Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MoonlitIllusion]

so... am I the only one terrified of Ridley going into smash 5? he has a move that infinitely throws you off the stage, and a sturdy looking dair to boot...
this is going to make cloud completely irrelevant and drive everyone else who enjoys living insane

Riddles has waited long enough, he's allowed to be broken, let him have this

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

God, these obscurity arguments are annoying. Lol

You'd think a relatively throwaway character from most Zelda games would be deemed obscure by default or evem Krystal but look at where we are.

 

[Enchess]

...ok call me an idiot but what two games are you reffering to? (Unless Fatal Frame was one, then what other are you reffering to?)

If it's Metroid, just because there are horrific elements doesn't make it a horror, specifically survival horror which is what Resident Evil would represent (especially with the return to survial horror with 7 and 2 remake).

Anyway a Resident villager character has been on my dream wishlist since I was like 10, but I also knew it was super unlikely even then lol. Would be reallllly crazy to see it come true. I agree that representing the monsters and Zombies would be the real issue. Also team Jill.

Eternal Darkness and Fatal Frame. I feel like RE getting in Smash before either of those would be like if Smash got Digimon and no Pokemon, Darksiders and no Zelda, or Tactics Ogre and no Fire Emblem. It just feels wrong.

EDIT: Completely forgot about Geist. I never got around to that one. OK, so the 2 horror IP Nintendo owns or the 1 it co-owns.
EDIT2: Nevermind about Geist, I didn't know much about it haha. So back to 1 horror IP owned, 1 co-owned. Geist Assist trophy would be cool.

 

[monadoboy]

developer's clear effort to fairly represent the series

I'm sorry, but I just can't see that effort. It's an "okay" effort at best.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

"Deserves" doesn't mean "likely" or "will".

Worked for Ridley

 

[RiotLupine]

Eternal Darkness and Geist I think

Geist isnt a Horror game, more like a... really weird FPS...
I'd love me an ED rep, there is so much potential from one game alone, Either Alexander Roivas or Pious Agustus would be perfect. plus the weapons you get as well as the magic spells you can use would make for an interesting playstyle.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Geist isnt a Horror game, more like a... really weird FPS...
I'd love me an ED rep, there is so much potential from one game alone, Either Alexander Roivas or Pious Agustus would be perfect. plus the weapons you get as well as the magic spells you can use would make for an interesting playstyle.

This is why I cast a safety net with 'I think' lol

 

[RouffWestie]

Why do people act like it's a shameful sin to want more characters for Zelda?

It's focusing on quantity over quality and shows a lack of understanding of how complicated it is for the development team to decide who should be playable.
And from what I've seen, it seems more like the fans are the ones acting like the developers are committing a shameful sin. I'm doing nothing more than defending their current decisions. I've just said that it's a shallow belief to want more, because it pretty much is by textbook definition.

Look, despite the love the Zelda series has gotten through items and stages, the series deserves better than three unique characters and three semi-clones, two of which are literally the same character. If the series was barren in terms of possible characters, you might have a point, but there are plenty of unique options who would blend in perfectly with Smash.

Everyone knows Link is Link. He's the main protagonist, he's come in many different forms throughout the series, and each appearance has been used in more than just one game. Having 3 Links - in my opinion - is a lot more fair than just one Link & several other characters just for the sake of having them.

 

[RiotLupine]

This is why I cast a safety net with 'I think' lol

lol sorry, sometimes I read things too quickly.

 

[Blargg888]

And better yet, he still hasn't officially appeared over here in Western shores.

He technically appears in the Epilogue of Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword. So he has appeared, he's just never been playable in the west.

 

[KMDP]

Everyone knows Link is Zelda.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Enchess]

He technically appears in the Epilogue of Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword. So he has appeared, he's just never been playable in the west.

