Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Chandeelure]

I think Bandana Dee is the most likely newcomer right now.

Can you give more details to why do you think that?

 

[Jexulus]

In terms of series representation, most franchises introduced since Brawl have only gotten one representative each, with Kid Icarus being the exception. Of the three Melee franchises, only one franchise, Fire Emblem, has received more than one representative. Chances are, we won't be seeing characters from any of these franchises appear (most are retro/feature only one main character/both).

Now, let's take a look at the 10 original franchises introduced in Smash 64. Mario and Pokemon receive representation on the regular (even in Brawl where Mario technically got Wario), and given that Daisy is a thing, Pokemon is likely to receive at least one more, echo or otherwise. Zelda (the franchise) received 4 distinct characters in Melee, traded one clone for another in Brawl, no one in Smash 4, and return of the first clone in Ultimate. It should be noted that each character has been given significant tweaks over the course of each game, and this game in particular has seen a massive visual and/or mechanical overhaul to 4 of them. Breath of the Wild has granted the franchise mainstream success and acclaim unseen since Ocarina of Time, enough that Nintendo might be motivated to add another character to the roster. We've already seen that significant time and resources have been used to overhaul the existing roster, so its clear that the franchise has been given attention in that regard.

Kirby saw two characters in Brawl and nothing since, and so far we haven't seen any indication that the franchise has gotten any particular focus besides the tweaking and polish consistent with many of the other characters present. Star Allies was released a few months ago, and the series as a whole is still popular and profitable, so there might be a character in the pipeline, but most would agree they're pretty well represented as is (that's not to confuse or conflate with "no one wanting new characters"; that's not my point). Star Fox saw a new character in both Melee and Brawl, but not in Smash 4. All three characters have seen a visual redesign hailing from their most recent title, but since Zero is a reboot/reimagining of the original game and has not received mainstream success, there might not be a priority to introduce another Star Fox character, especially if the attitude is that the franchise's representation is adequate in proportion to its popularity/stable of characters and games to choose from.

Earthbound saw Lucas in Brawl, and they've received notable changes in terms of their Final Smashes summoning characters from their respective games and other mechanical tweaks. Even though the series is long over, the fact that Earthbound Zero saw a Western release a few years ago, coupled with this newfound focus on Ness and Lucas incorporating elements from their home games, might lend credence to a playable appearance by Ninten as both a retro character and to complete a trilogy of game representation. Otherwise, Earthbound representation is most perceived to be satisfactory.

Yoshi is Yoshi, and his games typically star he, himself, and no one else. He's received the standard visual and mechanical tweaks, so there isn't any real evidence to suggest we'll see another Yoshi-branded character pop up. If they do, it's possible they'll appear as a Mario representative instead. That might be the attitude towards the franchise, given the lack of a recent hit.

Which leaves Metroid, F-Zero, and Donkey Kong. Metroid now features Ridley and a ZSS redesign, and given that the series has seen a recent release and has Prime 4 in the pipeline, this makes sense. Donkey Kong has successfully been revitalized by the Returns games, and while Diddy Kong is the only addition we've seen, both characters have received visual changes and new Final Smashes. A new representative might well be in the pipeline, but there aren't clear signs like with Zelda. And poor F-Zero. No titles since the Gamecube, and no clear second banana to Captain Falcon. However, the Smash franchise is reaching its 20th anniversary in January (Japanese release of 64). F-Zero might see a new rep given its status as a legacy franchise and its clear ties to the series roots and its popularity.

This has been ramblings with the Peanut Gallery. Carry on.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

heavy.. but aerially agile? he uses the side b grab anywhere near the edge and that's a stock, I'm scared, and I feel justified

Nah, it's fine, the game is still getting balanced, Ridley's the easiest character to hit and is less heavy than other heavies and you can mash out of any grabs. Ridley also doesn't have safe kill moves and his "You're dead now just drop the controller lol" attack does NOTHING to shields

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

You can do that yes. But you can't flesh out personality, character development and backstory very well with a lack of story. Plus, there's the fact the Zelda series is not only pretty damn popular but also it has more games than DKC does. And the cast usually revolves and everyone gets favourites

I'm not saying they both don't but I'm not the one saying "Zelda characters are possibly more popular than a character who hasn't been used in a decade?" either

The cast of DK can be argued to revolve just as much at this point. Just saying.

