Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zinith]

As someone whose favorite character has a franchise that's in a rut, I get real tired of "deserving" arguments...

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

People will never shut up about the "Zelda representation" thing. I'm being brutally honest here. You can include literally everything and people would still not be satisfied.

Nah personally I'll be plenty happy if we get at least one of Zelda's vast array of unique characters as playable, regardless of who it is.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's not even close to being true.

Majora's Mask, Minish Cap, Phanton Hourglass, Spirit Tracks... etc.

About half of the Zelda games have no mention of Ganondorf OR Ganon.

Actually the main villain of Spirit Tracks is a giant evil pig so I'd argue it's still a Ganon incarnation. Though there's ALSO how one could argue Demise's curse being "Evil will haunt you" isn't limited to Ganondorf but literally every Zelda villain

 

[Opossum]

Daruk is still my favorite choice for a new Zelda character.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Yeah, I don't get the disliking for three Links either when all three cleverly rep the three timelines of the series. Or rather, they used to since we don't know where BotW places on the timeline

Well actually, no. You can argue BotW is the rep for the Adult Link we play as in the games, meaning they rep each incarnation of Link as a whole throughout the series.

People dislike the three Links thing because they either want there to be different characters that aren't different appearances of the same character, or at least have unique differences that are surface level at best.

I'm looking at you, Facebook comments

 

[Will]

As someone whose favorite character has a franchise that's in a rut, I get real tired of "deserving" arguments...

People who feel Sakurai owes them a character because of some arbitrary reason should like, cease.

 

[Wyoming]

Kids kids, you both won't get a new rep.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

so, because random subject changing is fun, anyone have random pipe dream characters that make literally no sense and have about zero chance of making it in but want them anyway?
Cuphead, and Monika. Fight me memers, zero irony/sarcasm was in that statement
Monika is always bet girl, but in all honesty, you really can't make a moveset for anyone else, but the intellectual complexity that went into that game is mind blowing

Earthworm Jim, mainly because it would be nice to have him show up in a new game that's not just EWJ1 being remastered/ported ad nauseam.

Also, Karnov and Joe the Caveman Ninja, for Data East representation.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

5/18 games had K. Rool be the villain.

That number is both inflated and inaccurate.

K.Rool has been the main villain for DKC, DKC2, DKC3, DK64, Jungle Climber and King of Swing. At minimum there are six.

There were only three DKC titles that don't have K.Rool as a villain. Jungle Beat, Returns and Tropical Freeze.

You're counting the arcade and Mario vs Donkey Kong games. Even then, unless Donkey Kong is counted as a villain now, I think we shouldn't count those.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

'obscure' is said due to lack of recent appearances. Same goes for 'irrelevant'. Yuga from Link Between Worlds appeared in 2014, so he's more relevant due to his more recent appearance in a main game for example. Nobody but you is making this a DK VS Zelda thing

Obscure means unimportant.

These one-offs are unimportant to the series as a whole, aa they're not part of the legacy and the Legend of the Trio which all of the games are about. Really, only Midna is the exception here as the title of the game foreshadows her role

I only argued it because these same people made arguments against another character when both share the same downsides; I'm pointing out the fallacy.

I don't believe I was the one who brought up the franchises and conpared their stories as if that justifies one having a certain character nor did I claim one was more deserving.

People have no sense of "You get what you put forth" anymore.

 

[Enchess]

To be fair, he did miss DK's big comeback though, and that game's sequel.

And Ganondorf is in every Zelda game, he just goes under the name ganon, that's still the same character.

That's objectively false though. There are plenty of Zelda games with neither Ganondorf or Ganon.

 

[Opossum]

Donkey Kong has been the main villain for DKC, DKC2, DKC3, DK64, Jungle Climber and King of Swing.

This whole time he was the villain. You think you know a guy...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This whole time he was the villain. You think you know a guy...

I need to stop hanging out with Zeb.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Obscure means unimportant.

These one-offs are unimportant to the series as a whole, aa they're not part of the legacy and the Legend of the Trio which all of the gamea are about.

I only argued it because these same people made arguments against another character when both share the same downsides; I'm pointing out the fallacy.

I don't believe I was the one who brought up the franchises and conpared their stories as if that justifies one having a certain character nor did I claim one was more deserving.

