Rivals"

Specifically, it's "ライバルたち" (Raibarutachi)

 

[Noipoi]

Trans Icon Dark Samus

How is she trans? Like what is she transitioning to or from? From Phazons to a Samus copy?

 

[Smearglangelo]

I think we're overthinking Dark Samus' gender a little, don't you think? I agree with @ManlySpirit that Dark Samus is technically not a female, but she's also an evil version of a female character making the female pronoun acceptable. I also refer to Metal Sonic as a boy despite being a robot because he's the evil version of Sonic.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Dark Samus isn't female though, lol. It's literally a bunch of Phazon that took sentience and took over Samus' Phazon Suit.

For it to be female, you'd have to imply that it reproduces sexually, it clearly doesn't.

In the logbooks and the smash trophies they're referred to with female pronouns though, they're viewed as female in canon

 

[staindgrey]

Only F-Zero and Mother are missing villains now....

I like Wolf and all, but he seems a little out of place here. If anything, Fox's equivalent is Andross. Wolf is more his Vegeta than his Frieza.

Also, as a general comment to people debating Dark Samus's gender, she's originally the Metroid Prime, which was the Metroid queen. Assuming Metroid gender isn't abnormal, yeah, she's a lady.

 

[Mc.Rad]

instresting

I'm not sure how it would work, But I'm assuming it's a story mode where all but the Veteran and newcomer fighters get their souls taken. Meaning you'll have to get them back.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

I'll be honest. I take back the bad things about Bandana Dee and Geno. This game is jam-packed with so much content, and one of my most-wanted characters was already confirmed, so I can't ever be disappointed anymore. I don't dislike these characters or their fans, and I believe they could both be given unique movesets. If Geno does end up being playable, then I hope he at least is included in future Mario games, or else his return would feel sort of pointless.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I like Wolf and all, but he seems a little out of place here. If anything, Fox's equivalent is Andross. Wolf is more his Vegeta than his Frieza.

No more out of place than Metaknight.

I don't think it's a hero vs villain thing so much as a protagonist vs antagonist.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Caught some news about Simon and the clones at the start of work, but didn't know the rest until later.

Ditto finally got in as a Pokeball Pokemon after all these years.

Fountain of Dreams was used as the example of the graphic update in stages; assuming it was not only because of Sakurai bias but because THE FANS liked the stage.

Alolan Exeggutor owns up to its role as a laughing stock by being a nuisance blockade just by standing around.

There was that instant stage switch mode, which I don't think ANYBODY expected.

K.Rool hasn't been in a game for over a decade and being a much older villain, he arguably has lost a lot of relevance except for us older DK fans.
He got in Smash anyway.

It was absolutely beautiful.

Honestly, I think Shadow really has a 90% chance of being a clone at this point due to all the catering to what many smash fans want.

I might not even put it past the team to add in Rayman or Sora, even though we pretty much have all the "necessary" Nintendo-related third-parties now.

----

 

[Arcanir]

Steven Universe isn't very good. Idk why that's being cited as a credible source of nomenclature for fictional characters. Dark Samus was never specified as female, and Metroid is hard Sci-fi. You see it reproducing asexually multiple times thought the Prime series, meaning, it CAN'T be female.

She's referred to using female pronouns multiple times in Metroid Prime scans, interviews, and materials. Even if she doesn't reproduce sexually, she's officially recognized and stated to be female.

 

[staindgrey]

Shadow and Ken most definitely do. Also, I think the "rival" bit might be a translation thing. I'd have to watch the *** trailer to read what it says there. It might be more of a general "antagonist" thing, you catch my drift? Like 向こう。Which basically means "opposition" "opposite party" etc.... Anyone got a link?

Also, the Links already have Ganondorf to fit that bill.

I'd argue Akuma is more Ryu's Shadow. Ken is his Tails. Or, wait... Maybe Knuckles. And Sakura is his Tails.

 

[KMDP]

Steven Universe isn't very good.

Steven Universe is a piece of fiction of subjective quality.

Because inconsistent fiction isn't the end all be all in determining how to place fictional characters?

...
That's still not relevant to my point. I was pointing out a well known piece of fiction that has sexless entities given genders. If the Retro team or the Smash Bros. devs refer to Dark Samus as female, that's that.

Also Steven Universe is, story-wise, not inconsistent at all (now, ART, on the other hand).

 

[SleepBubble]

I just wanted to mourn our losses...

 

[Mc.Rad]

I just wanted to mourn our losses...

Waluigi: "Join your father Ashley..."

 

[Noipoi]

Steven Universe isn't very good.

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

How would you feel if Smash Directs were a monthly thing?

I would be happy.

I'd argue Akuma is more Ryu's Shadow. Ken is his Tails. Or, wait... Maybe Knuckles. And Sakura is his Tails.

Does that make Rufus his Big?