 

[ThatGuyWhoKnowsNothing]

so, because random subject changing is fun, anyone have random pipe dream characters that make literally no sense and have about zero chance of making it in but want them anyway?
Cuphead, and Monika. Fight me memers, zero irony/sarcasm was in that statement
Monika is always best girl, but in all honesty, you really can't make a moveset for anyone else, but the intellectual complexity that went into that game is mind blowing

 

[Zinith]

If they do, it's possible they'll appear as a Mario representative instead. That might be the attitude towards the franchise, given the lack of a recent hit.

Goddammit, why do people think this?

 

[NintenRob]

Lately, I've been trying to think up a Palutena's Guidance concept for one of the returning fighters. I may have one idea in mind...

Pichu

• Viridi: Wow, what a cutie!!
• Pit: Something seems off about that Pikachu...
• Viridi: It's actually a Pichu, Pikachu's pre-evolved form. Just looking at it makes you not want to hurt it.
• Palutena: But don't let its cute appearance fool you Pit. Pichu may be short and very lightweight, but it's very dangerous if you're not careful.
• Pit: I've dealt with Pikachu's electricity before. I don't see how Pichu's electricity can be worse.
• Viridi: If you get shocked by it, you'll definitely feel the difference.
• Palutena: You see Pit, Pichu is not very experienced with storing electricity. When it unleashes its electric attacks, they're going to pack a greater punch than what you'd get from Pikachu.
• Pit: Okay, so maybe it's not so harmless after all...
• Viridi: However, Pichu also damages itself during the process. If it's too careless with its electricity, that could take a huge toll on its endurance.
• Palutena: The best option for victory is to bait Pichu into using its electricity. By making it hurt itself, it'll become easier for you to finish it off.
• Viridi: Also, be wary of Pichu's speed. It's quick at escaping from danger, so you'll have to chase it down as well.
• Pit: I think I've got it. Guess I'll just have to hope that Pichu's bark is worse than its jolt.

Huh kinda reminds of a baby Snake. They say getting bitten by one a baby Snake is more dangerous because they can't control how much venom they produce to end up with a greater dose

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The cast of DK can be argued to revolve just as much at this point. Just saying.

N-no? It's still the same DK, Diddy, Cranky, etc. Unlike Zelda where it's very rarely the same character but rather a reincarnation.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm just hoping it is mostly new tracks. Smash 4 had a lot of ported Brawl songs which was fine, they were great, but definitely made it feel less grandiose in that department.

Since we're getting a lot of returning stages, I'm not expecting the new tracks to come close to outnumbering the old ones.

Still, the new songs we've gotten have been pretty spectacular. Very impressed with everything we've heard so far, especially the BotW theme, Brinstar Depths, and Bomb Rush Blush.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The cast of DK can be argued to revolve just as much at this point. Just saying.

Wha?

Donkey Kong has had a consistent cast of heroes for its entire lifetime.

They don't appear in every game (Like Luigi) but that doesn't mean the cast revolves as much as freaking Zelda.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

N-no? It's still the same DK, Diddy, Cranky, etc. Unlike Zelda where it's very rarely the same character but rather a reincarnation.

The villains change quite a lot apparently, right?

Zelda has a reoccurring cast that's already repped if we want to go there, while DK's is not.

 

[Opossum]

so, because random subject changing is fun, anyone have random pipe dream characters that make literally no sense and have about zero chance of making it in but want them anyway?
Cuphead, and Monika. Fight me memers, zero irony/sarcasm was in that statement

The entire bottom section of my signature.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

so, because random subject changing is fun, anyone have random pipe dream characters that make literally no sense and have about zero chance of making it in but want them anyway?
Cuphead, and Monika. Fight me memers, zero irony/sarcasm was in that statement

Blaze the cat and Garchomp, my favourite Sonic character and my favourite Pokemon. Oh and my baby Melia from Xenoblade, Fiora goes first though

 

[Enchess]

Okay but where did I say it was the worst treated? that honour absolutely goes to Donkey Kong but the fact of the matter is that Zelda is Nintendo's 3rd most popular series, it's got tons of fans that want to see their favourite characters represented in this game and yet it's stuck with 3 unique characters and hasn't had a new one since melee. Wanting another Zelda character in the game isn't unfair to me, why does this weird *** rule only apply to Zelda, people want more mario and pokemon characters and no one bats an eye but when it comes to Zelda who character wise is worse off than those 2 it suddenly doesn't matter and "all the important characters are already in" as if their aren't side characters that are important, popular and would make unique characters.