Technically correct, the best kind of correct.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Yeah, I don't get the disliking for three Links either when all three cleverly rep the three timelines of the series. Or rather, they used to since we don't know where BotW places on the timeline

Well actually, no. You can argue BotW is the rep for the Adult Link we play as in the games, meaning they rep each incarnation of Link as a whole throughout the series.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

It's focusing on quantity over quality and shows a lack of understanding of how complicated it is for the development team to decide who should be playable.
And from what I've seen, it seems more like the fans are the ones acting like the developers are committing a shameful sin. I'm doing nothing more than defending their current decisions. I've just said that it's a shallow belief to want more, because it pretty much is by textbook definition.

Everyone knows Link is Link. He's the main protagonist, he's come in many different forms throughout the series, and each appearance has been used in more than just one game. Having 3 Links - in my opinion - is a lot more fair than just one Link & several other characters just for the sake of having them.

Except those 3 Link's play the same, I think multiple Links would be justified if they weren't clones and if we hadn't gone nearly 2 decades without another newcomer from the series. It doesn't matter that link is the protagonist and that he's important, what's important in a fighting game is having unique characters that people actually want in the game.

Yeah, I don't get the disliking for three Links either when all three cleverly rep the three timelines of the series. Or rather, they used to since we don't know where BotW places on the timeline

While they rep the three timelines I don't really see how that matters in a fighting game, I'd rather have other unique characters than 2 more links. They're here for a reason but writing off other characters that fans want and trying to shame them for not wanting 3 of essentially the same character is stupid.

 

[KMDP]

He technically appears in the Epilogue of Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword. So he has appeared, he's just never been playable in the west.

Yeah, in the US version.

The EU versions (there were two) didn't get the luxury of seeing child Roy.

 

[Murlough]

so... am I the only one terrified of Ridley going into smash 5? he has a move that infinitely throws you off the stage, and a sturdy looking dair to boot...
this is going to make cloud completely irrelevant and drive everyone else who enjoys living insane

Dunno if someone already said this but you can mash out of his side b grab.

I don't think Ridley is gonna end up especially scary competitively. He looks fun but not amazing.

Him being a heavy doesn't help, either.

 

[Delzethin]

So my personal thoughts on the roster have changed a bit since E3. Not enough time to do another video since other projects are higher priority, but here's more or less what I think we could see in the base release:

Honorable mentions: Elma, Ashley, Isabelle, Paper Mario, Excitebiker, other Gen 7 options, Rayman, Steve, Shadow(ε), Funky Kong(ε)

Currently predicting 8 newcomers and 4 new echo fighters for the base game. As you may have seen last week, I'm starting to think the Smash Ballot is influencing decisions for Ultimate in more subtle ways (like making Ridley higher priority, and getting Bomberman and Krystal in as ATs after presumably not being chosen to be playable), and may not actually help out anyone who wouldn't already be eligible. This is why I'm bigger than before on Dixie Kong and Geno, and especially confident about Bandana Dee. Lycanroc and Rex & Pyra are major, unique characters with a lot of moveset potential that potentially got the Greninja treatment, and I think echo fighters may be a way of adding some popular faces who wouldn't have a chance otherwise.

Far as details go...I think Bandana Dee is the most likely newcomer right now, any Lycanroc form could work (though I still think Dusk is the most likely since we know they plan the anime out well in advance), Simon may have a legit shot even without the leak due to Konami being back and Bomberman being a summon, and his alts would be half his classic design and half his Lords of Shadow design. Dixie (and Isabelle) could work as distinct newcomers, semi-clones, or echo fighters, though I'm sure their fans would prefer the former. Impa would use either her Skyward Sword design or something original based on what BotW!Impa would've looked like when she was younger. Rex & Pyra is the shakiest pick here, and I could easily see Elma being chosen instead.

I also think we'll see extensive DLC eventually, with multiple "seasons" a la other major fighting games right now. Each season would have 4-5 purchased newcomers and 1-2 free echo fighters.

 

[Cosmic77]

It's focusing on quantity over quality and shows a lack of understanding of how complicated it is for the development team to decide who should be playable.
And from what I've seen, it seems more like the fans are the ones acting like the developers are committing a shameful sin. I'm doing nothing more than defending their current decisions. I've just said that it's a shallow belief to want more, because it pretty much is by textbook definition.