 

[Deleted member]

In the logbooks and the smash trophies they're referred to with female pronouns though, they're viewed as female in canon

No, it's no "viewed" as female, lol. It's LITERALLY genderless. People refer to it as "she" because it's an evil version of Samus who IS female, and humans have a tendency to personify things and associate them with human traits. Dark Samus literally isn't human and reproduces asexually. It's not female. YOU can call it "she" if you'd like, but it's canonically NOT female.

King K. Rool's trailer in Japanese is also called "The Rivals"

Specifically, it's "ライバルたち" (Raibarutachi)

Interesting. Well, that's that I guess. I'd have to ask my friend Momo what she thinks, but she hasn't seen the trailer yet so...

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Shadow and Ken most definitely do. Also, I think the "rival" bit might be a translation thing. I'd have to watch the *** trailer to read what it says there. It might be more of a general "antagonist" thing, you catch my drift? Like 向こう。Which basically means "opposition" "opposite party" etc.... Anyone got a link?

Also, the Links already have Ganondorf to fit that bill.

considering young link is in the game and how skull kid behaved in majoras mask

Skull Kid honestly is young links antagonist

 

[Will]

If they end up giving Dark Samus she/her pronouns then it means that DS is. The same thing happened with Mettaton in Undertale, so that's how I treat these things. Don't blame me, blame Toby Fox.

That doesn't make DS trans necessarily. I don't like getting into these types of arguments, but I'm mega dumb so I'll dip in.
Metroid Prime ripped in Samus' DNA and became Dark Samus. We don't know if the Metroids have sexes/genders/whatever, but whatever came out of it she copied.

 

[Noipoi]

How would you feel if Smash Directs were a monthly thing?

If we got 5 characters and crazy new information everytime? The more the merrier!

 

[staindgrey]

No more out of place than Metaknight.

I don't think it's a hero vs villain thing so much as a protagonist vs antagonist.

Fair point. I don't play Kirby games. I've always assumed Dedede was the main baddy and Metaknight was the Vegeta-like rival, but I've honestly never had interest in the series.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd argue Akuma is more Ryu's Shadow. Ken is his Tails. Or, wait... Maybe Knuckles. And Sakura is his Tails.

Nah, Ken is the OG clone, and the two go way back.

 

[RouffWestie]

Chrom is a Roy echo, but his up Special is actually Aether instead of fire-Dolphin Slash, which means echoes can have unique moves from the fighter they're based on. I'm actually super happy that's confirmed, because that opens up the possibility of Dixie Kong and Shadow having different moves if they get in as echoes.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, if we're discussing 'villains'

While Pokemon aren't necessarily evil by nature, Incineroar is a pretty good candidate for what one would consider a villain.


He's both a Dark type(Evil in Japan), and he's based off of a heel wrestler, someone who does **** like throw dirt in the eyes of his opponent to stagger them.

He also served as the antagonist's main Pokémon in the 20th movie.

 

[DittoMaster6]

Trans Icon Dark Samus

Is the original Metroid Prime even biologically male in the first place? Doesn't it give birth to Metroids in Prime 1? I haven't personally played Prime 1 myself, but I've heard that's one of its attacks.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

No, it's no "viewed" as female, lol. It's LITERALLY genderless. People refer to it as "she" because it's an evil version of Samus who IS female, and humans have a tendency to personify things and associate them with human traits. Dark Samus literally isn't human and reproduces asexually. It's not female. YOU can call it "she" if you'd like, but it's canonically NOT female.


Interesting. Well, that's that I guess. I'd have to ask my friend Momo what she thinks, but she hasn't seen the trailer yet so...

Isn't it also made up of parts of samus' dna that was left on the suit though? in that case it could still physically be and identify as female

And the game developers refer to her as female, so that's what I'm gonna do

 

[Murlough]

On the day that Ashley fans and Mimikyu fans are mourning there losses......everyone else is arguing complete semantics.

Call Dark Samus whatever you want, she doesn't have feelings, and move on lmao. Who cares?

 

[Will]

Is the original Metroid Prime even biologically male in the first place? Doesn't it give birth to Metroids in Prime 1? I haven't personally played Prime 1 myself, but I've heard that's one of its attacks.

IIRC Prime didn't really have a motive, it was just giving Tallon IV a hell of a time or something I vaguely remember.

 

[Mc.Rad]

That doesn't make DS trans necessarily. I don't like getting into these types of arguments, but I'm mega dumb so I'll dip in.
Metroid Prime ripped in Samus' DNA and became Dark Samus. We don't know if the Metroids have sexes/genders/whatever, but whatever came out of it she copied.

To be honest I said it in the same vein as "Slyveon is trans", but I know that canonically Dark Samus doesn't really have any preference (She is kind of a big energy amoeba if I'm gonna be honest). I'm sure Metroids may reproduce asexually, but who knows.