Someone a ways back said Zelda is the only already represented IP who should get another rep and people are complaining about the 3 Links + Zelda + Ganondorf as if it's a disservice to the series when it's still better than most franchises get. Also, people definitely bat an eye at new Mario and Pokemon requests, but I think the difference is Zelda's popular characters are Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, and one-offs. There's not necessarily anything wrong with one-offs, but I think people are just annoyed at people saying we need one-offs for one of the most represented series before we even have the main cast of other franchises.

You can do that yes. But you can't flesh out personality, character development and backstory very well with a lack of story. Plus, there's the fact the Zelda series is not only pretty damn popular but also it has more games than DKC does. And the cast usually revolves and everyone gets favourites

I'm not saying they both don't but I'm not the one saying "Zelda characters are possibly more popular than a character who hasn't been used in a decade?" either

Story is a bit of a rabbit hole to get into. The first Xenoblade Chronicles alone probably has more story and well-developed characters than half the Zelda series, but I'm not gonna say XC needs Melia in Smash. And that's coming from someone who likes XC more than any Zelda game out there.

 

[RiotLupine]

Nah, it's fine, the game is still getting balanced, Ridley's the easiest character to hit and is less heavy than other heavies and you can mash out of any grabs. Ridley also doesn't have safe kill moves and his "You're dead now just drop the controller lol" attack does NOTHING to shields

You mean that ?
Even on the Sweetspot?

If so, then whoa.

From the look of it anyway, Ridley seems to be balanced like a Glass cannon, His damage output and offensive prowess is horrifying, but he's so big, not that heavy and has at least mediocre recovery, he's screwed as soon as he gets poked.

Unless he pokes them first.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The villains change quite a lot apparently, right?

Zelda has a reoccurring cast that's already repped if we want to go there, while DK's is not.

I think this entire thing is a misunderstanding. Zelda fans are disappointed at the lackluster variety. There's Link, Link, Link, Zelda, Zelda and Ganondorf. People aren't saying "Zelda needs a new character before DK does", but they're saying "I wish Zelda had more characters than just the obligatory Triforce trio and some of the characters we love but may not see again"

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The villains change quite a lot apparently, right?

Zelda has a reoccurring cast that's already repped if we want to go there, while DK's is not.

Also no?

The villain is still mostly K.Rool.

Him not being the villain three times doesn't equate to a lot.

Ganindorf has missed more games than that.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Wha?

Donkey Kong has had a consistent cast of heroes for its entire lifetime.

They don't appear in every game (Like Luigi) but that doesn't mean the cast revolves as much as freaking Zelda.

This is Because most of the characters either died off or are stuck in some parallel dimension to begin with, like Midna, who could still technically be alive, just stuck in her dimension with no way to return to Link's.

 

[Zinith]

Yoshi is Yoshi, and his games typically star he, himself, and no one else. He's received the standard visual and mechanical tweaks, so there isn't any real evidence to suggest we'll see another Yoshi-branded character pop up. If they do, it's possible they'll appear as a Mario representative instead. That might be the attitude towards the franchise, given the lack of a recent hit.

I don't necessarily disagree with all of this, but what makes you think a "Yoshi-branded character" will appear as a Mario rep? If Poochy somehow got in (which I'm not advocating for btw), would he appear as a Mario rep?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You mean that ?
Even on the Sweetspot?

If so, then whoa.

From the look of it anyway, Ridley seems to be balanced like a Glass cannon, His damage output and offensive prowess is horrifying, but he's so big, not that heavy and has at least mediocre recovery, he's screwed as soon as he gets poked.

Unless he pokes them first.