How is it shallow to want more? No one ever said the only reason why someone would want a new Zelda character is because "Six isn't enough! We need more reps!"

Yes, I do think Zelda should get more reps, but it's not entirely because I not satisfied with the number we have right now. Half of the reps aren't even original, and I feel like Sakurai has glossed over some very unique additions who definitely wouldn't be added, "just for the sake of it". I wasn't there when the roster was decided in Brawl and Smash 4, so maybe there's more to it that I don't understand. Regardless, there are still some Zelda characters I'd love to see in Smash, and I shouldn't be shamed by others just because I want a character from a specific franchise.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I found this while researching Resident Evil and Smash:

Cool. RT @Bernie_dg I want to see Leon S. Kennedy in Smash Bros! What do you think about that?

— 無職? 神谷英樹 Unemployed? Hideki Kamiya (@HidekiKamiya_X) August 7, 2012

If Resident Evil were to get a character in Smash Bros. who should it be?
{RT for bigger sample appreciated!}

— Matthew Foxwell (@MLFoxwell) March 19, 2018

Now I am pretty sure Leon is the most popular. I could be wrong, but that is what I am feeling at the moment. I think I will make an analysis for the character soon. This is probably one of the most interesting characters I could ever analyze in Smash.

 

[Enchess]

Except those 3 Link's play the same, I think multiple Links would be justified if they weren't clones and if we hadn't gone nearly 2 decades without another newcomer from the series. It doesn't matter that link is the protagonist and that he's important, what's important in a fighting game is having unique characters that people actually want in the game.


While they rep the three timelines I don't really see how that matters in a fighting game, I'd rather have other unique characters than 2 more links. They're here for a reason but writing off other characters that fans want and trying to shame them for not wanting 3 of essentially the same character is stupid.

Honestly, at least Zelda gets its villain, even if cloned. I'd rather K Rool as a clone of Bowser than not having him at all, even though that would be as unfaithful to his character as Falcon Ganondorf. At least it gets good soundtrack variety and not the same song remixed over and over. At least it gets lot of stages with diversity. At least it gets a lot of assist trophies. Zelda is no where near the most mistreated represented IP in smash. At least Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf all got fairly substantial changes in Ultimate.

If Zelda didn't get a new rep, it would still have better treatment and representation than pretty much every other series with the exception of Mario and Pokemon.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

I found this while researching Resident Evil and Smash:

Cool. RT @Bernie_dg I want to see Leon S. Kennedy in Smash Bros! What do you think about that?

— 無職? 神谷英樹 Unemployed? Hideki Kamiya (@HidekiKamiya_X) August 7, 2012

If Resident Evil were to get a character in Smash Bros. who should it be?
{RT for bigger sample appreciated!}

— Matthew Foxwell (@MLFoxwell) March 19, 2018

Now I am pretty sure Leon is the most popular. I could be wrong, but that is what I am feeling at the moment.

Well ... I don't see Nemesis as a viable option, or else the results would be shaken up, I'm sure.

 

[Idon]

I'm not very in touch with RE as a franchise, but Maximilian Dood and Yo Videogames are always asking for Leon S Kennedy in MvC instead of Chris Redfield.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The thing with Zelda is simple. Imagine if for Metroid we only had Samus. Imagine if there were multiple Mario characters that were literally just Mario. Could you imagine that for a second? In all seriousness, it's those criticisms of Metroid pre-Ridley and Dr. Mario but on a wider scale. 5 characters but 3 are the same person and share the moveset? That's just padding. "But there's only one off characters!" So? If they're popular and can work, add em!

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So my personal thoughts on the roster have changed a bit since E3. Not enough time to do another video since other projects are higher priority, but here's more or less what I think we could see in the base release:

View attachment 149836

Elma is more likely than Rex due to actually good timing. Knowing that the roster was conceptualized in December 2015 (when Ema would have still been the recent due to the international release date of Xenoblade X), Rex really has no advantage over her.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

One-off, and sometimes completely obscure characters from Zelda can somehow get more appeal and demand than a practically retired main villain of his franchise who happens to be in one of the more successful IPs from Nintendo with ONLY obscurity/lack of relevance to his name?