People have no sense of "You get what you put forth" anymore.

lolno obscure means 'not well-known'

Maybe it's that it's been 1AM but I sure as **** didn't see anyone here say "We need this Zelda character over K.Rool". You're the person to start **** like that

This whole time he was the villain. You think you know a guy...

I mean, K.Rool's clearly a Kommunist, he's seizing all of the jungle's food to share to all the animals as DK hogged them all for himself

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

That's objectively false though. There are plenty of Zelda games with neither Ganondorf or Ganon.

Yeah I forgot about those but the majority of them still do and he hasn't had had 20+ years of missing appearances in his own franchise like krool

 

[Will]

You're counting the arcade and Mario vs Donkey Kong games. Even then, unless Donkey Kong is counted as a villain now, I think we shouldn't count those.

I counted the arcade, but not MvDK. The Arcade games are still DK games. Don't believe me? Check to see whose Emblem is on the 75m stage.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

As someone whose favorite character has a franchise that's in a rut, I get real tired of "deserving" arguments...

At least Yoshi gets more games, and appear in a lot of spin-offs.
What does F-Zero got? *cries in a corner*

 

[BlondeLombax]

I just saw this on Twitter, you guys might be interested to see it.
I have no idea how to make full tweets show up.
I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm fixing myself up for the remainder of the summer.

 

[Jexulus]

I
Yoshi is Yoshi, and his games typically star he, himself, and no one else. He's received the standard visual and mechanical tweaks, so there isn't any real evidence to suggest we'll see another Yoshi-branded character pop up. If they do, it's possible they'll appear as a Mario representative instead. That might be the attitude towards the franchise, given the lack of a recent hit.

Goddammit, why do people think this?

I don't necessarily disagree with all of this, but what makes you think a "Yoshi-branded character" will appear as a Mario rep? If Poochy somehow got in (which I'm not advocating for btw), would he appear as a Mario rep?

I'm sorry, I meant that this could possibly be the internal attitude towards Yoshi as a representative franchise. I didn't mean put words into the mouth of the community as a sort of "general consensus."
Unlike with Donkey Kong, almost every character who appears in Yoshi also appears in Mario games, and many can be reasonably conflated as more associated with Mario than the Yoshi games. For example, the babies. For every Yoshi game they appear in, they appear in just as many Mario games (Double Dash and other Kart games, Partners in Time, etc.) Their trophies are Yoshi branded, but so is Kamek, a character who has since appeared as a stage element in a Mario stage, so "re-association" within the series can happen. Meanwhile, while a franchise like Donkey Kong also has overlap with Mario, it's been shone to be to much less of a degree. K. Rool and Dixie are distinctly Donkey Kong character and can't reasonably be conflated internally as Mario characters.

This is by no means my stance on Yoshi representation, but merely my musings.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just saw this on Twitter, you guys might be interested to see it.
I have no idea how to make full tweets show up.
I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm fixing myself up for the remainder of the summer.

Probably single player and other changes and items. Also hit the button next to the emoji and it'll show a list, tap 'Media' and post the link to the tweet

 

[Chandeelure]

I just saw this on Twitter, you guys might be interested to see it.
I have no idea how to make full tweets show up.
I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm fixing myself up for the remainder of the summer.

You have to copy the link in the media thing.
Like a Youtube video.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

People dislike the three Links thing because they either want there to be different characters that aren't different appearances of the same character, or at least have unique differences that are surface level at best.

I'm looking at you, Facebook comments

View attachment 149837

In my opinion, I don't mind having three Links, since they essentially form a Triforce.

As someone whose favorite character has a franchise that's in a rut, I get real tired of "deserving" arguments...

Yeah, at the end of the day I just hope for somebody I like a lot/have some esteem for to get in.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

lolno obscure means 'not well-known'

Maybe it's that it's been 1AM but I sure as **** didn't see anyone here say "We need this Zelda character over K.Rool". You're the person to start **** like that

I mean, K.Rool's clearly a Kommunist, he's seizing all of the jungle's food to share to all the animals as DK hogged them all for himself

Look up the definition before making up your own. Might actually do you some good.