Yup. I believe a shofu video shows it with direct feed showing just how tiny the sweetspot really is

Someone a ways back said Zelda is the only already represented IP who should get another rep and people are complaining about the 3 Links + Zelda + Ganondorf as if it's a disservice to the series when it's still better than most franchises get. Also, people definitely bat an eye at new Mario and Pokemon requests, but I think the difference is Zelda's popular characters are Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, and one-offs. There's not necessarily anything wrong with one-offs, but I think people are just annoyed at people saying we need one-offs for one of the most represented series before we even have the main cast of other franchises.



Story is a bit of a rabbit hole to get into. The first Xenoblade Chronicles alone probably has more story and well-developed characters than half the Zelda series, but I'm not gonna say XC needs Melia in Smash. And that's coming from someone who likes XC more than any Zelda game out there.

That's... Not what I meant either. What I meant is that because there's an actual story and writing you can flesh them out. You can't really have anything but simplicity for DK's style

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

It wouldn't even shock me if we got both Dixie and Cranky in at the same time, before K. Rool.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Also no?

The villain is still mostly K.Rool.

Him not being the villain three times doesn't equate to a lot.

Ganindorf has missed more games than that.

How can one be the "main villain" or "mostly" as you say, yet still be considered "irrelevant" and "obscure" when these less important Zelda characters are advocated for despite having lesser roles and having the same exact issues?

That's what I'm trying to say. It sounds hyocritical.

 

[Will]

I don't necessarily disagree with all of this, but what makes you think a "Yoshi-branded character" will appear as a Mario rep? If Poochy somehow got in (which I'm not advocating for btw), would he appear as a Mario rep?

I still can't get over that fake leak, I never really noticed how much Poochy is reappearing in recent games. Odyssey, Wooly World, the thing's gonna show up somehow.

 

[Cosmic77]

Here's something I'm sure we can all agree on.

If Zelda gets a new rep, let's hope Sakurai reveals it soon so we can finally stop with the done to death "Zelda representation" arguments.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Also no?

The villain is still mostly K.Rool.

Him not being the villain three times doesn't equate to a lot.

Ganindorf has missed more games than that.

To be fair, he did miss DK's big comeback though, and that game's sequel.

And Ganondorf is in every Zelda game, he just goes under the name ganon, that's still the same character.

 

[PeridotGX]

View attachment 149864

Not him, but I think he's the most likely for a few reasons. We know the ballot will play a large role in the roster, and Dee benefits from that. He's hugely popular across the globe with both Casuals and Competitive people. Also, in 2015 we got Rainbow Curse, where Dee was the only other Playable Character.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Here's something I'm sure we can all agree on.

If Zelda gets a new rep, let's hope Sakurai reveals it soon so we can finally stop with the done to death "Zelda representation" arguments.

Nah, people will only want more Zelda characters because they think The Legend of Zelda is the only franchise in existence.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

How can one be the "main villain" as you say, yet still be considered "irrelevant" and "obscure" when these less important Zelda characters are advoxated for despite have lesser roles and having the same exact issues?

That's what I'm trying to say. It sounds hyocritical.

'obscure' is said due to lack of recent appearances. Same goes for 'irrelevant'. Yuga from Link Between Worlds appeared in 2014, so he's more relevant due to his more recent appearance in a main game for example. Nobody but you is making this a DK VS Zelda thing

 

[Pyra]

It's not Smashboards without Dr. Pepper.

I remember you back from the Pic of the Day/Days era of Smash 4.

Hey, how's it going?
It's been so long. I'm excited to be back but it'll take me a while to spin up my being constantly active again. Haha.

 

[Cosmic77]

Nah, people will only want more Zelda characters because they think The Legend of Zelda is the only franchise in existence.

Dude, at least try to meet me halfway.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And Ganondorf is in every Zelda game,

That's not even close to being true.

Majora's Mask, Minish Cap, Phanton Hourglass, Spirit Tracks... etc.

About half of the Zelda games have no mention of Ganondorf OR Ganon.

 

[Will]

The villain is still mostly K.Rool.

5/18 games had K. Rool be the villain.
10/19 games had Ganondorf be the villain.