Forget a Mii Costume, the dude had trophies in Sm4sh practically calling him the main villain of the franchise and people still have the audacity to claim otherwise?

I literally cannot believe this lol

 

[Enchess]

The thing with Zelda is simple. Imagine if for Metroid we only had Samus. Imagine if there were multiple Mario characters that were literally just Mario. Could you imagine that for a second? In all seriousness, it's those criticisms of Metroid pre-Ridley and Dr. Mario but on a wider scale. 5 characters but 3 are the same person and share the moveset? That's just padding. "But there's only one off characters!" So? If they're popular and can work, add em!

It's really not the same as the Metroid thing. If Zelda had three links and no other characters it would be similar.

I agree with the Dr. Mario comparison. It's exactly like when Mario had it's main character, damsel in distress, and villain and had padding on top of that.

 

[Wyoming]

Conversely I think the soundtrack is what aged the best. Brawl's soundtrack was far more consistently good than Smash 4's IMO, but Ultimate might top it. Loving what we've heard of the new remixes of Destiny (Ablaze) and Bonus Room Blitz.

I'm just hoping it is mostly new tracks. Smash 4 had a lot of ported Brawl songs which was fine, they were great, but definitely made it feel less grandiose in that department.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Palutena already explained why Chrom can't be Ike's Echo Fighter

 

[Cutie Gwen]

One-off, and sometimes completely obscure characters from Zelda can somehow get more appeal and demand than a practically retired main villain of his franchise who happens to be in one of the more successful IPs from Nintendo with ONLY obscurity/lack of relevance to his name?

Forget a Mii Costume, the dude had trophies in Sm4sh practically calling him the main villain of the franchise and people still have the audacity to claim otherwise?

I literally cannot believe this lol

Almost like you're comparing Donkey Kong, a franchise that took a Metroid-like wait for new games to Legend of goddamn Zelda. Zelda also has the benefit of having actual writing which can flesh characters out due to the larger story emphasis than DK's. As in, it actually exists

 

[Chandeelure]

I found this while researching Resident Evil and Smash:

Cool. RT @Bernie_dg I want to see Leon S. Kennedy in Smash Bros! What do you think about that?

— 無職? 神谷英樹 Unemployed? Hideki Kamiya (@HidekiKamiya_X) August 7, 2012

If Resident Evil were to get a character in Smash Bros. who should it be?
{RT for bigger sample appreciated!}

— Matthew Foxwell (@MLFoxwell) March 19, 2018

Now I am pretty sure Leon is the most popular. I could be wrong, but that is what I am feeling at the moment. I think I will make an analysis for the character soon. This is probably one of the most interesting characters I could ever analyze in Smash.

A RE character would be so hype.

 

[Opossum]

Palutena already explained why Chrom can't be Ike's Echo Fighter View attachment 149838

The ironic part is that Chrom actually does. He gets Aether in Awakening and uses a high jump with a spinning somersault landing in one of the cutscenes.

Always wondered if that was just a lack of research by the Treehouse team or an error that existed in the Japanese version too.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Honestly, at least Zelda gets its villain, even if cloned. I'd rather K Rool as a clone of Bowser than not having him at all, even though that would be as unfaithful to his character as Falcon Ganondorf. At least it gets good soundtrack variety and not the same song remixed over and over. At least it gets lot of stages with diversity. At least it gets a lot of assist trophies. Zelda is no where near the most mistreated represented IP in smash. At least Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf all got fairly substantial changes in Ultimate.

If Zelda didn't get a new rep, it would still have better treatment and representation than pretty much every other series with the exception of Mario and Pokemon.

Okay but where did I say it was the worst treated? that honour absolutely goes to Donkey Kong but the fact of the matter is that Zelda is Nintendo's 3rd most popular series, it's got tons of fans that want to see their favourite characters represented in this game and yet it's stuck with 3 unique characters and hasn't had a new one since melee. Wanting another Zelda character in the game isn't unfair to me, why does this weird ass rule only apply to Zelda, people want more mario and pokemon characters and no one bats an eye but when it comes to Zelda who character wise is worse off than those 2 it suddenly doesn't matter and "all the important characters are already in" as if their aren't side characters that are important, popular and would make unique characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

The ironic part is that Chrom actually does. He gets Aether in Awakening and uses a high jump with a spinning somersault landing in one of the cutscenes.