 

[Bowserlick]

Everytime you beat the Adventure/Spirit Mode you get to choose one Assist Trophy character (possibly reduced to only the ones you can fight back and KO). This is tallied up for DLC.

The winner's spirit is restored and they are broken from their assist trophy imprisonment.

 

[staindgrey]

Nah, Ken is the OG clone, and the two go way back.

Right, but they were talking in the context of rivals. Shadow is a modern clone of Sonic, but Tails was the OG clone. He did the same thing but looked different and could fly. Tails and Knuckles are friendly companions, as Ken is with Ryu, while Shadow/Akuma are actual antagonists who also happen to basically be evil versions of the game's star.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Everytime you beat the Adventure/Spirit Mode you get to choose one Assist Trophy character (possibly reduced to only the ones you can fight back and KO). This is tallied up for DLC.

The winner's spirit is restored and they are broken from their assist trophy imprisonment.

So... you're just saying that Waluigi is going to be the DLC

 

[ChronoBound]

No, it's no "viewed" as female, lol. It's LITERALLY genderless. People refer to it as "she" because it's an evil version of Samus who IS female, and humans have a tendency to personify things and associate them with human traits. Dark Samus literally isn't human and reproduces asexually. It's not female. YOU can call it "she" if you'd like, but it's canonically NOT female.

Dark Samus has the pronouns of she/her in Prime 2/Prime 3, so that it what I am going to use. Who the hell knows what Dark Samus's anatomy under the suit is like. According to scan's Dark Samus is a mix of Samus's genetic material (this is explicitly stated), her power suit, and phazon. Its implied in Prime 3, Samus will mutate into another copy of Dark Samus should phazon corruption overwhelm her. Regardless, if the developers refer to Dark Samus as she/her, then that is what I am going to use for Dark Samus.

On the topic of Dark Samus I wrote this in the Dark Samus Social Topic explaining just how lucky she is:

Sakurai mentioned that both Chrom and Dark Samus were really popular choices, so your vote on the ballot certainly helped Dark Samus get in. I am glad she made it in. She was a critical actor for the Metroid series, particularly the Prime series. I find it fitting both Chrom and Dark Samus were confirmed together because both were characters whose time in the sun was over in the prospective series (Fates, Shadows of Valentia, and Three Houses all came after Awakening) and DS has been gone since 2007.

It goes into more than just that. If Metroid Prime 3 had not been released after Brawl was in Japan, Sakurai might never have looked at the game to throw it a bone in terms of content. Dark Samus making it in as an Assist Trophy was absolutely critical to Dark Samus getting upgraded. Again, if it were not for Prime 3 releasing after Brawl, and Sakurai wanting to throw that game (he gave most of the new Metroid content in Smash 4 from Other M) a bone, Dark Samus could very well not have made it since he likely would probably have not have been personally aware of her (and thus realize how feasible of an echo fighter she would be).

Also, the fact that echo fighters even exist is another star that had to align for DS. The reason the echoes even came about was due to Sakurai bringing back Dr. Mario as a costume and then having second faults about how his particular fans would feel about him losing what made him unique from Mario. Sakurai making Dr. Mario his own character again was the impetus Sakurai needed to decided "why not upgrade Lucina and Dark Pit."

The ballot happening was another thing that needed to happen. People had to ask for Dark Samus to show she had enough popularity to even be upgraded. Ridley being a boss, likely siphoned some votes from Ridley to Dark Samus seeing as most people thought the ballot was for Smash 4 DLC.

Another star that had to align was the fact that Ultimate is true newcomer poor. There are likely only a few non-echo newcomers left. Sakurai added the clones in Melee due to feeling he did not add in enough newcomers (only eight at the time). The echoes fulfill the same purpose. They boost the number of new fighters to the game.

Dark Samus right now is the only character aside from Little Mac to have been promoted from an Assist Trophy. LITTLE MAC. Look at how big the Ashley thread was. Look at how loud Waluigi fans are. Dark Samus managed to do something only one other fighter was ever able to do (maybe you can say Charizard managed to do it too since he was a Pokeball Pokemon in 64 and Melee). Little Mac (and Charizard) are iconic legends. Dark Samus defied all of these odds and made it in. Even echo status is impressive for Dark Samus.

 

[Murlough]

Everytime you beat the Adventure/Spirit Mode you get to choose one Assist Trophy character (possibly reduced to only the ones you can fight back and KO). This is tallied up for DLC.

The winner's spirit is restored and they are broken from their assist trophy imprisonment.

Better include Pokeballs. You can't do that to me Sakurai!

 

[Noipoi]

He also served as the antagonist's main Pokémon in the 20th movie.

My girl is dead, so i'm down with the 'Roar now. He was my starter in Moon/Ultra Moon anyway.