Also, I'd say being acknowledged as a costume due to popularity and given a trophy that states he's the main villain and DK's answer to Mario's Bowser would be enough to shut this kind of argument up. We can't claim he isn't well-known either, if we want to be real, as any poll cam be claimed to be inflated or biased.

Also, I didn't say we needed them over a Zelda character. I always acknowledged the fact that both were in a nearly equal state and pointed out the hypocritical nature of one side to simply dismiss the other despite this.

Don't put words in my mouth.

EDIT: OOOOF. I had "Obscurity" highlighted instead of "obscure". My bad.

Believe the point still stands, however.

 

[Zinith]

I'm sorry, I meant that this could possibly be the internal attitude towards Yoshi as a representative franchise. I didn't mean put words into the mouth of the community as a sort of "general consensus."
Unlike with Donkey Kong, almost every character who appears in Yoshi also appears in Mario games, and many can be reasonably conflated as more associated with Mario than the Yoshi games. For example, the babies. For every Yoshi game they appear in, they appear in just as many Mario games (Double Dash and other Kart games, Partners in Time, etc.) Their trophies are Yoshi branded, but so is Kamek, a character who has since appeared as a stage element in a Mario stage, so "re-association" within the series can happen. Meanwhile, while a franchise like Donkey Kong also has overlap with Mario, it's been shone to be to much less of a degree. K. Rool and Dixie are distinctly Donkey Kong character and can't reasonably be conflated internally as Mario characters.

This is by no means my stance on Yoshi representation, but merely my musings.

Okay, I understand. I had a feeling that you might have misspoke and I'm sorry I jumped on you for it.

Still if that's the case, it only validates my fear that Nintendo doesn't care about Yoshi and his series more than people think...

I want to hold hope that Nintendo won't pull **** like that with Yoshi

 

[MattOnwheels]

People who feel Sakurai owes them a character because of some arbitrary reason should like, cease.

Why don't you make us?

You can't.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

There's been two years of development on this game. Of course there's a lot of content we haven't seen yet.

 

[Wyoming]

I just saw this on Twitter, you guys might be interested to see it.
I have no idea how to make full tweets show up.
I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm fixing myself up for the remainder of the summer.

Ice Climbers confirmed!

Hey wait a minute...

 

[Cosmic77]

They each have major differences in size, speed, weight, and their standard attacks. These are all deeper aspects to the character. These aspects are being ignored in favor of the idea of having “other unique characters instead of 2 more Links.” Which is shallow. It ignores the deeper aspects of the characters because of surface level observations.

You objectively are not satisfied with the current characters because, on the surface, 2 of them are “clones,” despite all the different things the devs need to consider when making a playable character.... which is shallow.

A character being unique is not the only thing that matters to the developers when making them playable. It's a complex process that relies on more than the surface level observations of their moveset.

I must reiterate, each of the 3 Links have major differences in size, speed, weight, and their standard attacks. These are all deeper aspects to the character. These aspects are being ignored in favor of the idea of having “other unique characters instead of 2 more Links.” Which is shallow. It ignores the deeper aspects of the characters because of surface level observations.

I don't really feel like arguing anymore. I appreciate that you're defending Sakurai and the development team, but I really wish you would stop coming off as so aggressive with this. I'm not satisfied with the current six characters, and I don't think Young Link and Toon Link are phenomenally different like Luigi and Wolf are. Don't think I'm wrong for feeling that way, and I don't think the consumer of a product should have to gladly accept whatever is given to him without voicing his opinions on how the product could be better.

I'll just agree to disagree.

People will never shut up about the "Zelda representation" thing. I'm being brutally honest here. You can include literally everything and people would still not be satisfied.

Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Either way, you don't have to lump every person who wants a new Zelda character as selfish or unthankful.

 

[ToddCam]

Daruk is still my favorite choice for a new Zelda character.

I would agree, but only because I have wanted a Goron for the longest time. Daruk is a cool character, but I'd prefer Darunia as a Goron representative.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Now if Dillon was added as a Sonic clone, would you like it if people went "Get over it, he's in the game, what more do you want? Ugh, so spoiled, I bet you think Dillon's Rolling Western is the only franchise in existence"

That wouldn't even be possible in the first place considering Sonic and Dillon don't even share the same body type.