Always wondered if that was just a lack of research by the Treehouse team or an error that existed in the Japanese version too.

Treehouse is the only translation to meme about Chrom iirc. I think it's a slight miswording about how Chrom's Aether doesn't have the same animation

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Almost like you're comparing Donkey Kong, a franchise that took a Metroid-like wait for new games to Legend of goddamn Zelda. Zelda also has the benefit of having actual writing which can flesh characters out due to the larger story emphasis than DK's. As in, it actually exists

So now we're comparing the franchises themselves with the stories?

You can garner a personality even with a lack of a coherent, or in-your-face story. Look at Mario or the old-timey silent films.

At this point, I feel like people will just find anything to complain about.

 

[Cosmic77]

The thing with Zelda is simple. Imagine if for Metroid we only had Samus. Imagine if there were multiple Mario characters that were literally just Mario. Could you imagine that for a second? In all seriousness, it's those criticisms of Metroid pre-Ridley and Dr. Mario but on a wider scale. 5 characters but 3 are the same person and share the moveset? That's just padding. "But there's only one off characters!" So? If they're popular and can work, add em!

Exactly! I appreciated how much effort Sakurai put into representing Metroid through stage boss Ridley and the new ATs in Smash 4, but it's not quite what I was hoping for.

Same thing with Zelda. I'm glad to have gotten what we have already, but there's so much more he could do with the roster besides Link, Link, and Link.

One-off, and sometimes completely obscure characters from Zelda can somehow get more appeal and demand than a practically retired main villain of his franchise who happens to be in one of the more successful IPs from Nintendo with ONLY obscurity/lack of relevance to his name?

Forget a Mii Costume, the dude had trophies in Sm4sh practically calling him the main villain of the franchise and people still have the audacity to claim otherwise?

I literally cannot believe this lol

Why are we even bringing up K. Rool in the first place? He has literally nothing to do with how likely a new Zelda character is.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Almost like you're comparing Donkey Kong, a franchise that took a Metroid-like wait for new games to Legend of goddamn Zelda. Zelda also has the benefit of having actual writing which can flesh characters out due to the larger story emphasis than DK's. As in, it actually exists

Zelda and Donkey Kong both deserve new characters, idk why this has become some weird competition lmao

 

[ThatGuyWhoKnowsNothing]

Dunno if someone already said this but you can mash out of his side b grab.

I don't think Ridley is gonna end up especially scary competitively. He looks fun but not amazing.

Him being a heavy doesn't help, either.

heavy.. but aerially agile? he uses the side b grab anywhere near the edge and that's a stock, I'm scared, and I feel justified

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So now we're comparing the franchises themselves with the stories?

You can garner a personality even with a lack of a coherent, or in-your-face story. Look at Mario or the old-timey silent films.

You can do that yes. But you can't flesh out personality, character development and backstory very well with a lack of story. Plus, there's the fact the Zelda series is not only pretty damn popular but also it has more games than DKC does. And the cast usually revolves and everyone gets favourites

Zelda and Donkey Kong both deserve new characters, idk why this has become some weird competition lmao

I'm not saying they both don't but I'm not the one saying "Zelda characters are possibly more popular than a character who hasn't been used in a decade?" either

 

[Will]

heavy.. but aerially agile? he uses the side b grab anywhere near the edge and that's a stock, I'm scared, and I feel justified

The only thing that would scare you is that Chad taunt where he just stands upright.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Because the situations are pretty similar and I want to point out the hypocrisy behind these ideals that completely irrelevant one-off characters from one series get prioritized over an irrelevant big bad from another tjay was just as important to his series, if not more for serving the role of a boss for several games.

I could care less if either gets a newcomer or not, as I see the roster as good enough already.