You tell me which is more notable.

 

[Wyoming]

Me, a F-Zero fan: New reps, eh? What about Black Shadow?

The smash community in complete agreement:

lol no it doesn't need one except if he took over Ganondorf's old moveset then sure why not

-F-Zero speculation ends-

Be more like F-Zero.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Why has this randomly turned into a "franchise X shouldn't get a character because franchise Y deserves it more" thing?...it's stupid...

 

[RouffWestie]

Except those 3 Link's play the same, I think multiple Links would be justified if they weren't clones and if we hadn't gone nearly 2 decades without another newcomer from the series.

They each have major differences in size, speed, weight, and their standard attacks. These are all deeper aspects to the character. These aspects are being ignored in favor of the idea of having “other unique characters instead of 2 more Links.” Which is shallow. It ignores the deeper aspects of the characters because of surface level observations.

Heck, Breath of the Wild Link already has even more differences from the other two now in that he no longer has hookshot, shoots 2 arrows, can pick up arrows, and can detonate his bombs manually.

It doesn't matter that link is the protagonist and that he's important, what's important in a fighting game is having unique characters that people actually want in the game.

That the roster isn't handled this way is one reason I'm happy with the current choices.

While they rep the three timelines I don't really see how that matters in a fighting game, I'd rather have other unique characters than 2 more links. They're here for a reason but writing off other characters that fans want and trying to shame them for not wanting 3 of essentially the same character is stupid.

Still not trying to shame you, I'm just defending what current developers have done

How is it shallow to want more? No one ever said the only reason why someone would want a new Zelda character is because "Six isn't enough! We need more reps!"

You objectively are not satisfied with the current characters because, on the surface, 2 of them are “clones,” despite all the different things the devs need to consider when making a playable character.... which is shallow.

Yes, I do think Zelda should get more reps, but it's not entirely because I not satisfied with the number we have right now. Half of the reps aren't even original, and I feel like Sakurai has glossed over some very unique additions who definitely wouldn't be added, "just for the sake of it". I wasn't there when the roster was decided in Brawl and Smash 4, so maybe there's more to it that I don't understand. Regardless, there are still some Zelda characters I'd love to see in Smash, and I shouldn't be shamed by others just because I want a character from a specific franchise.

A character being unique is not the only thing that matters to the developers when making them playable. It's a complex process that relies on more than the surface level observations of their moveset.
I must reiterate, each of the 3 Links have major differences in size, speed, weight, and their standard attacks. These are all deeper aspects to the character. These aspects are being ignored in favor of the idea of having “other unique characters instead of 2 more Links.” Which is shallow. It ignores the deeper aspects of the characters because of surface level observations.

 

[ToddCam]

So, with Assist Trophies getting actually KO'd, what would you say to adding them to All-Star mode to defeat? I think it would be a great way to make it the ultimate, and for All-Star, the more the merrier, I say.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Nah, people will only want more Zelda characters because they think The Legend of Zelda is the only franchise in existence.

Almost like Zelda is really ****ing popular. And Cosmic's likely referring to "Well look you already have 5 characters regardless of how unique they are be happy" . Now if Dillon was added as a Sonic clone, would you like it if people went "Get over it, he's in the game, what more do you want? Ugh, so spoiled, I bet you think Dillon's Rolling Western is the only franchise in existence"

 

[FlareHabanero]

Dude, at least try to meet me halfway.

People will never shut up about the "Zelda representation" thing. I'm being brutally honest here. You can include literally everything and people would still not be satisfied.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

That's not even close to being true.

Majora's Mask, Minish Cap, Phanton Hourglass, Spirit Tracks... etc.

About half of the Zelda games have no mention of Ganondorf OR Ganon.

My bad, I forget about some of the smaller titles sometimes, idk how I forgot about majora's mask tho lmao. My point still stands that he's in the vast majority of Zelda titles though

 

[Will]

So, with Assist Trophies getting actually KO'd, what would you say to adding them to All-Star mode to defeat? I think it would be a great way to make it the ultimate, and for All-Star, the more the merrier, I say.

Maybe as like a Rush Mode with a bunch of ATs at once, otherwise I don't see much of a point.