 

[KMDP]

As someone whose favorite character has a franchise that's in a rut, I get real tired of "deserving" arguments...

Hey, at least your character is still getting games.

*Weeps in Solar Gold*

 

[YoshiandToad]

Again, nothing wrong with wanting him or thinking he's likely, just don't repeat the "There's no way he isn't in" like with Smash 4 DLC

And also Smash 4 in general.

Still remember people getting annoyed by users who didn't put him on their prediction rosters.

 

[Enchess]

At least we can all agree Isaac definitely deserves to be in, right?...........right? Ok, whatever, no hard feelings.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Look up the definition before making up your own. Might actually do you some good.

Also, I'd say being acknowledged as a costume due to popularity and given a trophy that states he's the main villain and DK's answer to Mario's Bowser would be enough to shut this kind of argument up. We can't claim he isn't well-known either, if we want to be real, as any poll cam be claimed to be inflated or biased.

Also, I didn't say we needed them over a Zelda character. I always acknowledged the fact that both were in a nearly equal state and pointed out the hypocritical nature of one side to simply dismiss the other despite this.

Don't put words in my mouth.

EDIT: OOOOF. I had "Obscurity" highlighted instead od "obscure". My nad.

I was going to link Merriam Webster but the edit popped up when I hit quote. Mistakes happen

But there's still quite a big difference, namely that K.Rool not appearing in a while means casual gamers won't know him as well, which could harm his chances. These one off Zelda characters however, are likely to be known by casual gamers due to Zelda's immense popularity. Though the Zelda characters being one offs means if they don't reoccur, their chances are harmed. It's not similar enough to call hypocritical I feel.

That wouldn't even be possible in the first place considering Sonic and Dillon don't even share the same body type.

I don't know, it makes a lot more sense tha people who think Zelda's the only franchise to exist. If you don't like the franchise that's fine but you're surprisingly hostile about it

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I just saw this on Twitter, you guys might be interested to see it.
I have no idea how to make full tweets show up.
I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm fixing myself up for the remainder of the summer.

WHAT? Adventure Mode, please. On the other hand, more third parties than expected?

Also, I kinda pity that one guy expecting Fawful.

At least we can all agree Isaac definitely deserves to be in, right?...........right? Ok, whatever, no hard feelings.

It's cool, at least he and Waluigi can be drinking buddies.

 

[PeridotGX]

so, because random subject changing is fun, anyone have random pipe dream characters that make literally no sense and have about zero chance of making it in but want them anyway?
Cuphead, and Monika. Fight me memers, zero irony/sarcasm was in that statement
Monika is always best girl, but in all honesty, you really can't make a moveset for anyone else, but the intellectual complexity that went into that game is mind blowing

A ton of Pokémon. Sceptile, Weavile, Scizor, Ampharos and more would all be really cool.

Also Maxwell from Scribblenauts

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Also no?

The villain is still mostly K.Rool.

Him not being the villain three times doesn't equate to a lot.

Ganindorf has missed more games than that.

Given that both the CEO of Retro Studios as well as the Retro Studios accout backed a twitter campaign to bring back K. Rool, I pretty much expect him to come back to the next DKC game, especially as there already has been plenty of things indicating we're getting a new title for the Switch. It's not a matter of if, but when he comes back as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Will]

On the other hand, more third parties than expected?

Smash 4 was already more than expected for third parties. We got a spanking four new third parties. Unless we're getting five, I think there'd be at most one.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Given that both the CEO of Retro Studios as well as the Retro Studios accout backed a twitter campaign to bring back K. Rool, I pretty much expect him to come back to the next DKC game, especially as there already has been plenty of things indicating we're getting a new title for the Switch. It's not a matter of if, but when he comes back as far as I'm concerned.

Really!? Do you have source for that, since that would be pretty epic.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Crazy thought, but what if she had Diddy's A moves, but DK's Bs?


Up and down B are both things she already shares with DK in Tropical Freeze.

But she still primarily grabs, throws, and attacks with her hair so they'd still have to readjust a lot of the animations. Having Diddy's Down B would be fine but neither Diddy's monkey flip or DK's headbutt suit her either. Again, having her as a true echo would be a huge stretch, even if it's established that she's basically the same height and weight as Diddy.